Monk,

I've put my ergomo/bike on the CT several times. Seems to work fine. The ergomo tends to read about 10 watts higher consistently yet it seems consistent....although if you concentrate on pushing harder with one leg vs. the other you can really change the numbers......not sure if that means anything.....

Dave

The Perceived Exertion meter also comes with a version 2.1 upgrade to the human brain. Its called the "Check Your Ego at the Door" service pack upgrade. By downloading this upgrade, your ego is uninstalled for the first 60 minutes of the bike and your cranks are disabled the moment your heartrate exceeds 140 bpm.

The only way perceived exertion works is if you install this field programmable upgrade to brain V1.0 that the standard human is deployed with in the field:

IF PE >= "Do I feel any burn in my legs ?"

THEN NEW EFFORT = 0.8x(Current Exertion level)

ELSE NEW EFFORT = Current Pace

If PE >="My lungs on fire and I can't maintain a conversation"

THEN NEW PACE = 0.8x(Current Exertion Level)

ELSE NEW EFFORT = Current Pace

You'll need to install the latest McAfee virus scan, as there are many viruses prevelant in the water at race site that will contaminate and disable the above code by the time you get to the bike...

If you fail to install the virus scan, this following code that comes with the standard v1.0 brain is "re-enabled"

IF PE >="My legs and lungs are on fire"

THEN Finishing Time = 1.2x(Projected Finish Time)

The V2.1 "Check Your Ego at the Door" service pack upgrade is currently available for customers at Ironman and half ironmans worldwide. You can buy it for $999 per month through your authorized local VARs (coaches), or you can get it as a free download from www.perceived-exertion-rules.com.

:-)

Dev

I hear that A. Coggan and H. Allen are working up a book. Publish date is rumored to be late this year. When it comes out, I'm sure you'll hear about it here and on every bike website around. Wait for that -- I'm sure it will be TSTWKT.[/reply]

Big Cheese Press? :-)

TSTWKT?

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Josef
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blog

Dev Paul raced LP and did these times?

Never heard that before on this forum.

What about powertap and usually HR in the race? I keep thinking about this option.

I'm even considering the POlar power meter, but I'm told that they are prone to some error. Is it significant for MOP riders? (It sure is cheaper, and I already have the 700 series watch.)

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

The solution is simple, you buy a powertap to train on with your powercranks and a SRM/Ergomo to race on with your Renn disc.

I tried that argument with my wife.....it didnt work!

I asked them tonight and got an answer already, as follows: Greg Copied below is the latest for Ergomo Pro, images of the crankset on the site in a few days. Many of the existing Ergomo Sport customers have CT, and there have never been any reports of interference. Ergomo uses optical sensors, and only the signal, not any primary RF, is generated by the system.

Ergomo customers: The new 2006 Ergomo Pro powermeter system is contracted for delivery in mid December. The initial shipments will not cover the demand, or the waiting list we currently have. In order to be fair to everyone, we are going to take deposits on systems and Pro computers for use with existing sensors beginning today. Please email me for further information. This information just became available, and is not yet on the website. After our existing customers have an opportunity to respond, we will post this information to our site, along with more images of the new system and the price list. ISO square taper sensor sysytems for use with Campagnolo Record/Chorus cranks, or the new Ergomo Pro Carbon cranks are available. Octalink may also be reserved now to ensure fastest delivery. Copied below are some of the features of the new 2006 ergomo Pro. Ergomo Pro system complete: $1,599 Ergomo Pro Carbon Crank $299 Ergomo Pro Carbon Compact $299 Ergomo Pro Computer $699 Ergomo Sensor Only $899 Randy www.bicyclepowermeters.com 434 846 4750 Today the retail price has been announced from the manufacturer at $1,599 for the Ergomo Pro power system without crankset. Only ISO bb Ergomo will be available at this time for use with Campi Record/Chorus cranks, or the separate ISO compatible Ergomo Pro carbon cranks, price not yet announced. The Ergomo carbon crank is especially nice, and results in the lightest power system available. Check the website soon for exact weight chart, the carbon compact crankset is 560g, and the bb sensor is 270g and the computer is 80g. There are extensive new features in the 2006 Ergomo Pro including altimiter,rate of climb, interval marking/averaging on board, switchable Eng/Metric units/multiple lanquages, adjustable recording time, Coggan TSS and Intensity Factor scoring built in, included cyclingpeakssoftware package, flash upgradeable microprocessor for instant online updates of new features, multiple bike/rider capability, and much more. Ergomo Pro with Ergomo carbon cranks, or without cranks for Campi Record/Chorus in English bb will be available early December. Check out the new super stiff Ergomo carbon cranks in compact or standard chainrings online. Watch our new site for updates,pricing and complete images by the end of October. Demand will outpace supply when these are first available, and we will take deposits as soon as price is set by the manufacturer. You will recieve email notice when we have an availability date, sometime in the next few weeks. Randy www.bicyclepowermeters.com

Wait for Hunter and Andy's book rather than buy some other book, but start schooling yourself now. I'd recommend reading the first six articles here and then to subscribe to the wattage list on Topica.com:

http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/

Rich Strauss also has some good articles/training plans which he discusses over on Gordo's board.

