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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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C'mon man...ffs! I ask a question and his response is - translated - your question is stupid, how dare you ask.

Give me a break. My kids know better than that.

This holier-than-thou attitude that pervades this place now is comical.
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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HVP wrote:
C'mon man...ffs! I ask a question and his response is - translated - your question is stupid, how dare you ask.

Give me a break. My kids know better than that.

This holier-than-thou attitude that pervades this place now is comical.

so, remind me, who's the one being snarky and holier-than-thou?

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [Multisportsdad] [ In reply to ]
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In terms of the original thread, I HOPE you can figure this out.
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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quoting for truth. thanks Jim!

Jim@EROsports wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility. Why does this continually come up?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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dude, you need to realize when someone smart is talking and *listen*

HVP wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Why does this continually come up?


Gosh, I guess I didn't do a thorough enough search. I haven't seen this continually come up. My apologies for raising your blood pressure.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility.



Nothing, whatsoever? I call BS.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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saying "aggressive", even in quotes, makes me cringe...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:
A couple of additional notes - you mentioned saddle discomfort as you move to a lower position, and I definitely see that from time to time. First thing is to try and find a saddle that doesn't hurt when you are in that position. Some adaptation to deal with the different saddle pressure is also usually required.

I tend to be very conservative with lowering the nose of a saddle - it tends to create a situation where the rider slides forward, constantly needing to push themselves back using their arms and shoulders. So while saddle comfort might improve, it might create shoulder fatigue that makes the position unsustainable.

if I do lower the nose of the saddle a bit (or if the rider tends to slide forward for whatever reason), I try to angle the extensions and armpads up so that it creates friction to push back with without requiring the rider to do any work. If you have a fixed, integrated base bar, you can kind of cheat to get the same result by getting extensions with a more pronounced rise, such as a Zipp EVO or similar.

I'm low, neck limiting. My saddle is angled about 5 or 6 degrees. Absolutely necessary because of my sizable manliness. I have sticky stuff on my saddle to prevent sliding. Works awesome. I use the thin tape that comes with my lizard skin bar tape.

NO
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]
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Should that be in pink?
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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In the hopes of staving off more escalation, I just want to chime in to say that Jim is one of the premier bike fitters in the world and is also an extremely nice guy. If his post came off as frustrated, I can assure you that he's frustrated with misinformation and perhaps the industry, but not you personally. Also, the standard rules for online interactions apply, namely that tone is often misconstrued.

Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com
Last edited by: asellerg: Sep 22, 17 19:50
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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While we are asking, how do those of you (males) who ride long and low deal with the increased pressure on the perineum and testicles? This is honestly the only limiting factor on how low of a position I can ride, and it is super frustrating!

After my fit, I tried almost every saddle on the market from ISM, Cobb, Dash, Profile, Specialized, Selle Italia, etc..both with tri and road shorts, but nothing really worked so I finally gave up and raised my front end which took the pressure off. The only thing I didn't try but would consider is a jock strap to keep things in check but I can't fathom trying to race in one.

How do you guys deal with this?
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, you need to realize when someone smart is not offering anything but condescension. I know who Jim is and I know that he is one of the smart ones. And I'm only two hours away from him, so a would-be customer (not so much now, though).

i did "listen" to his post. It "said" to me: "Duh. Why are you asking a dumb question that has been answered numerous times."

So I have gone back and re-used the search function and I can't seem to find evidence of this being a dead horse.

So why don't you enlighten me. Or are you not one of the smart ones to which I should listen?
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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HVP wrote:
Dude, you need to realize when someone smart is not offering anything but condescension. I know who Jim is and I know that he is one of the smart ones. And I'm only two hours away from him, so a would-be customer (not so much now, though).

i did "listen" to his post. It "said" to me: "Duh. Why are you asking a dumb question that has been answered numerous times."

So I have gone back and re-used the search function and I can't seem to find evidence of this being a dead horse.

So why don't you enlighten me. Or are you not one of the smart ones to which I should listen?
I didn't think of his post that way at all, but I'm fortunate to know Jim and to know that's not at all what he would have intended to communicate. At the same time, I can see how it might come off that way - being succinct always seems dismissive. I think it's just a side effect of how commentary on forums works and think you should give him the benefit of the doubt - he's definitely someone that can help if you are, indeed, a would-be customer.

And you're always better off getting a good fit from someone you don't like than getting a bad fit from someone you think is great.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
While we are asking, how do those of you (males) who ride long and low deal with the increased pressure on the perineum and testicles? This is honestly the only limiting factor on how low of a position I can ride, and it is super frustrating!

After my fit, I tried almost every saddle on the market from ISM, Cobb, Dash, Profile, Specialized, Selle Italia, etc..both with tri and road shorts, but nothing really worked so I finally gave up and raised my front end which took the pressure off. The only thing I didn't try but would consider is a jock strap to keep things in check but I can't fathom trying to race in one.

How do you guys deal with this?

The saddle I use matters little in how I ride. Lets forget about Time Trial/Tri positions and focus on the road bike. I'm going to assume you have a "normal" saddle there. I use a variation of Brooks Cambium across my three road bikes to include my UP. When on the rivet, literally, I am not sitting on my guys I'm off to the side sitting on my sit bones still just from another angle, if that makes sense. In the file below you can see the ischial tuberosity highlighted in red. When back on the saddle and sitting up I am much further back on the sit bones but as I rotate further forward I move to the more forward portion. With a nosed saddle and riding forward I am one one side of those or with a split nose/cut-off saddle I am on both.

Now I brought up the nosed saddle on your road bike and riding the rivet as an example because if you're crushing your guys there then you probably aren't sitting on the saddle correctly. They should be forward and out of the way. Can this cause numbness and discomfort still? Well, yes. But it shouldn't be anything to do with your man bits. So, the key here is to make sure you're sitting on your saddle properly and if you are then just move forward until there is no pressure on your stuff.

A brief side note, I used to ride my Time Trial bike with a lot of saddle setback before I went to Di2. But due to their not being an elegant solution for the A-junction I switched to my forward offset seat post so I could drill it. Because of that I sit further back on my Dash now and have changed the bit I made level. Before with my ISM and latter my Dash, when I was more hanging off the end I had the nose more level. Now the nose is allowed to drop down and where I sit is the level bit. Therefore, the cutout and rolling of the nose gives me more room. I hops that all makes sense and is in some way helpful. Photo of my rig to so you can see how my saddle is set up. For a point of reference I am sitting directly above the saddle clamp portion.

Oh, on flexibility: I has none.




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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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"-I train in that position sufficiently, and I consciously practice neck/head turtle all the time. If you haven't ridden your TT bike in 2-3 weeks, your neck should probably hurt post ride, or at least mine does. "

This! I am not the flexible at all but proper fits with guys like Jim and good practice on points like above you can be very aero. I push similar watts Kiley and go similar speeds (i think). You can do a lot with your shoulders and heads once you get in a good position to make a good position a great position.


I will try the 165-167.5 cranks with winter as well. I agree expensive process.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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HVP wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Why does this continually come up?

Gosh, I guess I didn't do a thorough enough search. I haven't seen this continually come up. My apologies for raising your blood pressure.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility.


Nothing, whatsoever? I call BS.

It really doesn't involve flexibility. Most people define flexibility as "stretchy muscles" (I guess, I have never had to strictly define it before) but perhaps if you mean flexible as in...adaptable? Then the tri position might involve quite a bit of flexibility.

Being long is more a question of appropriate reach combined with good postural awareness and well adapated seat bone positioning. Being low is about how much neck and shoulder durability you can build. And it is ALL about good posture coaching.
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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What aerobar is that?!

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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
HVP wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Why does this continually come up?


Gosh, I guess I didn't do a thorough enough search. I haven't seen this continually come up. My apologies for raising your blood pressure.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility.



Nothing, whatsoever? I call BS.


It really doesn't involve flexibility. Most people define flexibility as "stretchy muscles" (I guess, I have never had to strictly define it before) but perhaps if you mean flexible as in...adaptable? Then the tri position might involve quite a bit of flexibility.

