You listed all of the reason why to have one. If you want to improve, it makes no difference where you are in the pack. A power meter will help. I have the Ergomo and can't say enough good about it. I also have the updated computer on order so I am a Ergomo believer. I say go for it.

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Doug in Michigan

My own intuition is that a powermeter it the most legit high tech goodie for a MOPer to have, because it's about the engine rather than free speed. I'd look at a fat guy with a powertap less suspiciously than I would a fat guy with a disc. But, that's just my two elitist cents.

Not sure I am going to vote as the stupidest or smartest but it will help you improve your cycling so why not if you have the $. I don't think it matters where you ride, just that you want it to get better and not just as an accessory. Maybe training with it will help you get to FOP?

It's worth more than any other single thing you can spend money on, even moreso in the MOP. The worst part of doing an IM with MOP fitness is blowing up and walking 20 miles (let's face it -- over half the people in an IM walk at least half the run). The powermeter will 100% guarantee you won't bike too hard (if you learn to use it and listen to it). It will make anybody's IM experience better.

BTW -- you could save some money by getting a powertap standard.

How much are they charging for the CPU upgrade? I asked about any special trade-in prices and they said there were none but failed to even say if I could get an upgrade. I like the ergomo for it's flexibility of wheel choice but I'm not too happy with the company; I've been waiting 2+ months for one of my BBs to get repaired by them.

I don't know much about ther Ergomo, but I am a huge fan of the PowerTap. It forces me to train harder than I normally would, which is great. I will be racing with it in CdA this summer. I have an SL laced to an Aerohead rim. The whole unit cost just about $1k including the cycling peaks software and the mount for my other bike (screaming deal). I am still thinking of getting one on my 404 for racing.

I have been training with it for about 6 weeks now.

The quote I got was $699 for CPU only (if you want to use the old BB) and $1599 for the whole unit. Ergomo cranks are another $299 if you're so inclined. Delivery early Dec for Campy square taper, late Dec for Octalink- taking deposits now.

The main reasons why I don't want a Powertap or SRM are:

a) race with a Renn disk
b) train with Powercranks

Otherwise, I'd agree that it's a less expensive option.

I put my $200 deposit on a new computer today with Randy. He said a dec 10th delivery date was realistic.

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Doug in Michigan

in my opinion (6+ years racing/coaching with power), a power meter would save you more time in a race then either a Renn disk or power cranks.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

in my opinion (6+ years racing/coaching with power), a power meter would save you more time in a race then either a Renn disk or power cranks.

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Fair enough, but since I already have both of those, would it not make sense to buy a power meter that allows me to keep using them both?

oops did not realize you were the one who posted originally...yea, then perfect, now you have all the goodies. Do u know if the ergomo is still measured only on one side?

Like others have said...learn to use it and the software. I know lots of folks who NEVER download the files and even 2 or 3 people that did not know to torgue zero their PT...so the data was always screwed up.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Whats so special about the Renn disk? Just buy a wheel cover and pocket the price difference without sacrificing 'any' speed.

ot

As far as I know the BB hasn't changed so yes, the measurements still come from only the left side. All the "Rosetta Stone" type comparisons with SRM's and Powertaps show a very good correlation in readings though, so it doesn't seem to affect accuracy at all. If anything, the biggest source of discrepancy in measurements between the Ergomo and SRM or Powertap was the 5 second sampling rate, which has been fixed on the new computer. It can record as frequently as every 1 second.

I find its pretty rare to have to re-zero the torque on my PT...maybe once every 3 months or so on average.

ot

out here in the east, with the temp swings, I have to do it more often. Plus I have 5 wheels and only 3 CPU's so I need to make sure they jive.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

I sold my Renn and bought a PT and a disc cover. Net net, that's a lot less money than an Ergomo. A PT will work very nicely with your PCs. I'm wondering about how the Ergomo would respond to PCs...? I guess it would be ok.

Anyway -- it's all good. You can't go wrong either way.

Do you know of any good reading to (learn how to use it and listen to it). It's fun watching the power levels but I know there is more to it.



Thanks

Mike

I do a lot of training on the CT, and I am curious whether anyone has had any experience with the Ergomo sensor causing interference with the CT units.

Hey, I am exactly in the same boat as you 5:40 bike at LP, 3:44 run, 10:33. No way I'd spend $1600 on measuring power on the fly. As much as people swear by it, between perceived exertion and heartrate, I have enough data for my Middle of Pack needs. Also if I really want to know power, I just used my Tacx trainer and I know what perceived exertion equates to 200W vs 250W vs 300W vs 350W and I can take perceived exertion with me on the road, and it will never crap out in bad whether or electrical malfunction.

My problem is that my perceived exersion meter craps out when exposed to high amounts of adrenaline. This has screwed me to various extents in all distances of racing but it's potentially catastrophic at 1/2 IM and IM distance for me.

One of the biggest reasons I enjoy my Ergomo is it provides more motivation for training. I don't like seeing those big gaps in my training calandar with no miles logged, or rides with low average power. If I'm riding the trainer, it gives me a lot more motivation to try and hit a good average or reach a record. It's probably the engineer nerd in me, but I like looking that the graphs after my workout and I base my training on improving my numbers, and comparing myself with previous seasons.

It's great to have for racing too, but if I had to chose I'd train with power and race without it.

I hear that A. Coggan and H. Allen are working up a book. Publish date is rumored to be late this year. When it comes out, I'm sure you'll hear about it here and on every bike website around. Wait for that -- I'm sure it will be TSTWKT.

Duuuuude...the idea is to move out of the MOP!

Monk,

I've put my ergomo/bike on the CT several times. Seems to work fine. The ergomo tends to read about 10 watts higher consistently yet it seems consistent....although if you concentrate on pushing harder with one leg vs. the other you can really change the numbers......not sure if that means anything.....

Dave

The Perceived Exertion meter also comes with a version 2.1 upgrade to the human brain. Its called the "Check Your Ego at the Door" service pack upgrade. By downloading this upgrade, your ego is uninstalled for the first 60 minutes of the bike and your cranks are disabled the moment your heartrate exceeds 140 bpm.

The only way perceived exertion works is if you install this field programmable upgrade to brain V1.0 that the standard human is deployed with in the field:

IF PE >= "Do I feel any burn in my legs ?"

