you might start a plastic surgery rage...

Interesting that I feel faster without sleeves, but it's just probably b/c I feel cooler and can push harder. perception, maybe.

Do you see more size options coming in the future, as it's obviously important? I wear a MT wetsuit, but that's not really a tri suit option.

More like swimmer build vs sickly racing weight triathlete build.

Here's TO from 2013. He tested the top in the tunnel, and it was significantly faster, but is looks like it has tons or wrinkles for him.



Crowie and Luke look better, but still not wrinkle-free. I wonder at what lever of wrinkles the top actually detracts (esp. since putting something on in T1 won't be a clean as having all day to fit a skinsuit before testing or a TT).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Where did you hear/read about TO testing the top? I never heard anything about him in a wind tunnel... ever. Not that it hasn't happened, just that I've read/seen nothing about him specifically.

Also, even though Luke, TO, Crowie, etc tested the products and they tested faster doesn't mean they had the same wrinkles during testing. They likely didn't have wrinkles but considering they were frantically putting their tops on out of the swim in Kona, they then got the wrinkles. Plus, I've seen pictures of Luke testing his top in the velodrome where he got his results... he had no (or hardly any) wrinkles.

I volunteered in the transition tent in Kona this year, and a number of athletes had problems getting their tops on in T1. This was not so much of an issue with the full zip Castelli tops, but it definitely took some time for the guys who were wearing suits like the PI one rolled down around their waists during the swim. There were several guys that I saw who wasted a good deal of time wrestling their way into those suits. I guess it's just a question of how much time you save with the suit vs. the time it costs to pull it on. Of course, I also saw many guys who forgot to take their swimskins off until they'd already put their bike shoes on or, for quite a few guys, until they were on their way out of the tent.

Then, there were several other guys, including a few pros, that either forgot to take the long-sleeve shirt off in T2 or took their long-sleeve shirt off and then grabbed the wrong shirt on the way out the door (as was discussed in another thread). There was also at least one pro who intended to change out of the suit in T2, but forgot to pack running shorts in her run bag. She did the marathon with the top of the suit rolled down around her waist. So, if you're planning on wearing sleeves just for the bike leg, there's two times that you can lose time in transition in a non-wetsuit race.

My bad. TO went to the wind tunnel, but that was in 2011 (not '13). Castelli did wind tunnel testing on the top, but not with TO.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Yea...who is that guy in the white and what does he know about a time trial anyway? Clearly not much... /pink

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Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

The guy in the white is wearing a custom-made speedsuit that has a retail cost of well over $1000. So, I'm betting that he has very few wrinkles in the aero position.

From the numbers I've seen during the AeroCamps I run, if it takes you 3 minutes to put it on the majority of people will still be ahead.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Very cool to hear you will be in Toronto next year!!

I've been following your approach + testing results on ST for a while but was always too far away to even think about getting some testing done. Anyway...I doubt I'd be able to justify the cost of testing next year...but if you need any volunteers for set-up, etc...I wouldnt mind helping out for a day or two. It will give me a chance to observe the testing and benefits first hand. Please keep me in mind if this is something you may find useful.

...and thanks for the free advice on clothing!

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Duathlete by choice?

And I'm sure there are several of us that would love to have you back at the Carson Velodrome.

He was also in the LSWT tunnel in 2012 as a part of the Mavic event that introduced the CXR80 wheelset. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4098851#4098851

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I hope is a cycling-specific piece, because while their tri line fits me perfectly, the sleeves on their higher-end cycling kit is disappointing ( for a very tall and skinny athlete - 140lbs on a 6"2 frame). My team uses Champ Sys, so there's always a way to justify a purchase.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

First, I'm happy that you've shared what you've shared. Thanks for that. Second, knowledge is cool, ain't it?

"Wrinkly skin is the slowest"

I've been dumbfounded how much Jim has shared. Think of all the helmets and suits born out of the Alphamantis experiments.

Sharing the knowledge is some of the most fun I have; I'm learning right along with everyone else (and I have a plan to share much more!). We've certainly had companies tell us that virtually every time we post about their product, their sales numbers go up. We do understand we have that sort of impact. I'm pretty sure you could get a PI Tri Octane pretty cheap on one of the clearance web sites until we started posting about it's effectiveness, the Castelli T1 Stealth came from our testing with Leanda Cave and her desire for a two-piece tri suit (or at least sped up the project), we all know where the Champ-Sys Apex came from, and I along with everyone else discovered how good LG is at making fast helmets over the past 15 months. We don't expect anyone to kiss our collective arses for any of this, we just want to continue moving the needle and help people go faster.

