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Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR
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Well I did search the forum without much luck on this one; I probably didn't do it right.

That said, I'm having a new for me training issue. Somedays on my rides, I get a nice burn in my quad right at the knee. Sometimes it is so bad, I just have to stop and rest for a few minutes or slow my pace for a few minutes. Then it lessens and I can then get on with it. Today I just couldn't do it.

I've been doing 20 weeks of base training keeping my HR low. It is working, I am gaining speed and fitness at a low HR, but now I can't even hit my threshhold HR on the bike sometimes without serious burning in my quads. I'm not talking a light burn, but a steady my skin is turning bright red like a sunburn and this crap hurts. I figure it's not abnormal, which is why I am asking here.

I find it happens more on an indoor bike or the trainer where I am just pounding out miles upon miles at 95 rpm at a constant load. It doesn't seem to be a big bother outside with terrain changes and the fun of being outdoors. My big fear is this could hit me midrace sometime this season, and then I could be hosed. I'm about to do my first Oly, then a Sprint, then another Oly and then my first half. It's a local no WTC half, so there is less pressure to do well, but I don't want to fatigue out on the bike.

Should I back of my training a bit for a week or so? Should I just tell my quads to STFU and pedal through it? My running is progressing and swimming is progressing, but biking has suddenly hit a plateau. It isn't fitness related either but a muscle fatigue problem. Anyone got any advice other than HTFU? My seat height is fine.... it's been FISTED, but thanks for asking.

It has been worse the past two weeks though too. I've had to do my brick workout in reverse order run then bike thanks to visitors at the local gym. Normally it's a non issue for me. I usually do a short bike, short run then strength training on Wednesdays (yes I know how many feel about this here too). I skipped the strength training today, but did the calf raise machine to get a good stretch in my achilles and foot muscles and ligaments. Does a run then bike workout make this problem worse for others too? Any duathletes care to comment?

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS wrote:
Well I did search the forum without much luck on this one; I probably didn't do it right.

That said, I'm having a new for me training issue. Somedays on my rides, I get a nice burn in my quad right at the knee. Sometimes it is so bad, I just have to stop and rest for a few minutes or slow my pace for a few minutes. Then it lessens and I can then get on with it. Today I just couldn't do it.

I've been doing 20 weeks of base training keeping my HR low. It is working, I am gaining speed and fitness at a low HR, but now I can't even hit my threshhold HR on the bike sometimes without serious burning in my quads. I'm not talking a light burn, but a steady my skin is turning bright red like a sunburn and this crap hurts. I figure it's not abnormal, which is why I am asking here.

I find it happens more on an indoor bike or the trainer where I am just pounding out miles upon miles at 95 rpm at a constant load. It doesn't seem to be a big bother outside with terrain changes and the fun of being outdoors. My big fear is this could hit me midrace sometime this season, and then I could be hosed. I'm about to do my first Oly, then a Sprint, then another Oly and then my first half. It's a local no WTC half, so there is less pressure to do well, but I don't want to fatigue out on the bike.

Should I back of my training a bit for a week or so? Should I just tell my quads to STFU and pedal through it? My running is progressing and swimming is progressing, but biking has suddenly hit a plateau. It isn't fitness related either but a muscle fatigue problem. Anyone got any advice other than HTFU? My seat height is fine.... it's been FISTED, but thanks for asking.

It has been worse the past two weeks though too. I've had to do my brick workout in reverse order run then bike thanks to visitors at the local gym. Normally it's a non issue for me. I usually do a short bike, short run then strength training on Wednesdays (yes I know how many feel about this here too). I skipped the strength training today, but did the calf raise machine to get a good stretch in my achilles and foot muscles and ligaments. Does a run then bike workout make this problem worse for others too? Any duathletes care to comment?

that's the classic tail wagging the dog approach to training. care to explain what you mean by low HR? what is that HR in relation to your LTHR?

Unless you are doing 20-25hr/week at "low HR," i suspect you have marginally improved your O2 carrying capacity without increasing oxidative enzymes in your muscles. you may want to take a look at this chart to get a sense of what you got out of your training, which may be not much at all.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your input, but you are wrong. I know everyone on ST trains 50 hours a week at 105% FTP and sets a new world speed and distance record every training session, but in the real world most people don't have that kind of time to devote to training.

My training has been beneficial beyond your wildest dreams. I can run the same paces as last season at a HR that is 20 bpm lower. I can also run and cycle much faster when needed. Your assessment was not very helpful, but thanks for commenting anyway. Maybe someone else will have a useful input. In my first TRI of the season (4 weeks ago) my 5K run was 30 seconds off my fastest 5K stand alone run ever..... at a lower HR. I know the conventional ST wisdom is that Z2 training is worthless, but collective wisdom doesn't always apply to everyone.

The problem is that if I am hitting 80-85% HR I'm literally frying my quads right now. I'm not having this problem on runs, just on the bike.

--------------------------------------------------------

You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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Low HR training has worked for me as well. Is the pain in one leg or both? May want to check your cleats and make sure your knee is aligned properly.

WD
http://thePoorAthlete.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WDHutchins
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Post deleted by chrisbint [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: chrisbint: Apr 5, 12 5:20
Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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No. Conventional ST wisdom is that lots of Z2 training on the bike us useless.

Lots of people here advocate Z2 running. See the much loved BarryP running plan.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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Come on dude asked about leg pain. Thread didn't say "Critique My Training".

WD
http://thePoorAthlete.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WDHutchins
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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I was debating whether I should reply since you jumped on the throat of the other poster rather harshly, but here goes;

1. Is your fit spot on? I ask this because personally I have a leg length discrepency and had right knee issue until I was measured properly(and this was after 4 seasons of heavy cycling and thinking I had my fit perfected). A burn on the quad, close to the knee could indicate that leg to be longer than the other, thus your over the top pedal stroke straining your quad. You could try raising your saddle slightly and moving your asymptomatic leg's cleat forward(thus elongating the shorter leg)

Thats my first guess based upon your info.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't discount advice you don't like, stay open minded.

With that said you claim to ride 20 weeks at a low intensity, I'm not surprised that now at a higher intensity you are feeling a lot of fatigue. You say that your training is beneficial beyond your wildest dreams yet are complaining of burning in your legs, that appears to be an inconsistant assesment of your training vs. performance.

While I don't feel riding at low HR is useless, I do think it gets you better at doing just that. If you give yourself some time at higher intensities I would expect to see improvement there too. Stay with the hard riding for a while and see how you do, you are going to have to suffer through it to get faster.

Good luck

jaretj
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I wouldn't discount advice you don't like, stay open minded.

With that said you claim to ride 20 weeks at a low intensity, I'm not surprised that now at a higher intensity you are feeling a lot of fatigue. You say that your training is beneficial beyond your wildest dreams yet are complaining of burning in your legs, that appears to be an inconsistant assesment of your training vs. performance.

While I don't feel riding at low HR is useless, I do think it gets you better at doing just that. If you give yourself some time at higher intensities I would expect to see improvement there too. Stay with the hard riding for a while and see how you do, you are going to have to suffer through it to get faster.

Good luck

jaretj

This

On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [wdhutchi] [ In reply to ]
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wdhutchi wrote:
Come on dude asked about leg pain. Thread didn't say "Critique My Training".

He spent 20 weeks doing "low heart rate" Z2 training and now his muscles burn when he tries to ride at LTHR. You don't think his training is relevant? He didn't ask about joint pain or blisters.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS wrote:
. I know the conventional ST wisdom is that Z2 training is worthless, but collective wisdom doesn't always apply to everyone.

I don't think anyone with a clue would suggest Z2 training is useless, but you have to do a lot of it. 20 hours is a LOT of training time, if it is an honest 20 hours.

