A - or - a version of it: maintained flexibility sovne young age. You grow old and unflexible, you stay that way.

It has nothing to do with flexibility. Why does this continually come up?

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Go see Jim or another capable fitter with some background in aerodynamics. Although I'm young, I am about as inflexible as they come. At 6'4" I still manage a fairly long and low fit, but I got started down that path with a proper fit (from Jim actually) and have iterated from there.

Due to poor explanations from people outside of the hallowed grounds of Slowtwitch, equating "lowness" to flexibility to get into the position.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I think it's so pervasive because it's an easy explanation a poor fitter can give for why they can't position someone correctly. And with a lot of poor fitters, it's "common knowledge" getting passed to the customers.

If you constrain yourself to the existing equipment, not using a fitbike, and making no real modification to saddle, cranks, aerobar, or even stem, then the only thing left is the squishy meatbag doing the pedaling. Blame it for being inflexible, and demand your $300. The customers continue to pay. Why would any fitter bother doing real work with that kind of ROI?

Thank you for not being that kind of fitter (from what I've heard/read). -J

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Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

Gosh, I guess I didn't do a thorough enough search. I haven't seen this continually come up. My apologies for raising your blood pressure.



Nothing, whatsoever? I call BS.

Option D for me. I have short legs. My bike appears to be long and low, but my position is not.

Also, (at least on a road bike) core strength and stability is a major factor in one's ability to hold an aggressive position.

For me personally getting long and low as long as I am flat is actually better for my back. I have a job with great demands on my back and have to habitually do back exercises and stay loose but even with all that said it's not very flexible. So for me I ride in a longer stretched out position with a saddle that really allows me to rotate my hips forward and keep my back very flat getting rid of that arched flexed position.

But that's just me and everybody's makeup is different.

You're reading emotion into my response a little too much. Flexibility has nothing to do with it, but you can keep thinking that all you want and limit yourself to a poor position if you'd like.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

I would say it doesn't have TOO much to do with flexibility.

If you can touch your toes, you don't have serious back issues or serious neck issues you can get long and low with a proper fit.

You can get rotated so you breath easier, you are faster, you don't need to have knees hitting elbows and you can support yourself with your skeletal system a bit more rather than 100% of your core.

The main limiter is being able to see down the road.

Sometimes you can get too low - but you should be able to get to a good long and low position with a proper fit.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

No. Not reading too much.

I'm asking for help. Clearly not "limiting [myself] to a poor position if [I'd] like."

And you are providing belittling, snarky responses (two of them).

But I get it. It makes you happy. Go on. Good luck in your business.

X1, in most cases we see that the neck is the limiting factor in getting low above core or flex. I have a drop of 16 cm, physically i could go lower but the neck / looking forward keeps going from lower. 10 to 15 years ago i was 2 - 3 cm lower without any issue. But that is gone due to the neck

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Thank you. Refreshing.

In your opinion, do you have to tilt down the saddle? I have my berries hanging off the front of my saddle, but it still hurts my taint if I'm too low. And this is with my seat slammed all the way forward. I've had a professional fit, but I still can't seem to achieve the coveted "low" position.

Edit: I think that has more to do with the seat. I run a level saddle. I do see some that have a slightly down angled seat. But you also don't want to fight the forward slide so I would look to solve that with the seat if possible. Split nose seats are what saved me.


HVP - One of the recurring issues with the discussion on fit has more to do with the type fitter you are subject to. Many of the bike manufacturers, over the past 5 or so years, have made shorter top tubes and taller bikes.

Many of those shops that sell the bikes send a salesman or mechanic to a Fit School to learn how to fit (and generate revenue from those fits). If the shop only sells short and tall bikes the fitter may fit to what he/she can sell.

That is contrary to what unaffiliated fitters do.

This is not always the case. There are many good fitters in shops that sell bikes.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

-I ride steep, with saddle very far forward. I'd like to say my saddle allows a lot of forward pelvic rotation, but it's probably not the best saddle for that (Bontrager Hilo XXX) and I think I have a some to gain with a better saddle and more forward hip rotation. Most people do, My problem is every time I try new saddles I hate them.

