Thanks for the IM run training tip. I am anxious to use it
David
H & A Racing
David
H & A Racing
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Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [pmccrann]
[ In reply to ]
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
yes, all the old timers and professionals know exactly what they're talking about and never make sub-optimal equipment choices or racing decisions.
This is the fallacy of "authority" and is a "dirty" way to win an argument.
Better would be to address the points I made rather than say that I'm not one of the ST Illuminati right?
Eric,
Hello!
Perhaps I should not have gone into so much detail and come right out and said that I agree with you. Did you read my posts?
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
This is the fallacy of "authority" and is a "dirty" way to win an argument.
Better would be to address the points I made rather than say that I'm not one of the ST Illuminati right?
Eric,
Hello!
Perhaps I should not have gone into so much detail and come right out and said that I agree with you. Did you read my posts?
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
I know you're so much smarter than everyone else on this forum and have everything figured out, but read the guy's original post, that's not what he's saying.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Fleck]
[ In reply to ]
Whoops! Not enough sleep lately I guess.
bashfully,
Eric
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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bashfully,
Eric
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Fleck]
[ In reply to ]
IMO "running well" at IM is more a function of your bike pacing and knowing how to keep yourself in check over the first ~6 miles of the marathon...not so much running ability. I guess we're talking more about running to your potential, regardless of what that is. I'd say 95% of AG athletes fail to meet their potential on run course due to execution errors. Unfortunately, there are some really fast guys in my AG (M35-39). I laid down the 3rd best run split in the AG and 25th OA at IMCdA this year but that only got me 19th in my AG. FYI - it was 3:14, not 3:16. Admittedly, I underperformed on the bike which cost me 10-15min probably.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [TH3_FRB]
[ In reply to ]
IMO "running well" at IM is more a function of your bike pacing and knowing how to keep yourself in check over the first ~6 miles of the marathon...not so much running ability. I guess we're talking more about running to your potential, regardless of what that is. I'd say 95% of AG athletes fail to meet their potential on run course due to execution errors. Unfortunately, there are some really fast guys in my AG (M35-39). I laid down the 3rd best run split in the AG and 25th OA at IMCdA this year but that only got me 19th in my AG. FYI - it was 3:14, not 3:16. Admittedly, I underperformed on the bike which cost me 10-15min probably.
That was not a wasted exercise. You have now found that tipping point on the bike where you know you can run really well off the bike. Any run split under 3:20 is going to really vault you up in the standings. I am guessing that you passed a massive number of people on the run and in your AG. What you need to do now is figure out how to cycle faster, but keep the run sub 3:20. Then you will truly nail it.
Best wishes.
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
That was not a wasted exercise. You have now found that tipping point on the bike where you know you can run really well off the bike. Any run split under 3:20 is going to really vault you up in the standings. I am guessing that you passed a massive number of people on the run and in your AG. What you need to do now is figure out how to cycle faster, but keep the run sub 3:20. Then you will truly nail it.
Best wishes.
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [pmccrann]
[ In reply to ]
Pat, love your stuff with bike pacing, TSS, and encouraging your athletes to get fast early and often with biking and running.
I would encourge you however to continue to flesh out your run pacing execution strategy. In an exchange I had with Rich on Facebook he said that the goal of the IM run is to not slow down. While I agree this is important, I believe it encourages your athletes to set their goals low and achieve them on race day. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Not slowing down is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
In like with your highly specific bike pacing strategy, which is based on objective measures like FTP, TSS, etc. I think your run pacing should stragegies should be the same. Goal run pace should be based on a predicted open marathon time (based on an acutal Open 5k time) with a number factored in, such as (eg.) predicted open marathon time plus 20 minutes. Then, add in your EN mojo... the WAY you achieve this goal is by negative splitting in the usual EN fashion.
Better still would be to run at a certain % of open 5k pace, much like biking at a certain % of FTP on the IM bike leg.
In the end, you are asking your body to produce a certain power number for ten hours... this should be based ultimately on your body's one hour FTP and extrapolated out. I believe this perspective STILL emphasizes the importance of properly pacing the bike... over bike and you under run... your body can only produce so much power for so long.