However I think the pain you are getting at higher efforts could very well be the result of...not doing higher efforts a lot.

I prescibe a once weekly 4x5min @ vo2max and a once weekly zone 3 or 4 ride instead of zone 2



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Last edited by: jackmott: Apr 5, 12 5:40
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [MattAune] [ In reply to ]
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MattAune wrote:
wdhutchi wrote:
Come on dude asked about leg pain. Thread didn't say "Critique My Training".


He spent 20 weeks doing "low heart rate" Z2 training and now his muscles burn when he tries to ride at LTHR. You don't think his training is relevant? He didn't ask about joint pain or blisters.

Then just say something like "Maybe give your muscles more time to get used to high intensity training and check your fit."

WD
http://thePoorAthlete.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WDHutchins
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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The goal of training is not an e-wang contest to be faster at the lowest hr. For starters, you hsven't even given proof that you got stronger on the bike. Sure, you are faster, but that couldjust be due to warmer weather.

The goal of training is to elicit adaptations, to which you seem ignorant. You do realize that soreness during exercise at high intensity suggest a build up of lactate, right? The build up of which means there's not enough oxidative enzyme in your muscles. If that's not what you are referring, pain after 15m of mid-tempo is also possible. I've experienced it when ramping up intensity, and it means your muscle isn't used to that intensity, and repairs have to be made to rebuild your muscles. These feel like DOMS, except they don't last as long and arent as painful.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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AnthonyS wrote:
Thanks for your input, but you are wrong. I know everyone on ST trains 50 hours a week at 105% FTP and sets a new world speed and distance record every training session, but in the real world most people don't have that kind of time to devote to training.

The lack of time to train is a great indication that your bike and swim sessions should be more not less intense.

Shane
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Very good advice Jack


Anthony has developed a very good base...now it is time for higher intensity training .
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
You do realize that soreness during exercise at high intensity suggest a build up of lactate, right? The build up of which means there's not enough oxidative enzyme in your muscles. .

I thought this was discussed in another thread and it's untrue?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=1&n=top/reference/times%20topics/people/k/kolata,%20gina

The article suggested that there's no such thing as lactic acid buildup because it's basically a source of energy and is gone once exercise is completed? Sorry this is off-topic but I didn't know if this was still an open-ended discussion or if a consensus was actually reached.

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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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IzzyG wrote:
echappist wrote:
You do realize that soreness during exercise at high intensity suggest a build up of lactate, right? The build up of which means there's not enough oxidative enzyme in your muscles. .


I thought this was discussed in another thread and it's untrue?

The article suggested that there's no such thing as lactic acid buildup because it's basically a source of energy and is gone once exercise is completed? Sorry this is off-topic but I didn't know if this was still an open-ended discussion or if a consensus was actually reached.

First, i said lactate, not lactic acid. Yes, it's pedantic terminologies, but there's an important distinction

2nd, key word there is once exercise is over. This would be the case for bouts of anaerobic exertions, where repeatability of intervals depends on initial amount of glycogen available and rate of lactate clerance by the liver before the next bout. If the OP is accumulating lactate 10 minutes into an aerobic exercise, in which lactate shouldn't build up appreciably, it would indicate that the OP's muscles don't have enough oxidative enzymes. Then, the only thing to do is to stop, which would defeat the purpose of aerobic efforts.

It's also possible that what the OP is experiencing is not soreness but actual strain and tearing of muscle fibers as those fibers can't handle the exertion required, in which case, recovery is needed for the muscle to repair itself, and it should get stronger as a result.

edit: that article is full of BS. To read Kolata talking about science would be the same as going on Velonews to read reports on the crisis in Syria.

