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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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I saw the whole thing unfold right in front of me. It started right before the last 90 corner at the aid station and I thought Jonny was done.


It is going to be the 2nd greatest finish in triathlon history, not sure anything could ever supplant the Julie Moss ironman finish..
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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Jonny was leading and lost it by the aid station before the last turn. One of the volunteers seemed to hold him momentarily and then Alistair and Henri came by. Ali grabbed his brother and Henri kept going

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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [andy12] [ In reply to ]
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andy12 wrote:
BayDad wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
monty wrote:
So did he finish or not?


His brother basically carried him for the last 100-200m and pushed him across the line.
It's pretty darn obvious that Johnny would not have finished the race had his brother not helped him.
As much as they are liked, it's hard to believe its legal to have someone help you like that.
Well according to the officials and the ITU it is as the results stand as is.

Good on them as well - show the world that winning is important but so is sportsmanship.

That said, how much of an arsehole is Murray? Was asked about Jonny and Ali and all he went on about is Mola. Goes to show you can be a world class athlete and arsehole at the same time.

Mola deserves a bit of love too. His world title just got over shadowed. Let Murray celebrate his training partners world title, I say.
I don't dispute Mola didnwhat he had to do, but Murray ignoring the question and ignoring what Ali did etc. to me lacked class. As did his jumping for joy at the end. Sure celebrate with your mate but really do it with class and dignity.

Maybe he's still butt hurt that his relatively unknown countryman has an Olympic medal and he doesn't.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
monty wrote:
So in your mind, sticking an arm out to keep someone from falling off a bike, is no different than a teammate carrying you for a long distance and throwing you over the line??

He did not carry him, he kept him from falling while he was on his own two feet, just like a hand out to hold a biker up from falling while they are coasting on their bike. And what about when someone puts their hand on the back of a guy to push them up to the pace line? See that all the time. Bike racing and ITU, how is that not worse?


No offence at all, but I really think you are reaching here. I get you want to defend them because everyone loves them.
You are seriously telling me that what you see in the below video is no different than preventing a biker from crashing by briefly holding them up? Wow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DheRqd6bJYw

That is the 2nd most amazing finish I've ever seen!
Someone mentioned earlier that JB passed under the banner, and in his discombobulated state thought he'd finished, and stopped running. A volunteer grabbed him, and that's when AB took his arm and HELPED him to the finish.
It's debatable whether a DQ is justified because of the vagueness of the rules.

It made me review the Julie Moss finish, you can't write sports those!

res, non verba
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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No. Not because one happened on a bike and one happened on feet. Because your example isn't even remotely close to the same thing.

A better analogy would be pushing a rider who was incapable of pedaling. A hand-sling is another example that's closer than your analogy.

Think of the TdF. Sometimes a rider gets penalized or disqualified for getting a push, or a hand-sling, holding onto a car, sticky bottle, or similar. And other times they don't.

It depends on circumstances and the frame of mind of the referee in charge.

And based on my history in the sport, I can see it both ways. If the decision didn't affect me, I may see it one way. If it affected me, I may see it another way.

We athletes are selfish like that.

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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We athletes are selfish like that.

I would like to think it is because we are more empathetic to these situations, especially since we have actually been in them, not selfishness. For me, I will call it empathy, you can call it what fits for you..
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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He was incapable of running unassisted.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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What emotion do you feel for the person who would have gotten second in the points standings had Jonny failed to finish?

Do you have any empathy for him?

How about the person who might be standing in third place on the podium? Any empathy there?

The difficulty with this situation is that we will never know if JB would have made it across the line under his own power, nor will we ever know what place he would have finished, assuming he could have made it.

It's cool, man. Having had to make similar decisions in my referee life, I just feel that the situation is a little more nuanced than you do.

I also think your analogy sucked.

But I'm not saying your opinion is wrong.

Why are you so grumpy?

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [georged] [ In reply to ]
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You may be right.

Or you may be wrong.

I think Billy Joel said that. Or something like that.

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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At least it's not the shitstorm that would occur if mola got 6th and got second overall
Last edited by: andy12: Sep 18, 16 22:26
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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As a ref, how would you have called it? Not trying to put you on the spot but it makes for a tough decision.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [andy12] [ In reply to ]
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Have to say the rule needs amendment. Fair play to AB for helping his brother but there is no way JB would have held off Murray without assistance. He could barely run straight. He was done.

The fact that it didn't affect 1st in the overall rankings may have had an effect on the final decision.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I've got to agree, your analogy sucks.

A better analogy would be one athlete sitting on his bike coasting along whilst another athlete puts his hand on his back and physically pushes him around the course. That's basically what happened. How would you feel about that?

I'm British, so obviously I love the Brownlees, but I've got to agree with Jimmy that it sets a dangerous precedent and as per the "General Conduct" rules posted above, it probably should have been a DQ.

Also, that was an interesting point about Jonny thinking the arch was the finish, makes a lot of sense and makes it all the sadder!
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [aw3] [ In reply to ]
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Lead sports story on the BBC Breakfast news this morning; normally a triathlon result would be a footnote at best (if mentioned at all) after lots of talk about football (soccer).

A DQ would have been incredibly harsh, there is no specific rule so it would have come down to interpretation of a generic rule. He crossed the line on his own two feet - just! - so IMHO that's OK.