I know this will have alot of your athletes missing their goals, but at least they aimed high and missed rather than aimed for mediocrity and hit it squarely on the nose. Not slowing down is not a SMART goal to shoot for.
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
I would encourge you however to continue to flesh out your run pacing execution strategy. In an exchange I had with Rich on Facebook he said that the goal of the IM run is to not slow down. While I agree this is important, I believe it encourages your athletes to set their goals low and achieve them on race day. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Not slowing down is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
In like with your highly specific bike pacing strategy, which is based on objective measures like FTP, TSS, etc. I think your run pacing should stragegies should be the same. Goal run pace should be based on a predicted open marathon time (based on an acutal Open 5k time) with a number factored in, such as (eg.) predicted open marathon time plus 20 minutes. Then, add in your EN mojo... the WAY you achieve this goal is by negative splitting in the usual EN fashion.
Better still would be to run at a certain % of open 5k pace, much like biking at a certain % of FTP on the IM bike leg.
In the end, you are asking your body to produce a certain power number for ten hours... this should be based ultimately on your body's one hour FTP and extrapolated out. I believe this perspective STILL emphasizes the importance of properly pacing the bike... over bike and you under run... your body can only produce so much power for so long.
I know this will have alot of your athletes missing their goals, but at least they aimed high and missed rather than aimed for mediocrity and hit it squarely on the nose. Not slowing down is not a SMART goal to shoot for.
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [Fleck]
[ In reply to ]
Oh, I know how to cycle faster :) I was intentionally throttling back on the bike based on my time splits and knowing what bike split I should ride. Turns out leaving the magnet off my rear wheel caused my computer to "pause" every time I coasted (either cadence or speed would have kept it ticking) so I was gradually missing accumulated time on the course and thought I was good. I didn't figure it out till later after I finished when I assumed the official results had my bike split boogered. I had it at 5:25is but it was actually 5:38. I didn't NEED to ride that slow to run that well. I rode 5:03 at IMFL and ran 3:21 but I blew it in the first 3-5 miles of the marathon and ended up logging a bunch of 8:xx splits in the last third because I was toast. 2 learning experiences so far...third time is a charm at IMAZ this year.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks for the thoughtful reply and yes, we can absolutely get more specific with the run guidance. That said, we do tell people what pace to run at specifically, on IM race day, and add that they shouldn't slow down (IOW, "Don't slow down." isn't the only thing we give them.). They have a run IF chart they can use, and it's color coded like our Bike TSS Chart so they can modify based on actual bike performance relative to planned effort (i.e. I was going to shoot for 260TSS but hit 275, now what to do with my run?).
What we tell everyone else, when we see them <36 hours to the race at our free Four Keys talk is "don't slow down" (and a few other things).
Hope that helps!
Patrick
+++++++++
Patrick McCrann
Endurance Nation Camps
What we tell everyone else, when we see them <36 hours to the race at our free Four Keys talk is "don't slow down" (and a few other things).
Hope that helps!
Patrick
+++++++++
Patrick McCrann
Endurance Nation Camps
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
Eric, I like what you are saying, however, I think you'd be better off with "running at x% of open 10K pace vs 5K pace". You can kind of fake the 5K. Anyway, if you are a 40 min 10K runner, 120% of the pace (or 83% effort) would be 5 min per k or 3:30 marathon split. For a 33 minute 10K runner, it would be 4 min per K, but the guys running 2:48 at IM are likely closer to 32 minute runners. For a 45 min 10K runner, 5:24 per K.
I think running 120% slower (or 83% effort) is largely unrealistic.
I'd guess that the number is closer to 75-80% effort assuming well trained for the run and good bike pacing. This is actually higher than the 70% FTP effort as recommended on the bike. 70% effort on the run would be too low as the 40 minute 10K runner, would be taking the marathon out at almost 60 minute 10K pace
I think running 120% slower (or 83% effort) is largely unrealistic.