A couple of points for everyone:

1. While there are some good suits out there, I don't think any one has hit it out of the park yet. There's plenty of room for improvement.
2. When looking at how clothing fits, we need to understand/remember that your bike position will have a significant effect. If you take a good look at the Triathlete mag pic, you'll notice Macca's elbows are narrower than the others. Certainly this would lead to more wrinkling at the shoulders and hurt the performance of the suit (it also pulls the sleeve up towards the shoulders causing wrinkles on the arm). This doesn't mean that narrow elbows are a bad thing, it just means you need to understand your position will alter the suit's fit. Just trying it on standing up is not enough; bring your bike with you if you're going to try one on and make sure it fits in aero.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

You're correct about the Octane, that I didn't ever post about due to the non-disclosure agreement, which is how we got so many competitors to work together. PI customized that first Octane for me, and added a longer zipper, which PI now incorporates into production. Sales took off. Kiwami, another of the wardrobe products tested finally had their new sleeved suit at Kona this year. You noted some of Champ-Sys' developments. Not only LG, but three or four helmets evolved after those tests. Then, there were the bikes too. Notable are some of the variables we tested that never got public data exposure, thus still offer opportunities for significant gains. As Robert wrote (I think quoting Bevis or Butthead) "knowledge is cool" and sometimes more than cool.

Jim,
Any thoughts on the compressport tops, I have one, it fits very well but the material on both the front and the back is not smooth, its very rippled, presumeably for cooling. This surely would be very very bad for aerodynamics.

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Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics

We are already on the schedule for an AeroCamp there on Jan 28 and March 1. Would love to have you out.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Any chance you could expand on your point you mention about 'patterning' is this material texture.
The T1 stealth seems to have a textured material on the back, would this improve aerodynamics in terms of helping the air stick?
The compressport one I have is very textured to say the least, not sure if this is a good thing!

Any thoughts on how throwing water all over the suit/tops like in Kona would affect their performance?

I'm going to "attempt" to keep this short - we'll see if I succeed. Just know this explanation will be simplified a great deal.

Just to be clear on nomenclature: the pattern is the actual cut, or shape of the panels, on an article of clothing. Where the panels are placed can have a large impact on how a piece of clothing fits and feels, and the fit, as discussed, will have an effect on air flow around the clothing. Texture is how a piece of fabric is woven, and a particular piece of fabric's texture can be altered depending on the weave pattern. Texture can also be added by a process known as flocking. Material texture can also have a significant impact on air flow around an article of clothing.

Typically, utilizing textured material in a performance piece of clothing like a tri suit is an attempt to create air turbulence. This might seem counter-intuitive, as turbulent air causes more drag over a surface than a nice, laminar, flow, but really what the manufacturer is doing is choosing between the lesser of two evils. Between the two types of drag: friction and pressure, pressure drag is by far the worst. When air separates from an object, pressure drag is created. However, if you can delay the separation of the air from an object, pressure drag is reduced and that object moves through the air more freely. As it turns out, turbulent air, while causing more friction drag, delays the separation of air from an object and, therefore, reduces the amount of pressure drag. This is commonly known as "tripping the boundary layer" and is best illustrated by the dimples on a golf ball.

If you're still with me on this, let me add to the equation that an article of clothing's pattern can also act as a Boundary Layer Trip, mostly due to the placement of seams connecting the patterns which form the piece of clothing.

The question some are trying to solve is: What is the best combination of pattern and textured material for delaying separation of air from an article of clothing on an athlete's body? Answer this, and you'll have a fast piece of clothing. Castelli is pretty darn good at it, and the placement of seams and specific textured materials on the T1 in specific places is their attempt to reduce pressure drag while allowing for a piece that fits properly with adequate comfort and range of motion (the fit being very important).

Hopefully that all makes sense. It's probably an article I should just write to provide a better explanation, but time always seems so short.

By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Thank you Jim, that is really interesting. I saw Marcells post above and with the same top I was wondering the same thing.

I have gone back and put my compressport top on and it's pretty wrinkly!

Another quick question if you don't mind. This seems to be an area of aerodynamics that doesn't seem to have a standard as such. i.e. there is no way of looking at something and saying that is more aero than anything else.
If I was to get the castelli top, is it likely the difference between that and the compressport one would be detectable in aero testing on the road using aerolab? I know it probably depends on the difference, but if Castelli are claiming 3 minutes in an ironman over their own tri-suit that likely dictates a significant difference could be found.

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Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics