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Any bike vs. Any other bike...
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I see so many posts on here that attempt to compare one bike to another.

I do understand that thinking... or maybe I don't. What I think is going on here is a comparison that is something like, "Bike A is $2000 and has a Dura-Ace front and rear derailleur, Visiontech, etc and Bike B has Ultegra front and rear derailleur, Profile, etc and is $2300. Which should I buy?"

Let me make these suggestions:

If you buy into the belief that the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning then I propose you stop making these comparisons between bikes and adopt a different selection process:
  1. Use the Slowtwitch dealer locator to find a bike fitter.
  2. Contact the fitter and get some sense of your degree of trust in them There are alot of very good, experienced fitters out there and a lot of new fitters who have jumped on the bike fit bandwagon ver the last three years and really need some additional experience and education. Get a sense of which one you are dealing with.
  3. When you find a fitter you trust (because they have produced repeatable, favorable, tangible results for other consumers) then schedule a fitting.
  4. Consult with the fitter about which bikes are optimal for your body dimensions. This is usually the part of the thread where a person chimes in, "Yeah, but with the right stem, seatpost and few headset spacers you can make anything fit." You know what? That is true. You can "make" anything fit. However, if your real goal is to find the optimal fit then forcing the fit by using a too-short stem, 4 cm of spacers and a zero setback post with a saddle tettering off the front of the rails is really less than optimal. Find the bike with the correct head tube height, the best top tube length and the optimal seat tube angle- or, more correctly, let your fitter find it for you.
  5. Then, follow your fitters recommendation.


Now, this may not have the curb appeal, emotional involvement of picking a bike but there's the thing:

Six months after you have taken delivery on the bike and you are out on a ride you'll have this experience where you realize, "Wow... this thing is like a part me. It feels like it isn't even there..." That is the impression that will leave you with the most rewarding buying and ownership experience in the long term.

I see people do "research" when buying a bike, try to find answers to unanswerable questions and navigate a convoluted and conflicted set of opinions and just spin off into indecision. That is not a rewarding buying experience or shopping experience and rarely yeilds truly optimal results.

A big part of the reason people do this is cynicism about the parties selling tri bikes. There seems to be the prevalent attitude that a given LBS or bike fitter may have an association with a given brand that is largely founded in a mercinary motive. In other words, the guy is "pushing" one bike or brand over another. No question, those alliance exist. The bottom line is, can you/do you trust the fitter to deliver on the promise of optimizing your fit and thusly, your ownership experience?

One of the smartest things Dan Empfield (founder of this website and forum, arguably inventor of the triathlon bike) ever said was something t the effect of (paraphrasing) "Shop for a bike shop rather than a bike" I buy that 100%. To it I will add, "The single most important determining factor in your ownership experience is fit and positioning."

Compare shops and dimensions, not bikes.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

I think you should go with a Cervelo P3c.

JohnA
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting Tom. I couldn't agree more


Paul "Speedy" Gonsalves
http://www.rollingthundercanada.com
RollingThunderCanada

Canadian distributor for HED Cycling, Blue Competition, Akona Biospeed & Aerus Composites


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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, those look cool, but I was doing some research on the Internet and these guys on this forum said.....

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for this thread, Tom. I've been watching these threads and thinking the same as you on them. I've wanted to post a similar thread to this for some time...but figured folks would just think "geez, what an asshole..." Of course my language might have been a bit more blunt. Not so much 'asshole' coming from you...
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, and it's red. I like red. Red is fast. ;-)
Last edited by: Airflo: Feb 16, 06 11:07
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, I'm in bodyboard retail and see the exact same thing. People call me or come in here and ask "which is the best brand?", and I always tell them, "they all use the same materials and make the board the same way. you have to buy based on three things: The size/shape of the board and if that works for your riding style and body type/size, your price range, and the materials (low end, middle range, high-end). That's it. So many people focus on the "brand" when they might get a board that's better for them from a brand they might not be familiar with. it's a common thing in retail and as you know, brands rely on consumers to be brand-loyal whether it's warranted or not.

------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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If you buy into the belief that the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning then I propose you stop making these comparisons between bikes and adopt a different selection process:

That's probably good advice, in general. Or at least it was good advice yesterday. For tomorrow, I'm not too sure.

Look at the latest "bike vs bike" comparison in here- BMC Time Machine vs Guru Chrono, right? You can get both of those in whatever geometry/frame specs you want.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Good points... ain't gonna happen, though.

While you'd like that "the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning", from just looking at what people ride and what they post about, you know that it's "the curb appeal, emotional involvement of picking a bike".

The same goes for many other choices in life... people are people.

___________________________________



http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/




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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, I completely agree with the "Shop for a bike shop rather than a bike" part. But there are some other factors to keep in mind, in my opinion. And I say this as someone from the opposite spectrum as you - you probably sell more bikes on a good day than I'll ride in a lifetimem but when I buy a bike I expect to ride it for a long, long time. So I don't want to mess anything up.

