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The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops
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They're all the rage. As well they should be - there are significant time savings to be had, as well as UV protection and the ability to keep you cooler. I'm pretty sure we've done more testing with sleeved tri suits than anyone in the world at this point. Every aero test we conduct prioritizes position first, and then clothing. Here's the rub, I think for many athletes the suits are not working as intended for one very specific reason: fit. Paul Harder from Trek coined the phrase, "Skin is slow." This simple sentence is very true, but the problem is this...wrinkles are worse.

If these new suits do not fit correctly, they're likely slowing you down. Fit is the single most important factor which determines if a sleeved suit will provide benefit or loss. A properly fit top/suit needs to be tight; it needs to wrap you like a second skin. If it wrinkles while in your aero position, you've just slowed yourself down. I think, at this point, it's important to convey this clearly to all of you because there's very little knowledge in the retail world about the suits and, to be quite honest, not much more knowledge from many of the manufacturers who make them.

This presents a problem for consumers. How do you know of one of these suits will work for you? Well, without actually testing them, you don't; however, since not everyone can aero test, you need to try them on before buying them. Simulate the aero position or, better yet, bring your bike and drop into aero. Are there wrinkles (there will always be a wrinkle or two, but there shouldn't be much)? If so, no matter how much you like the suit, it likely isn't going to work.

Secondary to fit is materials used (I consider the suit's pattern part of the fit). Material is important, to be sure, but you could literally go buy yourself some lycra from a local store, have a suit sewn up to custom fit you, and it will be faster (possibly faster than most anything else).

As far as I can tell, there's really only two ways to help guarantee a sleeved suit will be faster. 1. Make multiple sizes of each size for different body types. You won't see this happen because retailers simply can't/won't carry that many sku's. 2. Custom make the suit to each individual athlete. Only Bioracer is doing this, I believe (at least with any type of consistency), and the price is pretty crazy. Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.

Okay, I felt I needed to get that information out there. Nothing that hasn't already been stated, but after Kona I'm sure there will be renewed interest. Oh, and just to get it out of the way:
  1. Pealr Izumi Tri Octane seem to still be King of the Mountain...if it fits.
  2. The 2015 Castelli T1 Stealth top is really, really good...if it fits.

Questions?

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Jim,
As you know, some other suits test better on some riders, me for example. One of the things I found since you, Andy and I tested suits is that the suits test differently after the swim, and after being worn a few times, so lots of work has to go into suit testing and selection. One suit that tested well for a few weeks went to hell after a few months. The best thing anyone can do is test with you, or at a wind tunnel.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I think I need to trademark "Skin is slow, wrinkles are slower."
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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DamonHenry wrote:
Hey Jim,
As you know, some other suits test better on some riders, me for example. One of the things I found since you, Andy and I tested suits is that the suits test differently after the swim, and after being worn a few times, so lots of work has to go into suit testing and selection. One suit that tested well for a few weeks went to hell after a few months. The best thing anyone can do is test with you, or at a wind tunnel.

Yep, I think a very important point to make about these suits is they're race suits; they're not for everyday training. In fact, they're probably only good for a dozen uses at best (I'm probably being generous). Just like cycling skin suits, they'll stretch, and both the fit and fabric lose their effectiveness. This makes it tough for us to keep them on hand for testing. Unless a manufacturer wants to keep supplying us with suits, we can't test the same suits over and over again and expect them to perform.

Testing the suits wet is something we plan to do in the very near future.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Nice post.

What goodies does PI have for 2015?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.

Tell me more :-)

(P.S. Some skinsuit manufacturers will do "split sizing", e.g. small cut top, medium cut bottom...aka "Tyrannosaurus Rex Cut" ;-)...on custom team kits. I know Voler does this, for example).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?


Yep, painted on.

