TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN

Mar 4, 09 9:13

Post #1 of 112 (15568 views)

As coach I'm always asked by Ironman athletes what they should aim for as a pace on the run on race day. If you understand Ironman you know there are many factors; nutrition, pacing both in the swim and on the bike just to name a few. However about four years ago I started to notice that a well known run test looking at aerobic fitness was a great guide for Ironman pacing. Many of you may already use this but I decided to follow athletes over the last four years I coached or knew personally to see the results.

TEST: The HR formula (180-your age +5).
HOW: You are allowed to run up to but NEVER over that number.
When: Off the bike after a long ride (over 4hrs).
How far: 5km flat (track)
At the end calculate your pace.
Results: That pace is what you should use as your UPPER end pace for race day (dream pace).

Results on race day from the 96 athletes I tested (tested 3 weeks before their races).

Not one athlete beat their test pace. (test paces ranged from 3:40/km (Jasper Blake) to the slowest was 8:00/km)
49 athletes ran within 10sec/km of their test pace
22 athletes ran within 15sec/km of their test pace
When interviewing many of those who did not reach their goal pace on race day it was concluded that nutrition or pacing on the bike was at least a strong factor. That run fitness was not a factor.
Of course for a hand full we knew it was run fitness when review logs and training going into the race
12 athletes when into the race with some kind of injury that became a factor on the run

Conclusion

Use this formula and maybe add 10-15sec/km and you have a good goal pace.
Most people think they can run way faster then there true fitness (many of these athletes wanted to run much faster or thought they could run faster)

Just thought is was an interesting finding. What do you use as a predictor?

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Last edited by: HR: Feb 25, 10 8:38

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 9:25

Post #2 of 112 (15535 views)

I constantly amaze myself with how fast I think I am (will run in a race). But for me it is usually a folly of too fast too early. And thinking I will be able to do something on race day I wasn't able to do during training.
Yes I am delusional most days. :)
Mark

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 9:32

Post #3 of 112 (15504 views)

TEST: The formula (180-your age +5).

Excuse my slowness, but you are referring to heart rate, yes?

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 9:35

Post #4 of 112 (15494 views)

YES

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 9:54

Post #5 of 112 (15446 views)

The concept of a predictor for IM run pacing is great and would be very useful information. I have a hard time looking past the incredibly generic "180-Age+5" formula, though. It may work for many, but with any formula based on a fixed number rather than a personal benchmark, there are going to be a large number of people that are going to be way off.

Max HR forumlas are a perfect example. The "best" HR formula according to a 2002 study of 43 of them is 205.8 - (0.685 x Age). That would come out to a max of 178.4 for me. Hell, that's a couple of beats below my average HR for a well-paced 10k race. Likewise, I can't imagine that following the given test protocol and running at a HR of 139 is going to give an accurate prediction of my IM run pace.

Where did the 180 number come from?

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 10:37

Post #6 of 112 (15334 views)

OK, I'm intrigued....

What kind of run courses were the athletes participating on? Was the terrain flat/hilly? Did the terrain of the course contribute to the varying results?

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 10:45

Post #7 of 112 (15300 views)

I totally agree. I hate formula for predictors but they are great for controlling benchmarks. I found this interesting finding as I use this formula as a benchmark for Aerobic Threshold on the recovery week each cycle. I do the test as described above. It is a great test for seeing aerobic fitness improvement and is by no means stressful. For me I've seen a massive improvement by using this test. (in November 08 I was running at a 4:40/km pace using this formula and last week I ran at 4:05/km pace). It is not important whether the formula is exact but that it forces you to be running below your balance point and that it controls you to keep testing consistent. Now for how I made that improvement that is whole other post.

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 10:49

Post #8 of 112 (15274 views)

Rich,

Have you been able to track someone over a number of years using just pace instead of HR?
Mark

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [sandiegopj] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 11:02

Post #9 of 112 (15237 views)

In Reply To:

OK, I'm intrigued....

What kind of run courses were the athletes participating on? Was the terrain flat/hilly? Did the terrain of the course contribute to the varying results?

Most important when testing on the run is to keep the testing course the SAME. You also have to take into consideration temperature and wind. I think for consistency that flatter is better as it is the Avg pace you are looking. I use a track.

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 11:28

Post #10 of 112 (15184 views)

Thanks, I only ask b/c my primary races this year are Wildflower 1/2 and Silverman Full. Curious as to how good of a predictor it will be with such hilly courses on the schedule.

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 11:33

Post #11 of 112 (15157 views)

How is different than a MAF test done after a long bike? Doesn't seem very different other than the bike and then applying the pace to IM versus say a 5K

http://www.fexycoaching.com

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Kensho

Mar 4, 09 11:38

Post #12 of 112 (15145 views)

A couple thoughts:

HR formulas are bunk.

"Fitness" is specific.

Nobody blames their swim for a poor IM run.

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Kensho] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 12:08

Post #13 of 112 (15088 views)

In Reply To:

A couple thoughts:

HR formulas are bunk.

"Fitness" is specific.

Nobody blames their swim for a poor IM run.

Missing the point - the formula is just a control not the predictor
Yes and your point is....? All the formula is saying is that this is the UPPER end.
I blame poor IM's on peoples swim all the time. People don't respect the fatigue a 2.4mile swim creates. If you over do the swim then you pay for it on the bike and it shows up on the run.

