How can there be so many smart people posting on a forum without any of them answering the OP's actual question in real, practical, and understandable terms?!

If you are interested in learning more about the metabolism of lactate (from our point of view) and why it is key to measure for training and an optimal performance, send me an email with your address and I will send you the CD we have produced on this. Our email is available at my profile if you click my name on the left. I also will send you a pdf of the Gladden article you mentioned above. He is one of the best researchers in the US on exercise metabolism. If you do send an email, make sure you put the word lactate in the subject heading because we get a lot of spam and it is a way of filtering out the junk.

-----------

---

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom

I think people have answered this question.
Jerry summed up nicely why the burn is there (the physiology behind the burn so to speak).T

The OP has trained using low HR which has meant (as I read it) more as the Extensive Aerobic or Intensive Aerobic training (about 65-80% of FTP). He is now starting to try to do efforts that are more in the range of Intensive Endurance-Threshold and his body has not been trained to adapt to such training yet. That is why he is experiencing the soreness and fatigue.

The only way to accomplish the goal of not fatiguing as quickly is to train at threshold and just under it to allow the body to adapt and start utilizing the lactate and clearing the byproducts of it.

Doing those 2x20, 2x40 subthreshold intervals will hurt like a mofo but it will make him a stronger rider than just riding along training exclusively by lower HR.

The OP got offended when people took issue with his training, but his training is precisely the reason he is running into the fatigue and HR variations indoors.

Joe is that you? /pinkfont

hehehe. I pulled out my chart to make sure I got the names right because I am a busy mom and grad student/full time nurse and my brain is full enough.

are you getting massage or doing stretching? also how's your diet, hydration, and eating on bike? are you getting proper amount of electrolytes?

I'd rather explain to the OP what is going on in his body, informing him so that he can make his own decision as to what training adjustments he should make.

Teach a man to fish versus give a man a fish.

YMMV.

Izzy, my fit is fine. My cleats are fine too. I had all this checked last October by a good fitter. I don't have a leg length issue even though my right leg has been broken 3 times.

I jumped on the first responder because he said I didn't get much at all if anything from my training. Well the truth of the matter is, the stopwatch is the only metric that really matters in triathlon. They don't post your lactate threshold, HR, or sweat rate... it's a time based sport. And the stopwatch says I am much faster, which means training has worked. So to say "based on this chart you didn't get much from your training" is not only insulting it's grossly inaccurate.

I haven't started my Z4 training yet. By the plan I built last year it doesn't start until 11 days from today. From what jack, FTD, and some others are echoing, it's time to hit the Z4 training. That was the answer I was expecting, but I'm not sure. This is the first season I ever did any significant base periodization. It was painfully slow at first. Now I'm able to hit speeds I could only hit in Z3/Z4 last season, but I could never hold it. Now I can hold it for quite a while too.

As for my cycling technique outdoors vs. indoors. I pedal all the time, uphill downhill you name it. This is the first season I've used the big ring and small gear down hill and wanted more. I'm not sure of the cadences on my road bike. On my tri bike I hold 90-95 religiously, but right now it's only on the trainer inside. I'll be taking it outside later in the season as I get closer to my big race of the year.

I don't think I need surgery or anything like that. The burn is equal in both quads. Slowing down or stopping and all the burn goes away quickly.

I have one thought on the whole lactate/lactic acid confusion. I think the "lactic acid" terminology comes from lay people because of the burning sensation. Acid burns, so it must be acid from the lactate...... It's not the correct technical terminology but that is probably where it comes from. Technically though, I don't really care one way or the other. I just want to know what it takes to get over this plateau, recovery, a week of lower intensity, or do I just need to blast through it via some intervals. It seems most feel intervals are the answer. Fine by me; intervals it is.

I will also never have 20 hours a week to train, at least not until I retire. My current plan calls for a max of 12 or so this season, and 15 next season. That's about the most I will ever get in. According to the plan I am following 10-20% of that time will be in Z4 depending on the period, but only in the build and peak periods.

---

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

As said before....Your training to date has built a fine "cake", now you need the speed work to put the "icing" on it.

You seem to have a problem I would want! (if I had to choose)

Don't be afraid to spend a lot of your time on the bike at tempo, sweetspot, and threshold (z3-4 in Friel speak I think). The purpose of the chart is not to show that you haven't accomplished anything, but that you get more bang for your buck so to speak at a higher intensity.

Well I'll be working on icing soon enough. I'll be putting on lots of icing this summer when it gets hot too. I have a date with my first 70.3 in September. I have remotely insane goals for next year considering 2 years ago I was riding a couch more than a bike. I'll report back how interval training is going in 6 weeks or so.

---

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

Based on your goals and time, you are probably best to rethink your plan of "base periodization" on the bike and replace your easy efforts with harder ones. This will increase your training load and therefore your fitness if you do huge volume on the bike, make sure every ride is hard.

Shane

x3

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

You will be fine (unless you have external illiac endofibrosis, in which case, you won't).

The transition from low aerobic training to anaerobic efforts is hard for three reasons:

1. As mentioned (a lot) anaerobic metabolism requires training, too.
2. Easy efforts recruit a smaller proportion of your muscle fibers than harder efforts. This neuromuscular adaptation to riding harder is also challenging.
3. Your brain isn't used to hard efforts yet.

All of these things will get better as you ride hard more.

If this seems more pathologic than just painful training adaptation and you want to see a sports medicine physician who knows about cycling and endofibrosis, I can help you find one.

Andy

I did a 5 min interval during a 45 min ride today at the 35 minute point. I dropped 2 gears and hammered it to 100rpm and held up just fine. My sweat rate during that interval was shocking and I definitely felt it in my legs. Nothing felt strange or disconcerting though. I wasn't supposed to do any intervals for 2 weeks, but it seemed fine. It will be a long time before I'm up to 20 min intervals or the 45 min intervals I have later on in the plan, but I will get there. It actually felt relieving to know I can ride even harder. It took 15 minutes of steady effort to get my HR up today and 2 minutes into the interval to hit Z4. I do think it is time to retest though too. I didn't want to destroy my legs before my 105 minute ride tomorrow.

---

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.

Hey, I have the very same problem, my quads accumulate tons of lactate, pyruvate or whatever, (the burn) and I can't keep up.

I am not sure what cadence should I train to get rid of this problem. Some say 90 while others say 60, I guess low cadence in a hard gear makes sense but who knows.

Anyway I have discovered a couple of tricks:

- a tbspoon of Sodium Bicarbonate prior to cycling prevents the burn, at least to some degree.
- try training seated leg extensions at the gym, you will get an awesome burn. Squatting is not even close, try that machine and you can train your pain/burn/acid tolerance and whatnot.


So I hope this is useful for you and any other info about the topic is welcome. Have a nice day.