Anyway what a race, and what a finish!
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [r0bh] [ In reply to ]
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I can understand the argument why there should have been a DQ but when someone suddenly suffers a collapse like that, it is important to remember it is only a sport and somehow I felt what Alistair did transcended triathlon. Others may disagree but I can't see that this ever going to be anything but a rare occurrence, so I don't see it as setting a "dangerous precedent."

Talking about the race itself, I thought it was a brilliant performance. Jonathan knew what he had to do, and he and Alistair were totally committed in the swim. They also hammered on the bike and really put their heart and souls into it. Mola, by contrast, was content to drift along in the pack and never once did a pull at the front, even though he was the one whose title was drifting away. Even on the run, I never sensed he was putting in the same commitment as Jonny (to JB's ultimate detriment, but I don't believe Mola was calculating that this would happen.) Mola, nice guy that he is, is what the Australian cricketers call a "flat track bully" - good when things are in this favour but becomes relatively ordinary otherwise. He won the world championship by 4 points but I don't think it is an achievement that is going to burn bright in the memory.

I have a huge respect for Henri Schoeman both as an athlete and a guy. Alistair was absolutely right that Jonny was the master of his own self-destruction but he didn't play it safe. Chapeau!
Last edited by: FeketeBlob: Sep 19, 16 2:17
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
monty wrote:
So did he finish or not?

His brother basically carried him for the last 100-200m and pushed him across the line.
It's pretty darn obvious that Johnny would not have finished the race had his brother not helped him.
As much as they are liked, it's hard to believe its legal to have someone help you like that.
Well according to the officials and the ITU it is as the results stand as is.

Good on them as well - show the world that winning is important but so is sportsmanship.

That said, how much of an arsehole is Murray? Was asked about Jonny and Ali and all he went on about is Mola. Goes to show you can be a world class athlete and arsehole at the same time.

This was not sportmanship, this was brotherly love. Similarly noble, but should not be allowed in professional racing if manifested like this.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [snaaijert] [ In reply to ]
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Am I correct in that Jonny has finished in front of Mola on 4 occasions this season (Rio, Comuzel, Edmonton, Cape town) and Mola has finished in front of Jonny once (Gold Coast)? Mola gained points from the less competitive races. Exposes the issues with a world champs being decided on points and the potential in equity of races.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I bet Jonny wishes he'd "jogged" it to 4/500m to go then dropped the hammer at the last minute. Two world titles lost to tactical numptiness!
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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the problem is everyone's thinking that this is an "individual event". It's not, it's a mass event, AND it's a race, with all the dynamics that go along with that.

AND, there are races within the race, which go unnoticed here. Richard Varga provides way more "outside assistance" to the Brownlies than AB did here for JB, which supports my first point above.

JimmyRiccitello wrote:
"the ITU officials called it legal because apparently no rule against it."


Regarding the quote above, and generally speaking: in triathlon, if there is no specific rule prohibiting something, it's allowed.


Nevertheless, if the quote is accurate - the decision sets a potentially interesting precedent.

This is a good example of why thought must go into rule decisions and why the rules aren't always black and white. You need to build in some wiggle room, but care should be taken with regard to precedent.


On a semi-related note, you're correct. Monty's analogy is apples to oranges.

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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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You wouldn't be saying this if the boot were on the other foot let's be honest here
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [northern monkey] [ In reply to ]
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To balance what you say both AB and JB have avoided races where conditions will potentially not play in their favour I.e Yokohama, Abu Dhabi etc. This may be down to training schedule.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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It is an individual race in the context of the run. JB had stopped and was carried to the finish. Noble act and inspiring but should have been DQ.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Imao he didnot stop the race officially. Standing by the aid station that volunteer (not a medical) barely touched him and alistair was there...grabbing him already.

And if an athlete chooses to help another athlete without affecting the competition or harming other (3rd.) athletes, then he should do so.
Basically drafting, either on the bike or the swim, is the same...you potentially help another athlete, but don't harm others with your action.

Big respect for alistair, his reaction was awesome, but his finish line interview was even more than that! He is truly an awesome guy and sportsman!
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [kennick] [ In reply to ]
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JB wouldn't have finished at that pace on his own. Literally carrying someone to the finish is not like drafting.
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Re: ITU Discussion Thread [snaaijert] [ In reply to ]
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snaaijert wrote:
BayDad wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
monty wrote:
So did he finish or not?


His brother basically carried him for the last 100-200m and pushed him across the line.
It's pretty darn obvious that Johnny would not have finished the race had his brother not helped him.
As much as they are liked, it's hard to believe its legal to have someone help you like that.
Well according to the officials and the ITU it is as the results stand as is.

Good on them as well - show the world that winning is important but so is sportsmanship.

That said, how much of an arsehole is Murray? Was asked about Jonny and Ali and all he went on about is Mola. Goes to show you can be a world class athlete and arsehole at the same time.


This was not sportmanship, this was brotherly love. Similarly noble, but should not be allowed in professional racing if manifested like this.

Let me just say WTS is thrilled with that highlight reel, this is an absolute classic sports moment. This may even elapse Gwen winning gold in Rio in terms of promoting their race brand in a competitive business (yes I know Rio was not exactly a WTS branded event). This was the kind of drama and sportsmanship youngsters will see on SportsCenter and decide that's the sport they want to do.

Alistair did the right thing and I'm sure it made his parents proud.

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