Funny you mention Champ Sys. Of course, many know the Apex was born out of our testing with Luke McKenzie last year, and it's a good suit...if it fits. However, I suspected another piece of kit they make would be even an better tri suit, and our testing of that piece has proven that to be correct. Now the fact that this piece tests faster is no big surprise. The surprising thing is, and I admit I never saw this coming, this particular suit, while tighter fitting, is actually far more comfortable than the Apex! Every single athlete, and I mean every one, puts it on and, despite not being a tri-specific piece of clothing, they boldly claim they want to use the suit due to its comfort and range of motion. I can't say much more than that, but don't be surprised to see a new suit announced very soon in time for next season. My guess is that suit will be right up there with the best of them.

As far as the front vs rear zip. Both our testing and Specialized's has shown that the rear zip "tails" are aero neutral, and I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to slip on a rear zip suit coming out of the water.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Last edited by: Jim@EROsports: Oct 15, 14 8:13
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad I already own both the Pearl Izumi Octane and the Castelli T1 Stealth!

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I worked in the triathlon wetsuit business for a number of years. I agree with everything you said here. It all comes down to fit - and that right/perfect fit is probably going to be more uncomfortable to the average triathlete.

In the wetsuit business, most triathletes, left up to their own devices tend to buy a wetsuit that is too big for them or ill-fitting in some way, because they are looking for ultimate comfort. Comfort, is important, and not to be thrown out completely, but it it needs to be balanced with performance.

If you want to see the extreme of this in the bad way, just stand on the side of the road at about the 70 mile mark of the bike, of any big Ironman and watch the back half of the race ride by. You'll see hundreds of people who've spent a considerable amount of money on an full on aero TT/tri bike and they are riding it for lengthy periods ( or almost exclusively), sitting up right and riding it like they would ride a road bike!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
tessartype wrote:
So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?


Yep, painted on.

Funny you mention Champ Sys. Of course, many know the Apex was born out of our testing with Luke McKenzie last year, and it's a good suit...if it fits. However, I suspected another piece of kit they make would be even an better tri suit, and our testing of that piece has proven that to be correct. Now the fact that this piece tests faster is no big surprise. The surprising thing is, and I admit I never saw this coming, this particular suit, while tighter fitting, is actually far more comfortable than the Apex! Every single athlete, and I mean every one, puts it on and, despite not being a tri-specific piece of clothing, they boldly claim they want to use the suit due to its comfort and range of motion. I can't say much more than that, but don't be surprised to see a new suit announced very soon in time for next season. My guess is that suit will be right up there with the best of them.

As far as the front vs rear zip. Both our testing and Specialized's has shown that the rear zip "tails" are aero neutral, and I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to slip on a rear zip suit coming out of the water.

Short or long-sleeved Speedsuit?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


Tell me more :-)

(P.S. Some skinsuit manufacturers will do "split sizing", e.g. small cut top, medium cut bottom...aka "Tyrannosaurus Rex Cut" ;-)...on custom team kits. I know Voler does this, for example).

(Please note the below is not typed in a mean-spirited way - don't want it to come off as nasty)

Oh no...I'm done giving away free advice. Discovering a possible new suit for Champ-Sys (posted above) is the last free thing I'm going to do. I think many would be very surprised at how little money we've (ERO & Alphamantis) been paid for our ideas. Mostly, and this is on me not the manufacturers, we've simply given the ideas away and not seen one dime from our work.

Honestly, Tom, the past few weeks I've needed to evaluate what I should be doing with all the knowledge I've gained over the past 18 months. Should I hire myself out for consulting to whomever needs it? Should I just pick one manufacturer and work with them? Or should I simply do what many have approached me to do - build an ERO line of clothing custom made to each athlete! :-)

Split sizing is okay but, seriously, there's a way to do it that will put a manufacturer so far out in front of everyone else it will make it difficult for anyone to match. And, it's not born out of some new, expensive, technology, it's easy. Would it be as cheap as the suits now? No, but it wouldn't approach the $1800 you pay to Bioracer for one of their suits either. It's there for the taking - someone just needs to step up.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Have you been able to notice the performance difference by where the wrinkles are located?