THEN NEW EFFORT = 0.8x(Current Exertion level)

ELSE NEW EFFORT = Current Pace

If PE >="My lungs on fire and I can't maintain a conversation"

THEN NEW PACE = 0.8x(Current Exertion Level)

ELSE NEW EFFORT = Current Pace

You'll need to install the latest McAfee virus scan, as there are many viruses prevelant in the water at race site that will contaminate and disable the above code by the time you get to the bike...

If you fail to install the virus scan, this following code that comes with the standard v1.0 brain is "re-enabled"

IF PE >="My legs and lungs are on fire"

THEN Finishing Time = 1.2x(Projected Finish Time)

The V2.1 "Check Your Ego at the Door" service pack upgrade is currently available for customers at Ironman and half ironmans worldwide. You can buy it for $999 per month through your authorized local VARs (coaches), or you can get it as a free download from www.perceived-exertion-rules.com.

:-)

Dev

I hear that A. Coggan and H. Allen are working up a book. Publish date is rumored to be late this year. When it comes out, I'm sure you'll hear about it here and on every bike website around. Wait for that -- I'm sure it will be TSTWKT.[/reply]

Big Cheese Press? :-)

TSTWKT?

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Josef
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blog

Dev Paul raced LP and did these times?

Never heard that before on this forum.

What about powertap and usually HR in the race? I keep thinking about this option.

I'm even considering the POlar power meter, but I'm told that they are prone to some error. Is it significant for MOP riders? (It sure is cheaper, and I already have the 700 series watch.)

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

The solution is simple, you buy a powertap to train on with your powercranks and a SRM/Ergomo to race on with your Renn disc.

I tried that argument with my wife.....it didnt work!

I asked them tonight and got an answer already, as follows: Greg Copied below is the latest for Ergomo Pro, images of the crankset on the site in a few days. Many of the existing Ergomo Sport customers have CT, and there have never been any reports of interference. Ergomo uses optical sensors, and only the signal, not any primary RF, is generated by the system.

Ergomo customers: The new 2006 Ergomo Pro powermeter system is contracted for delivery in mid December. The initial shipments will not cover the demand, or the waiting list we currently have. In order to be fair to everyone, we are going to take deposits on systems and Pro computers for use with existing sensors beginning today. Please email me for further information. This information just became available, and is not yet on the website. After our existing customers have an opportunity to respond, we will post this information to our site, along with more images of the new system and the price list. ISO square taper sensor sysytems for use with Campagnolo Record/Chorus cranks, or the new Ergomo Pro Carbon cranks are available. Octalink may also be reserved now to ensure fastest delivery. Copied below are some of the features of the new 2006 ergomo Pro. Ergomo Pro system complete: $1,599 Ergomo Pro Carbon Crank $299 Ergomo Pro Carbon Compact $299 Ergomo Pro Computer $699 Ergomo Sensor Only $899 Randy www.bicyclepowermeters.com 434 846 4750 Today the retail price has been announced from the manufacturer at $1,599 for the Ergomo Pro power system without crankset. Only ISO bb Ergomo will be available at this time for use with Campi Record/Chorus cranks, or the separate ISO compatible Ergomo Pro carbon cranks, price not yet announced. The Ergomo carbon crank is especially nice, and results in the lightest power system available. Check the website soon for exact weight chart, the carbon compact crankset is 560g, and the bb sensor is 270g and the computer is 80g. There are extensive new features in the 2006 Ergomo Pro including altimiter,rate of climb, interval marking/averaging on board, switchable Eng/Metric units/multiple lanquages, adjustable recording time, Coggan TSS and Intensity Factor scoring built in, included cyclingpeakssoftware package, flash upgradeable microprocessor for instant online updates of new features, multiple bike/rider capability, and much more. Ergomo Pro with Ergomo carbon cranks, or without cranks for Campi Record/Chorus in English bb will be available early December. Check out the new super stiff Ergomo carbon cranks in compact or standard chainrings online. Watch our new site for updates,pricing and complete images by the end of October. Demand will outpace supply when these are first available, and we will take deposits as soon as price is set by the manufacturer. You will recieve email notice when we have an availability date, sometime in the next few weeks. Randy www.bicyclepowermeters.com

Wait for Hunter and Andy's book rather than buy some other book, but start schooling yourself now. I'd recommend reading the first six articles here and then to subscribe to the wattage list on Topica.com:

http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/

Rich Strauss also has some good articles/training plans which he discusses over on Gordo's board.

Definitely nothing wrong with a MOP or even BOP having a power meter. I'd agree that it's probably the most logical thing to buy, other than perhaps some swim lessons if you swim as slowly as I do. If you're MOP because of time constraints on your training time, becoming an informed power meter user will certainly help you get the most fitness out of the least cycling time.

Rather than spend $1,600 for the Ergomo Pro, I'd sell the Renn, and get a PowerTap Pro with a 20% off coupon at Performance or at some other place which gives you a discount. But if the price difference isn't a big issue, it'd also be nice to have the altimeter and the displayed IF/TSS values of the Ergomo Pro.

I'm not sure what people mean by measurements coming from the left side. The "brush things" that measure are on the spindle, so it doesn't matter whether you are pedaling with the left or right leg, it still reads as power. I certainly did plenty of one-legged (with PCs) pedaling and noticed no differences.

Also, unless I misread this info, the Ergomo readout shows the actual watts at the time you are pedaling. The sampling rate is what it records to download later. If you recorded one-second sampling for a six-hour ride then the file would be enormous and probably not really necessary. And it would take about 15-20 minutes to download.

The ergomo works just fine with PCs.

Chad

I am aspiring to be an MOPer. Bought a PT two motnhs ago and cannot say enough good about it. Have already increased my 20 minute wattage by 10 watts according to the last test.
It will be worth the money if you aspire to improve. Lot of good software for it and much collective wisdom for workouts.
Go for it.

fal7 in Houston

I'm with you. I borrowed a power meter for a couple of months. It's great for focused high intensity workouts and to track your progress, but whenever I went out on the road, i barely looked at it. If I'm in a race, all i need to know is if somebody is ahead of me (which there usually is), and that means I have to go faster.

however, when did 10:33 become MOP?? maybe the front of the middle of the pack...or back of the front of the pack...but certainly not MOP.