Being long is more a question of appropriate reach combined with good postural awareness and well adapated seat bone positioning. Being low is about how much neck and shoulder durability you can build. And it is ALL about good posture coaching.

I agree that it's more about adaptability than "flexibility" to achieve a great TT aero position.

Pretty much anybody can get a great road bike position, right?
Zero flexibility needed for that.

Given that a great TT position should be nearly indentical to a great road bike position -
but with everything rotated forward exactly as is, w/ the BB as the pivot point -
why would you need CIrque du Soleil level "flexibility" to achieve that??

Answer - you don't. It's a myth.

The biggest strains/limiters on an aggressive/low position, are neck/head - and being able to actually see up the road, and the different stress on the taintular region, due to being so far forward.
Both of those can be trained and adapted to.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Dude, you need to realize when someone smart is not offering anything but condescension

Having worked with Jim numerous times in the fitting studio and on the track, I didn't read anything condescending in his original reply.

I can see him working in the studio saying that shrugging his shoulders as he's reaching for some parts to swap out.

It's the internet, probably best to read everything like 2 people are chatting over beers.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [jrielley] [ In reply to ]
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jrielley wrote:
What aerobar is that?!

Bayonet 3 devox with zipp evo 110 carbon extensions.

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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Looks slick! Might have to toy around with those extensions this winter.

Twitter - Instagram
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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thing is, the signal to noise on Jim's post was *very* high if you're looking for knowledge and understanding and know what to listen for.

desert dude wrote:
Quote:
Dude, you need to realize when someone smart is not offering anything but condescension


Having worked with Jim numerous times in the fitting studio and on the track, I didn't read anything condescending in his original reply.

I can see him working in the studio saying that shrugging his shoulders as he's reaching for some parts to swap out.

It's the internet, probably best to read everything like 2 people are chatting over beers.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [HVP] [ In reply to ]
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HVP wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Why does this continually come up?

Gosh, I guess I didn't do a thorough enough search. I haven't seen this continually come up. My apologies for raising your blood pressure.

Jim@EROsports wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility.


Nothing, whatsoever? I call BS.

So you know who Jim is but you still think he's full of it?

Please enlighten us all how flexibility has anything to do with riding a fast position?

blog
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I wanted to chime in because my experience is very similar to kiley's. My current position is long and low (maxed out speed concept) and I am very aero, particularly for my size/build.
-- I went from 175mm cranks to 162.5 that I use now. No I do not notice the difference going from one bike to the next -- at least not for more than 30 seconds. I originally tried shorter cranks because I thought they would help me get power back, but actually what happened was they made me more aero at about the same power.
-- I train my position pretty consistently.
-- I'm just normal flexibility for a male athlete I think. Nothing special here.
-- Similarly to kiley, since 2012 I have steadily lost power and gained speed. I would love to have the power back, but I am also very happy with the result. I remember wondering if I could ever do >25 mph in a longer race. Now I regularly do 27-28mph on less power.
-- BTW Jim also helped me with my position.

Is there a secret? Not really. A mistake people make is thinking you're just going to magically get there overnight. It takes a LOT of work to fine tune your position. Anyone who reads this forum knows kiley tinkers with stuff almost daily. Guess what: do that enough and you will find things that work. I think working with a good fitter and experimenting with lots of things is the key. Just keep working on it and you'll get there.
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
thing is, the signal to noise on Jim's post was *very* high if you're looking for knowledge and understanding and know what to listen for


Well, no.

Misunderstood Jim wrote:
It has nothing to do with flexibility. Why does this continually come up?


Jim is one of the great fitters, but this post really doesn't illuminate anything of value. He has before, but this doesn't do it.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Sep 24, 17 10:36
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Re: Long and Low - How? Attn: Kiley, Bjorn, Others? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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About flexibility required to get a good TT bike fit:

Can you sit slumped on a chair? Can you extend your legs so that you are 30 degrees from full extension at the knee? If yes, you have enough flexibility.

Imo its more thoracic/scapular flexibility if you want a fast bike fit; putting your elbows tight and slightly more flex in the shoulders actually takes a little bit of flexibility. Start wider if you dont have it yet.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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