For instance - I just ordered the T1 Stealth. my chest/ arm sizing points me to a large (actually between L & XL), but my waist is more of a medium. (Damn swimmer's build). Are wrinkles on the more exposed areas, arms, upper back and chest more detrimental than wrinkles near the waist or vice versa?

Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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TeamBarenaked wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


This reminds of the time John Cobb and I were giving a presentation to a tri club. John is very funny in front of a group if you've never had the chance to hear him speak. He was talking about clothing for women, and specifically about the low-cut tri tops women use. I believe he said something like, "Now you know these low cut tri tops you ladies like to use that tend to let us boys get a good visual while you're in aero? Well, they're good for me, but bad for you!"

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [urbantriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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urbantriathlete wrote:
Have you been able to notice the performance difference by where the wrinkles are located?

For instance - I just ordered the T1 Stealth. my chest/ arm sizing points me to a large (actually between L & XL), but my waist is more of a medium. (Damn swimmer's build). Are wrinkles on the more exposed areas, arms, upper back and chest more detrimental than wrinkles near the waist or vice versa?

It's always first and foremost about what you're presenting to the wind. Big arms and shoulders fill these suits out better, and so tend to provide greater aero benefit. Since big arms and shoulders are a significant detriment to CdA, that's a nice win. On the other hand, you don't want that thing flapping around in the wind behind you either. That's an easy fix, though...a good seamstress could take it in around the waist without effecting the suits range of motion in the arms and shoulders.

By the way, the original T1 Stealth was good, but the 2015 suit has been changed a bit, and it's REALLY good! Not sure if it's available yet. They provided some for testing a few clients last month.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. From this link http://lavamagazine.com/...elli-rotor-for-2015/

My 2014 T1 Stealth looks exactly the same. It's a full zip as well. I'm curious as to what they apparently changed

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Pattern and material placement. We tested on two athletes, both of whom wear a medium. One is significantly taller and thinner than the other, and for him it simply didn't test as well. It wasn't bad, just not as good as it was for the shorter, but more muscular athlete. Again - fit is most important.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - it's great to hear. I ordered the full zip product on their website, not sure if that's 2015 or 2014.

Also - any chance you have plans to open an East Coast branch for testing? There's a big market in the northeast that can't easily make it to a wind tunnel!

Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Same here, my T1 Stealth (purchased from wiggle in August of 2014) appears identical from the front at least.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [urbantriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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urbantriathlete wrote:
Thanks - it's great to hear. I ordered the full zip product on their website, not sure if that's 2015 or 2014.

Also - any chance you have plans to open an East Coast branch for testing? There's a big market in the northeast that can't easily make it to a wind tunnel!

Pretty sure Alphamantis will have something set up at the new velodrome in Milton (outside of Toronto) when it opens sometime around January.

If the velodrome in Pittsburgh gets built, my guess is you'll see it there, too, but not from ERO. I'm too busy as is - having the morning off to post on here has been fun, but doesn't happen too often.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I wore the Castelli T1 and really liked it. Wore it in 2 other races as well. The difference in Kona is that you need to put it on AFTER you swim which presents some problems with your body being wet and trying to put on a fabric that stretches. It took a few miles on the Queen K to dry out and for me to adjust it. The other 2 races I did in it allowed me to wear it under my wetsuit...much more ideal.

Any suggestions on how to get them on quicker, and better, in T1? Anyone?

Great post by the way.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
Any suggestions on how to get them on quicker, and better, in T1? Anyone?
At Masters swim meets they sometimes have at the end of the day a wet t-shirt relay where each team of four has to share one t-shirt, removing it from one person to the next. From my observations (never participated), the best way to put it on is from inside out, hands through first and then peel it down over your head and body. So I might suggest you wet the shirt and place it in a ziplock bag in your T1 bag. Probably best to have a helper.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Good:




Not so good:


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [LOW2000] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know if this is a very good comparison. One rider is on the base bar and the other (Cav) is in the aero position. Based on that, the guy in white, though maybe less wrinkles, is FAR less aero than Cav with a few wrinkles. I guess I am wondering where, if any, wrinkles will appear when the guy gets into his aero position.

Cool pics though.
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