Wow, you sure convinced me.

I'm not sure what people mean by measurements coming from the left side. The "brush things" that measure are on the spindle, so it doesn't matter whether you are pedaling with the left or right leg, it still reads as power. I certainly did plenty of one-legged (with PCs) pedaling and noticed no differences.

Also, unless I misread this info, the Ergomo readout shows the actual watts at the time you are pedaling. The sampling rate is what it records to download later. If you recorded one-second sampling for a six-hour ride then the file would be enormous and probably not really necessary. And it would take about 15-20 minutes to download.

The ergomo works just fine with PCs.

Chad

-----------------------------------------------------------

Here's a quote copied from the website that Tom Fort provided above (from the first FAQ link):

"Although both the Ergomo and SRM measure the torque, or twisting force, generated by the rider’s leg(s), the Ergomo measures it at the bottom bracket, whereas with the SRM, it is measured between the chainrings and the right crank arm. When you push down with the left pedal, that torque is transmitted through the bottom bracket spindle, to the spider, and then to the chainrings. When you push down with your right leg, however, the torque is transmitted only through the spider to the chainrings – none is transferred to the bottom bracket spindle, hence, the Ergomo measures the power output of the left leg only (and then doubles it), whereas the SRM measures the power output of both legs. (If you use your right leg to help lift your left back to the top of the stroke – and many of us do – then there is some torque applied to the bottom bracket spindle. This is, however, considerably smaller than the torque generated during the downstroke with either leg, furthermore, it is in the opposite direction.) Some therefore claim that an imbalance between left and right leg strength (due perhaps to an injury or even just occurring normally) renders the Ergomo inaccurate, even as it may give consistent and repeatable values, however, this has yet to be demonstrated."

From what I've read so far, I'd agree that one second sampling is probably a bit overkill for a six hour ride.

I recently read an article featuring Chris Boardman, who was one of the most "into the numbers" cyclists of the '90's. He stated that power meters are really for training, so you know where you are at and can make adjustments to your training on that basis. They aren't really for pacing, since they measure only the output and not the cost of the output. HR & perceived exertion give a better (not perfect, but better) indication of pacing in a race.

As far as your troubles in IM's re: pacing, I would suggest (never having done an IM, but plenty of 7-8 hour rides). that the issue is really to improve self-discipline at the start.

By all means, get one for training, use it to track your progress. Get whichever one has better software analysis tools, finer sampling frequency, other features you can use to correlate data. I think all of the systems (SRM, Powertap and ergomo) have HR, and obviously normal bike functions, but do all of them have altitude, for example?Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter).

Personally, I would probably get a Computrainer, and use that as my tool to measure progress. Then I can also do Hawaii from the comfort of my living room !!

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

LOL!!! It must be the damn viruses in the water that got me. I've certainly swallowed more than my share of water during the swim.

My coach encouraged me to get a PT. He said it would help me (a mid to bop'er) more than it would help him (as a pro). There has been an almost 25% increase in my power since I got it in February.

As long as you use it correctly, it would be the least poseurish equipment you could buy with the highest price tag. If I had the extra $$$, it would be bought.

Just the opposite...HR is possibly the worst indicator of effort in the early stages of a race.

Get the PM and have your bike setup checked by someone who is familiar with aerodynamics. The 2 best things you can do for your riding besides training.

"They aren't really for pacing, since they measure only the output and not the cost of the output. HR & perceived exertion give a better (not perfect, but better) indication of pacing in a race. "

Isn't that what normalized power attempts to show? The new Ergomo will show normalized power on the display in addition to raw power output.


"Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter)."

Others have said that it actually gives a better sense of whether you're having a really good or bad day if you use power as the primary measure (which is completely objective and independent of factors affecting HR and PE) and then you use PE and HR to gauge if the power output is appropriate (if you're really on or off that day). I'm curious to hear why people that train with power wouldn't use this approach and race with power. Personally, I often feel that I'm flying blind in races when I'm using HR as my primary pacing tool, as there seems to be very little correlation between HR that I observe in training at a given pace, and the HR in a race at that same pace. Maybe I don't race enough and it's nerves. Maybe I don't ride after swimming enough and haven't factored that effect. Maybe I just need to check my ego. In any case, I'm looking for something better than HR to guide me in race pacing. This is the primary problem statement for me.

true. That's why I said self discipline. HR normally settles within 15 minutes, not a big deal in an IM length race. Taking it easy for the first hour of an IM race certainly won't hurt your race.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Chris Boardman ...stated that power meters are really for training, so you know where you are at and can make adjustments to your training on that basis. They aren't really for pacing,

Something to remember here is that Boardman didn't have to get off his bike and run after his races. All he had to do was make it to the finish line, so he could afford a little fudge factor when it came to pacing by perceived exertion. His time trials were generally not longer than 60K and in grand tours he didn't exactly go into them with fresh legs. Triathletes on the other hand, must run afterwards, have longer distances to ride and come into their A races with very fresh legs--plus they don't have the experience of a guy who has probably been riding all his life. For the average triathlete going longer than Olympic distance, a power meter is a very effective pacing tool.

Use it in some "B" races so you get a baseline for when you are training. But don't bother with it in your A race, use the other tools at your disposal, since the PM won't tell you if you are having a bad day (or really good one for that matter).
I will agree and disagree with you here. You are correct a powermeter will not tell you if you are having a great day. However, since most of us are eternal optimists, we very often go out at a pace that we "hope" to hold and then fitness limitations disabuse us of those hopes. Sometimes it won't show up on the bike, but will take to the halfway point of the run before you crash and burn. The longer the distance you race, the more useful a power meter is to use as a pacing tool. Based of the number of people who have said they had to walk during an IM marathon, I would say just about everyone could use some form of pacing tool to tell them to slow down on the bike.

A year of racing with a power meter has shown me that triathletes and duathletes are very poor at using perceived exertion to determine race pace. I have ridden a number of races, both hilly and flat where I maintained a very even pace (powerwise) throughout the race and inevitably, riders who blew by me early on suddenly come back to me late in the ride without me having ever increased their pace—and they still have to run afterwards.

