Oh this again. I don't know the specifics of this bid. But pistols that go through this process physically change. Are they sticking with 9mm.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I hope the 9mm has seen its last days of service. When I left the Marine Corps there was a tremendous amount of buzz and support for going back to the .45.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Meh. I entered the Army carrying a .45 and left carrying a 9mm. Pros and cons of each. But, for its intended ussage, .45 likely makes more sense.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I can tell you, for a fact, who will win -- the lowest bidder.

Beretta is pushing hard for the Px4 Storm Special Duty (.45). As an owner of one, I can tell you, one of the best guns I have ever fired. But, it is "complicated" with its "rolling" barrel and it is "fatter" than most. http://www.beretta.com/...x4-storm-sd-type-f-/

If I were making the decision, I would contract with Glock and outfit the military in the .45 variety. I am no Glock fanboi, but, the damn things are nearly infallible and easy as hell to work with and on.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Why not split the difference and go 40s&w? Or would introducing yet another caliber overwhelm the supply system?

Honest question. How much real use is there for a handgun in a modern military?

'Cause .40 sucks to fire in most guns. Remember, it has to be a caliber everyone can handle. Also, why complicate things?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It's all I carried for over a year in the sandbox and, yeah, I needed it. I was attached to an armor brigade and they used and needed them as well.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

They're also widely used for security and ATFP watch standers, MPs, etc.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

What do you guys carry? Are you using the Beretta in 9mm flavor? What are your thoughts?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Most of our watches carry the 9mm Beretta M9. It's probably fine for what we mostly use it for, although I preferred the .45s we used to have. The Berettas have a relatively low fire rate, low range, low stopping power, they're decent but not great for accuracy, and have a higher rate of minor malfunction (anecdotally) than some other pistols I've used. That said, some of those issues may not be with the weapon itself. For instance, I think the govt decided to buy magazines from other vendors, rather than from Beretta, and they were somewhat known for higher than normal rates of failure.

For security watches and MP type functions, they're probably fine because they're maintained routinely, kept in clean armories, and not fired on the job routinely. If I was living in the desert with a sidearm on my hip all the time, I might want something else.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

The glock is almost a consensus among people I know who served and most contractors I knew carried glocks.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

My feelings as well. The M9 is a fine handgun, but, it certainly has the issues you noted.

To me, a Glock is a like an AK - you can bury the damn thing and dig it up later to fire without issue. Simple and effective. With their proliferation of law enforcement, I often wondered why they were never adopted by the military. My guess is that the military wanted an even lower rate than law enforcement was getting and Glock did not see it as a smart move to reduce the bulk price of their product. But, I am purely speculating.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I like the manual safety on the M9 (and the 1911, for that matter) for carrying cocked and locked. But, I question whether a (external) hammer-driven pistol is the right choice for those in uniform already covered in tactical gear, given where many of them carry the pistol. That would be another factor (albeit not the primary by any means) that would cause me to, personally, choose a Glock like the people you mention.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I think that part of the issue is that the Hague Convention prohibits the use of expanding ammunition in warfare. That means we can't use hollow point rounds like the .40 S&W which lots of LE use in their Glocks. The 9mm parabellum round meets NATO standards, which is why that round was chosen to begin with.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Honest question. How much real use is there for a handgun in a modern military?

Can't say about the real military but in COD it's way faster to switch weapons then reload the one you just emptied. That's an important thing when your facing an over whelming Zombie hoard. Life or death.

~Matt

It also has a narrow pressure curve because they took the 10mm auto (a magnum caliber) at its minimum setting and compressed it into a shortened case with no increase in case strength. Every case failure I'm aware of with factory loaded ammo and it was police it happened to.

As I stated in another thread, my theory is with the small pressure window, bullet setback is the culprit. Every time you chamber a round it pushes that bullet into the case. It exponentially does more with subsequent rechamberings.

I would suspect most police either are required to clear their chambers when in station or certainly do it when they get home if they have children. Too much setback on a .40 round isn't obvious. On a .45 or even 9mm it is. A .45 with too much setback is well within the ogive (where the bullet start to dome). So doesn't 9mm. Both do not chamber well long before that is an issue.

That is why .40 in my opinion cannot be a combat round.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The only firearm I really want to pickup right now is the FN FNX Tactical .45 ACP. I believe this gun was initially designed for the military contract on the last request a few years back, but the government never executed the contract (or something like that).

It's a double stack polymer .45 cal. that holds 15 rounds. You gotta' love holding 15 rounds of .45 cal in one magazine...

The grip is not as big as most other double stack .45s I have looked at that hold fewer rounds.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

I had interest in a contractor position as a controller with Dyncorp in Afghanistan after I got laid off from Marriott. While not an armed position they did recommend familiarity with the functions of an Ar-15s and glock pistol. Because that was what the armory stocked.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

My money's on Glock. Does anybody know howmany law enforcement agency's use them by the way?

Irrelevant and false. Military doesn't use hollow point because they don't feed as reliably. They make .40 in ball anyways.

The sniper round has a match king
Projectile. That is an hpbt round. Hollow point boat tail. But you are right, the us military would have to accept a NATO round. Or designate the .40 one through a process. That was what was done for the 5.56. NATO was on board with a 7.62 round. But we decided the 5.56
In an assault rifle format was what we would go with.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

To me, it just seems to make more sense to go to an intermediate round for primaries and start carrying something like the MP7 for a secondary. Weight becomes a bit of an issue though.