-I ride shortish cranks, at 165mm. My fit progression went from 172.5 to 170 to 165 to 162.5 and now back to 165, which I find ideal. This is such an important variable I think, but most disregard it because it's a pain in the ass and expensive as shit to figure out.

-I train in that position sufficiently, and I consciously practice neck/head turtle all the time. If you haven't ridden your TT bike in 2-3 weeks, your neck should probably hurt post ride, or at least mine does.

-I am naturally flexible. While it's really fashionable to say that flexibility doesn't matter -- and I'm not a fitter, so what do I know? -- but I think there's a fundamental difference between "can you touch your toes?" and "can you touch your toes 80-100 times per minute while actively engaging and stressing your hip flexors. There has to be a difference between those two questions. That said, I agree that in the fit studio almost anyone who can touch their toes can pedal in a long and low position for several minutes without issue.

-I am fine producing significantly less power in exchange for being significantly more aero. Back when my fit was as below, in 2012, I did 70.3 bike legs with average power of at or above 250 watts (at 145 lbs). But on a flat course and a windless day, I could only go 24.2-24.4 miles per hour. I've obviously made other equipment changes since then, but now I can go well over 1mph faster on 30 less watts. I can now only average 220W in a 70.3, or as much as 230W on a very hilly course like Syracuse, but I'll never see 250W again -- not in my current position.

I'm still experimenting myself before getting around to having a proper fit. But it seems to me you can be 'hanging off the front' but still have the pelvis in a similar position to a road bike. Or you can have the pelvis rotated forward more which is what I think you want.

The former is really just sliding forward and leaning lower. The later is rotating the whole position (all contact points) around and forward.

As I say I'm just reading stuff and experimenting so take that for what it's worth. I'd love it if someone could link a decent description of what it should feel like and what adjustments to play with.

I was just talking to a friend about this who was talking to his friend, who qualified for Kona at IMSR. He said before IMSR 70.3 he lowered his front end a quarter inch and he was not able to run worth beans off the bike since his back hurt so much.

So when I hear that anyone can get super low, well, that is another reason I have held of paying someone to fit me. Some of just for various reasons even with a perfect fit just cannot get that low, and that is okay.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've never been able to touch my toes, currently about about 6inches away and I get pretty low and comfortably stay there for halfs.

I think there is more to it than taking out spacers. If all we know about a friend of a friends fit is that the stem was lower then it isn't really conclusive evidence that the bit fit industry is flawed.

To echo with what has been said already, flexibility has very, very little to do with one's ability to ride in an "aggressive" position. It is possible that some with neck and shoulder flexibility issues can be limited by how low they can go, I've yet to see a single instance where lower body flexibility had any limiting role on the position I wanted the rider to adopt.

But sure enough and no matter how many times I say it, I still have people assure me on a weekly basis their flexibility is going to keep them from riding in an orthodox position. In terms of pet peeves, it's right up there with the "my coach (or fitter) and I are working towards a better position" when some rider shows up with a 35 degree back angle and 8 cm of spacers and I ask them why they are set up that way.

To answer your question, I've found body composition plays a significant role - leaner athletes can get lower (not just low body fat, but leaner builds). Hip angle plays a role - a closed hip angle due to saddle fore-aft, crank length, or the relative length of the tibia compared to the femur can affect hip angle.

The biggest limiter, that I deal with, is one's ability to deal with shoulder and neck pressure. Most commonly, a rider might feel unsustainable shoulder discomfort due to posture, partially due to muscle mass, and partially due to shoulder inflexibility. But more often, I see an inadequate armpad position due to the adjustment limitations of a rider's aerobars.

I commonly address shoulder discomfort issues by

• making sure a rider can structurally support themselves,
• widening the armpads,
• angling the extensions upward,
• rotating the armpads to support a wider shoulders but a closer hand position
• encouraging better head and neck posture

Shoulders and the muscles that connect to them are very complicated and pull in a variety of directions to provide you with the range of motion you enjoy, and there's no silver bullet that solves every shoulder discomfort issue and there's some trial and error involved in making adjustments. But the 5 things I listed are how I address 98% of the problems I'm fortunate enough to fix.

And I have some riders that, due to bad posture or whatever, simply can't relax their shoulders and just melt into the aerobars. No matter what I do, their shoulders and triceps are flexed no matter how hard they try not to. So that tension builds and turns into pain even though their position is spot on.

Some aerobars don't offer the adjustments I mentioned, so having the right equipment can help tremendously if the aerobars are limiting what would work best for the rider. I tend to prefer the Profile Design options over other aerobars specifically because of the ease- and range-of-adjustment. Maybe that other bar a rider is ready to spend $1K on will shave a few watts, but if it prevents them from sustaining a nice aero position, it will end up just making them slower.

There's no single formula or solution for everyone, but that's what I've done with some success over the years.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

A couple of additional notes - you mentioned saddle discomfort as you move to a lower position, and I definitely see that from time to time. First thing is to try and find a saddle that doesn't hurt when you are in that position. Some adaptation to deal with the different saddle pressure is also usually required.

I tend to be very conservative with lowering the nose of a saddle - it tends to create a situation where the rider slides forward, constantly needing to push themselves back using their arms and shoulders. So while saddle comfort might improve, it might create shoulder fatigue that makes the position unsustainable.

if I do lower the nose of the saddle a bit (or if the rider tends to slide forward for whatever reason), I try to angle the extensions and armpads up so that it creates friction to push back with without requiring the rider to do any work. If you have a fixed, integrated base bar, you can kind of cheat to get the same result by getting extensions with a more pronounced rise, such as a Zipp EVO or similar.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Same, haha. I love seeing, "it isn't about flexibility....if you can touch your toes, then you can get an aggressive fit..." What if you can't, haha?

I actually think I have done pretty well without really working at it. Neck is my limiting factor. Probably followed by crank length. To get lower would require effort conditioning my neck for sure. I'm not flexible, but that hasnt seemed to been a huge issue.

I think you can ride aggressively if you touch your knees. To heck with touching your toes - it just simply isn't limiting if the saddle height is good and the rider's hips are sufficiently open.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

C'mon man...FFS! Between you and Jim there is one guy getting extra snarky and thin-skinned in this exchange. It isn't Jim.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

C'mon man...ffs! I ask a question and his response is - translated - your question is stupid, how dare you ask.

Give me a break. My kids know better than that.

This holier-than-thou attitude that pervades this place now is comical.

so, remind me, who's the one being snarky and holier-than-thou?

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TEAM F3 Undurance

In terms of the original thread, I HOPE you can figure this out.

quoting for truth. thanks Jim!

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

dude, you need to realize when someone smart is talking and *listen*

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

saying "aggressive", even in quotes, makes me cringe...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I'm low, neck limiting. My saddle is angled about 5 or 6 degrees. Absolutely necessary because of my sizable manliness. I have sticky stuff on my saddle to prevent sliding. Works awesome. I use the thin tape that comes with my lizard skin bar tape.

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NO

Should that be in pink?

In the hopes of staving off more escalation, I just want to chime in to say that Jim is one of the premier bike fitters in the world and is also an extremely nice guy. If his post came off as frustrated, I can assure you that he's frustrated with misinformation and perhaps the industry, but not you personally. Also, the standard rules for online interactions apply, namely that tone is often misconstrued.

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Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com

While we are asking, how do those of you (males) who ride long and low deal with the increased pressure on the perineum and testicles? This is honestly the only limiting factor on how low of a position I can ride, and it is super frustrating!

After my fit, I tried almost every saddle on the market from ISM, Cobb, Dash, Profile, Specialized, Selle Italia, etc..both with tri and road shorts, but nothing really worked so I finally gave up and raised my front end which took the pressure off. The only thing I didn't try but would consider is a jock strap to keep things in check but I can't fathom trying to race in one.

How do you guys deal with this?

Dude, you need to realize when someone smart is not offering anything but condescension. I know who Jim is and I know that he is one of the smart ones. And I'm only two hours away from him, so a would-be customer (not so much now, though).

i did "listen" to his post. It "said" to me: "Duh. Why are you asking a dumb question that has been answered numerous times."

So I have gone back and re-used the search function and I can't seem to find evidence of this being a dead horse.

So why don't you enlighten me. Or are you not one of the smart ones to which I should listen?

I didn't think of his post that way at all, but I'm fortunate to know Jim and to know that's not at all what he would have intended to communicate. At the same time, I can see how it might come off that way - being succinct always seems dismissive. I think it's just a side effect of how commentary on forums works and think you should give him the benefit of the doubt - he's definitely someone that can help if you are, indeed, a would-be customer.

And you're always better off getting a good fit from someone you don't like than getting a bad fit from someone you think is great.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

The saddle I use matters little in how I ride. Lets forget about Time Trial/Tri positions and focus on the road bike. I'm going to assume you have a "normal" saddle there. I use a variation of Brooks Cambium across my three road bikes to include my UP. When on the rivet, literally, I am not sitting on my guys I'm off to the side sitting on my sit bones still just from another angle, if that makes sense. In the file below you can see the ischial tuberosity highlighted in red. When back on the saddle and sitting up I am much further back on the sit bones but as I rotate further forward I move to the more forward portion. With a nosed saddle and riding forward I am one one side of those or with a split nose/cut-off saddle I am on both.

Now I brought up the nosed saddle on your road bike and riding the rivet as an example because if you're crushing your guys there then you probably aren't sitting on the saddle correctly. They should be forward and out of the way. Can this cause numbness and discomfort still? Well, yes. But it shouldn't be anything to do with your man bits. So, the key here is to make sure you're sitting on your saddle properly and if you are then just move forward until there is no pressure on your stuff.

A brief side note, I used to ride my Time Trial bike with a lot of saddle setback before I went to Di2. But due to their not being an elegant solution for the A-junction I switched to my forward offset seat post so I could drill it. Because of that I sit further back on my Dash now and have changed the bit I made level. Before with my ISM and latter my Dash, when I was more hanging off the end I had the nose more level. Now the nose is allowed to drop down and where I sit is the level bit. Therefore, the cutout and rolling of the nose gives me more room. I hops that all makes sense and is in some way helpful. Photo of my rig to so you can see how my saddle is set up. For a point of reference I am sitting directly above the saddle clamp portion.

Oh, on flexibility: I has none.

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My YouTubes

"-I train in that position sufficiently, and I consciously practice neck/head turtle all the time. If you haven't ridden your TT bike in 2-3 weeks, your neck should probably hurt post ride, or at least mine does. "

This! I am not the flexible at all but proper fits with guys like Jim and good practice on points like above you can be very aero. I push similar watts Kiley and go similar speeds (i think). You can do a lot with your shoulders and heads once you get in a good position to make a good position a great position.


I will try the 165-167.5 cranks with winter as well. I agree expensive process.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

It really doesn't involve flexibility. Most people define flexibility as "stretchy muscles" (I guess, I have never had to strictly define it before) but perhaps if you mean flexible as in...adaptable? Then the tri position might involve quite a bit of flexibility.

Being long is more a question of appropriate reach combined with good postural awareness and well adapated seat bone positioning. Being low is about how much neck and shoulder durability you can build. And it is ALL about good posture coaching.

What aerobar is that?!

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Twitter - Instagram

I agree that it's more about adaptability than "flexibility" to achieve a great TT aero position.

Pretty much anybody can get a great road bike position, right?
Zero flexibility needed for that.

Given that a great TT position should be nearly indentical to a great road bike position -
but with everything rotated forward exactly as is, w/ the BB as the pivot point -
why would you need CIrque du Soleil level "flexibility" to achieve that??

Answer - you don't. It's a myth.

The biggest strains/limiters on an aggressive/low position, are neck/head - and being able to actually see up the road, and the different stress on the taintular region, due to being so far forward.
Both of those can be trained and adapted to.

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float , hammer , and jog

Having worked with Jim numerous times in the fitting studio and on the track, I didn't read anything condescending in his original reply.

I can see him working in the studio saying that shrugging his shoulders as he's reaching for some parts to swap out.

It's the internet, probably best to read everything like 2 people are chatting over beers.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Bayonet 3 devox with zipp evo 110 carbon extensions.

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My YouTubes

Looks slick! Might have to toy around with those extensions this winter.

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Twitter - Instagram

thing is, the signal to noise on Jim's post was *very* high if you're looking for knowledge and understanding and know what to listen for.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

So you know who Jim is but you still think he's full of it?

Please enlighten us all how flexibility has anything to do with riding a fast position?

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blog

I wanted to chime in because my experience is very similar to kiley's. My current position is long and low (maxed out speed concept) and I am very aero, particularly for my size/build.
-- I went from 175mm cranks to 162.5 that I use now. No I do not notice the difference going from one bike to the next -- at least not for more than 30 seconds. I originally tried shorter cranks because I thought they would help me get power back, but actually what happened was they made me more aero at about the same power.
-- I train my position pretty consistently.
-- I'm just normal flexibility for a male athlete I think. Nothing special here.
-- Similarly to kiley, since 2012 I have steadily lost power and gained speed. I would love to have the power back, but I am also very happy with the result. I remember wondering if I could ever do >25 mph in a longer race. Now I regularly do 27-28mph on less power.
-- BTW Jim also helped me with my position.

Is there a secret? Not really. A mistake people make is thinking you're just going to magically get there overnight. It takes a LOT of work to fine tune your position. Anyone who reads this forum knows kiley tinkers with stuff almost daily. Guess what: do that enough and you will find things that work. I think working with a good fitter and experimenting with lots of things is the key. Just keep working on it and you'll get there.

Well, no.



Jim is one of the great fitters, but this post really doesn't illuminate anything of value. He has before, but this doesn't do it.

About flexibility required to get a good TT bike fit:

Can you sit slumped on a chair? Can you extend your legs so that you are 30 degrees from full extension at the knee? If yes, you have enough flexibility.

Imo its more thoracic/scapular flexibility if you want a fast bike fit; putting your elbows tight and slightly more flex in the shoulders actually takes a little bit of flexibility. Start wider if you dont have it yet.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Forgive me for such a simple question, but can you give me some examples of what you do with the shoulders to improve head position?

In other words, what are you long and low types doing to develop your head position?

Scott

I spent as much time as I can riding in that specific position I want to hold race day. When you first start doing it you neck and shoulders will hurt a lot but you adapt.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

It's worth considering that the overwhelming feedback from the contributors here took Jim's post as nothing more than "I really wish this particular myth would go away." You seem to be going out of your way to being insulted, when you could just as easily take the comment and realize "this is great news, I CAN get a solid position even without being a human Gumby!"

Look at the glass again. It's half full, not half empty.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

I race with a 21% back angle which I've read is fairly low. One thing I haven't seen anyone post here on achieving a good position is not carrying any excess gut. If I gain 10 lbs in the winter, it definitely impacts the length of time I can stay in the position, but as I approach race weight then my ability to breathe while bent over is vastly improved.

I've been a tinkerer for a long time and my fit looks pretty good these days. I'm not very flexible but can maintain a 21° back angle. I'm most comfortable on my tt bike (p4). Weirdly I get back problems on my cross and mountain bikes despite them being much more upright. I've not spent the same amount of time getting them dialled in.
I'm coaching a guy at the moment and testing his Aero at the track over the winter. The weird thing is he is less flexible than me an he gets pretty flat but his shoulders and neck aren't adapted to being narrow. So he has wider arms to allow his head to drop.
He gets pretty frustrated as he regularly puts out 40 watts more than me but goes 1.5 to 2 kph slower.
Some of our differences are morphological (I have short legs) but if we get the body angles right we can adapt.