Chad

P.S. In those months of racing I did have one “great day” where the power meter let me down. I realized about 2/3rds of the way through the ride that I was just sandbagging, regardless of the numbers and just punched it. My ride for 1:30 nearly equaled my CP30 from three weeks earlier and I ran an incredible split afterwards. Generally though, the PM keeps me in check and lets me ride and run at the paces I am capable of maintaining, not the paces I would like to hold.

<<As far as your troubles in IM's re: pacing, I would suggest (never having done an IM, but plenty of 7-8 hour rides). that the issue is really to improve self-discipline at the start.>>

There is absolute NO comparison to a 7-8 hour ride ( I can and have done those in my sleep) and trying to race (I've failed twice at that, ended up participating in the 'run portion' where they graciously allow me to shuffle and walk) in an Ironman.

Power is the best way to guage early IM bike effort. Of course, you need some data from training to know what you plan on averaging in terms of watts for the ride. Then if you stay within yourself and allow some small variation for conditions (don't keep pushing if it's 100 degrees and windy), you'll be fine.

I'll defer to those folks who have done IM's. Just saying where I think that I would get the most benefit from a PM, i.e. helping to build self-awareness, which is suprisingly accurate one you have trained it.



I would argue that there isn't much of a fudge factor when it comes to being able to win pro-level TT's, Olympic gold, world championships, set world records, etc. The distances may be different, but the level of precision required isn't.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The only thing that proves is that your CP30 value from 3 weeks earlier was wrong nothing more.

I would argue that there isn't much of a fudge factor when it comes to being able to win pro-level TT's, Olympic gold, world championships, set world records, etc. The distances may be different, but the level of precision required isn't.
Ok, perhaps fudge factor didn't really explain my idea very well. Most of Boardman's most noted wins were in very short races--ie prologues and the Olympic pursuit. Those races are raced at near max effort and you don't really have a need for pacing. Triathlons are different. They do require some intelligent pacing and inexperience and sometimes even experience riders are not very good at it.

Chad

P.S. We won't really know whether Boardman might have gone faster in his races if he had a PM to use for pace. Just because someone did something well, doesn't mean they did it perfectly. For most athletes there is always some room for improvement.

In Reply To:

P.S. In those months of racing I did have one “great day” where the power meter let me down. I realized about 2/3rds of the way through the ride that I was just sandbagging, regardless of the numbers and just punched it. My ride for 1:30 nearly equaled my CP30 from three weeks earlier and I ran an incredible split afterwards. Generally though, the PM keeps me in check and lets me ride and run at the paces I am capable of maintaining, not the paces I would like to hold

I tend to go OK just on HR for the half IM distance. out of curiosity, how much does going too hard for the first 15 minutes of an IM and then settling in to your "right" pace affect your run, if you have several hours to go.

My thought process to this is that if you are having a bad day (it happens), power output will be down for a given level of exertion. So if you try to ride at the prescribed power output, then you are actually going too hard, no?

Where I do see power measurment being beneficial in a race situation is on hills, since there is a lag between changes in effort and the HR response. The PM can help you throttle back at the start of a climb, if your tendency is to ride hills too hard.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The only thing that proves is that your CP30 value from 3 weeks earlier was wrong nothing more.


How can a CP30 be wrong? It is what it is. It was the fastest I could ride for 30 minutes followed directly by a three-mile run TT. You try and control the factors to make it somewhat accurate, but it gives you something with which to work. Most of my races for the rest of the spring were pretty accurately gauged by that particular test. I just had "one of those days" when all the right factors came together and I was flying.

Chad

You need to pace yourself really well in a 4 minute event. It is not max effort from the start, as its impossible to sprint that distance. If you go out too hard you'll blow up big time. 2-4 minute events are actually some of the hardest to get right.

Boardman had a PM, he was one of the early adopters. He used it in training and in some races, to gather data so he and his coach could fine tune his training programme. He rode at least one TT in le Tour with the SRM handlebar unit strapped behind the seat.

I tend to trust what the pro's do, since they spend a lot more time thinking about their training program than the average AG'er. I don't see a lot of pro's (triathletes or cyclists) with PM's on their bikes at the big races. Some, but not a lot.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

<<I tend to trust what the pro's do, since they spend a lot more time thinking about their training program than the average AG'er. I don't see a lot of pro's (triathletes or cyclists) with PM's on their bikes at the big races. Some, but not a lot. >>

To the pros, pacing doesn't matter as much. Either they are faster then the people around them, or they are not. If they go out too hard and blow up (which many do), the only result is them not finishing and getting flamed on by a bunch of P3C riding, man bra wearing, types who can guess at wind tunnel results by a pic on some internet forum.

Most cyclists I know who race with a PM, only do so to look at the data later, and some will even put tape over the display to keep from looking at it and worrying during the race.

GREAT NEWS Cam... glad to hear that your PT is working out for you. Now you just need to get back on a TRI bike ;-)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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I tend to go OK just on HR for the half IM distance. out of curiosity, how much does going too hard for the first 15 minutes of an IM and then settling in to your "right" pace affect your run, if you have several hours to go.

I have never done an IM, however, a couple of friends who raced in Hawaii and swear by powermeters have noticed that people go really hard for much longer than 15 minutes and then blow up at the end of the ride. When you do this running, you end up walking. Which is much, much slower than running. If you do it on the bike, it may not be as noticeable, but I expect the effect would be similar. These same athletes passed a lot of people late in the ride and then ran solid marathons.

For Half-IM I use a combination of heart rate and power to keep tabs in the early part of the race.

My thought process to this is that if you are having a bad day (it happens), power output will be down for a given level of exertion. So if you try to ride at the prescribed power output, then you are actually going too hard, no?

This is totally correct. After my best ever half-IM last fall I raced another later in the year and just didn't have it that day. The power was down, heart rate and percieved exertion were up and I realized it was not my day. Had I been smart I would have bailed at T2. A bunch of my family had come to watch, so I felt a little obligated to give it a go. By mile 3, I was done and ended up in the ambulance. I have no idea what happened. I probably just bonked really hard at the end.

Where I do see power measurment being beneficial in a race situation is on hills, since there is a lag between changes in effort and the HR response. The PM can help you throttle back at the start of a climb, if your tendency is to ride hills too hard.

