Clearly your body is telling you to "knock it off!" Good for you for listening to it.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

I just came across this site (and by extension this contest), and was wondering what the rules are for joining now, but entering runs I've done since Dec 15?

Assuming I can even enter past data, it would be a real struggle for me to reach even the bronze level as I typically only run 3 to 4 times a week, though always more than 30 minutes.

I'm sure this has been answered, but the thread is very long and my search terms are pretty generic ...

Go to page one of this thread. All the rules are posted there.
Welcome aboard!

Damn, you are right. I always get that mixed up. I won't be able to run at that time ... it is Australia day and I am at a Canadian Ski Resort. 75% of my stafff will be drunk by 830 AM.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

I think I can clarify where I was coming from and perhaps where Scot is too. Running short doubles multiple times per week on top of exclusively running short runs (say 8-10 times 30ish minutes) really does not provide the same fitness benefit of say 6-7 runs of which at least 2-3 are somewhat longer (even though overall volume might be identical)

Guys, don't forget that the first 10-20 minutes of each run (depending on how tight or tired you are) will typically be much lower quality than the next 15-20 minutes because the first while you are just warming up and getting up to speed (I view this period as no more useful than showering and changing...something you have to get through to get to the meat of the run). For me, personally the best quality in pretty well all my runs can be achieved between 20 and 60 minutes into the run...after that, typically the quality drops off and it becomes more of a moderate to long run.

I remember when Steve Jones, a British RAF airplane mechanic was tearing up the marathon circuit in the 80's....2:07 guy.... The guy had enough time at lunch time to whip off his 10 mile run and get back to work in 60 minutes (you are reading this correctly...he was a world class marathoner than could run day in and day out at 12+ mph). He could get through his warmup and then crank off some solid quality all in an hour.

Guys, you will note that the points field now includes your points accumulated from all sports that you enter into the ST log during the period of the run challenge. Slowman and Rappstar instituted this. I think it gives a view into the overall training load that an athlete in the challenge might be accumulating outside of running, which is not such a bad thing. I'll let Slowman convert the official points you get per mile in each sport.

Dev

Dev,
That is exactly what I was getting at. I know the purpose of this challenge is to get a few extra runs in. Doubles will do that. I just know that from my 40 years experience of running, racing, and coaching that results take time. The extra runs should be the addition to the program not the program. I am looking at the numbers and see a lot of runs without the mileage. Guys like Joe O and some of the others need the doubles but if you are doing 30 mpw you would be better served by 5-6 runs and do the doubles as a swim or ride. You will still get the general aerobic benefit without the wear and tear on your body. There is a place for the 30 minute run but I would never let my kids run doubles just to be a training log hero. My personal goal for my running is to stay healthy and injury free and while my mileage is low at 35 mpw I run at a quicker tempo and still keep my heart rate at the 70-75% mark at 7:20 pace. My early season goal is a fast Olympic distance race and a 70,3 in late summer so I keep the pace a bit higher and mileage lower. When I ran doubles I ran 100-115 mpw and it was still at a quicker pace. One of the reasons I race triathlons is I love to train and stay injury free. I have a 20 mile a day habit with a 10 mile a day body.
Like Dev, I was trying to relay the message to stretch the program for the benefits and not just replace a poor program of 3 days a week with a 10 run a week program for the same mileage.

2 x 10 miles is not the same as 2 x minutes. All things being equal, the closer you stress yourself to your breaking point (without going past it), the more you will get out of your training.

How could you be able to do 2 x 10 mile and not do 1 x 17 mile? If anything 2 x 10 seems worse.

This is a running challenge, who cares what other training you are doing? Why don't we add points for weight training then and cross country skiing too? Keep this simple. The pace was more interesting. I really enjoyed seeing the variety of paces (who runs long and slow, who runs short and fast, who is in the middle). It was also nice to track personal progress as your own pace dropped (I did a 10 mile marathon pace run this week and it dropped my pace for the whole challenge by 2 seconds, kind of neat).

Make a separate points challenge and leave the 3 individual sport challenges as they are.

The very reason that we do long runs is the danger of them. We are trying to teach ourselves to run beyond that fatigue barrier, and, in the very long runs, beyond that glycogen barrier. But it is in those fatigued miles that form suffers. That overuse injuries are most stressed. Miles 10-15 or 10-17 are far harder on the joints, tendons, etc than miles 1-10.

And so in those time when I have been fighting off such injuries, I found that simply doing more miles (or frankly even the same miles) but breaking them up into two runs allowed me to avoid those miles that would knock me out of comission for a couple of days. The very next day I could get up and do another 10. Now admittedly I had no long run, but for marathon performance, I have found from hard won experience that weekly mileage trumps long runs every time.

I have the DVD of Jonesy's Chicago 2:07. It is an amazing race to watch. He leaves the hired race rabbit (a poor guy named Carl Thackery) after two miles, because the guy was running too slowly for him. I still have my copy of the Runner magazine with the classic caption:

"Carl Thackery: The World's least successful rabbit"

Bummer for me. Every cycling mile I am doing is on a computrainer right now which means zero. I am only recording time for cycling.

Oh well. Puts me in my place.

I am sorry but the fact that XC Ski is now a quantifiable point adding activity says all that needs to be said about who is taking this challenge a little too seriously :P

But in all seriousness, I think the real winners of this challenge is ANYONE who steps up, challenges themselves and runs more than they would have without it. The pissing and moaning about doubles versus longer singles don't mean shit if you are injured. Do what works for you, and let your race results speak for themselves. If you PR or kick ass, you did it right. If your times go up, then it is time to rethink the strat.

I don't think it is any coincident that my Achilles acted up the 1st week I threw in some long runs. It is just the nature of the beast, but the difference is now after a few days off and RICE'ing it up, I am cranking out longer runs and my legs feel fantastic. No matter if Dev and I disagree on doubles, I thank him for getting this thing going. It has been a success for me as I compare my run totals from last years Vineman run-up to this years CDA so far.

Sub-3:30 or death at CDA!

Oh and the points total are not for all sports. If I look at the different challenges I have different point totals, so their must be some kind of activity association that is unique to each challenge.

The pace was more interesting. I really enjoyed seeing the variety of paces (who runs long and slow, who runs short and fast, who is in the middle). It was also nice to track personal progress as your own pace dropped

Yep. Me too. Sure, I can figure pace, but it was nice to have it right there to compare and contrast with everyone else. Also, in the last workout column, why remove the time from the workout?

"This total points thing is bogus. This is a RUN challenge. If we are going to make it a total exercise points challenge, start a new challenge. Geesh. "

Or they could give credit for watching TV, sleeping, and posting on ST as well...

Next addition will be bonus points for hours spent XC skiing by residents of Ontario. This will of course be Dan's idea...

Chalk up today as one of those days I never would have considered doing if it weren't for the challenge. Run commute, beginning at 0500 with ambient temperature -13 deg. F. Only way I could have been more bundled up is if I'd worn my quilted coveralls. 4.4 miles, with the middle part on a failrly exposed ridge between a lake and the ocean. Had to pull down my facemask after the first two miles - getting too ice clogged to breathe through anymore.

Fortunately, the first half of the run trends uphill, so that was good for getting up to temperature. That, and encountering a couple of drunks a few blocks into the run - one of them was looking to start some trouble, but the other one didn't want to. Good thing, I guess - if they had, then I would have just had to do pictures on their knees later. (My general plan for situations like this is to kick or step on knees.) Got my heart rate up a little, anyway.

Anyway, will be taking the long route home, in the dark (again), probably with more wind. Want to do a little better than my planned 40 miles for the week. So if you all see "6.0 miles" listed as my most recent run tonight, that means that I haven't frozen to death in a snowbank or been taken out by more drunks.

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Over 4.5 years bike crash free.

Triyoda, calm down. I actually had nothing to do with the points column. It's slowman's training log and the challenge feature is generic and meant to support a variety of sports. The points feature is based on his own points scoring system that he has used for 20 something years to calculate overall training load (of sorts). Finally, this is a triathlon board, so yes, it is interesting to see what people are doing on top of running only, so if you want running only, feel free to sign up for something on letsrun.com....for now, you are stuck with multisport.

Personally, I prefer the pace column cause to some extent (chasing the spreadsheet), it forced me to run at my max aerobic effort whenever I could...that being said, it is probably better for me to be aware of aerobic points and make my quality runs count (hills, tempo, track) than to be worrying too much about pace and then let the pace fall where it does on a given day.

Dev

Guys, Dan actually ran a Slowtwitch virtual camp in 2004 in which he used this points scoring system. Please relax and direct your comment to him. As I said, I had nothing to do with the addition of the points column. Dan has added it as a generic challenge/log feature.

"this is a triathlon board, so yes, it is interesting to see what people are doing on top of running only"

x2

Congrats on a great xc-skiing race yesterday in what seemed like tough conditions - impressive!

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Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

The points are based on what dates given challenges start and end. You should have more for the run challenge, cause it started 16 days before the swim challenge, but the point contribution from a 10 mile run should be 40 points to all challenges.

The race was somewhat horrible, in that is was minus 22 with 30 kph wind and the snow was slower than racing on sandpaper...it was a struggle to stay warm and Ialternated between going at race speed and then slowing down to make sure all parts were on my body....it was only 36K (3x12K) and lots of drop outs after 2 loops, which moved me up the board....I croaked on loop 3 with 7 K to go and let the 4th place guy in my age group catch me and then he drafted me for 2K and outsprinted me for 3rd...I ended up 4th in 40-49 and 12th overall but in a relative pathetic time of 2:19 (barely 4 min per K). At least Chuck Perrault who is always sub 4 hour half Ironman only beat me by 5 minutes...I did not realize that I was skiing with him on loop 2!

I was watching running on TV can I get some points for that. LOL
"Hell no", this is for running. You guys are too type "a" for me. Lighten up a little, life is short. Does everything I do have to be perfect in order to improve my times? No, not for me, I actually have fun while I'm training and enjoy it most of the time. Where does somebody that can run 60 times in 44 days fit in the other people in their life. Sorry but I have other people in my life besides me.
Go have a baloney sandwich. ( I mean a tofu on 7 grain bread ) I'm going out for a 30 minute run.

"Does everything I do have to be perfect in order to improve my times? No, not for me, I actually have fun while I'm training and enjoy it most of the time"

WTF?? - I say ban him.

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Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

I stand corrected, 65 times in 41 days, good Lord!