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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Great product, great prices, keep up the good work.

A lot of people might help to better understand the situation if they realized that there is a different between PRICE and COST. Flo's prices are low relative to the competition, but given the scarcity and irregular ordering process, the cost to the consumer is considerably higher. The consumer must accept not receiving the product exactly when they want, must accept the uncertainty that they might not get said product, must scour slowtwitch for ordering info, must be at their computer when the time is right, and so on. If your time is valuable, then you might not accept the opportunity cost of being a Flo customer, and instead opt to pay higher prices for greater convenience from Zipp, HED, etc. Conversely, if you value your time less highly, then your opportunity cost is lower, to the effective overall cost of a Flo wheel is lower, so you try to buy Flo.

There are many similar scenarios in other business. For example, recently I wanted to buy a bunch of high-quality ties. Two possible options were to buy a bunch of new ties from known companies that produce quality, durable, attractive ties. Whereas another option was to visit 10 thrift stores in my urban city, hunting out the great finds, accepting that there is uncertainty, that it will take an entire day or more, that the ties may not fit me properly, etc. Option 1 is expensive in price, option 2 is cheap in price, but depending on how you value the opportunity cost of your time, they might be roughly equal. In fact, since I ended up going option 1, assuming I am a rational actor, the sum cost was actually cheaper for option 1.

There is no right of wrong answer for the consumer. If you feel that the cost of Flo is too much for you, pay higher prices for wheels from another company. If it's not, try to buy Flo.
Now what is best for the company is a different matter, and as others have stated that would require way more info, which none of us have.
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [ClayDavis] [ In reply to ]
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ClayDavis wrote:
I'll just say this: I like the company and how its run, and when it came time for me to order my wheels I was prepared for it and did it without issue. So I have no complaints. The fact of the matter is Flo makes a great product at a great price, and I can see how continually missing the opportunity to become a customer would be vexing, and inspire complaints. There's also the uber-capitalist side of complaints, whereby people don't agree with the actual business model and operating strategy, as if there is only one right way to run a business.

There is nothing wrong with:
a) sticking to your founding principles and having a mission to deliver good value to customers and serve a particular niche within the market, even if it means compromising profitability and growth
and
b) being risk averse and playing it safe (i.e. choosing security and stability over high risk/high reward gambling)

I understand that there are many people and businesses that are philosophically opposed to both of those ideas, and it may be that a different viewpoint is a threat to their worldview and that inspires ire. I for one like the fact that Flo does things a little bit differently, and I assume that at this point they know what they're doing, and understand their own business. If they do things a certain way, they have their reasons. The free market works in such a way that if someone finds that offensive, they don't have to be a Flo customer, there are many other options for them.

I'll start with a general comment first. There are a lot of people on here with positive things to say who seem to understand our vision. I don't only want to reply to the criticism and wanted to say thank you for the kind words.

Now to your point. I just had a long chat with my brother about this forum. Believe it or not, we care about what people say and use the comments to help with checks and balances. What you said above is exactly right. You have to have a plan and stick to it. That plan won't work for everyone, but if you keep changing what you are doing you'll never get it together.

Let me share a personal story to illustrate my point. I swam with a masters team for quiet some time. About a year after starting FLO a friend of mine on the team who swam at Stanford told me that his former team mates were starting a wetsuit company. He said they were impressed with the success of FLO and were wondering if I would talk to them about business. I agreed to take the call. Before I hung up the phone, I asked him the name of the company. He said the new company was named ROKA.

A short time after I got a call from a guy named Rob. We spoke for about 90 minutes in total and I told Rob everything I knew about starting a business in this industry. In all honesty, I'm sure that Rob took something from our conversation, but if you look at our companies today, you'd guess we'd never spoken. ROKA has taken a completely different approach to starting a business than we did. ROKA has just announced another round of funding, has to my knowledge nearly 40 employees, sponsors a long list of pro athletes, and sells through retail outlets.

Do I hate Rob because of this? Of course not. In fact I think what the guys are doing at ROKA is awesome. They have a vision, a belief and a passion and they are sticking to it. From what I can see, it's working. Our path is completely different than theirs but that is ok. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I see Rob and Kurt at a lot of the IM events and it's always great to catch up with them. They've got a great team of people and I wish them all the luck in the world.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude wrote:
I agree. Great product, great prices, keep up the good work.