This is true as well. I raced duathlons at Camp Pendleton, Ca., Powerman North Carolina and Duathlon nationals and they were all rolling to moderate hills. This is how the ride went. I was out in front after the opening run and riders would start to go by, riding hard on the downhill or the first third of the climb. After about a third of the climb they would stop gaining on me as I find the right cadence and work into the hill. They tended to struggle along in too high a gear. Near the summit they will be slowing, thinking the hard work is done and I would roll right by them then, accelerating over the top. . This will annoy them and they would attack and go after me and pass again on the next downhill, starting the whole process over.

I learned another useful lesson at Du nationals when I was trying to get rid of a draft pack. I waited for a hill and then gunned it to try and catch them all at once. When I looked down at one point I saw 450 watts. That’s where the stupid meter kicked in and I stopped trying to ride away from them. It turned out to be a good choice. Most of the penalties in the race were given to that pack and I blew by all but one of them on the run. They put 90 seconds or so on my in the last 10-15K, but I outran most of them by three or four minutes in a 5K. Powermeters are not the answer to all of race pacings problems, but they sure are a useful tool to get the most from whatever God, your training and good timing have given you to work with on a particular day.

Chad

I tend to trust what the pro's do, since they spend a lot more time thinking about their training program than the average AG'er. I don't see a lot of pro's (triathletes or cyclists) with PM's on their bikes at the big races. Some, but not a lot.

What pro cyclists use in a race is not a great indicator of what may be useful to an age group triathlete. The pro cyclist is far more experienced, he doesn’t have to run after words and non-time trial events do not require linear efforts. An earlier thread told that roughly half the top-20 finishers at Hawaii this year used PMs, to include the winner, so that seems pretty good evidence that some pro triathletes think a PM is a good idea.

Thanks for the insight. Just wondering how many of those top 20 pros were using the PM to pace themselves, and how many were using it to gather data for their training programme? Just food for thought, I don't think any of us have the answer to that.

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Your post mentioned that your PM "let you down" and that you then kicked it and finished with a time nearly equal to your CP30. I read into that that your pacing was somehow linked to that CP30 value and you were going too slow as a result of that. Correct or am I way off? My point was that your CP30 value can be wrong even if it's your best effort on the day. Fatigue or lack of motivation can give you a low number. If in the race your CP90 (race time) was almost equal to your CP30 then clearly your test result was low.

Pacing with a PM only works if you have a really good idea what your FT or CP numbers really are. Not possible for a PM to let you down (unless it breaks) and provide bad pacing guidelines. Only incorrect assumptions about your power is can do that.

Yeah...screw using HR unless it is WAY off your expected readings. The people I see dismissing it have minimal or no experience using a PM. Or they want to apply it to road racing where it obviously has less value in that either you stay with the pack or get dropped.

There really isn't anything more powerful than performing a race simulation with power...its borderline cheating. To show up at the race knowing exactly what you are capable of and, more importantly, what you are not capable of is invaluable.

ot

All very good points. A powermeter is just a tool and not responsible for anything. However, it does give you a baseline with which to work and gives you some absolute numbers that you know are bad. For instance, during duathlon nationals this year I tried to get past a draft pack that formed up about 20-25K into the ride. I look down on one of my pass attempts and saw I was pushing 450 watts. I immediately abandoned the attempt and let the pack roll away. At the time the effort seemed hard but not impossible and without power feedback I might have kept on cranking those 450 watts for a bit and paid the price later.

As it was, I went on to a pretty good run and caught all or most of the 15 or so riders who were involved.



I think even the most experience riders misjudge the perceived exertion vs. actual output. Our brains and bodies are not machines. Of course, no one would ever break a record if they only went as fast as they thought they could go, so PM data has to be one part of the equation, but you should not be a slave to the numbers.



Chad

The time to test how hard you can go, IMHO, is during base building when you are doing your FT (functional threshold) intervals (used to approximate CP30 or CP60 watts). A typical FT test is 2x20' at FT watts with 2' rest, then you look at normalized watts for the entire time, and that's good enough to approximate CP60. So next ride say you are doing 3x12' (2') at FT watts, you can "test" whether you can go 5% higher. The test comes whether you can hold the same watts for all 3 intervals. If not, you aren't ready to go harder. If yes, then try again next time. Repeat until you get stronger.

Ride and test, ride and test, race (also a test), repeat. Nothing magic about it, just much easier with a PM.

I'd suggest buying, training and most importantly, racing with the power meter.

As someone who was previously really impressed with my perceived exertion-o-meter, and someone who does a LOT of TT's, and is only racing a bike (so you'd think I'd have it figured out), I'm come to the realization that my pacing is lousy--and I still think I'm better than most! I won't race without it again.

Also, the longer the event, the more difficult pacing can become, so I can't figure why you wouldn't pace a long TT without a PM, especially when you have to run afterwards.

There are a lot of great quotes in this thread:

1."I just used my Tacx trainer and I know what perceived exertion equates to 200W vs 250W vs 300W vs 350W and I can take perceived exertion with me on the road, and it will never crap out in bad whether or electrical malfunction."
that one's so ridiculous I don't know where to start

2".If I'm in a race, all i need to know is if somebody is ahead of me (which there usually is), and that means I have to go faster."
Pacing yourself on someone elses speed seems pretty foolish to me.

3."They aren't really for pacing, since they measure only the output and not the cost of the output. HR & perceived exertion give a better (not perfect, but better) indication of pacing in a race."

huh?? that's EXACTLY what they measure, the metabolic cost of the event??

4.I tend to trust what the pro's do, since they spend a lot more time thinking about their training program than the average AG'er. I don't see a lot of pro's (triathletes or cyclists) with PM's on their bikes at the big races. Some, but not a lot.

fast forward 5 years from now--do you think that you'll see any pro's racing w/o PM's...no way to tell for sure, but I know where my money is on that one. Way too many pros are too full of themselves to recognize their own limitations. Look at Brad Wiggin's worlds TT to see how a top, world-class TT'r can get it totally wrong in a big event.

As long as your competetors hold onto these beliefs, you'll have a competetive advantage using a PM.

A couple of my statements are in there, so I'll respond. To clarify, I never said that perceived exertion is perfect, and I think PM's can be a great training tool. For longer races and race simulations, I'll always use a HR monitor rather than rely only on RPE, but RPE is pretty accurate for me.

