The original 1911 design did not have a manual safety. It was requested by mounted cavalry. The manual safety is an outdated design. But whatever.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I told you but I didn't listen. I haven't bought a 9 mm in five years but I did today.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Lol. Pictures or it didn't happen.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Pics to come. My plan was almost dashed when my kids were home with the flu and my wife worked from home. But I snuck away for an hour. Just couldn't snap a pick. It is FDE, a first for me. I bought the compact, and it works with my sig p245 holster. It conceals as good if not better. Holds 15 rounds. The handle is different. Not a traditional sig, 1911, or glock angle. So quick draw doesn't line up naturally perfect yet. But that will remedy with some drawing practice. All others are automatic for me. But this is a wild card. All my Sigs are metal except this one. 1911s just feel like 1911s on the draw so never been an issue. And glocks are polymer, so I instinctively knew that was a glock on the draw and aimed accordingly.

But this changes it all. It is also my first ambi gun. The slide release is on both sides. So I'll have to be mindful of getting in the habit of a slide release. I always uses slingshot. Better to stick with that.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I read that the handle is at a slightly different angle. Not good or bad but different especially for someone used to sigs.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I found it remedied with an isosceles stance vs a weaver. I was trained with the weaver stance when I first started shooting pistol but used isosceles in competitions, at it works better with glocks, so if I get out of practice, I find my stance goes somewhere in between. Works fine with Pseries sigs or 1911 which I have been shooting, but glocks tend to go POA a little to the right. This pistol was doing that as well. So when I practiced drawing with isosceles last night, it was spot on. So while it isn't a glock handle, it's aiming is closer to it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_stance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isosceles_Stance

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

So you got to get out and out some rounds through it?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Hey slowguy. Having just bought a potential contender in this MHS bid, I have become obsessed with learning more. This excerpt caught my attention and I immediately thought of you. I'll stay civil, I promise.

From an article, "Just like law enforcement and civilian shooters, the military is faced with the decision of what cartridge suits their needs best. Cartridges like .40 S&W and .357 SIG are hard on shooters and hard on guns, even if they deliver a harder-hitting payload. Browning’s storied .45 ACP loads a big, heavy bullet, but it takes up a lot of space, increasing grip sizes and decreasing magazine capacity.
The results of the program may find that a different bullet, not cartridge, may be the answer to their current 9mm problems, and is requesting that potential contractors supply ball and jacketed hollow point ammunition with their submissions."


http://www.guns.com/...wants-a-new-handgun/


So what does this mean? Bringing back this debate, your stance would suggest this would be a direct violation of the Hague Treaty. Why would they even consider this? The dilemma suggested seem to only be reconciled via some sort of hollow point. Do they think there is enough wiggle room to get around that? Which would suggest I was correct.

Or point three, do they intend to just violate it and say fuck off or renegotiate the treaty?

One possible solution to the feeding issue would be using hollow point ammo with polymer filling or balls. States like New York forbid hollow points, but ammo like power ball isn't technically a hollowpoint since a polymer ball fills in the cavity and is a loophole. What the find is such ammo feeds more reliable than hollowpoints. But it still expands?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Put about 150 rounds through it today. Different wait fmh for the first hundred and various 9mm hollow points premium and cheap. Initial impressions. So far the balance of any quality polymer framed pistol like glock or S&w. Reliability on par with glock. No failures the whole round. The slide didn't lock on a couple empty mags, but could be a result of a brand new tight slide spring or now having to adjust to an ambi slide lock where my right hand rest. Accuracy of a sig which is better than a glock. Easy to follow up shots. Did Mozambique drills with four mags of fifteen rounds at distances of 15 and 30 feet.

But most important, the trigger. Stock is better than glock or S&w. A reset on par with glock. But best of all no trigger safety mechanism that is present in both glocks and S&w. I always preferred a metal trigger over plastic and while I got used to the safety mechanism. Never really liked it. It made switching guns a slight adjustment. This will be an option soon , but I will pass.

It did affect using my .357 with two hands after. Still had one handeds down. But hey, two different guns and very different power cartridges causes this.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Two issues to consider.

1. The Hague treaties prohibit the use of expanding bullets in international conflict between contracting parties; i.e. countries who sign the treaties. There is wiggle room for justification in using these types of rounds when combatting non-state actors, terrorists, etc who do not represent those nations.

2. The military also uses firearms for internal law enforcement and security, and the Hague treaties wouldn't apply there either.

So, the DoD could certainly have use for these types of rounds in certain mission sets or environments.


Here's an interesting legal analysis of the Hague prohibitions, and whether or not we should rethink them. For the record, I am perfectly happy with the idea of getting rid of that prohibition. However, it's not as easy as just deciding to do it.

https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/...hua%20F.%20Berry.pdf

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Small world. I know Maj Josh Berry from a previous life.

With regard to everything else slowguy said - spot on.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Would jsoc or intelligence agencies and their paramilitaries be subject to these restrictions?

I also never said it could be just done. Only that it could be done. It might not be accepted or appreciated by our allies, but certainly negotiated. Case in point the use of hollow points by snipers. A legal analysis done and possible defense created.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I got 15 pages in. This clears up a lot of things and I'm glad to see their reasoning is on par with mine.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Anything can be done. It just depends on how much you care about following the law.

The point in the previous portion of the thread was not that expanding rounds / hollow points could or should or should not be used. It was just that one of the primary reasons we have the weapons and rounds that we have now is out of a desire to comply with that restriction.


As to your question, JSOC is a component of the US Military, so I would imagine that they are subject to all the same restrictions on use of hollow points as the rest of our military, with the same wiggle room I mentioned earlier.

Intelligence agencies are something different, and I don't know what international law would say. I would offer that, assuming you're talking about spies and counterterrorism cells, if they are shooting people, it may not be strictly legal for a variety of reasons aside from the type of round used. They are not legal combatants. They are not members of the military. They are not conducting law enforcement activities. If they're shooting people in foreign countries, they're likely violating those countries' laws. If they're shooting them here, they're probably violating ours, with regard to arrest and trial etc. I doubt those guys care much about adding on a charge of using illegal ammunition. Now, they might get around that by carrying weapons strictly for "self defense" in a private capacity, but that would still require them to comply with the laws of whatever country they are working in. Short answer is that I don't really know what the full answer is, but I doubt those particular folks care very much. Again, if they're not representing our nation engaged in armed conflict against another nation, the Hague stuff doesn't really apply. There are other pieces that make up the customary law on the subject (as you can see in the paper I linked), but the Hague treaties seem to be the primary source of the prohibition.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

. Specifically I'm talking about special activities division. A civilian paramilitary. Some might call them assassination teams or search and destroy teams. The reason I noted jsoc is they often work with with CIA SAD. As I'm sure you are aware Whether counter-terrorism activities fall under global law enforcement or general warfare is often modified changed to suit different needs. We see this with enhanced interrogation or indefinite detention of enemy combatants even if they are us citizens.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Not to drag up an old thread, but I guess Beretta has a new gun they are going to submit. Between this, sig sauer 320, and the M&P. It is definitely going to be striker fired.

http://soldiersystems.net/...ired-pistol-at-idex/

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Doing some follow up research on this read the last sentence. I had confirmed with some local police contacts in Florida that they were moving back to 9mm. Looks like the FBI is to. My guess is the .40 has run its course. With current technology making the terminal ballistics of 9mm on par with .40 and just a tiny bit weaker than .45, why go with a bullet with dangerous pressures and reasons discussed.

http://www.armytimes.com/...licitation/22120459/

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I've been meaning to ask how the SIG is doing. Have you had it back on the range?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Yes, I like it a lot. Made me like 9mm again. It is a compact model, not carry, so I conceals well to. It is going to be a interesting what they pic. Unfortunately, I think politics will play a huge roll.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

This is such an easy call......the gun the military should have purchased back in 2005 during the JCPP that got scratched. Threaded barrel for suppressor, suppressor night sights, full ambi controls, 15 round .45 ACP capacity, cutouts on slide for red dot optic. My local xchange has the FNX 45 tactical with range case, three mags for $1,095......I need this gun!

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

That is a crying shame. Cannot wait to see how badly those "ridges" on the slide get hung up on stuff.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

They would never use .45 for general use again unfortunately.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

It's available in 9 mm as well.......

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

Looking at this possibly for my gf. Do you still have yours and if so any other thoughts?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Yes and I like it. But I fear Sig Sauer has screwed up big time on marketing. They designed all these new pistols and rifles on the premise of modularity, but they haven't met those timeframes. They have managed to get some conversion kits out there, but they aren't readily available. I'm still having trouble finding a .45 conversion. Also, few tactical or kydex holsters exist for this pistol. But otherwise I really like it. I have the compact and do not feel undergunned with it at all, but the lack of a tactical holster means I couldn't use it in competition. Leather holsters work fine. But I think they are hedging on police contracts or another Democrat Gun Scare before they really get anything out there.

The 556 xi has worked very well for me, but I was betting on accessory rails and some other accessories that haven't some out. I've heard the same issue with the MPX modular platform.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden