Tom,

I think that you are right about the proper fitting bike and all, but I think that what you are missing about these posts is the 'school boy factor'.

We are not really asking which bike is better for us, we are asking the equivelent of "Do you thik that Mighty Mouse can Kick Superman's ass?" or "Which is faster, a Hyabusa or a Ferrari 435?" the answer is not important, we just like to argue over the different opionions.

BTW the answers are A: Mighty mouse would totally Kick Superman's Ass! and (for you Tom) The skill of the Rider/Driver and layout/conditions of the race would have the biggest influence on performanceand outcome.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

"If you buy into the belief that the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning then I propose you stop making these comparisons between bikes and adopt a different selection process: "

I buy into the belief that fitness, power output and pedaling dynamics are the critical factors in bicycle performance. Bicycle fit can have a major influence on those things, but I'd rather have sub-optimal fit than sub-optimal fitness and lousy pedaling dynamics. Most of the triathletes I see have very diverse ways of sitting their bikes. Some are low, some are not so low. Some are steep, some are not so steep. Some look like their frames are too large for them. Some look like their frames are too small for them. What separates the ones who are fast from the ones who are slow are fitness and knowing how to spin the pedals efficiently.

"Compare shops and dimensions, not bikes."

In the real world, we don't all live in major markets. We don't all have a variety of bike shops within a practical traveling distance. Even when we do, there are too few who offer a level of expertise that exceeds anything a rider with several years of experience won't already have gleened more-or-less by osmosis.

I've got a friend I do some training with who is on his fourth bike from what is considered the premier triathlon shop in this area. Three of the bikes have been tri bikes and one is a road bike. I've tried to hide my incredulity as I've asked the guy each time if he had his new bike "professionaly fitted" and he tells me "yes, I worked really closely with (so and so)." I try to politely suggest some things when, what I really want to say is, "so and so doesn't know his ass from first base!"

Then there are the riders who buy into all this, "gotta have a pro fitting" stuff to the point that it becomes an excuse. "I didn't do so well on that 10-mile time trial 'cuz I don't have my bike dialed in." And I want to say, "that's a load of crap. Your bike is fine. You need to quit obsessing over it and RIDE IT!"

Anyway, I'm with JohnnyO on this. There's an essence to bike fit. It's not hard to gleen with a little research and a little experience. You've gotta know how to get it in the ballpark. But it's not rocket science. Once you're in the ballpark, the name of the game is adaptation.

Bob C.

That is probably the most incorrect premise that I have read.

First, I guarantee you that the correlation coefficient between performance which I define as fastest finish time and bike fit isn't nearly as close as training time is, and probably more correlated with training time at lactic threshold.

In fact I would wager that training then genetics probably are larger factors than bike fit and positioning.

Also what is optimal fit? How do you define it? Is it the position that gives the lowest CdA. The position that is most comfortable? The position that produces the most power? Allows better handling? Steeper?

How do you go about finding the optimal position? I don't suppose you have a wind tunnel in your store, moreover even going from a slack to more steep position will require some adaptation time. How do you fit a person today knowing that in 3 months his ability to hold a steeper position will improve. Do you fit him with his current preference regarding comfort? or your estimate of his ability to tolerate the position after an adapation phase?

How do you account for professionals who move from one bike to another all with different specs in seat tube angle, tob tube length, etc., yet their performances are remarkably the same?

This reminds me quite a bit of my lacrosse-playing days.

There was always at least one kid on the team convinced the problem was his stick. Occasionally, he was right - because there [i]was[/i] a real problem, the equivalent of putting aerobars on a 'cross frame that was 2 sizes too big. Some things won't work no matter how motivated you are.

The thing is, 95% of the time it was the player. A new stick didn't help. Fancy new technology didn't cure a mediocre skill set. A new pocket didn't stop the ball from flying out when he took a hit.

Discussion of bikes around here sounds a lot like that. Chances are good that your bike is fine. Sure, it could be more aerodynamic - but so could the person riding it. It could be made out of lighter, stiffer, shinier material.. and you could train more. A decent lacrosse player figures out what works for him, and can play with a $20 stick or a $250 stick. The same is true of bikes. With the right engine, you can win on anything that fits within a very wide tolerance.