Maybe you can clear something up for me. How exactly does a PM measure metabolic cost? It doesn't measure anything happening inside your body, only the outcome. If you are having a bad day, the metabolic cost will be higher for a given power output.

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"How exactly does a PM measure metabolic cost? It doesn't measure anything happening inside your body, only the outcome. If you are having a bad day, the metabolic cost will be higher for a given power output."

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Raw power doesn't, but "normalized" power is intended to measure metabolic cost.

http://www.midweekclub.com/powerFAQ.htm#Q16

Q: What are “normalized” power, intensity factor, and training stress score?[/url]



A: Created by Andrew Coggan, Ph.D., a noted exercise physiologist, this is obtained via an algorithm that adjusts for variations in power with reference to lactate threshold and other physiological responses.



Suppose you race a 1 hour criterium, where you are frequently sprinting out of corners, covering breaks, etc., and you race to your limit, such that there are very few if any slack periods. Average power with coasting time will nonetheless be considerably lower than a flat 1 hour time trial where you paced steadily and had nothing left at the end, yet you feel just as stressed physically. The normalizing algorithm adjusts for variations in power, such that the resulting normalized power value will be very close to what you would have achieved in a TT of equivalent duration. In short, it is meant to more accurately reflect the actual metabolic strain that the body incurs, rather than the average stress load imposed.



Here’s how it is calculated: first, a rolling 30-second average (mean of the last 30 seconds) is applied to the wattage values from the downloaded workout file, since the body does not respond instantaneously to rapid changes in exercise intensity, rather, most physiological responses follow a predictable time course with a half-life of approximately 30 seconds. Next, each of the values obtained from this is raised to the 4th power, just as blood lactate response has been shown to closely fit the plot of y = x4, where y = blood lactate and x = power output; indeed, many critical physiological responses (e.g., glycogen utilization, lactate production, stress hormone levels) are similarly related to exercise intensity in a curvilinear, rather than linear relationship. Finally, all these values are averaged, and the 4th root is taken.



If that all seems a bit complex, just think of adjusted power as the equivalent power you would have achieved if the race course had been perfectly flat and the pace perfectly steady, with no variations.



Two other metrics of workout performance, intensity factor (IF) and training stress score (TSS), are derived from normalized power, though space considerations preclude further discussion; the previously-mentioned CyclingPeaks Software includes all three of these features and has a nice explanatory article as well, at http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/defined.html, while there is a free on-line calculator at http://www.virtusphysica.com/htmlspecialedition2003.htm.

"normalized" power is intended to measure metabolic cost.

OK. Seems like a good training tool for data analysis post event. but how is normalised power going to help during a race? I don't see the benefit above and beyond a HR monitor.

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"For longer races and race simulations, I'll always use a HR monitor rather than rely only on RPE, but RPE is pretty accurate for me."

All I can say to that statement is, I thought the exact same thing. Luckily for me, I raced with my powertap head and a rear disc--so I was still able to download the files. Without boring you to death with the numbers, I did some crunching on Analytic Cycling (yeah, I know I have too much free time) and figured that over my last 40km TT, I could have ridden about 2 minutes faster with the exact same average power-mid (52min vs. mid 54min), had I not ridden the first half WAY too fast.
The next 10 mile TT I did (with the tap and a wheel cover) was about 30 seconds faster than a previous 10 miler on the same course--with much worse fitness, and about 20 fewer watts.

As far as a power meter measuring the metabolic cost, unless your 'bad day' is the result of decreasing mechanical efficiency (I'm guessing this is pretty unlikely), a PM is exactly measuring the metabolic response, or the rate of demand on your muscles, by measuring force.
The only way the 'metabolic cost will be higher for a given power output' is if somehow you've become less efficient, or de-trained.

...or if you drank 12 beers the nite before :-)

OK. Seems like a good training tool for data analysis post event. but how is normalised power going to help during a race? I don't see the benefit above and beyond a HR monitor.

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The Ergomo shows normalized power in the display so you understand the impact of periods of higher effort real-time (like a climb in the middle of an IM bike leg).

http://www.bicyclepowermeters.com/Computer2.html

ergomo® Normalized Power (NP)

NP is calculated using a special formula that both smooths and weights your power output to better reflect the physiological (especially metabolic) “costs” of variable-intensity efforts. The value of NP is shown in watts. While competing in an criterium, for example, your average power might be 200 watts, whereas the NP is 250 watts because of the frequent high intensity sprints after each corner.

"The only way the 'metabolic cost will be higher for a given power output' is if somehow you've become less efficient, or de-trained."

Like if you are starting to come down with a cold, or were up all night tending a crying baby, or had bad sushi the night before, or ............ Any of that stuff impacts on performance.



Pretty impressive TT's. Were the courses flat or 'sporting'. re: your 40km TT, didn't HR show the same thing, i.e. that you went out way too hard???

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"Bad days" are usually caused by poor pacing...

Not specifically about normalized power, but there was an interesting study in which the subjects did a self-paced 40K TT, then did subsequent TTs wherein they went out (for a few minutes or more) either 15% above or 15% below their average power of the first TT, and self-selected effort thereafter. Their times for the 15% below TT were significantly better than the self-paced TT, and worse for the 15% (IIRC). Bottom line: power in a TT is very useful in ensuring optimal pacing.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

not necessarily. bad days could also be a result of some of the other things i've mentioned, or a heavy training phase, an undetected injury, whatever.

I guess what I'm saying is how much does a $1500 PM help your pacing during the race, as compared to a $50 HRM.

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Do you have a link to the study?

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Don't you guys think all of this analysis is way too much overkill for a bunch of MOP triathletes ? Seriously, I don't see times in ANY Olympic, half Ironman or Ironman races around North America getting ANY faster than 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The FOP and MOP is no quicker.

I agree that power based pacing is excellent, but people have been going fast forever on Perceived Exertion and Heartrate. This is likely more than sufficient for most MOP racers.

Bottom line is that your body is not the same every day. On bad days the PE is waaaaay hi for a given power output. This is your body's way of telling you that you might not be able to handle a given "power output" on that day. Perhaps cause you drank 12 beers the nite before or only got 2 hours of sleep :-). Sometimes you gotta listen to your body rather than the numbers :-)

...AND if you don't believe that PE works, ask Lothar Leder, first man to go sub 8 hours and he did it WITHOUT EVEN A WATCH...just by feel.