IIRC it was developed for SOCOM

I would also bet on S&W

I thought it was interesting that they don't mention the M11(Sig P228 9mm).

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LLLEEEEEEEEEEEERRRROOOYYY JEEENNNNNKKKIIINNNNNS!!!

Quote:

Irrelevant and false. Military doesn't use hollow point because they don't feed as reliably.....But you are right, the us military would have to accept a NATO round.

Sorry, but you're wrong. The Hague Treaty prohibits the use of expanding rounds. as a result, NATO doesn't allow the use of hollow point rounds. As a result, the US, in attempting to standardize with NATO, doesn't use hollow point.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You're a smart guy, but you are wrong here. They forbid rounds designed to maim or cause unnecessary harm. There is a lot of documented evidence including JAG opinions on this.

http://dtic.mil/...2armaments/Parks.pdf

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/...century/dec99-03.asp

FYI.

"1. Hollow point ammunition. Typically, this is semi-jacketed ammunition that
is designed to expand dramatically upon impact. This ammunition is
prohibited for use in armed conflict by customary international and the
treaties mentioned above. There are situations, however, where use of this
ammunition is lawful because its use will significantly reduce collateral
damage to noncombatants and protected property (hostage rescue, aircraft
security)."

Source:
INTERNATIONAL AND OPERATIONAL LAW DEPARTMENT
THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL'S SCHOOL, U.S. ARMY
CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA
LAW OF WAR DESKBOOK

Also consider the use of frangible ammo? That disintegrates on impact and causes a lot of unneccesary harm, yet was used in urban combat situations to reduce collateral damage.

I'm not saying that hollowpoints are allowed by treaties in all situations, nor are they even practical. But they certainly are not banned by the Hague Convention as your blanket statement suggest, nor would that convention apply in our recent conflicts as they haven't been actual declarations of war, nor were they between signatory parties.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Did you even read what you posted?

1. Hollow point ammunition. Typically, this is semi-jacketed ammunition that
is designed to expand dramatically upon impact. This ammunition is
prohibited for use in armed conflict by customary international and the
treaties mentioned above.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Developed for Socom, but resubmitted during the last pre-select for a past M9 replacement that never happened. It is my understanding that it is common for the military to solicit such even when they have no immediate plans to replace the weapon in question. Don't know the reason, but it happens.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Forge and Slowguy - there's only 1 way to settle this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWykx7IShK4

and pilots...

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

right. Not usually practical to keep a long gun in the cockpit.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

No?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Your a piece of work. You lectured me on saying pice shootings of in ocent people happens all the time as a blanket statement than have the the balls to do the same thing with an even bigger blanket statement despite the evidence that concludes you are wrong. While the term hollow point might be used in the treaty. One of the sources provided says hollow point was a generic term that should apply to function not looks. The Ballistics have changed a lot in 115 years. Hollow points do not cause unnecessary suffering, they prevent collateral damage and increase accuracy. So that 115 year old definition has no meaning today anyways. In fact the common 5.56 round designed to wound not kill by tumbling and splitting falls into this category more than most current "hollow point" bullets to. And again, this convention doesn't apply to us in our current conflicts with non-signatory belligerents.

It is ok to admit you are wrong. It not like you will melt like if somebody were to throw water on you.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Quote:

The Ballistics have changed a lot in 115 years. Hollow points do not cause unnecessary suffering, they prevent collateral damage and increase accuracy. So that 115 year old definition has no meaning today anyways.

Whether ballistics have changed or not has no impact on the issue being discussed. The round chosen was the 9mm Parabellum (which is Latin for "for war") and it was chosen because it was standardized with NATO as being suitable under the restrictions of international law for the use of hollow point rounds (among other things).

Quote:

And again, this convention doesn't apply to us in our current conflicts with non-signatory belligerents.

Whether it applies to a conflict in 2014 has nothing to do with how it influenced the decision to go with a particular round and weapon in the 1980s. Additionally, the US Military has to plan for the ability to fight an armed conflict with nation States. that means we have to be ready to fight with weapons that are permissible under international law, regardless of whether a particular convention applies to a particular conflict. We're not likely going to outfit the entire DoD with one weapon for declared war between nations, and another for limited conflicts.


If you are offended that I said the Hague Conventions ban expanding ammunition, and you're basing your outrage on the fact that the Hague has specific legal applicability, then you're wasting your outrage.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

But you initial assertion is irrelevant anyways. Because the .40 is available in ball like all ammo. So it could be made to be in compliance if there was such a restriction in ALL circumstances. But you are right, there is no current designation for .40 ball ammunition. But that is simply a bureaucratic issue that if the us military wished could push through. .40 is just not the right round based on my original post. It has to small a pressure window and in my opinion too unstable for military use. Hollow points had nothing to do with the discussion until you introduced it.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

 
How bout Sig Sauer? I heard the Navy Seals refuse to use anything else. I'd take one of those over a glock any day.

Same thing I've heard. Its taken far too long.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I introduced it because I was asked a question. Quite frankly, your blathering about today's conflicts and frangible ammo were a distraction.

The bottom line is, we haven't gone to Glocks or some other weapon for the US military for a variety of reasons, one of which is a desire to remain standardized with NATO, which requires consideration about ammunition types and compliance with international law.

The biggest reason is probably just money, since that's what drives most of these types of things. It's expensive to replace every sidearm in all branches of the DoD, and then replace the ammunition in the stock system, and then retrain and qualify everyone on a new weapon.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There is and always will be the need for soldiers to volunteer to fight at close quarters. To them there is a whole lot of use. To the average POG not so much.

Don't feel bad for not knowing because military leaders forget quite frequently.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Sig or H&K would be my choice.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Agree on the Glock, though I think a 9mm works fine, and the trade-offs required by the .45 don't justify the benefits, imo.

It seems like a no-brainer, really. I think maybe the lack of an external safety makes the pistol seem unsafe in the eyes of some of the more bureaucratic decision makers.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I love sig sauer to, at least the old ones. In fact, the sig 226 was a close second to the berretta in the original trials. I could see that being in the run. Frankly, I don't see any pistol in its current form because part of the prestige of having a pistol selected, is the consumer market it brings. The glock 17 - 19 are perhaps the two most popular gun models in existence, but they are 25 years old. A lot of people own them already. Same with the sig sauer, however, a 226 is much pricier. That is what I recall edged out the berretta. FNH would benefit the most with an existing model. Let's not forget H&K.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The Sigs price is probably why if lost to the M9. Notice it didnt lose in units that care more about their people.

H&K would be awesome and they have been tested and used before.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

That would not surprise me in the least. It would be quite humorous if that were the case, given the near monopoly of Glocks in law enforcement, but, I bet you are right.

There are some benefits to a hammer-fired pistol. The trigger pull is usually a bit smoother b/c the trigger is merely releasing the hammer rather than drawing back the striker. I feel safer packing cocked and locked with a manual safety on a hammer-fired pistol. I can place my thumb on the hammer while re-holstering the pistol for added piece of mind. That said, it is easier to get crap into place I do not want crap with an exposed hammer. Seems like I am cleaning a lot more of the gun when I strip my hammer-fired pistols.

I dunno. A Glock 17 w/ 17 rounds of 9mm seems to fit the bill just fine.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Do you mean Pogue or REMF? I'm not familiar with a POG. Seriously, just asking.

The pistol that won the socom trials was the HK, MK 23 I believe. That thing is a beast. With a suppressor it is bigger than a sub machine gun.

But I could see the USP (Like Jack Bauer's) or some derivative being up there.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Here you go. The USP has the same dimension, but the USP Compacts were popular with LE depts. at one point.



Compact

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The SEALs will wait until the decision is made, and then pick something different. If the Army selects the Sig, they'll switch to Glock. Or probably something more obscure. They just love to be "different." Even their Humvees are a little different.

I've shot a Glock and wasn't over impressed with it as compared to what I was told was the Canadian Forces issue side arm (a Browning?). I actually preferred the feel of the Browning over the Glock, thought the grip was a little goofy. Mind you, my exposure to side arms amounts to a couple of visits to Wild West in West Edmonton Mall and a visit to a gun club.

I heard they all use whatever they want on an individual basis.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Half truth. They get a lot of latitude, but there's also a lot of standardization within SOCOM.

Walther PPK. If it's good enough for James Bond ...




Truth be told, this is one of my favorite guns and my go-to carry.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Both :)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=POG

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I was thinking USP. Won SOCOM years ago.


http://www.militaryfactory.com/...asp?smallarms_id=235 nice history lesson.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

And they are squids so it's easy to understand.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

have a few good friends in the teams, most shoot sig p220's/p226's, one shoots a Glock (.45), and another a 1911 (but he is on a "special team"). They tend to stick to 9mm/.45, but most prefer the .45. If you have been in long enough and or on different teams you can get more latitude but the Sig's are just really well made.

Now as to what will they choose? I will bet S&W or Springfield, pretty sure it has to have an external safety and a decocking level that can be easily reached with the thumb. If i am not mistaken if they want to switch to a new caliber the gun that is submitted has to have an explination as why they should switch calibers. That was a very big deal a few years ago when they had the carbine/rifle competition to pick a new gun. That will rule out Glock right away. Sig's/HK/F&N are too expensive for big army, so it really leaves only a few serious players.

Why will that rule out Glock???

Glock 17/19 - 9mm
Glock 21 - .45

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Vladof usually have the highest fire rate, but Torgue rounds always explode. Dahl and Bandit generally suck skag balls..

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Why do they need new guns? Can't drones do the same thing without putting troops in danger? New pistols for what who uses a pistol combat still? These are long range wars with short range f*ck us costing lives. Spend the money on intelligence, my guess goes with the Glock Clan though...

My previous post was all over the place, glock will be ruled out not because of caliber but due to design. Glock has no external safety, no decocker, and is not double action in the classic sense that the army wants. Of course Glock argues that their safe action is superior, but the army a while back was emphatic about not liking Glocks design. If you google it there are some interesting articles discussing this exact issue since Glock would be a great choice as they are insanely reliable and cheap, but as always some old dudes up top think that if it does not have a classic safety it is not a safe gun.

That entire carbine test was BS, they published most of the results and the M4 did terribly compared to many of the weapons tested. The test actually convinced many other groups to switch to different weapon systems because of how good the results were, in particular the F&N Scar which is now used by the rangers, army sf, navy spec war, air force spec war, etc. All comes down to money and contracts and i am sure Colt made some deal to keep it going or there are just some real idiots in the decision making process.