A lot of people might help to better understand the situation if they realized that there is a different between PRICE and COST. Flo's prices are low relative to the competition, but given the scarcity and irregular ordering process, the cost to the consumer is considerably higher. The consumer must accept not receiving the product exactly when they want, must accept the uncertainty that they might not get said product, must scour slowtwitch for ordering info, must be at their computer when the time is right, and so on. If your time is valuable, then you might not accept the opportunity cost of being a Flo customer, and instead opt to pay higher prices for greater convenience from Zipp, HED, etc. Conversely, if you value your time less highly, then your opportunity cost is lower, to the effective overall cost of a Flo wheel is lower, so you try to buy Flo.

There are many similar scenarios in other business. For example, recently I wanted to buy a bunch of high-quality ties. Two possible options were to buy a bunch of new ties from known companies that produce quality, durable, attractive ties. Whereas another option was to visit 10 thrift stores in my urban city, hunting out the great finds, accepting that there is uncertainty, that it will take an entire day or more, that the ties may not fit me properly, etc. Option 1 is expensive in price, option 2 is cheap in price, but depending on how you value the opportunity cost of your time, they might be roughly equal. In fact, since I ended up going option 1, assuming I am a rational actor, the sum cost was actually cheaper for option 1.

There is no right of wrong answer for the consumer. If you feel that the cost of Flo is too much for you, pay higher prices for wheels from another company. If it's not, try to buy Flo.
Now what is best for the company is a different matter, and as others have stated that would require way more info, which none of us have.

I really like what you said. The example is great.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Post deleted by Hanktri [ In reply to ]
Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Hanktri] [ In reply to ]
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Hanktri wrote:
So, this was my first attempt to buy these and I was too dumb too think of the copy paste... Heart rate was pumping. Tried to buy a 60/90 and felt like it all locked up at 1:03 when my CC was trying to confirm. However, I then got an email confirming my order.... Even though the screen seems to be locked. Does the email mean I am in? I'm guessing I have set myself up for abuse and disappointment?
In Reply To:

If you got a confirmation email it sounds like your order went through. Do you have an order number?


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I do!! So, you are saying there is a chance..😃
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Hanktri] [ In reply to ]
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Hanktri wrote:
Yes, I do!! So, you are saying there is a chance..😃

If you have an order number you should be good. For the record, that order number looks to be a typo. I think you added an extra digit?


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Oops.. Sorry -- typo on my iPhone. That wasn't my number --- not sure what that was. Thankfully I did a better job when I was online!! Thanks. Can't wait to try them out!
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting to see that Flo has substantially more facebook likes than Zipp and HED.
Last edited by: mcycle: Apr 17, 15 18:22
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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ummm.....

currently Flo has 6,559 likes https://www.facebook.com/...949109778769?fref=ts
Zipp has 95,916 likes https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zipp/38574956052
and HED has 5,560 likes https://www.facebook.com/hedcycling?fref=ts

as of 9:43 PM Eastern time on 4/17/2015

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Apr 17, 15 18:50
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I stand corrected. This came up higher in my facebook search. Flo has a long way to go to pass Zipp in fb world.

https://www.facebook.com/...mp;ref=page_internal
Last edited by: mcycle: Apr 17, 15 18:48
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [mcycle] [ In reply to ]
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Official Zipp page - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zipp/38574956052

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Just chiming in to voice strong Flo support! I love what they stand for and wouldn't have decent race wheels without them. I got a 60/90 combo from existing inventory in December. They arrived at my door 4 days later. Go Flo! Race wheels for the masses!
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
ummm.....

currently Flo has 6,559 likes https://www.facebook.com/...949109778769?fref=ts
Zipp has 95,916 likes https://www.facebook.com/pages/Zipp/38574956052
and HED has 5,560 likes https://www.facebook.com/hedcycling?fref=ts

as of 9:43 PM Eastern time on 4/17/2015

Boyd 4,857
Williams 5,962
Reynolds 14,309
Enve 382,416
Mavic 192,305
Lightweight 19,392
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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There's more than one way to skin a cat.