Ah, sure signs of spring. 1st there’s ground hog day then shortly afterwards Tom hits us hard with his over-the-top marketing of BikesportMichigan...Go get fit now and then sign up for Ironman University. Summer will be here before you know it.

After doing a quick perusal of 3 manufacturers I found that the difference between the similarly sized frames are around 5-10MM in most measurements. My question, nad maybe an ignorant one, could not any of these bikes be fit fairly easily?

You obviously have a better grasp on the differences between frames than I, but unless some manufactures are WAY different I have a hard time seeing how at least one frame size would not fit from any manufacturer. Otherwise you're in a situation where no manufacturer will fit you.

~Matt

"it's not rocket science. Once you're in the ballpark, the name of the game is adaptation."

Exactly. What is bike fit?

Read carefully please:

BIKE FIT IS NO MORE THAN THE MATING OF A MACHINE THAT HAS A DEGREE OF ADJUSTABILITY AND A HUMAN BODY THAT HAS A DEGREE OF ADAPTATION. THERE IS A DEGREE OF LEEWAY BETWEEN THESE.

I agree with psycholist - get in the ballpark and your body will adapt.

There have been a lot of good points made in this link, including Tom's initial discourse. Some of the comments are getting pretty harsh and laden with sarcasm. A good bike shop with fitter is the number one goal in getting a new bike. Unfortunately, especially with respect to Tri bikes, it can be quite difficult to find that shop within easy driving distance for many of us.

Threads like this always make me chuckle. It really is the beauty of an open, public forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I really think that's why we must all define our own truth. So many things come down to a question of values, or rather, what you place value on. It is pretty clear what Tom places a high value on- not just "fitting" a bicycle, but the bicycle fitting you. His type-A personality loves to perfect and *optimize*. The bike is clean, in perfect working order, fits perfectly, has the right parts spec, etc. The next guy may put a higher value on scientific, ultra-analyzed training with powermeters, strict nutrition, etc. Then there is another guy who is a total type-B and just trains all day. He/she doesn't worry about what they would consider to be unneccessary peripherals and details (which, coincidentally are what the other guys place huge value on). All the while each of these people is trying to convince the others that they're wrong. I love it.

Tom,



Even if there was a thread where between a P3SL and a Lucero, most people picked the Lucero, you don't have to panic. Maybe you should start selling QR.

You've been indoctrinated well.

I don't doubt that if I had Tom and Bikesportmichigan as my LBS I'd be a better rider for it. But I don't. So I adapt. ;-)

Bob C.

I base my opinions on bike fit on my 20+ years working as a chiropractor. I see patients from day to day with constant changing flexibility/mobility in their bodies. I have been observing this for over two decades. I've used measuring devices that will demonstrate that mobility/flexibility can vary from day to day.

Everybody can be more flexible or have better joint mobility one day compared to the next.

Even if bike fitters could get that perfect fit on Monday(which I'm skeptical), a tighter hamstring after the Tuesday long run would change the "perfect fit".

Trying to find the perfect fit is putting the cart before the horse. Ball park the fit as close to "optimum" for that individual as possible, the body will adapt to it. Raising/lowering the seat 2mm isn't going to make a difference. Or if it does, it may be different tomorrow.

What I'm saying is bike fit isn't as precise a "science" as some would have you believe.

Blasphamy! Actually, very true.

Unless you get a Yaqui:

C: Ves, can you put Vision aerobars on my bike?

V: No.

C: Why not?

V: Because the front end of your frame is built for medium Syntace C2's.

Has your LBS ever denied you an aerobar upgrade because the front end of your bike wasn't built for it?

I didn't think so. If the bike isn't built for you, fit is basically a Wild Ass Guess billed at $250/session by a guy with no initials behind his name.

"fit is basically a Wild Ass Guess billed at $250/session by a guy with no initials behind his name. "



Is that really the big-city rate for a fitting? That's histerical! I'm glad I'm not a big-city boy. I wonder if the big-city fitting boys practice saying, "it'll cost you $250/session" in the mirror until they can do it without breaking out laughing?

I've paid plenty of stupid tax in my life, but ... sheesh!

Bob C.

huh?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Awesome. That's Ves to a T. :)

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

The other way to do it is to find a BUILDER that you trust, and let him help you make the right decisions.

I'm very lucky to live in a city with several good to great bike shops (I can easily think of 3 or 4). However the chances of me buying an off the rack bike from any of them is quite slender - at least for myself. I'll but parts, helmets, and service from them, wheels, food, and hang out if I ever find the time - but my bikes will (for the most part) come from small custom builders.

Having said that, I did buy a Cramerotti track frame a few months back, and a complete roadie about a year and a half ago. Oh yeah - I scored that sweet chopper, too. But the fit ain't perfect on that one. ;-)

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

I like the Eddy Merckx approach...

Constantly concerned with the equipment and fit...

Train all day...

Win.

Lots.

We've seen a lot of these "Any bike vs. any other bike" posts lately so it seemed like time to resurrect this:

I see so many posts on here that attempt to compare one bike to another.

I do understand that thinking... or maybe I don't. What I think is going on here is a comparison that is something like, "Bike A is $2000 and has a Dura-Ace front and rear derailleur, Visiontech, etc and Bike B has Ultegra front and rear derailleur, Profile, etc and is $2300. Which should I buy?"

Let me make these suggestions:

If you buy into the belief that the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning then I propose you stop making these comparisons between bikes and adopt a different selection process:

1. Use the Slowtwitch dealer locator to find a bike fitter.
2. Contact the fitter and get some sense of your degree of trust in them There are alot of very good, experienced fitters out there and a lot of new fitters who have jumped on the bike fit bandwagon ver the last three years and really need some additional experience and education. Get a sense of which one you are dealing with.
3. When you find a fitter you trust (because they have produced repeatable, favorable, tangible results for other consumers) then schedule a fitting.
4. Consult with the fitter about which bikes are optimal for your body dimensions. This is usually the part of the thread where a person chimes in, "Yeah, but with the right stem, seatpost and few headset spacers you can make anything fit." You know what? That is true. You can "make" anything fit. However, if your real goal is to find the optimal fit then forcing the fit by using a too-short stem, 4 cm of spacers and a zero setback post with a saddle tettering off the front of the rails is really less than optimal. Find the bike with the correct head tube height, the best top tube length and the optimal seat tube angle- or, more correctly, let your fitter find it for you.
5. Then, follow your fitters recommendation.

Now, this may not have the curb appeal, emotional involvement of picking a bike but there's the thing:

Six months after you have taken delivery on the bike and you are out on a ride you'll have this experience where you realize, "Wow... this thing is like a part me. It feels like it isn't even there..." That is the impression that will leave you with the most rewarding buying and ownership experience in the long term.

I see people do "research" when buying a bike, try to find answers to unanswerable questions and navigate a convoluted and conflicted set of opinions and just spin off into indecision. That is not a rewarding buying experience or shopping experience and rarely yeilds truly optimal results.

A big part of the reason people do this is cynicism about the parties selling tri bikes. There seems to be the prevalent attitude that a given LBS or bike fitter may have an association with a given brand that is largely founded in a mercinary motive. In other words, the guy is "pushing" one bike or brand over another. No question, those alliance exist. The bottom line is, can you/do you trust the fitter to deliver on the promise of optimizing your fit and thusly, your ownership experience?

One of the smartest things Dan Empfield (founder of this website and forum, arguably inventor of the triathlon bike) ever said was something t the effect of (paraphrasing) "Shop for a bike shop rather than a bike" I buy that 100%. To it I will add, "The single most important determining factor in your ownership experience is fit and positioning."

Compare shops and dimensions, not bikes.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"the single largest factor influencing bicycle performance is bicycle fit and positioning"

Sure, but I bet the two main factors in influencing a bicycle buying decision is looks and name brand recognition. Basically, people are really asking: Of the two bikes I've already decided I'd consider owning (before fitting and positioning), which one is better? You can try to correct this behavior, but you're working against an entire industry with marketing departments hell bent on selling bikes based on those two criteria.

Do not make the incorrect assumption that humans are rational.

True.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I suggested a similar mindset in this:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/...orials/0000100.shtml

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Bob (and Jonnyo):

Very nicely put. Must say that I agree and am in the same camp as the two of you.

Ric