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Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence?
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It has been well established that, when it comes to aero bikes, disc brakes are worse than rim brakes in every sense. They are heavier. They are slower. They are expensive as all fuck. They aren't compatible with our existing equipment infrastructure. Aesthetically, they look downright terrible. The new Cervelo dentist bike effectively comes with four derailleurs, strapped all over the frame, which is defiled further by sloppy routing and mechanical cables and shit. What a nightmare.

At any rate, disc brakes are here, and there is simply no going back. Cannondale's P4x, Parlee's jawn, Cervelo's P5 BryanD edition, Diamondback's Andean -- they have officially arrived, so welcome to a new era in which rim brake-based frames and wheels are as good as irrelevant. You just bought a Dimond Marquise? Congratulations, you're a common moron. Show me a man who just dropped $2k for a Zipp Super 9 for racing this year, and I'll show you a man who just lost $1,000 in equipment equity.

One year from today, the most expensive equipment that you presently own will be worth shockingly little. Like tubulars and 26ers before them, rim-brake frames and wheels will be swept into the bowels of the classifieds, rendered obsolete by this new standard that has been forced upon us by the cycling industry generally and stan specifically. There really is no going back.

We as consumers are left with a pretty shitty choice. You can pay through the nose right now and acquire first generation product that broadly blows (but will undoubtedly become significantly better in six or twelve or eighteen month's time), or you can stand pat while your 808s depreciate in value down to approximately the square root of zero. Either way, it's going to be expensive. The only thing that is possibly worse than being an early adopter right now is being a late one.

So how will the rest of you navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? Storm the exits now or later? If you aren't buying now or in a year or so, you better be saving your shekels, because your old equipment won't be worth shit by the time you try to join the rest of us (i.e. the majority of us, who have already succumbed to this inferior braking system).

Welcome to the future. It's worse than the past. It's slower. It's heavier. It's expensiver. You better hold on to your wallet, because whether you like it or not you're about to get fleeced.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gonna keep my P3 rolling with Magura hydros on an aluminum Flo90 rear with Catalyst cover and Flo60 carbon front until someone comes up with an integrated bike and wheelset that is obviously faster.

I appreciate you stirring things up in the meantime.

Scott
Last edited by: GreatScott: Jan 8, 17 19:10
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't read your wall of text but I won't move to disc brake for road training/racing until it is common enough that I can get neutral wheel support during road races.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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It has been well established that, when it comes to aero bikes, disc brakes are worse than rim brakes in every sense PV states his opinions as facts.

FTFY ;P


I really see two ways to go. If you are the kind of person with lots of disposable income who only keeps bikes a few years then jump right in. You might be buying the equivalent of a BetaMax or a plasma TV, but you'll be able to get the improved tech when it comes out. For those who keep their equipment a long time (my road bike is from '04), just stick with the existing stuff until the disc brake designs get sorted (full hydro, aero designs, standard rotor diam., standard thru axle or QR).

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Not really sure if you actually believe what you write, or are truly just trying to be an asshole.....or both.

But.....when I walk through transition at any race, big or small, a good majority of the bikes there are -not- latest and greatest. If disc brakes are here to stay, which maybe they will be, I honestly think you are grossly over-estimating how quickly the general triathlon population will switch to them.
Electronic shifting has been around since roughly 1992 (Mavic Zap), and the more popular di2 for, I don't know, 10+ years?? Yet there are still plenty of folks using cable shifting.

I'm sure you'll pick apart my response.....but, you are wrong. Rim brakes/wheels will be around, and available, for many many years to come.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Or maybe you've just got 5 bikes and 8 wheel sets, there's just no room (for the moment) for something new.

But I'm thinking about it. Maybe when I turn 65...
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I will wait until the standards converge or at least until a decent package from a reputable brake maker shows up. Cable disc brakes are, in a way, the worst combination of rim brake and disc brake features (and one argue that the Magura hydraulic rim brakes, on aluminum brake tracks, are the best). It would be nice to see roadbike and/or TT bike hydraulic brake master cylinders done in an aesthetically reasonable way.

Less is more.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I don't really give a shit. I'm riding a 8 year old bike with 20+ year old Zipp 440 wheels. Sure I might be giving up a couple of minutes, but what-evs.

Hey, but feel free to be outraged. That's your right.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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This is hilarious.