I'd guess that the number is closer to 75-80% effort assuming well trained for the run and good bike pacing. This is actually higher than the 70% FTP effort as recommended on the bike. 70% effort on the run would be too low as the 40 minute 10K runner, would be taking the marathon out at almost 60 minute 10K pace
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR]
[ In reply to ]
This thread is a pretty decent microcosm of all that is right and wrong with ST. Great stuff, liberally interspersed with people acting like complete dicks. Not unlike life, I suppose.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Dev you make a great point re: faking a 5k... I guess this is true.
But, the reason I like 5k is that is shows your *potential* to run long, not your actual ability, and I think your IM run split is much more based on potential. This talks to the issue of athletes who go out and do a marathon in prep for an Ironman just to "check" to see that they can do it. As we all pretty much agree, this is the worst training you can do for an IM. Here's why:
Bike pacing and effect on IM run
Bike nutrition and effect on IM run
overall weekly run volume and effect on IM run
weekly long run and it's lack of effect on IM run
as I said before, you're IM run "power" is based on your FTP, which is an artificial and arbitrary number for a certain length of time. I'm saying that your 5k time is the "FTP" that your IM run is a function of. Think about it... how embarassingly SLOW is 8 minute miles? That's horrible, yet if you split 3:30 off a 5:15 bike you're a stud. See what I mean? Do you really think slogging along at 8 min miles had anything to do with a 10k time? Really, it had to do with your 10 hour power, or CP 10h if you prefer. your 10 hour power is probably, for the trained athlete, 95% of 5 hour power, which is 95% of 2.5 hour power, which is 95% of 1.25 hour power, which is 95% of you get the idea.
So, if that were true, do you want to spend all of your time noodling around in training at your CURRENT 10 hour power or less, or do you want to invest your training time now to increase your FTP power levels to go faster later on race day?
If your 5k time is slow, or your 20 minute bike power is slow, don't expect to go at 85% of FTP on race day for an IM and expect to be able to run after. If you spend all of your run time running at "IM pace", effectively de-training yourself and lowering your run FTP, don't expect to be able to continue to hold 225 watts after the bike deep in to the marathon leg.
So, in the end 5k is ability, 10k is did you do the work, but really it's easily predicted, if you did to the work, from your open 5k time, and vice versa. I'm going under the assumption, that for me, I am going to do the work and therefore I'll start my race day execution planning from the open 5k baseline, not how slow did I run on my 4 hour long runs.
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
But, the reason I like 5k is that is shows your *potential* to run long, not your actual ability, and I think your IM run split is much more based on potential. This talks to the issue of athletes who go out and do a marathon in prep for an Ironman just to "check" to see that they can do it. As we all pretty much agree, this is the worst training you can do for an IM. Here's why:
Bike pacing and effect on IM run
Bike nutrition and effect on IM run
overall weekly run volume and effect on IM run
weekly long run and it's lack of effect on IM run
as I said before, you're IM run "power" is based on your FTP, which is an artificial and arbitrary number for a certain length of time. I'm saying that your 5k time is the "FTP" that your IM run is a function of. Think about it... how embarassingly SLOW is 8 minute miles? That's horrible, yet if you split 3:30 off a 5:15 bike you're a stud. See what I mean? Do you really think slogging along at 8 min miles had anything to do with a 10k time? Really, it had to do with your 10 hour power, or CP 10h if you prefer. your 10 hour power is probably, for the trained athlete, 95% of 5 hour power, which is 95% of 2.5 hour power, which is 95% of 1.25 hour power, which is 95% of you get the idea.
So, if that were true, do you want to spend all of your time noodling around in training at your CURRENT 10 hour power or less, or do you want to invest your training time now to increase your FTP power levels to go faster later on race day?
If your 5k time is slow, or your 20 minute bike power is slow, don't expect to go at 85% of FTP on race day for an IM and expect to be able to run after. If you spend all of your run time running at "IM pace", effectively de-training yourself and lowering your run FTP, don't expect to be able to continue to hold 225 watts after the bike deep in to the marathon leg.