Looking. Here's an interesting one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...83127&query_hl=4 "This strategy would be best monitored with 'power-measuring devices' rather than heart rate or subjective feelings as the sensitivity of these variables to small but meaningful changes in power during a race is low."

Sorry, couldn't find the link.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Were the courses flat or 'sporting'. re: your 40km TT, didn't HR show the same thing, i.e. that you went out way too hard???"

NO! My HR went to 175 and flatlined the entire race--both going out hard and going out easier..which is why I don't trust it! Temperature was really high during the 'easier' start, and PE was quite low--HR was jacked. When I started going harder, HR stayed the same....

The 40KM was a big tailwind out, headwind back. I *thought* I was going easy. Going back and figuring, I'd estimate 290W out and 245W back...

And yeah, you're right about the stuff that impacts perfomance (crying babies, etc). It just seems that power is the best measure, and it's immediate. Sure if your FTP is 300W, but you're struggling at 220W, you can only do what you can do. I think the more likely scenario though is "feeling really good" and blowing the first part by going to hard.

This really hit home on the ONE TT I really paced well w/o a power meter. I showed up late, had ZERO warmup for a 12 mi. TT--my number was being pinned as my 30 second guy went off. My 'warm-up' consisted of going what 'felt' WAY too easy for the first 5 minutes of the race. To this day, it's the fasted TT I've done.
Sure, I could try to "go easy" again, but why guess?? There's no downside to using the PM!

Not to mention the cost involved. I own 5 bikes, thinking about getting a couple more, and I ain't swapping out a BB, crankset or even a wheel before every ride. I don't really feel like spending $10,000 on power meters. the HRM is not tied to a particular bike, I can use it when I run, etc, and I get pretty good results from using that information.

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I agree that people have gone fast before PM's....is not like Indurain was slow or anything....

But I really believe that if one wants to go as fast as they can go, whether they're a BOP'r or an elite, the best tool you can use is a PM.

I don't know about Tris, but Road TT times seem to be coming down--significantly, over the last couple of years, particularly in the non-elite categories. It used to be in our state TT that one or two Cat 4's would break 1hr (40KM), now you'll see 8-10. Unscientific, I know--but I really think that PM's are largely responsible.

<<ANY Olympic, half Ironman or Ironman races around North America getting ANY faster than 10, 15 or 20 years ago. The FOP and MOP is no quicker. >>

While this may or may not be true (I don't care enough to do the research), I think what most people look for when talking about a PM for pacing is consistency in race results. I get ONE IM attempt per year. The last two years I screwed the pooch like a teenage rabbit on viagra, (I'm not sure if that simile works....hmm..). Next year I'll have a PM to be absolutely SURE I'm not going out too hard on the bike.

After an hour + in the water and with thousands of people yelling and cheering, and on tapered legs, RPE gets more than a bit skewed for most.

If I raced every other weekend in Olys, I may not 'waste' $1500 for a PM, but for the one race a year on tapered legs mentality that many here have, I don't think I'll ever go without one again.

I guess if you have it, use it. No there is no downside risk, at worst you just ignore the information. But would I personally spend the kind of money it would take to outfit my stable of bikes with PM's? Not a chance.

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<<But would I personally spend the kind of money it would take to outfit my stable of bikes with PM's? Not a chance. >>

If you could do me a favor and contact all the M2529 racing in IM Wisconsin next year and convince them of the same, I would be forever in your debt! (It may not get me to Kona, but I'll take all the help I can get!)

OK, then set your HRM alarm to 130 bpm ( I don't know you but a wild ass guess would suggest that this is low enough). If you exceed 130 bpm in the first hour, then slow down as your watch starts to beep. Granted this is the equivalent of shuffling on the bike, but by shuffling on the bike early in the race, you might actually run the final 13 miles of the race, vs having to break into a walk :-).

Seriously guys, we are all our own worst enemies. The enemy within is your own brain. Once you have tamed your own mind and have contol over it, your brain becomes your friend. If you need a powermeter to tame your brain, then go for it.

However, there are cheaper solutions.

The downside risk is that you become slave to numbers and actually go to easy. Granted this is rare, but it is possible. Ask Chad (cdw). In general though there is no downside (aside from financial).

Wouldn't you rather spend the $1600 to fly out to the Alps and ride till you drop in the big mountains for a week? This will make the MOP faster than any training gadget :-)

"Don't you guys think all of this analysis is way too much overkill for a bunch of MOP triathletes ?"

Given the endless "what's faster a 404 or an H3" threads, I think that discussion of a PM's usefullness is one of the relevant questions I've seen on here.

Good stuff here on ST. I'm taking notes now:

1. Do more squats.

2. Ignore the benefit of power meters.

3. Aim for a positive split.

Am I missing anything?

Considering that I own 5 bikes, that $1500 would quickly become $7500. That's a hell of a training camp.

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Yes, spending $1500 or more on a 6th bike is probably the best training investment you can make. Your doing that would most assuredly be best for me (if you are in M30-34) ;-).

ot

I don't have a cyclo-cross bike yet. I need one ;)

I have 5 bikes, but they all serve different purposes:

2 road bikes (carbon and an old steel bike for commuting)

1 TT / Tri bike

1 mtn bike

1 fixed gear.

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<<2. Ignore the benefit of power meters.

3. Aim for a positive split. >>

Number 3 will simply be the outcome of #2~ :-)

<<I have 5 bikes, but they all serve different purposes:>>

Sounds like you need ONE PM.....two if your tri bike is 650c. If it's 700c, only one with two computer/sensor units. Powertaps are $1200 aren't they?

Actually, it would only cost you $5200 (you only need BB sensors for the other 4 @ $900 ea, not the whole system),but your point is made. ;-)

Mt TT bike is 700c, so I can swap wheels there. How do I put the same rear wheel on my road, track, and mountain bike?

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One powertap'd wheel and 3 harnesses (at ~$65ea) would be easy and not cost nearly $1500. Nobody said you needed to ride with power on EVERY ride.