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Kensho] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 12:36

Post #14 of 112 (15005 views)

Hopefully this won't spawn too much OT from a potentially interesting thread, but: I always find running tougher the day after a big swim, not to mention in the context of a triathlon of any length; and I'm sure I'm not unique in this.
More on the topic: while I think that heart rate prediction formulae are rarely apt for habitual endurance athletes, the OP's suggestion of of 180-age+5, borne out by it's use in a decent-sized sample, seems reasonable for most, since many people so often overestimate their capabilities anyway. j

"I'm going to stick to my sardines" - Cassidy
"Others took their lemons and stood up and walked." - Kestrelkerri
"I will never know quite why I set out on the run. I guess because it was next." - Nachocheese
"No, just to people on the Forum. My athletes are the control group." - Paulo Sousa
" Actually, I am naturally an Asshole....not unlike the way you are naturally an idiot." IRONLOBO

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 12:46

Post #15 of 112 (14969 views)

I think for most your formula would work - at least its close for me.....might fall off if you are 20 or 50+. HR's do vary a lot also - wouldn't work at all for a frined of mine whose HR's run very low.

I use:

Daniel's E-pace = ideal/max pace. I think very few ever can average E pace for an IM. You need to use a half marathon or marathon to get your v-dot. People who run minimal miles and hammer 5K/10K's well will over-estimate their long distance v-dot.

Martinez's tables (do a search) based on Daniels work very well to - they end up being slower than E-pace and were right on for my last half IM and IM where I ran well but not great.

Dav

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Kensho

Mar 4, 09 13:49

Post #16 of 112 (14871 views)

1. It's not much of a control. Since the HR target gives a vastly different effort level among athletes.

2. A 5k run at an poorly conceived (see point 1) and arbritrary HR is a weak indicator of ability to run 42km at that pace. If one of your subjects was a highly trained 5k runner (let's say 15:30), but failed to do the "specific" run training for IM... he'd be knocking out 3:30/km's with ease... even after a 4 hour bike.

3. I just threw this out there because I know a lot of trash-talking dudes who train like mad on the bike/run, yet tell me "swim is just the warmup" and barely know what it's like to get wet. If you're not fit to swim 2.4km.. it's going to come back to bite you later.

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 14:36

Post #17 of 112 (14804 views)

Any recommendations for someone like me? I'm 38 with a max HR of about 195. I know it sounds crazy,but my comfort zone is between 165-175 bpm. I have been told that I just have a higher than average HR even though resting is somewhere around 50 bpm. Anyway, how should I plug that in the formula, just use my max instead of 180?

Remember, one man's ceiling is another man's floor.

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 14:47

Post #18 of 112 (14775 views)

If you throw out that ridiculous HR formula, and replace it with something more 21st century(like some % or their real max, Anaerobic threshold, Lactate threshold, ect), then you would have some interesting stats. The fact that you used it, and seem to argue with others about its validity, just shows most of us that you need to tighten up your study a bit. But after that, please come back and give us the results, it is an interesting study, and even better that you have a nice large sampling.....

Last edited by: monty: Mar 4, 09 14:49

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 20:58

Post #19 of 112 (14564 views)

OK, so the test course was always a flat track. What were the courses the athletes raced on? How did the flat testing translate to hilly races?

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 4, 09 23:47

Post #20 of 112 (14499 views)

1. Most of Rich's athletes race either Lake Placid or Canada, you know, the flat races:)

2. Many of you complaining about the HR formula are missing Rich's point that it's an arbitrary benchmark and he knows that. It's being used as a setpoint for testing fitness when done every cycle(block) of training and likely the reason that it's a fairly good predictor is that by the time an athlete is 3 weeks out from an IM, they've done this test at least 4 times already even if not necessarily off the bike. The athlete learns how to run the test and probably learns a bit about pacing too.

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

justatest

Mar 5, 09 4:00

Post #21 of 112 (14437 views)

In Reply To:

TEST: The HR formula (180-your age +5).

This is an interesting way of writing 185 - your age ;)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Kensho] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 09 4:30

Post #22 of 112 (14410 views)

In Reply To:

1. It's not much of a control. Since the HR target gives a vastly different effort level among athletes.

2. A 5k run at an poorly conceived (see point 1) and arbritrary HR is a weak indicator of ability to run 42km at that pace. If one of your subjects was a highly trained 5k runner (let's say 15:30), but failed to do the "specific" run training for IM... he'd be knocking out 3:30/km's with ease... even after a 4 hour bike.

1. So as I said at the beginning it is not important that the formula is the same for everyone but rather the formula was the same each time for the athlete. This test was not designed to predict IM pace I just started noticing that peoples times where very close when they had a great race. Before more of you get all jump all over me why not try it.

2. I idea to some degree except if you do the test your pace for the test will be slower more then likely then your Long run pace. What I like about the formula is it opens peoples eyes to what will more then likely happen and then is that they will run slower then they wish. But to your point Jasper was running 15:20 for km / 1:13:0 for 1/2M and he ran 2:48:00 (4:00/km)pace to win IMC in 07.

Again it is the finding that I thought was interesting

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [sandiegopj] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 09 4:32

Post #23 of 112 (14407 views)

What were the courses the athletes raced on?

IMLP
IMC

Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 09 5:26

Post #24 of 112 (14364 views)

I have done 4 IM. At age 69 my goal max HR is 120. Glad to hear there is some support for that number

Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR] [ In reply to ]

Mar 5, 09 7:18

Post #25 of 112 (14285 views)

Becoming more and more interested in this. Gonna talk to my coach about adding it and get her thoughts.

__________________________
Paul
AmateurEndurance.com

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