From what I can tell you run a great business. You are making money and customers are happy. Not everyone is trying to maximize $$$. I certainly never have.



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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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reading all the hype, i'm excited about possibly participating in the next order
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Economist wrote:
I haven't made any real comments on FLO's business model since I don't know all the details. I can see why the average consumer is confused. We are use to being able to purchase what we want when we want it. <--Whole bunch of w's in that sentence.

This is exactly my point...since people don't know all the details their experience and degrees mean very little. The most annoying post that always pops up is the supply and demand assertion. People try to make it far more simple than it really is. Anybody can take an economics class and say, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense you raise price until demand levels out and then just hold it there." But in practice that is not the way it works...wayyyy too many other factors. There is a reason why running businesses, cities, states, countries etc. is very difficult...

FLO wants to be around forever...long-term planning is a concept many American's seem to struggle with. But in this case it is mainly because American's are entitled jerks and will never support a situation where they don't get instant gratification.
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [TriMike] [ In reply to ]
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TriMike wrote:
If you are looking for something like a Flo 30 check out the Boyd Altamont. They actually hold inventory...what a concept.

Of course, the Altamont shape is nothing like the Flo30 shape. I suspect that they're less aero, so it's not really a valid comparison.

Probably the closest comparison to the Flo30 is...the Zipp 101. Which are also hard to get, since they're discontinued.
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [asad137] [quote TriMike] [ In reply to ]
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asad137 wrote:
Probably the closest comparison to the Flo30 is...the Zipp 101. Which are also hard to get, since they're discontinued.

Zipp does make the 30 Clincher. Only $850 MSRP per set (vs $500 for the FLO30 set).

Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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FYI, for better or worse, the measure of facebook likes is not a highly reliable indication of a company's success or popularity. Some companies buy fb 'likes' by the thousands.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Yep. It's really easy to buy Facebook likes to make people think you are super popular. I have no idea why people were posting the amount of Facebook likes. I only did it to correct someone

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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Anybody can take an economics class and say, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense you raise price until demand levels out and then just hold it there." But in practice that is not the way it works...wayyyy too many other factors. There is a reason why running businesses, cities, states, countries etc. is very difficult...

I'm pretty amazed that people think that Flo not having reliable inventory means they are a "bad" company or don't know how to run a business. It's especially weird when I think about all the new companies in this industry that promise a lot, get really popular and grow like crazy, and then go bankrupt because their product is a POS that breaks. Guess who is left holding the bag? Or maybe their product isn't a POS, but they are crack addicts when it comes to money and get over-extended and go bankrupt. Some people start businesses like this over and over again.

Flo is playing it safe financially, which I think is great. Less stressful for them I'm sure, and also means they are likely to be around for awhile. Also they've done some good testing at the start and published the results. It's a refreshing change from the hype and BS that most companies rely on.


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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [Runner Rick] [ In reply to ]
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Runner Rick wrote:
asad137 wrote:
Probably the closest comparison to the Flo30 is...the Zipp 101. Which are also hard to get, since they're discontinued.


Zipp does make the 30 Clincher. Only $850 MSRP per set (vs $500 for the FLO30 set).

I know. The Zipp 30 is not really a comparable shape to the Zipp 101 or Flo30 since it has parallel brake tracks:

Zipp 101 vs. Zipp 30



Flo30:



And the aforementioned Boyd Altamont:


I'd be interested to know if anyone besides Flo is currently making angled-brake-track aluminum rims (not that it matters to me very much since I already have a set of Flo30s and Flo60s).
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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [asad137] [ In reply to ]
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Probably the closest comparison to the Flo30 is...the Zipp 101.

The 101 is narrower. Tour tested it awhile back and it wasn't that good. Actually no better than a Kinlin XR300.

I don't know where the Flo30 stands compared to other wide rims, but I suspect the SL23, XC279, and XR31 are fairly close in aero performance, and are lighter.

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Re: FLO Sells Out Again [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:

The 101 is narrower.

Ah right, I forgot about that.

It would be interesting to see an aero comparison between a representative set of wide aluminum clinchers. Will probably never happen though.
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