Definitely nothing wrong with a MOP or even BOP having a power meter. I'd agree that it's probably the most logical thing to buy, other than perhaps some swim lessons if you swim as slowly as I do. If you're MOP because of time constraints on your training time, becoming an informed power meter user will certainly help you get the most fitness out of the least cycling time.

Rather than spend $1,600 for the Ergomo Pro, I'd sell the Renn, and get a PowerTap Pro with a 20% off coupon at Performance or at some other place which gives you a discount. But if the price difference isn't a big issue, it'd also be nice to have the altimeter and the displayed IF/TSS values of the Ergomo Pro.

I'm not sure what people mean by measurements coming from the left side. The "brush things" that measure are on the spindle, so it doesn't matter whether you are pedaling with the left or right leg, it still reads as power. I certainly did plenty of one-legged (with PCs) pedaling and noticed no differences.

Also, unless I misread this info, the Ergomo readout shows the actual watts at the time you are pedaling. The sampling rate is what it records to download later. If you recorded one-second sampling for a six-hour ride then the file would be enormous and probably not really necessary. And it would take about 15-20 minutes to download.

The ergomo works just fine with PCs.

Chad

I am aspiring to be an MOPer. Bought a PT two motnhs ago and cannot say enough good about it. Have already increased my 20 minute wattage by 10 watts according to the last test.
It will be worth the money if you aspire to improve. Lot of good software for it and much collective wisdom for workouts.
Go for it.

fal7 in Houston

I'm with you. I borrowed a power meter for a couple of months. It's great for focused high intensity workouts and to track your progress, but whenever I went out on the road, i barely looked at it. If I'm in a race, all i need to know is if somebody is ahead of me (which there usually is), and that means I have to go faster.

however, when did 10:33 become MOP?? maybe the front of the middle of the pack...or back of the front of the pack...but certainly not MOP.

Wow, you sure convinced me.

I'm not sure what people mean by measurements coming from the left side. The "brush things" that measure are on the spindle, so it doesn't matter whether you are pedaling with the left or right leg, it still reads as power. I certainly did plenty of one-legged (with PCs) pedaling and noticed no differences.

Also, unless I misread this info, the Ergomo readout shows the actual watts at the time you are pedaling. The sampling rate is what it records to download later. If you recorded one-second sampling for a six-hour ride then the file would be enormous and probably not really necessary. And it would take about 15-20 minutes to download.

The ergomo works just fine with PCs.

Chad

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Here's a quote copied from the website that Tom Fort provided above (from the first FAQ link):

"Although both the Ergomo and SRM measure the torque, or twisting force, generated by the rider’s leg(s), the Ergomo measures it at the bottom bracket, whereas with the SRM, it is measured between the chainrings and the right crank arm. When you push down with the left pedal, that torque is transmitted through the bottom bracket spindle, to the spider, and then to the chainrings. When you push down with your right leg, however, the torque is transmitted only through the spider to the chainrings – none is transferred to the bottom bracket spindle, hence, the Ergomo measures the power output of the left leg only (and then doubles it), whereas the SRM measures the power output of both legs. (If you use your right leg to help lift your left back to the top of the stroke – and many of us do – then there is some torque applied to the bottom bracket spindle. This is, however, considerably smaller than the torque generated during the downstroke with either leg, furthermore, it is in the opposite direction.) Some therefore claim that an imbalance between left and right leg strength (due perhaps to an injury or even just occurring normally) renders the Ergomo inaccurate, even as it may give consistent and repeatable values, however, this has yet to be demonstrated."

From what I've read so far, I'd agree that one second sampling is probably a bit overkill for a six hour ride.

I recently read an article featuring Chris Boardman, who was one of the most "into the numbers" cyclists of the '90's. He stated that power meters are really for training, so you know where you are at and can make adjustments to your training on that basis. They aren't really for pacing, since they measure only the output and not the cost of the output. HR & perceived exertion give a better (not perfect, but better) indication of pacing in a race.

As far as your troubles in IM's re: pacing, I would suggest (never having done an IM, but plenty of 7-8 hour rides). that the issue is really to improve self-discipline at the start.

By all means, get one for training, use it to track your progress. Get whichever one has better software analysis tools, finer sampling frequency, other features you can use to correlate data. I think all of the systems (SRM, Powertap and ergomo) have HR, and obviously normal bike functions, but do all of them have altitude, for example?Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter).

Personally, I would probably get a Computrainer, and use that as my tool to measure progress. Then I can also do Hawaii from the comfort of my living room !!

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

LOL!!! It must be the damn viruses in the water that got me. I've certainly swallowed more than my share of water during the swim.

My coach encouraged me to get a PT. He said it would help me (a mid to bop'er) more than it would help him (as a pro). There has been an almost 25% increase in my power since I got it in February.

As long as you use it correctly, it would be the least poseurish equipment you could buy with the highest price tag. If I had the extra $$$, it would be bought.