-You're not only shopping for a bike shop, you're also shopping for a bike company. Are they good and prompt in dealing with warranty issues? Have they consistenly provided a good product? Do they support the community? Yes, a good LBS should only deal with good manufacturers, but if you move cities, it could be btwn you and the bike company.

-Where's the money going? Dan said something about this in his review of the 06 bikes - that this is the 'year of the frame' but that in years past it was all about components. It seems to me that in any year you could go by the best spec-ed bike, or the one with a more expensive frame but maybe a step down on components.

-Has a particular model had any significant problems? Yes, this is getting into the trial-by-internet issue, but sometimes companies will put out models that don't work at first, but get better over time. (Like that one you review on your webpage, btw).



Just some thoughts.
-Charles
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"Bike A is $2000 and has a Dura-Ace front and rear derailleur, Visiontech, etc and Bike B has Ultegra front and rear derailleur, Profile, etc and is $2300. Which should I buy?"




Good to see that you pointed out the bike parts method that many people use to choose a bike. I've fallen into this trap myself in the past, choosing a bike based on the components, rather than the fit. Of course, this is very unwise, but it is also something the bike companies fully embrace (look at this new bike with full dura-ace for only x dollars, etc.). It would be better, in my opinion, if the frame and components were bought separately, so that what "jewelry" a certain bike has doesn't unduly influence a buyer.

Chris

--
"I do not hurt on the bike, I punish."
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [urbanrider] [ In reply to ]
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These are each excellent points and considerations.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Let's say you go through that process and the fitter sets you up on a 61" P2C with a 90 stem w/2cm spacers and your 6'0" with ~33 inseam.

Does one still trust the fitter?

Is a 90 stem a compromise?
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [hank rearden] [ In reply to ]
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nah, get a c-dale, thats what faris rides
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"a zero setback post with a saddle tettering off the front of the rails is really less than optimal"

If bike companies optimized their geometry for riding at 80 degrees this wouldn't be an issue. It's only when companies half-ass their commitment to a fit and riding style that these "adjustments" become necessary.

Nobody in the triathlon bike industry has totally commited themselves to the steep and low triathlon bike and fit. Until they do I'm not trusting them. I'll head to eBay and Slowtwitch instead.
Last edited by: caleb: Feb 16, 06 13:09
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [caleb] [ In reply to ]
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"Nobody in the triathlon bike industry has totally commited themselves to the steep and low triathlon bike and fit."

78 Degree Seattube Angle (forward facing seatpost position) Size Wheel Size Head Tube Angle BB Drop Top Tube Head Tube Length Front Center Rear Center Stand Over Height Stack Reach 48 650c 72° 43 490 110 568 368 716 461 389 51 700c 72.5° 60 510 90 586 380 746 482 405 54 700c 72.5° 60 530 105 609 380 762 498 419 56 700c 72.5° 60 545 125 626 380 780 516 433 58 700c 72.5° 60 560 145 643 380 799 535 445 61 700c 72.5° 60 574 175 659 380 828 564 454

Those are some pretty low head tubes, and the chain stay lengths on this bike (this is the gemoetry chart for a Cervelo P3C) do enable the rider to use the bike with the saddle at 81 degrees.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [hank rearden] [ In reply to ]
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If you have to ask if you truat your bike fitter, then you don't. The thing is, he may be a right.

Perhaps a better question may be, "Who do you think knows more about bike fit- you or your bike fitter?"

There may be circumstances where the approach you described is absolutely the best approach, there may be similar but different circumstances where that same appraoch may be less than optimal.

It's an individual set of circumstances contingent on a number of variables.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Those are some pretty low head tubes, and the chain stay lengths on this bike (this is the gemoetry chart for a Cervelo P3C) do enable the rider to use the bike with the saddle at 81 degrees.

My point lies in the "enable the rider to use" admission. Not even Cervelo is willing to say, "if you're riding this bike, here's how to ride it."

I can ride my Specialized road bike with a Fast Forward seatpost and aerobars; I can also ride my Yaqui with drops and a layback post. If I did either of these things I deserve to crash since neither bike is designed to handle with this weight distribution.

Why does Cervelo think we're dumb enough to believe that a single bike is OPTIMAL anywhere between 74 and 82 degrees and with a variation of 10cm worth of stack height?

Specificity of purpose leads to excellence. There is an insufficent degree of specificity in triathlon geometry right now to make me dig into my pocket to pay either a fitter or a mass bike manufacturer.
Last edited by: caleb: Feb 16, 06 14:08
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
  1. Use the Slowtwitch dealer locator to find a bike fitter.
  2. Contact the fitter and get some sense of your degree of trust in them


The problem is that you guys are SO RARE. As nice as you are about other bike shops, surely you realize what it means that people fly to Michigan to shop at bikesport. In my experience, not just some but MOST bike shops are not only ignorant about tri bike fit, they're even ignorant about road bike fit, and often even ignorant about their own product line. I'm not a bike fanatic, so I find it extremely unprofessional when a guy on the sales floor of the bike shops starts blowing smoke that's so obvious even I can tell he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I can tell story after story. I have either shopped, or accompanied friends shopping, at no less than five shops in philly, and not a single one even offered to put the customer on a trainer and have a look at fit and position. I used to be dumb enough to accept this level of service; I didn't know what the options were. I ask if we can change out a stem and hear things like, "well, the designers at Trek have really calculated what the best stem size for this bike is, so we really suggest that everyone try and ride it for a few weeks with the stem it comes with. If you still feel uncomfortable, of course you can come back and we can order a new one for you."