Your argument about the merits/demerits of disc brakes is not worth responding to in my opinion. If you ever ride in an environment where there are technical descents, there simply is no comparison--disc brakes win out right every single time. If you don't, it's fine that you don't need disc brakes, but your needs are not everyone's needs. And as you said, they will get better and the trade-offs will be even fewer. Furthermore, by moving the weight to the center of the wheel as opposed to the rim, there is every reason to believe this will contribute to disc brakes ultimately being faster. http://www.cyclist.co.uk/...weight-vs-hub-weight

As for depreciation....I have no idea who buys bike parts as an investment. As you pointed out, it's not a good one. You rail against technological change based on depreciation? We'd still be using stone wheels if society followed your few. I'd say people who have bought wheels and frames in the past few years are in a very good position on the development chain. The gains from discs are, as you claim, marginal. So aside from descending they aren't losing much. And if they ride their equipment and maintain it, just as they get old and need replacement, the market will be supplied with matured technology and better data from which informed decisions can be made. As for used prices on goods such as carbon wheels and frames....I'd point you to the idea of a "lemon market." Goods such as this that can hide flaws are priced in the used market as though all of them are lemons. Many consumers, myself included, won't buy this type of product used unless I know it's provenance through a very trusted source...e.g. buy wheels off a friend I know personally. It's not just technological change that drives down the value of second hand cycling parts.

Finally, "we as a consumers are left with a pretty shitty choice..." Really? No rim brake bikes on the market that you could choose...and disc brake bikes that someone else could choose? See...a few years ago we did not have that CHOICE.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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It took me a minute to figure out what you meant by "Cannondale P4X".

I'm an equipment whore so I've decided to hedge my bets by selling one of my tri bikes and all of my rim brake wheels except my 404 NSWs. Depending on how Cannondale specs their new tri bike I might be interested in one of those. It's a good looking bike and the geometry *looks* appealing. Why would I pick one up? Because I'm an equipment whore and I'm a sucker for through-axles (totally unnecessary, I know, I just like the idea).

I saw a P5X in the flesh for the first time two days ago. It almost looks worse in person. Cervelo has produced some gorgeous bikes in the past so the aesthetics of the P5X tell me it was truly a data/purpose-driven design. The fact that they weren't able to make it materially faster than the P5-6 tells me we've reached peak aero (for frames).
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
It has been well established that, when it comes to aero bikes, disc brakes are worse than rim brakes in every sense. They are heavier. They are slower. They are expensive as all fuck. They aren't compatible with our existing equipment infrastructure. Aesthetically, they look downright terrible. The new Cervelo dentist bike effectively comes with four derailleurs, strapped all over the frame, which is defiled further by sloppy routing and mechanical cables and shit. What a nightmare.

At any rate, disc brakes are here, and there is simply no going back. Cannondale's P4x, Parlee's jawn, Cervelo's P5 BryanD edition, Diamondback's Andean -- they have officially arrived, so welcome to a new era in which rim brake-based frames and wheels are as good as irrelevant. You just bought a Dimond Marquise? Congratulations, you're a common moron. Show me a man who just dropped $2k for a Zipp Super 9 for racing this year, and I'll show you a man who just lost $1,000 in equipment equity.

One year from today, the most expensive equipment that you presently own will be worth shockingly little. Like tubulars and 26ers before them, rim-brake frames and wheels will be swept into the bowels of the classifieds, rendered obsolete by this new standard that has been forced upon us by the cycling industry generally and stan specifically. There really is no going back.

We as consumers are left with a pretty shitty choice. You can pay through the nose right now and acquire first generation product that broadly blows (but will undoubtedly become significantly better in six or twelve or eighteen month's time), or you can stand pat while your 808s depreciate in value down to approximately the square root of zero. Either way, it's going to be expensive. The only thing that is possibly worse than being an early adopter right now is being a late one.

So how will the rest of you navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? Storm the exits now or later? If you aren't buying now or in a year or so, you better be saving your shekels, because your old equipment won't be worth shit by the time you try to join the rest of us (i.e. the majority of us, who have already succumbed to this inferior braking system).

Welcome to the future. It's worse than the past. It's slower. It's heavier. It's expensiver. You better hold on to your wallet, because whether you like it or not you're about to get fleeced.


LOL nice wall o rant, glad we have all heard your OPINION.


Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
It has been well established that, when it comes to aero bikes, disc brakes are worse than rim brakes in every sense.

Except for the sense that they stop faster, but you listed so many facts i can understand why you would have skipped the most detrimental point to your argument. I agree for the most part, i think disc brakes suck as well. They look terrible IMO. Its not something i am looking forward too but i am sure eventually it will be the normal and we will forget about how things used to be and get used to how things are.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Easy, I will not buy a disk brake bike. Canyon or P5 are in my future.
But go ahead and enjoy spending your money anyway you want!

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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Karl wrote:
Easy, I will not buy a disk brake bike. Canyon or P5 are in my future.
But go ahead and enjoy spending your money anyway you want!

Better yet, all you guys who buy disc brake bikes...I'll buy your second hard wheels and fast bikes at firesale prices...everyone wins. Last time I checked almost no one is going faster than Mark Allen's 8:07 in Kona on Zipp 440's and a Huffy


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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Darren325 wrote:
If you ever ride in an environment where there are technical descents,...

I do...in fact, I just rode up and down the Gibraltar Road climb today ("Queen Stage" of the 2016 Amgen TOC) ...because I can :-P

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there simply is no comparison--disc brakes win out right every single time.