Just the opposite...HR is possibly the worst indicator of effort in the early stages of a race.

Get the PM and have your bike setup checked by someone who is familiar with aerodynamics. The 2 best things you can do for your riding besides training.

"They aren't really for pacing, since they measure only the output and not the cost of the output. HR & perceived exertion give a better (not perfect, but better) indication of pacing in a race. "

Isn't that what normalized power attempts to show? The new Ergomo will show normalized power on the display in addition to raw power output.


"Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter)."

Others have said that it actually gives a better sense of whether you're having a really good or bad day if you use power as the primary measure (which is completely objective and independent of factors affecting HR and PE) and then you use PE and HR to gauge if the power output is appropriate (if you're really on or off that day). I'm curious to hear why people that train with power wouldn't use this approach and race with power. Personally, I often feel that I'm flying blind in races when I'm using HR as my primary pacing tool, as there seems to be very little correlation between HR that I observe in training at a given pace, and the HR in a race at that same pace. Maybe I don't race enough and it's nerves. Maybe I don't ride after swimming enough and haven't factored that effect. Maybe I just need to check my ego. In any case, I'm looking for something better than HR to guide me in race pacing. This is the primary problem statement for me.

true. That's why I said self discipline. HR normally settles within 15 minutes, not a big deal in an IM length race. Taking it easy for the first hour of an IM race certainly won't hurt your race.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Chris Boardman ...stated that power meters are really for training, so you know where you are at and can make adjustments to your training on that basis. They aren't really for pacing,

Something to remember here is that Boardman didn't have to get off his bike and run after his races. All he had to do was make it to the finish line, so he could afford a little fudge factor when it came to pacing by perceived exertion. His time trials were generally not longer than 60K and in grand tours he didn't exactly go into them with fresh legs. Triathletes on the other hand, must run afterwards, have longer distances to ride and come into their A races with very fresh legs--plus they don't have the experience of a guy who has probably been riding all his life. For the average triathlete going longer than Olympic distance, a power meter is a very effective pacing tool.

Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter).
I will agree and disagree with you here. You are correct a powermeter will not tell you if you are having a great day. However, since most of us are eternal optimists, we very often go out at a pace that we "hope" to hold and then fitness limitations disabuse us of those hopes. Sometimes it won't show up on the bike, but will take to the halfway point of the run before you crash and burn. The longer the distance you race, the more useful a power meter is to use as a pacing tool. Based of the number of people who have said they had to walk during an IM marathon, I would say just about everyone could use some form of pacing tool to tell them to slow down on the bike.

A year of racing with a power meter has shown me that triathletes and duathletes are very poor at using perceived exertion to determine race pace. I have ridden a number of races, both hilly and flat where I maintained a very even pace (powerwise) throughout the race and inevitably, riders who blew by me early on suddenly come back to me late in the ride without me having ever increased their pace—and they still have to run afterwards.

Chad

P.S. In those months of racing I did have one “great day” where the power meter let me down. I realized about 2/3rds of the way through the ride that I was just sandbagging, regardless of the numbers and just punched it. My ride for 1:30 nearly equaled my CP30 from three weeks earlier and I ran an incredible split afterwards. Generally though, the PM keeps me in check and lets me ride and run at the paces I am capable of maintaining, not the paces I would like to hold.

<<As far as your troubles in IM's re: pacing, I would suggest (never having done an IM, but plenty of 7-8 hour rides). that the issue is really to improve self-discipline at the start.>>

There is absolute NO comparison to a 7-8 hour ride ( I can and have done those in my sleep) and trying to race (I've failed twice at that, ended up participating in the 'run portion' where they graciously allow me to shuffle and walk) in an Ironman.

Power is the best way to guage early IM bike effort. Of course, you need some data from training to know what you plan on averaging in terms of watts for the ride. Then if you stay within yourself and allow some small variation for conditions (don't keep pushing if it's 100 degrees and windy), you'll be fine.

I'll defer to those folks who have done IM's. Just saying where I think that I would get the most benefit from a PM, i.e. helping to build self-awareness, which is suprisingly accurate one you have trained it.



I would argue that there isn't much of a fudge factor when it comes to being able to win pro-level TT's, Olympic gold, world championships, set world records, etc. The distances may be different, but the level of precision required isn't.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The only thing that proves is that your CP30 value from 3 weeks earlier was wrong nothing more.

I would argue that there isn't much of a fudge factor when it comes to being able to win pro-level TT's, Olympic gold, world championships, set world records, etc. The distances may be different, but the level of precision required isn't.
Ok, perhaps fudge factor didn't really explain my idea very well. Most of Boardman's most noted wins were in very short races--ie prologues and the Olympic pursuit. Those races are raced at near max effort and you don't really have a need for pacing. Triathlons are different. They do require some intelligent pacing and inexperience and sometimes even experience riders are not very good at it.

Chad

P.S. We won't really know whether Boardman might have gone faster in his races if he had a PM to use for pace. Just because someone did something well, doesn't mean they did it perfectly. For most athletes there is always some room for improvement.