I think there were close to 10 weapon systems which outperformed the M4 and most were offered at low prices, but of course they stick with the M4 which has some serious reliability issues in harsh conditions.

I have the USP compact and it's a sweet gun. I'm actually more accurate with it versus my friend's Sig 226 and M9.

I will probably test the Px4 Storm based on what I've read in the LR as well as other online reviews. Gut feel is that the vendor of choice will be 'merican made.

Beretta wasn't American made when selected. The m9 now is. FNH manufactures the m249 and m16s locally. The us subsidiaries submit the bids.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Sig is the sidearm of choice for Canadian military and many police forces. Know a number of guys that carry one and would be highly resistant to swapping.

As far as hollowpoint goes... I believe Slowguy is right.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Browning is/was being phased out. SigP 226. OPP and Vancouver PD have adopted Sigs as well as RCMP ERT to name a few.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I owned one of those many, many years ago until it was stolen out of a vehicle. As much as I loved it, the damn thing weighs so much for such a small gun that shoots .380. There are a lot better carry guns around now since the polymer revolution, but I agree, the PPK is just so sweet. And, it looks sexy as hell.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

I've got a Kahr CW 380 that I'm loving right now.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Gold plated .50 Desert Eagle is really the only logical and practical choice...in fact, standard issue should be to carry two in a shoulder holster or criss cross holster on the back of the waist.

Okay, so that makes sense. Found this tidbit of stuff too,
http://www.casr.ca/101-army-smallarm-4.htm

I had one in .50. Not gold plated. Sold it. It was great fun for a few trips to the range. But utterly ridiculous and impractical. The thing weighed as much as an M4. It jammed about once per magazine. Each time the failure mode would be different. It was obscenely loud. So much so that people at the range would stop shooting and come over to see WTF was I doing. One lady shooter once cussed me out and left. Too much for her. Huge fireball. Ceiling tiles above me would buckle at an indoor range. And then there's the recoil. Best described as barely manageable. Ammo was expensive, about a dollar a round, however since the pistol would beat me up pretty quickly the ammo consumption was kind of self limiting.

The Army should select the Sig P226. They'd get the best full size combat pistol there is, and they'd get some parts commonality with 228/M11 not to mention familiar controls.

But logic won't win the contract. Bean counters and politics will play a larger role than the range testing. IIRC back in the 80s when they were replacing the .45 in testing the P226 jammed once for so many thousands of rounds, Berretta jammed a few times, and everything else jammed more. The control 1911 jammed the most, which should not be a surprise to anyone who's familiar with it.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Huh??? What was the control 1911? I have 3 and carried an Army issued one for many years and never, ever, had a jam. Ever. 1911 is old reliable.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Agreed. The 1911 was the pistol I learned on, and I never had a jam. Our instructors actually had to deliberately induce or set up jams to simulate a problem so we could go through the process of clearing.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Colt?

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I could replace every other round in a 1911 with a turd from my weimaraner and it still would not jam.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I think the thing that would kill the glock option is the lack of an external safety. My money is on a Sig 226 or HK45.

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Don't hold back

No external safety on the 226, either, though.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I think you are right. I think that is absolutely, positively crazy, but, think you are right. Amazingly, nearly every law enforcement agency in the country does not see this as an issue.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Yeah you are right. Just the decocker with internal safety I guess.

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Don't hold back

I know this will never be in the running but what a sweet sidearm,,,,, other than the size and weight.





I think this was originally designed for special forces before they went with something else.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

I assume that most police officers who carry a weapon, carry it everyday. Most military don't. Most Sailors, for instance, might only carry a firearm 3 or 4 times a month for a 4hr watch period. Other than deployed Soldiers and Marines, most military don't carry a firearm on a daily basis.

I'm not a huge gun guy, so correct me if I've got this wrong, but internal safeties basically just prevent the weapon from firing from getting snagged on something or bumped. You have to pull the trigger. An external safety gives the brass that added feeling of comfort in knowing some knucklehead might pull the trigger accidentally or playing around and the safety will prevent the weapon from firing.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Yes, you are absolutely correct. I will admit that I will carry with a round in the chamber when carrying my gun with a manual safety. While I have done so with my Springfield or Glock, I am much less likely to do so. So, I guess I can actually see the logic. But, if I could only choose one gun, it would be a Glock. Glock is far from my favorite gun, but, it is nearly infallible.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Re: internal vs external safeties

No systems is infallible, so the tendency to point to an external safety being "more safe" is BS.

It's a hardware solution to a software problem.

IIRC the safety on the Glock is released by the squeezing the grip correct? That's the thing that sticks in my mind, was the fact that it required the introduction of additional muscle tension to get the gun to fire.

Remember you are talking about the military that teaches you to shoot move and kill but doesn't trust you with a magazine with live rounds unless you ask permission from division HQ. Some MOS I understand because they really dont practice their craft but when I used to see a combat MOS asked to pull guard and not be given live rounds if drove me crazy.

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Last line in gold.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Currently.in use.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Remember that not everyone in the military is trained to shoot, move, and kill. If they were making decisions just for the Army or just the USMC, then that might be true, but even then, maybe not. The AF and Navy mostly don't use firearms that way.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Not exactly. Springfields have a lever on the back of the grip that must be depressed. On the Glock, there are 3 internal safeties. They only release when the little lever on the trigger is depressed. So, it won't fire if dropped and is nearly impossible to fire if snagged.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Interesting partnership.