Can I put it on the trainer? I ask. "Well, rather than go to all that trouble, let's just have you lean up against the counter and sit on it. Oh yeah, you look fine."

How about when I come in on an old specialized allez pro that I'm building up, looking to buy a stem: How tall are you? He asks. I'm five ten, I say. Oh, my, you really shouldn't be on a 52cm bike, he says, measuring tape stretched from my bottom bracket to the intersection of my top and seat tubes. Well, say I, funny things happen when you try and measure the seat tube on a compact geometry bike. Again, i'm not a bike snob; I don't care if regular people don't know a tri bike from a tricycle. But not somebody who's trying to earn my trust in a bike shop.

As far as I know, there's only one shop in Philly that's serious about fitting, and though as far as I know his fitting may be great, I was very disappointed in service I got from that shop on a minor repair, so was a bit turned off by them. And they seemed a bit, well, snobby, as if they didn't want to give me A-level service until I came in to drop 3 large on a bike. Probably a good business plan, but not for me.

All that to say, I feel like a lonely single person longing to be married--I'd love to fall in love with a LBS, but around here they're all heartbreakers. Sure, there's probably someone within 150 miles, but if I'm going to deal with a LBS, I want one I can get to without making a day of it.
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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quote
  1. Consult with the fitter about which bikes are optimal for your body dimensions. This is usually the part of the thread where a person chimes in, "Yeah, but with the right stem, seatpost and few headset spacers you can make anything fit." You know what? That is true. You can "make" anything fit. However, if your real goal is to find the optimal fit then forcing the fit by using a too-short stem, 4 cm of spacers and a zero setback post with a saddle tettering off the front of the rails is really less than optimal. Find the bike with the correct head tube height, the best top tube length and the optimal seat tube angle- or, more correctly, let your fitter find it for you.


tom...what is wrong with playing with spacer, steam lenght and seatpost.... to be honest, i been on so many bike in the past years and never found one that didnt fit me. I race in every triathlon format and never had a handling problem and was able to performe at decent level. So what is optimal??? what s the difference between optimal and not optimal??? would i ride slower because of that????

when i was talking with DR Tommy about changing for a new bike this season, the main point we talk about was BONDING>>>> feel special about a bike and ride something you really are excited about....that is i think the most important factor for me to make me go fast.... we didnt really talk too much about fitting as obviously, i have a set position and i think i can reproduce it on almost any bike in the industry....just have to pick the right frame size..... so now, i m on a cervelo p3 with 3cm spacer in front and a 8cm steam and a rearward seat position..... i dont want to be on any other bike because i love this one....and i can also fit on a p3 carbon 51 54 or 56.....rode each of them with shorter steam or longer and it was working great!!!

what m i missing???

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [caleb] [ In reply to ]
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Why does Cervelo think we're dumb enough to believe that a single bike is OPTIMAL anywhere between 74 and 82 degrees and with a variation of 10cm worth of stack height?

Because most riders don't know any better. Though you have to be careful about attacking the holy cow here. I'm been trashed before for that opinion, once by the designer himself. Tom said you can ride a Cervelo at 81 degrees and he is right; I have done it and it was a nightmare to steer. That was a P2 with a 78 degree seat tube.

I suspect the problem is that some riders--inexperienced ones make up a large portion of the tri population--just don't know better. I had given up find a bike I could fit well on until I spoke with Ves. I just assumed I would have to make do with something that I "made" fit. I knew better though, because I had ridden my road bike for years and could eat lunch, change jackets, or just stretch my back as I rode down the road no-hands with nary a worry. Now that I have the right tri bike, I can do it again, even with a 81 degree seat tube and the seat pushed forward a little.

Chad
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Dang it Tom, you've got it all wrong.
Who cares how a bike fits, if it looks kick ass....then that is all that matters.
Jeez.

(Tongue firmly inserted in cheek)
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Bike "fit" is anything but a hard science, with no standards, and as seen with various pros and "fitters" it's very subjective, and to some extent rider-dependent.

Considering that... I don't think you'll ever be able to overcome the emotional quotient involved in choosing a bike by it's aesthetics.
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I think most people are asking which bike gives more bang for your buck. There certainly are performance differences...pro teams don't spend small fortunes developping new time trial frames for nothing. You would be hard pressed to convince me that a larged diameter tubing aluminum bike (like the cyclocross bike on which I race) is as aero as p3 or p3c. On the other hand most of us would never notice the difference between the truly pro-level bikes. I value your opinion and someday I'd love to drive over from lansing and be fit by you but you have to admit there is at least some merit in comparing one bike to another, especially in the case where either fall within an acceptable fit range.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

http://www.aiatriathlon.com
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Re: Any bike vs. Any other bike... [dtreeps] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with that. Certainly.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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