Actually, they don't...then again, I'm comparing to a "best in class" setup of Hydraulic calipers on Hed Jet+ Blacks w/Turbine brake tracks. They work just as well (power AND modulation) as my disc-braked road(ish) bike, and do so with no noise AND no signs of overheating, something I can't say about the discs. In fact, I have a couple friends with disc-braked road bikes that also agree that down the steepest, most technical descents, the discs tend to fade (as compared to their rim-braked road bikes)...so apparently it's not just me.

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Furthermore, by moving the weight to the center of the wheel as opposed to the rim, there is every reason to believe this will contribute to disc brakes ultimately being faster. http://www.cyclist.co.uk/...weight-vs-hub-weight

I'm calling BS on that 50g at rim vs 50g at hub "test report". Do the math. Compare the differences in rotational inertia of those cases and then compare them to the TOTAL inertia of the bike+rider system. In NO way is the difference in rotational inertia 20% of the total inertia, as it would need to be to account for that 4X vs 5X acceleration time. My quick back of the envelope puts that rotational inertia difference at more like 0.1% of the total, worst case. Not buying it.

BTW, since regular wheels are typically significantly less mass than an equivalently designed disc brake wheel, any rotational inertia "gain" from moving mass to the center can't come close to countering the sheer additional mass in the first place. Sorry...those are the facts.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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In other threads Pubes about peak aero being reached already, so why do you need to buy new shit anyway ?

I'll keep riding my Twinblade until the thing falls apart, if you don't have the legs you won't win shit anyway.

devashish_paul wrote:
Last time I checked almost no one is going faster than Mark Allen's 8:07 in Kona on Zipp 440's and a Huffy


Like i said, it's all in the legs and a decent fit, you don't need new shit every couple of years. The guys on world tour cycling teams seem to go pretty fast on nice clean basic set ups.
Last edited by: TriguyBlue: Jan 8, 17 18:51
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The Huffy was a nice bike.

Nevertheless, I don't count times from the 1990s against those from today. It was a completely different era.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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How about buy and ride whatever you want?

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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One year from today, the most expensive equipment that _I_ presently own will be worth shockingly little. Like tubulars and 26ers before them, rim-brake frames and wheels will be swept into the bowels of the classifieds, rendered obsolete by this new standard that has been forced upon us by the cycling industry generally and stan specifically. There really is no going back.


Firstly, I don't believe Personal Vendetta.

But if you change the personal pronoun in this screed, it becomes clearer that PV is just having another rant about the cost of triathlon. Second hand has always been the way to get into the sport for people of limited means, and will remain so.

My dad owned a second hand yacht (which he swapped for his cheap fishing boat). As far as hobbies go, this one isn't too bad.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
Last edited by: georged: Jan 8, 17 20:03
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I like to diversify..... and invest with caution.

For playing around in the dirt I bought a mechanical disc equipped steel bike last year....single speed cross is just better with good brakes, and in the mud and muck disc brakes win, hands down.
I have exactly two wheelsets for that bike (and won't buy more unless they break). Most fun ever!

For ALL my road riding and time trialing I will stick with rim brakes until the day I have to upgrade (I have plenty of NOS parts to keep me going for a long time).
They just work, are light, aero and easy to adjust / service anywhere (you can get pads from a Huffy to work on a DA rim brake shoe if you need to).

In 45 years of riding on the road I did never experience a situation that good and well adjusted rim brakes of any kind couldn't handle. I have ridden high end hydraulic disc brake equipped bikes Off Road and I am underwhelmed....(horrible return on investment, IMO).

So no, I am not getting fleeced anytime soon. But that's maybe because I have been around the block before when/as new technology was introduced.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I buy bikes pretty infrequently and ride them into the ground. My next couple frames will be rim brake frames and if I have to hunt to find new old stock frames to buy I will. I'm also looking forward to prices dropping pretty aggressively on wheel sets. I also ride those till their dead. So a disc brake roady (no TT bikes) is a long way off.
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to have an ever-increasing appetite for attention. How can I help? Do you need a hug or something?
Last edited by: trail: Jan 8, 17 21:48
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [georged] [ In reply to ]
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georged wrote:
The Huffy was a nice bike.

Was it really a Huffy or a rebranded frame?

-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram
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Re: Welcome to the disc brake era. How will YOU navigate rapid equipment obsolescence? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
Either way, it's going to be expensive. The only thing that is possibly worse than being an early adopter right now is being a late one.

Like many, I'll have to disagree with you. It's like keeping hold of a good quality car; once you (or the original buyer) takes the initial depreciation hit, you're better off sticking to your guns, until trickle-down makes the newer 'better' stuff more affordable. In the meantime, what you drive or ride will still do you good service.

Case in point are my Zipp tubular wheels - funny old thing, I can still get top quality tyres for them....

29 years and counting
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