The Army’s draft MHS solicitation identifies design and performance requirements for a new modular handgun system that can be easily adjusted to fit all hand sizes and is optimized for improved gun, ammunition and magazine performance. The Army’s stated plan is to commence the competition in January 2015, with delivery of the first new handgun systems in 2017.

The strategic partnership’s Modular Handgun System will be based on the Smith & Wesson M&P polymer pistol platform. The M&P pistol has been in production since 2005.
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/...onarmyhandgunproject

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

We can Godwin this thread right now.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Fnh pistols can be had for the price of a glock.

The beretta did not have the decocker until they submitted for the pistol trials. The 1911 didn't have a manual safety until requested by horsed cavalry. Any pistol can be quickly modified to comply with any mechanical safety requirements. I wouldn't rule out anybody.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

More on the General Dynamics involvement.

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/...onarmyhandgunproject

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I thought that they opted for something smaller?

Which group of Spec Ops is using it?

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Beretta submitted the M9A3. Looks pretty sweet.

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/m9a3/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

So it goes. These events that pop up often result in those making the pistol already having a design change. While not materially different it is a new "a" standard.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Its still an M9.

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Yes. And?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

What's the advantage to a polymer guide rod?

It has high lubricity. I did not know that was a word.

Is the decocker like the fnh? 3 position? On, decock, and safety?

The theory: A metal guide rod can bend slightly causing battery failure. The polymer guide rod can bend without being deformed, thus eliminating that problem. I don't know whether that is true in practice, but, that is the theory.

FWIW, I replaced the polymer guide rods in my Glocks w/ tungsten, which are intentionally heavier to decrease muzzle rise and help stay on target.

The only other info available:

http://cdn2.hubspot.net/...ublic_Release_v1.pdf

http://cdn2.hubspot.net/...A3-configuration.pdf

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I was thinking why not use Tungsten?

I did not know Glocks come with polymer guiderods.

Not a fan of the Berreta. Different strokes.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Gotcha. I actually liked the M9. However, I have never purchased a Beretta 92, so, I guess I never liked it enough to spend my own money on one.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I guess I always wanted one but like you always found something leads I want more. I could never get over the exposes barrel. I always wondered how that wasn't a liability in reliability. Obviously it isn't or handguns are so seldom used hat harsh desert conditions never worked their magic.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I wondered the same thing when the Army first switched over. It works great for weight and wide open ejection. I carried one for a year in desert w/o issue. Then again, I wasn't rolling around in the sand with it. I always thought the same about the exposed hammer -- one more place where sand could enter.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

how about a couple of these hand cannons?

I was thinking more of the slide freezing Hammers have worked well in harsh conditions for centuries. Like I said, handguns don't see a lot of action, so maybe the reliability factor has never really been tested in the real world.

On other news, based on the submissions, it is looking like 9mm ball is hear to stay. Yes, the 9mm has improved greatly from an SD perspective, but for reasons discussed already, not practical in war. I never felt 9mm ball was effective, but I'm not making those decisions. 9mm ball has been around since before wwii like the .45 acp, this is all old technology. Surely something like this can be an opportunity for change. The 40 cal sounds like a good compromise until you consider the items discussed here already.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Is a new case going to really mean much of a difference for a handgun when recoil is the limiting factor? Or are you thinking something unconventional like the 4.6x30 or 5.7×28mm?

I Don't know. The 10mm was originally thought to be a superior alternative to the .45 giving additional capacity. It was developed by some of the best minds in military and civilian shooting Along with industry support. But was developed in a different time. Recoils has been an issue. The .40 could work ballistically but for reasons stated reliability and potential catastrophic failure due to cartridge pressure remove it as a contender.

Maybe it is time to revisit the .45 maybe the 10mm at a lower power. It would give you the .40 performance with a safer platform. Polymer framed pistols have take. A lot of the felt recoil away from both cartridges. Capacity isn't an issue like it was before. I don't know, just thinking out loud. But I do think if glock had got the glock 20 out before the FBI accepted a bunch of S&w .45 pistols converted to .45, they would be using it now and it would be getting serious consideration. The original 10mm pistols used were not designed for the 10mm, but instead conversions. The .45 is a low pressure cartridge so the frames didn't accept the ten right. So the whole experiment didn't meet expectations. The glock 20 was the opposite. It was designed for the 10mm and the .45 g21 was a byproduct of that. Giving you a well designed and manageable product. The recent run of delta elites were designed for the 10mm based on failures seen in the original model conceded from .45 1911s. Like I said, thinking out load and for every piece of evidence I could pull up, somebody could find the opposite. It is all about preference over a large population of varying skill levels.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Rejected.
http://bearingarms.com/...tm_campaign=baupdate

Looks like the sig 320 is getting an eye. Haven't been impressed with Sigs polymer track record and they are new to striker fired pistols.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Interesting. I have the PX4 Storm and it is a fantastic pistol.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Just the modification of the m9.

http://m.military.com/...-for-new-pistol.html

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I meant, it looks like they are going to consider the PX4. It is a great pistol. I don't know anything about the Sig.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Me either and have been researching. It is an evolution of the horrible p250. Which was a good concept but not designed well. It was a rough DAO with a long trigger pull and a weird hammer that wasn't a hammer. From my old sig forum, it looks like they perfected it but moved to striker. I'm curious enough to check out. I regret selling my old sig pro P2022 German made. Now all I can find are these us made versions with the oversized rails. Not a fan. That was a suite firing pistol.