To emphasize what others have stated - I've found a pretty big disconnect between power and HR at times. Most of those times I've found that power was the 'correct' metric. And that doesn't even account for the significant lag between PE/HR and power. Its funny how easy it is to start up a hill at 150% of threshold and not feel it or see the results on the HR monitor for 30-60 seconds.

In racing you don't ignore any of the metrics...if anything is really out of whack (whack = approximately what you established during a race simulation) you reign in your effort. I have 'caps' on PE and HR for all my races but there is significant slop from the 'expected value' because of the variability of those two parameters.

ot

Use a powertap. Get one wheel with the PT and get a wheel cover for aero in races. Get an extra PT sensor/computer unit and install on the road and tri bikes. Switch wheels as necessary.

As far as the mountain bike and commuter bike, go without the PT. I'm guessing your interval work isn't done on the bike trail on the way to work and that the mountain bike is a recovery/off season tool.

On the fixie, also isn't necessary.

The idea is to use the PT on the bikes you race and train on the MOST.

You missed "train for 700-900 hours per year" If you take care of that, first then getting the powermeter is just fine tuning :-). By the way, last time I checked, Faris positive split in hawaii, but he was using a powermeter, so we should all go out and buy them :-)

<< You missed "train for 700-900 hours per year" >>

No I didn't, I just assumed everyone trains as much as I do. Why else would I have to clean coffee off my keyboard after reading "What's the aero cost of quick release?" :-)

To get the most benefit from power meters, you need to train with it, correct? I spend roughly equal time on my track and road bikes, and many of my most intense sessions are actually on the mountain bike (which has disc brakes by the way). The rear wheels on these 3 machines are not compatible. my old road bike is 8 speed, my newer one is 9 speed. I race TT's with a pair of trispokes.

I don't think going slightly over threshold for 30-60 seconds in an IM length race makes a whole lot of difference.

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One of the main themes I've gathered so far is that there are two general camps: those that are "in-tune" with themselves physically and have high confidence in their ability to pace off of HR and PE, and those that don't. If you fall into the second category, isn't it just dumb to keep trying to do the same thing over and over hoping that something will magically change, but ending up with same result (bad race performances)?

<< I spend roughly equal time on my track and road bikes, and many of my most intense sessions are actually on the mountain bike (which has disc brakes by the way).>>

Well from the sounds of it, it would take lengthy threads on specificity, bike fitting, and aero wheels to begin to convince you of the cost/benefit of a powermeter. (not trying to say you are wrong,...or right). So I go right back to "Train my competitors to think like you do...."

Why not on the fixie?

Actually, you're right. I do my intervals on the way home from work, that way I'm not all sweaty when I get to the office.

On some of the trails here, there is nothing remotely "recovery" about a mountain bike ride.

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Well from the sounds of it, it would take lengthy threads on specificity, bike fitting, and aero wheels to begin to convince you of the cost/benefit of a powermeter. (not trying to say you are wrong,...or right). So I go right back to "Train my competitors to think like you do...."


why, is riding a bike different if you are on a different machine? I use whatever bike will specifically help me with the days objective. Some days that means a track bike is in order.

I like the wheels I have, and my bikes fit me pretty well. My road and track bikes are almost identical (except for crank length, I don't want long cranks on the fixie)

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<<why, is riding a bike different if you are on a different machine? I use whatever bike will specifically help me with the days objective. Some days that means a track bike is in order.

I like the wheels I have, and my bikes fit me pretty well. My road and track bikes are almost identical (except for crank length, I don't want long cranks on the fixie)>>

Keep on keepin on....

20 years ago, did they bring along a deck of cards on the bike? If not I'm not sure what the heck they did for 5 hrs without all these gadgets to monkey with. Its a wonder anyone finished at all...

<< 20 years ago, did they bring along a deck of cards on the bike? If not I'm not sure what the heck they did for 5 hrs without all these gadgets to monkey with. Its a wonder anyone finished at all... >>

20 years ago I was six. Staying on two wheels, rubber side down, held my attention just fine for hours on end.

Frank Day got soooooo bored finishing the first Ironman, that he invented Powercranks exclusively for the purposes of creating lively discussion. Dan Empfield got soooo bored doing an Ironman in the 1980's that he contacted DARPA and asked them if they could make their network available for commercial industry so that tri guys could debate the merits of the yet to be invented powermeters, on a yet to be invented virtual tri geek meeting room called slowtwitch.com :-)

i waited 6+ weeks to get my powertap repaired, 3+ weeks to get my polar HRM repaired, i don't think you're going to get any superior service by choosing a different power company unless SRM is good....

Your experience with PT CS was probably atypical. They're usually pretty quick about it unless parts are not available.

SRM CS is also supposed to be good and fast but you will likely not need it. They are a bit understaffed so if you need immediate help in the middle of the season you have to call them rather than resort to email.

I've not had good luck with Polar CS.

4. Ride tubulars with sealant in them and pump them to 160 pounds.

1. Do more squats.

2. Ignore the benefit of power meters.

3. Aim for a positive split.

4. Ride tubulars with sealant in them and pump them to 160 pounds.

5. Consider eliminating quick releases in favor of track hubs for maximum aero

6. You can improve your bike position/fit by asking a bunch of people who know little to nothing about you, your riding style, injury history, flexibility, ect. to look at pictures of you that may or may not contain a BMW, civil war videos, and bad wallpaper.

a) It's a stupid choice of power meter if money is an issue because you can get one for $300

b) IF you use it correctly and wisely then it is very much worth it

Given the amount of money being made in this industry, if someone showed up on the bike Mark Allen rode in 1989 and won Kona, what would happen?

I mean, it is quite damning that with all of the must have gadgets the times really haven't come down. Either that or people are just wusses now...

what power meter can you get for $300

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Your seat is too high.

I think it would depend on how far over you go and how frequently you go over. A course like IMMOO is more than happy to gleefully punish you with yet another small roller...and yet another opportunity to make a pacing mistake.

I don't believe you have to train with a powermeter on nearly every ride to get the majority of the benefit of using one. Once or twice a week, definitely a couple of race sims and then during the race and you'd be set.

ot

Ah yes! When in doubt, lower your seat.

Rules to live by.

ot

<<I think it would depend on how far over you go and how frequently you go over. A course like IMMOO is more than happy to gleefully punish you with yet another small roller...and yet another opportunity to make a pacing mistake. >>

Well put.