Lactate is not a fuel, period. It could be converted into fuel in the liver via the Cori cycle in a process called gluconeogenesis, but muscles can't directly metabolize lactate. Lactate concentration probably also doesn't have nearly as much effect on terminating exercise as the build up of protons, but that's another issue; this is why some try bicarbonate regimens so that there's more buffer in the blood.

Dr. Phil Skiba was kind enough to share his research on the rate of gluconeogenesis, and I'd suggest you and the OP read it. The take away is that the rate is painfully slow, and it's nigh impossible at any significant levels of exertion.
Last edited by: echappist: Apr 5, 12 8:52
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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I would find find a vascular surgeon in your area and have an ankle-brachial test done on your bike to rule out this http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/...terial-endofibrosis/

I had similiar symptoms for years and finally was diagnosed with this a couple months ago, surgery 2 weeks ago.

Jill
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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I am gaining speed and fitness at a low HR, but now I can't even hit my threshhold HR on the bike sometimes without serious burning in my quads. I'm not talking a light burn, but a steady my skin is turning bright red like a sunburn and this crap hurts. I figure it's not abnormal, which is why I am asking here.

I find it happens more on an indoor bike or the trainer where I am just pounding out miles upon miles at 95 rpm at a constant load. It doesn't seem to be a big bother outside with terrain changes and the fun of being outdoors.

a couple of things from the very very n00b eye of mine...
I have 3 kids, a cyclist husband, a full time job and full time grad school. Every workout I have with the exception of a longer run (and it is still hilly), is interval work. I am about as crunched for time as a person can be and you have gotten some really great advice on how to help PREVENT the burn you speak of.

As for the trainer vs. the road. What is your cadence on the road? Is it lower? Higher?
If you are outside and coasting down hills after a climb, you get some rest....the effort may be less intense or intense for a lesser amount of time.
Check for valgus and varus with your provider or someone who is certified to fit a bike. You may need to shim your shoe or cleat. I have a leg length discrepancy that I use inserts for in my shoes that made a difference in my knee pain.

What is your position on the trainer. Are you seated the entire time? Maybe you are getting tired and letting the dominant leg take over or there is an imbalance you are unaware of that periodic standing and climbing/descents hides for you.

Don't get butthurt because people who have a lot of experience and knowledge point out some very valid things. It isn't a slight on you as a person, merely advice. :)

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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [AnthonyS] [ In reply to ]
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To the OP

n=1, the more time I spend at threshold each week, the more I seem to be able to tolerate. When I first started incorporating a weekly 2x20 workout after a Friel type base, it was very very difficult. Now I'm hitting threshold for about 30% of my training.
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Lactate is not a fuel, period. It could be converted into fuel in the liver via the Cori cycle in a process called gluconeogenesis, but muscles can't directly metabolize lactate.


This is not an accurate description of what goes on during exercise. Lactate is most definitely a fuel and probably the most important fuel for competition. Most lactate created during exercise is metabolized in the aerobic system in the muscles after it has been created during glycolysis. In fact it becomes the dominant fuel for a lot of events. Any event that takes place near the threshold is using nearly 100% lactate created by glycolysis and the glycolysis itself as fuel. At or above threshold there is almost no fat metabolized so all the energy originates in glucose either through glycolysis or the subsequent metabolization of the lactate in the aerobic system.

Now lactate turns back into pyruvate just before entering the mitochondria but for most of its short life this molecule exists as lactate not pyruvate. Lactate will often be produced in one muscle cell and then used in another as it leaves a muscle and travels to other cells by the blood stream or sometimes interstitial fluids. Lactate leaves the system primarily through aerobic metabolism.

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Lactate concentration probably also doesn't have nearly as much effect on terminating exercise as the build up of protons


True but the lactate and hydrogen ions are created in about equal numbers so that the lactate marker is indicative of the problems with a low muscle ph and is used as an indicator of problems above the threshold. There are also other metabolites that are thought to contribute to metabolic fatigue but increasing lactate levels correlate highly with the inability to contract the muscles so that the athlete must either stop or slow down and in the process will start lowering the lactate levels in both the muscles and blood.

Unfortunately all this discussion detracts from what is really happening during exercise and how one can train to maximize energy production during a race which is one of the major objectives of training if not the most important. It is possible to train the muscles to produce more or less energy through glycolysis and this will affect the threshold and performance in a race.

------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Jerryc wrote:
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Lactate is not a fuel, period. It could be converted into fuel in the liver via the Cori cycle in a process called gluconeogenesis, but muscles can't directly metabolize lactate.



This is not an accurate description of what goes on during exercise. Lactate is most definitely a fuel and probably the most important fuel for competition. Most lactate created during exercise is metabolized in the aerobic system in the muscles after it has been created during glycolysis. In fact it becomes the dominant fuel for a lot of events. Any event that takes place near the threshold is using nearly 100% lactate created by glycolysis and the glycolysis itself as fuel. At or above threshold there is almost no fat metabolized so all the energy originates in glucose either through glycolysis or the subsequent metabolization of the lactate in the aerobic system.


i stand corrected. My distrust of NYT's Kolata has me put on my blinders to the claims within, so I thank you for bringing this to light. When i took biochem in 2004, this was still a phenomenon that was only recently being brought to light and was not taught. The following article may be of interest: http://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15131240

That said, it's doubtful that the OP's training causes any over expression of the enzymes involved in muscular oxidation of lactate, given that lactate level probably doesn't even go 1mmol above baseline at low HR.
Last edited by: echappist: Apr 5, 12 14:06
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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IzzyG wrote:
echappist wrote:
You do realize that soreness during exercise at high intensity suggest a build up of lactate, right? The build up of which means there's not enough oxidative enzyme in your muscles. .


I thought this was discussed in another thread and it's untrue?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=1&n=top/reference/times%20topics/people/k/kolata,%20gina

The article suggested that there's no such thing as lactic acid buildup because it's basically a source of energy and is gone once exercise is completed? Sorry this is off-topic but I didn't know if this was still an open-ended discussion or if a consensus was actually reached.


Yes lactate provides a source of substrate for some highly aerobic tissues, but there is a "buildup" if the work rate is high enough (i.e. above FTP/CP).

Accumulation of lactate happens when the work rate is higher than can be sustained aerobically and the body must recruit Type II fibers to maintain the level of effort. The higher the intensity of effort, the more Type II fibers recruited, and the greater the production of lactate.

Lactate is not some kind of poison, but it IS a marker that the intensity of exercise or work rate is higher than can be sustained for an extended period.
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Apr 5, 12 14:00
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Re: Cycling fatigue lactate buildup and HR [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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JollyRogers wrote:
IzzyG wrote:
echappist wrote:
You do realize that soreness during exercise at high intensity suggest a build up of lactate, right? The build up of which means there's not enough oxidative enzyme in your muscles. .


I thought this was discussed in another thread and it's untrue?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=1&n=top/reference/times%20topics/people/k/kolata,%20gina

The article suggested that there's no such thing as lactic acid buildup because it's basically a source of energy and is gone once exercise is completed? Sorry this is off-topic but I didn't know if this was still an open-ended discussion or if a consensus was actually reached.


Yes lactate provides a source of substrate for some highly aerobic tissues, but there is a "buildup".

Production of lactate happens when the work rate is higher than can be sustained aerobically and the body must recruit Type II fibers to maintain the level of effort. The higher the intensity of effort, the more Type II fibers recruited, and the greater the production of lactate.

Lactate is not some kind of poison, but it IS a marker that the intensity of exercise or work rate is higher than can be sustained for an extended period.

you just provided a nice summary to everything, thanks for that. It's not a yes/no scenario as much as a question of how much flows in and how much flows out. That muscles can clear lactate just increases the rate of flowing out, but if the rate of flowing in still overwhelms it, lactate will build up.
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