The 250 and now the 320 is really a chassis. This chassis can switch between frames. So you can change calibers among sizes with a slide switch or switch from fs to a compact or sub compact with a kit. Sigs like HKs have high bore axese. A high bore axis promotes muzzle flip but are usually heavier slides which absorb more recoil. IMO great for beginners.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The SIG is getting some good reviews. Saw one yesterday at the store but didn't have them take out out for a closer inspection.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I need to stop with this thread and reviews about the 320. I got my bonus and am now talking myself out of buying one.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

My local gun store has one for 569 in FDE so 600 and tax out the door. Man, this is getting harder to resist. I was holding out for the new Sig 220 in 10mm that will get announced at month end. But had sig come out with this bad boy 5 years go, I would have never switched to glocks.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Yep the ones i saw were low to mid $500 and after reading reviews its very tempting.

The amount of "safety" that can be built into this one may put it over the top with a military who far to often wont even trust its troops with live rounds.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Maliwan all the way, when you need to set someone on fire, or electrocute them until their eyes pop out there is no substitute.

The original 1911 design did not have a manual safety. It was requested by mounted cavalry. The manual safety is an outdated design. But whatever.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I told you but I didn't listen. I haven't bought a 9 mm in five years but I did today.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Lol. Pictures or it didn't happen.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Pics to come. My plan was almost dashed when my kids were home with the flu and my wife worked from home. But I snuck away for an hour. Just couldn't snap a pick. It is FDE, a first for me. I bought the compact, and it works with my sig p245 holster. It conceals as good if not better. Holds 15 rounds. The handle is different. Not a traditional sig, 1911, or glock angle. So quick draw doesn't line up naturally perfect yet. But that will remedy with some drawing practice. All others are automatic for me. But this is a wild card. All my Sigs are metal except this one. 1911s just feel like 1911s on the draw so never been an issue. And glocks are polymer, so I instinctively knew that was a glock on the draw and aimed accordingly.

But this changes it all. It is also my first ambi gun. The slide release is on both sides. So I'll have to be mindful of getting in the habit of a slide release. I always uses slingshot. Better to stick with that.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I read that the handle is at a slightly different angle. Not good or bad but different especially for someone used to sigs.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I found it remedied with an isosceles stance vs a weaver. I was trained with the weaver stance when I first started shooting pistol but used isosceles in competitions, at it works better with glocks, so if I get out of practice, I find my stance goes somewhere in between. Works fine with Pseries sigs or 1911 which I have been shooting, but glocks tend to go POA a little to the right. This pistol was doing that as well. So when I practiced drawing with isosceles last night, it was spot on. So while it isn't a glock handle, it's aiming is closer to it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaver_stance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isosceles_Stance

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

So you got to get out and out some rounds through it?

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Hey slowguy. Having just bought a potential contender in this MHS bid, I have become obsessed with learning more. This excerpt caught my attention and I immediately thought of you. I'll stay civil, I promise.

From an article, "Just like law enforcement and civilian shooters, the military is faced with the decision of what cartridge suits their needs best. Cartridges like .40 S&W and .357 SIG are hard on shooters and hard on guns, even if they deliver a harder-hitting payload. Browning’s storied .45 ACP loads a big, heavy bullet, but it takes up a lot of space, increasing grip sizes and decreasing magazine capacity.
The results of the program may find that a different bullet, not cartridge, may be the answer to their current 9mm problems, and is requesting that potential contractors supply ball and jacketed hollow point ammunition with their submissions."


http://www.guns.com/...wants-a-new-handgun/


So what does this mean? Bringing back this debate, your stance would suggest this would be a direct violation of the Hague Treaty. Why would they even consider this? The dilemma suggested seem to only be reconciled via some sort of hollow point. Do they think there is enough wiggle room to get around that? Which would suggest I was correct.

Or point three, do they intend to just violate it and say fuck off or renegotiate the treaty?

One possible solution to the feeding issue would be using hollow point ammo with polymer filling or balls. States like New York forbid hollow points, but ammo like power ball isn't technically a hollowpoint since a polymer ball fills in the cavity and is a loophole. What the find is such ammo feeds more reliable than hollowpoints. But it still expands?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Put about 150 rounds through it today. Different wait fmh for the first hundred and various 9mm hollow points premium and cheap. Initial impressions. So far the balance of any quality polymer framed pistol like glock or S&w. Reliability on par with glock. No failures the whole round. The slide didn't lock on a couple empty mags, but could be a result of a brand new tight slide spring or now having to adjust to an ambi slide lock where my right hand rest. Accuracy of a sig which is better than a glock. Easy to follow up shots. Did Mozambique drills with four mags of fifteen rounds at distances of 15 and 30 feet.

But most important, the trigger. Stock is better than glock or S&w. A reset on par with glock. But best of all no trigger safety mechanism that is present in both glocks and S&w. I always preferred a metal trigger over plastic and while I got used to the safety mechanism. Never really liked it. It made switching guns a slight adjustment. This will be an option soon , but I will pass.

It did affect using my .357 with two hands after. Still had one handeds down. But hey, two different guns and very different power cartridges causes this.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Two issues to consider.