So, in the end 5k is ability, 10k is did you do the work, but really it's easily predicted, if you did to the work, from your open 5k time, and vice versa. I'm going under the assumption, that for me, I am going to do the work and therefore I'll start my race day execution planning from the open 5k baseline, not how slow did I run on my 4 hour long runs.
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
Good grief...lighten up and don't be such a jerk!
All the OP did was post what he has found to be a "predictor" of IM performance on race day, and he has some evidence to back up that it can be accurate with some folks. Thats all his post was about - folks like you are reading into things and trying to turn it into a bash fest on him. He didn't say it applied to you or anyone else - only that he has used it as a predictor and has found it to be useful knowledge for some folks, and threw it out there for others to try if they choose! He didn't say it was a "be all, end all".
I would argue that your statement that "those who run the fastest long also run the fastest short" doesn't apply across the board - just as you assume the OP's theory does not!
All the OP did was post what he has found to be a "predictor" of IM performance on race day, and he has some evidence to back up that it can be accurate with some folks. Thats all his post was about - folks like you are reading into things and trying to turn it into a bash fest on him. He didn't say it applied to you or anyone else - only that he has used it as a predictor and has found it to be useful knowledge for some folks, and threw it out there for others to try if they choose! He didn't say it was a "be all, end all".
I would argue that your statement that "those who run the fastest long also run the fastest short" doesn't apply across the board - just as you assume the OP's theory does not!
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [EricinSC]
[ In reply to ]
why would you waste an hour of training "predicting" performance instead of improving ability for when it comes time to in fact perform? If you knew you were going to run a 3:49:32 what difference would that make? What would knowing that information do for your decision making?
and I DO think it applies across the board. It's not absolute, and is dependent on bike pacing and nutrition, but running fast is a skill, and running long fast is a function of that. Crowie, Raelert, Macca... all fast short course guys. Potts... no IM training and runs 2:50 low in first try, came from an ITU background. If you take all of the sub 3:00 runs in the last 10 years at IM and cross reference them to open 5k run time I'll bet you'll find that they are HIGHLY correlated together. Not to number of 30+ hour training weeks, not to number of 4+ hour long runs.
Furthermore, I'm not being a jerk, simply stating that an arbitrary and highly personal, variable, and unreliable metric like HR is way inferior to using objective metrics like bike FTP and run FTP, training to improve those, and THEN once you can understand and visualize what they mean, plan out your race day exectution.
Finally, this is a discussion board. You're right, he threw it out there for discussion. Would you prefer that I just say "attaboy" to the OP, great post, or maybe add something to the discussion? Perhaps an alternate viewpoint with some supporting points and comparisons to the original viewpoint?
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
and I DO think it applies across the board. It's not absolute, and is dependent on bike pacing and nutrition, but running fast is a skill, and running long fast is a function of that. Crowie, Raelert, Macca... all fast short course guys. Potts... no IM training and runs 2:50 low in first try, came from an ITU background. If you take all of the sub 3:00 runs in the last 10 years at IM and cross reference them to open 5k run time I'll bet you'll find that they are HIGHLY correlated together. Not to number of 30+ hour training weeks, not to number of 4+ hour long runs.
Furthermore, I'm not being a jerk, simply stating that an arbitrary and highly personal, variable, and unreliable metric like HR is way inferior to using objective metrics like bike FTP and run FTP, training to improve those, and THEN once you can understand and visualize what they mean, plan out your race day exectution.
Finally, this is a discussion board. You're right, he threw it out there for discussion. Would you prefer that I just say "attaboy" to the OP, great post, or maybe add something to the discussion? Perhaps an alternate viewpoint with some supporting points and comparisons to the original viewpoint?
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks for posting this, I find it to be very useful. I am one of those average people who this will probably apply to.
Again thanks for sharing the information, I find this to valuable to someone who is going to train for an IM.
Again thanks for sharing the information, I find this to valuable to someone who is going to train for an IM.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
I don't think you can compare the pro's with us age groupers in general. Sure, it makes sense that if you're a fast runner, then -period- youre a fast runner no matter the distance. However, I don't think it applies to everyone across the board, in particular the age group crowd. I see it within the group I'm around race after race. The fastest short course runner is not the fastest long course runner. Perhaps thats a training issue, performance issue, etc...but still - it doesn't apply across the board!
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
Since you were kind enough to ask, I guess I'd prefer that you add something to the discussion (which you've obviously demonstrated you're capable of doing) with a modicum of respect - or, that failing, just don't be a jerk.
Just curious, is this how you interact with people in person? If so, my scientific formula predicts you don't get invited over for dinner much.
Just curious, is this how you interact with people in person? If so, my scientific formula predicts you don't get invited over for dinner much.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [charris]
[ In reply to ]
Actually, I think you guys are reading too much into Eric's text. I'm reading a completely intonation into it because I have met him multiple times in person.
The first time, I was on business in Seoul in 2, and he came over to my hotel, equipped me with a road bike and took me out for a ride. I took him to dinner :-). We hung around together quite a bit last Nov in Clearwater and had a blast. I don't know what you guys are reading, but the text is being interpreted a different way by some vs how I am reading it. Maybe I have had the benefit of having had almost this very same discussion with him in read life.
I think he's just saying that heart rate is not a great metric as it is affected by too many variables and if you use a percentage of threshold pace in both bike and run to arrive at your "CP 10 hours" then you likely have a better guideline.
The first time, I was on business in Seoul in 2, and he came over to my hotel, equipped me with a road bike and took me out for a ride. I took him to dinner :-). We hung around together quite a bit last Nov in Clearwater and had a blast. I don't know what you guys are reading, but the text is being interpreted a different way by some vs how I am reading it. Maybe I have had the benefit of having had almost this very same discussion with him in read life.
I think he's just saying that heart rate is not a great metric as it is affected by too many variables and if you use a percentage of threshold pace in both bike and run to arrive at your "CP 10 hours" then you likely have a better guideline.
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Truth
And get a Garmin!
And get a Garmin!
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
thanks Dev, and sorry to everyone else if I come off as a little crotchety or rude. Not getting much sleep these days.
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [ericM35-39]
[ In reply to ]
eric, 10k is a much better predictor of marathon performance then 5k. IMO, I'd go off of 10k performance first. probably provide a bit more accuracy.
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
Wow....Brian and I agreed on the same thing on the same day! They may as well shut down ST at this point :-)
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [HR]
[ In reply to ]
Rich,
Any thoughts on how this would apply to 70.3 pacing? Sorry if you covered this but I couldn't stand reading all the bull following your original post. Also, did racer experience have any effect on pacing?
Thanks
Any thoughts on how this would apply to 70.3 pacing? Sorry if you covered this but I couldn't stand reading all the bull following your original post. Also, did racer experience have any effect on pacing?
Thanks
Re: TEST YOUR IRONMAN RUN [desert dude]
[ In reply to ]
DD, 10k is a better predictor or open marathon time or IM run split?
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting
“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
I have not collected data on 70.3. An Elite age group/pro should be able to hold very close to there actual 1/2 M time. Look at athlete like Crowie who ran 1:11 on a very hilly course after a very hard 94km bike. His PB for 10k is only 32 I believe (you can all correct me if I'm wrong). But I'm thinking on a flat 1/2M solo run he would not run too much faster then a 1:07-1:09. For me I run a 1:16 PB currently for the 1/2M and last year I held 1:18 for my 1/2IM. Now before everyone jumps on me. Every course is going to be different and every athlete has the distance they are best at. I suck at the IM distance and I'm not fast either at the Olympic distance so the 70.3 distance rocks for me. The pro's I'm training right now also can run very close to the 1/2M stand alone times in a 70.3. Now if you are a MOP athlete it is going to be different. Muscular fatigue will be your biggest factor. So when muscular fatigue is a factor it is very hard to predict the pace you should hold. Your fatigue will be based on nutrition, pacing on the swim and bike and your mental state.
Not sure if that was much help!
Richard Pady
http://www.healthyresults.ca - http://www.race4kids.ca
Indoor Rider (weekly indoor riding videos)