1. The Hague treaties prohibit the use of expanding bullets in international conflict between contracting parties; i.e. countries who sign the treaties. There is wiggle room for justification in using these types of rounds when combatting non-state actors, terrorists, etc who do not represent those nations.

2. The military also uses firearms for internal law enforcement and security, and the Hague treaties wouldn't apply there either.

So, the DoD could certainly have use for these types of rounds in certain mission sets or environments.


Here's an interesting legal analysis of the Hague prohibitions, and whether or not we should rethink them. For the record, I am perfectly happy with the idea of getting rid of that prohibition. However, it's not as easy as just deciding to do it.

https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/...hua%20F.%20Berry.pdf

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Small world. I know Maj Josh Berry from a previous life.

With regard to everything else slowguy said - spot on.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Would jsoc or intelligence agencies and their paramilitaries be subject to these restrictions?

I also never said it could be just done. Only that it could be done. It might not be accepted or appreciated by our allies, but certainly negotiated. Case in point the use of hollow points by snipers. A legal analysis done and possible defense created.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I got 15 pages in. This clears up a lot of things and I'm glad to see their reasoning is on par with mine.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Anything can be done. It just depends on how much you care about following the law.

The point in the previous portion of the thread was not that expanding rounds / hollow points could or should or should not be used. It was just that one of the primary reasons we have the weapons and rounds that we have now is out of a desire to comply with that restriction.


As to your question, JSOC is a component of the US Military, so I would imagine that they are subject to all the same restrictions on use of hollow points as the rest of our military, with the same wiggle room I mentioned earlier.

Intelligence agencies are something different, and I don't know what international law would say. I would offer that, assuming you're talking about spies and counterterrorism cells, if they are shooting people, it may not be strictly legal for a variety of reasons aside from the type of round used. They are not legal combatants. They are not members of the military. They are not conducting law enforcement activities. If they're shooting people in foreign countries, they're likely violating those countries' laws. If they're shooting them here, they're probably violating ours, with regard to arrest and trial etc. I doubt those guys care much about adding on a charge of using illegal ammunition. Now, they might get around that by carrying weapons strictly for "self defense" in a private capacity, but that would still require them to comply with the laws of whatever country they are working in. Short answer is that I don't really know what the full answer is, but I doubt those particular folks care very much. Again, if they're not representing our nation engaged in armed conflict against another nation, the Hague stuff doesn't really apply. There are other pieces that make up the customary law on the subject (as you can see in the paper I linked), but the Hague treaties seem to be the primary source of the prohibition.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

. Specifically I'm talking about special activities division. A civilian paramilitary. Some might call them assassination teams or search and destroy teams. The reason I noted jsoc is they often work with with CIA SAD. As I'm sure you are aware Whether counter-terrorism activities fall under global law enforcement or general warfare is often modified changed to suit different needs. We see this with enhanced interrogation or indefinite detention of enemy combatants even if they are us citizens.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Not to drag up an old thread, but I guess Beretta has a new gun they are going to submit. Between this, sig sauer 320, and the M&P. It is definitely going to be striker fired.

http://soldiersystems.net/...ired-pistol-at-idex/

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Doing some follow up research on this read the last sentence. I had confirmed with some local police contacts in Florida that they were moving back to 9mm. Looks like the FBI is to. My guess is the .40 has run its course. With current technology making the terminal ballistics of 9mm on par with .40 and just a tiny bit weaker than .45, why go with a bullet with dangerous pressures and reasons discussed.

http://www.armytimes.com/...licitation/22120459/

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I've been meaning to ask how the SIG is doing. Have you had it back on the range?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Yes, I like it a lot. Made me like 9mm again. It is a compact model, not carry, so I conceals well to. It is going to be a interesting what they pic. Unfortunately, I think politics will play a huge roll.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

This is such an easy call......the gun the military should have purchased back in 2005 during the JCPP that got scratched. Threaded barrel for suppressor, suppressor night sights, full ambi controls, 15 round .45 ACP capacity, cutouts on slide for red dot optic. My local xchange has the FNX 45 tactical with range case, three mags for $1,095......I need this gun!

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

That is a crying shame. Cannot wait to see how badly those "ridges" on the slide get hung up on stuff.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

They would never use .45 for general use again unfortunately.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

It's available in 9 mm as well.......

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"I would definitely smell her seat after a century ride"

Looking at this possibly for my gf. Do you still have yours and if so any other thoughts?

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Yes and I like it. But I fear Sig Sauer has screwed up big time on marketing. They designed all these new pistols and rifles on the premise of modularity, but they haven't met those timeframes. They have managed to get some conversion kits out there, but they aren't readily available. I'm still having trouble finding a .45 conversion. Also, few tactical or kydex holsters exist for this pistol. But otherwise I really like it. I have the compact and do not feel undergunned with it at all, but the lack of a tactical holster means I couldn't use it in competition. Leather holsters work fine. But I think they are hedging on police contracts or another Democrat Gun Scare before they really get anything out there.

The 556 xi has worked very well for me, but I was betting on accessory rails and some other accessories that haven't some out. I've heard the same issue with the MPX modular platform.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Good to know. She wants a pistol and this one cane to mind.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I bought this pistol back in the Spring exactly as pictured sans the suppressor. I have never served in combat, but I can't see why this wouldn't be a leading contender for all of the reasons you mentioned.

This has replaced my Glock 19 9mm as my HD weapon since it has the laser and red dot and also because the stopping power is multiples of a 9mm. I do love shooting the Glock and agree with JSA about it being absolutely infallible and 'unjammable', but I love the FNX more. It is so easy to fire with easily handled recoil, minimal muzzle rise, fast follow up shots, and it is easy to put rounds in the target at 50'. There are multiple ways to carry it since it is SA/DA. Everything is ambidextrous. You can safely carry with a round chambered and decocked if that's your preference. The 12lb. trigger pull for the first round will prevent you from 'accidentally' squeezing off an unintended shot.

I. Love. This. Gun.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

I've always felt the FNH pistol line was underrated. The biggest complaint I hear is the trigger, but it is a combat pistol, not a match pistol. With that said, it looks like they are moving from DA/SA, which I have always felt is ideal for combat or law enforcement.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

They are, seriously, a study in industrial design.

Checked one out today and really liked it. I guess it's time to sell the 226.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

What size?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Probably compact 9mm.

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

That is the one I have. I would not feel underfunded with that.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Look who is out.

http://kitup.military.com/...tol-competition.html

That leaves glock, fnh, sig and Beretta with their striker gun. To be honest, of the 4 left, ony glock doesn't have a m designation on a gun. FNH has made M16s and SAW guns forever, SIG has the M11, and Beretta is Beretta, they squeezed out SIG on cost when they won the m9 contract.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I saw that yesterday. I'm very surprised.

That said....

Sig is technically the only entrant that only entrant has met the RFP. If the Army follows it's own criteria, Sig should be the only entrant that "can" win the contract. I didn't think, however, that the Army would follow it's own criteria so strictly. Glock has a lot of fans in the armed forces (they're super popular amongst anyone operating under SOCOM) and they certainly have earned their reputation but I don't see them winning this contract as their submittal cannot really be construed to be "modular".

Yes, the Glock has gained unofficial popularity. NAval special warfare moved to them after 20+ years with the 226.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

That was not a big surprise considering the number 1 most individually purchased pistol by guys in Naval Specwar was a glock, often in .45. Considering its cheaper, no salt water/sand issues, and idiot proof, its hard to beat as a standard service pistol. For 200 extra bucks you can get a new trigger and storm lake barrel and its the real deal. Only other pistols that i know guys will buy on their own is the USP and Sig 227, both .45.

I am slightly surprised the HK VP9 has not made a serious attempt at contracts, essentially the same as Glock but a better trigger.

I thought S&W would be a strong contender, but I'm not entirely surprised. Military Arms Channel recently did a adverse conditions test and the M&P would consistently hydrolock (fail to fire when submerged with water). That plus their initial issue with poor accuracy due to barrel dimensions and shit-triggers that had to be re-tuned made me not entirely a fan.

H&Ks have a reputation for being over engineered. Not saying that is the true or not, but it is the perception. They also tend to be very bulky compared to any other pistol. Very rugged and robust though.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I didn't catch that. I've been a bit "out of the loop" for the last two years as I haven't had time to indulge my "other" hobby. Hydrolock is a no no for pistols. For gas operated rifles it's understandable but not for a weapon with a relatively short barrel operating on blow-back at comparatively low pressures.

Glock filed a protest.

https://kitup.military.com/...andgun-system-2.html

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

On what grounds?

Do the pistols they submitted even meet the requirements of the contract? (I think those requirements were ridiculous and contrived, and I think the Glock is the no-brainer choice for a contract like this, but still.)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I'm sure you know as others this is standard. Sig did the same against Beretta and then glock after the FBI selection. If anything it helps sig since it gives them 100 more days to get production up.

Glock would be negligent to its shareholders if it didn't exhaust every avenue. But not likely to change anything.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The best I can ascertain, Glock is claiming it's design was improperly disregarded as not being "modular." As Forge mentions, this is SOP for these contracts and likely is just Glock doing its due diligence.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Dumb. I get that it's SOP, it's still dumb and a waste of time. What's the point?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

One could argue that Glocks were the first modular pistol. I swapped uppers, lowers, and magazines all the time, but certainly not modular within the design parameters and at a cheaper cost.

So I suspect this goes nowhere and 100 days pass with no action.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I agree. But, the ridiculous government procurement process provides for such protests, so, IMO, Glock has to use every avenue available.

Maybe Trump has Glock stock in one of his portfolios ...

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I wish The Forge was still here!

Apparently, the Army's new handgun can fire if dropped. That can't be good. Glocks never fire when dropped. Just sayin' ...


The handgun chosen to be the U.S. Army's next generation handgun can fire if dropped while loaded. Tests conducted by gun bloggers has confirmed the gun will fire if dropped at a particular angle. The testing followed a multi-million dollar lawsuit by a Connecticut police officer who alleges he was injured after his Sig 320 handgun went off, critically injuring him.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/...17-drop-test-roblem/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

The Military version is different than the civilian/police version. This issue only affects the non-military version.

TheForge is alive and well on the SigTalk forum.

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Suffer Well.

Do you have a link for that? Asking for my own edification.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

http://soldiersystems.net/...untary-p320-upgrade/

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Suffer Well.

There is an awful lot of bullshit in the CEO's statement. His comments regarding no gun being designed to be dropped are irresponsible.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR