Barry P., I just had to reply with sort of a different take....I'm completely new to training with any sort of "program." I used to just go out and do whatever, whenever I felt like it.

Which brings me to 2 weeks till my first marathon, religiously following a set program. And I feel very ready.....

I'm a very weak runner, with absolutely no track background whatsoever. When I slowed down on the long run, and continued ramping up mileage during the week, I couldn't believe the inadvertant gains. Inadvertant I say b/c it was all done UNintentionally. I slowed down more b/c I was fearful of crashing and burning during long mileage. When I'd finish and feel strong I was pleasantly surprised.

So speaking for someone who's not trying to get faster, slowing down does work. Once I let go of finishing at some arbitrary time, I found I made great gains.

There have been a few similar threads, but this one seemed the most appropriate to reply to.

Specifics, no real running background. Usually ran ~10MPW 50% of the year, just enough to get off the saddle, or during a quick lunch breaks. Decided (got goaded) into doing a 1/2 mary in November. Started training in Sept. Plan called for 4X week, 3-6 during the week and 6-12 long run on the WE (plan from marathonrookie.com). I had trouble recovering from the long run, but I also could never feel good about the 2 days in a row. Eventually, I dropped the short day of the week, and would generally have 3 strong runs ~4 , ~6 & ~10 (20-25MPW). BUT I was always sore for 1-2days afterwards.

I have taken your advice and have been trying this run everyday thing (or 6X). Generally its 6x3mi (maybe up to 5mi). The problem is that I haven't had a run where I felt "good" since the first one. Currently I'm in the 215# range, seldom drop below 200#, and did the 1/2 @210#, and it seems like its a struggle for recovery.

How long would you stick to this type of plan before you decide that it is doing more harm than good? I.e. hip/knee/lower back pain. How long should it take to see the adaptation take place. I was going to give it a month to determine if the nagging stuff went away, but is that not long enough?

Barry, I realize you posted this ~8 months ago, but thanks...I never saw the original post... now have >150 people on this "program"

Hey, I'm not sure if I wrote it hear, but I often refer people to you for the more...uh...."zen" way of saying pretty much the same thing.

It's the trial of miles, baby.

BTW, I'm wearing my splint right now. I gotta heal those feet!

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I don't typically hear of people having your issues. In the end you have to push square pegs into square holes and round ones into round holes. The entire goal of running 6 days a week is to get more mileage in. You may find in your case that you need to play around with your schedule until you find something that works. If it hurts you have to cut back.

At the collegiate level you'll find very few decent programs that don't train twice a week at least some of the time. We had to run Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday in the am. It's a great plan, but I'll be honest - morning runs just killed me. My body seems to just wake up really slow. Everything was stiff in the morning and my shins always hurt when I did the am runs. Despite the fact that I would recommend doubles for 95% of the competetive college runners, I don't think it was the right thing for me to do.

1st thing is to absolutely make sure your pace isn't too fast. You should be able to comfortably carry a conversation when you run. Your heart rate should be between 65-80% of your max. If that is under control and you still feel beat up, then you may want to cut back to 3 days a week and occasionaly attmempt that 4th day. Maybe even start off by running 3 days and then walking that 4th day...eventaully building up to a 1 mile run....then more, etc. I don't want to discourage you, but it may not be in the cards for you if that doesn't work.

Good luck.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

All I know is I ran a lot less in 07 compared to 06, and even the two years before that, and run a lot faster in 07.
Oh well, I love to be different and trying to save my legs.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think that I get that, but I am also not naive enough to think that week 1 or 2 on this type of plan would be easy or painless. Is it something that I should give a month before I make a decision, two months?

Obviously, if I thought that the pain was not something that I could work through I would have stopped already. The pain is really secondary. On the 3X, 4/6/9, I would usually run in the 9-9.5min/mile range for the 4&6 and the 9.5-10min/mile range on the 9. Now, in doing 6x3mi, I am in the 10.5-11min/mile range. So where I was slow, I now feel really slow. (Yes I can carry on a conversation)

How fast can you run in a race?

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

How long :)

I have only run 2 races. a 5K corporate race in ~25min, and a half-mary (it was 13.31) in 2:11, or 9:53 pace.

Did not really push in either (both were "fun" races run with friends).

I like to use the website to calculate training paces:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/...unningcalculator.htm

I'd prefer to use your 5K time since you don't train nearly enough to be "in shape" for a half mary. He has your doing your runs at anywhere from 9:50/mile - 11:20/mile. My experience has been that as your mileage and frequency goes up, your pace drops down. As long as you are running faster than 11:20 pace, you are "training." It may seem slow, but that's how fast you are.

It takes a little patience. Most people I talk to hate it at first, but after a month or two they start to see results and get used to the slower pace.

As far as how long it takes for the adaptation to take place, as I general rule I never expect to see results until I've done something for 6 weeks. I think there's actually some research to back this up, but that's just been my experience. There's improvement in between, but that's the point where I look back at my logs and say, "Wow..I have gotten faster."

Definitely take care not to get hurt. Stretch all the muscles around the areas that are sore. That would be lower back, upper back, quads, calves, glutes, and hamstrings. Strecth them before and after every run.

Hope it helps.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"THE ANSWER: Run slower. Run more often. Run more."

I think Dev Paul's 100 run challenge helped address this for me and I think it is helping but it is too early to tell.

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

How is your form? I remember when I started training for my first marathon several years ago. I was always sore, because my form was wrong. I was overstriding, landing on my heel with my foot way out in front. My leg would be almost straight causing the impact to be absorbed by my leg bones, knee and hip joints. The longer the distances I ran, the more sore I was, regardless of my pace. That all changed when I adopted a mid-foot style running form. This style utilizes the muscles to a much greater degree to absorb the impact resulting in significantly less pain and allowing me to run much longer distances.

Of course for you, your weight comes into play as well. The force of impact from a 215# person is much greater than from someone weighing 40-50 pounds less. It may take you much longer to adapt to the stresses and you may have to keep your runs on the short side until you do.

---

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

Lets say we anticipate a 4 mo build to get to 4 hrs/weekly of easy paced running. Any recommendations when or when not to enter a race? I'll have 3 hrs in this week of very easy running. I feel good, no residual, recovery is quick, but the thought of putting the hammer down for a 10k or 1/2 seems far off. This is a new approach for me and I'm a couple of months into it but I have no paradigmn for race readiness.

If you're one of those freaks who never gets injured, then you can race anytime you want. ; ^ ) For the rest of us, you can still race anytime you want but keep in mind that you need to hold yourself back to where you are only running 95%.

For 100% effort, I don't like to do any until you've done *some* running at all speeds. So lets say, for example, you want to be race ready by April 1st but wish to "peak" in the end of June. I think for *most* people (us mortals) 3 months is just way to long to hold any kind of peak fitness, so I like to keep the intensity down a bit until the last 4-6 weeks.

So lets say you've done lots of easy running in December, January, and Febuary. Again, you could always keep with the easy running and run this race at 95%, but if its kind of important to you I'd make sure I had at least 3 weeks of 20 minute tempo runs + some moderately hard workouts like 6-8x200 at ~mile race pace with 200 jogs or 4x800 @ ~5K race pace with 400 jogs. Mileage would have to be cut back a bit to handle the faster running. This, in my mind, would be geared toward a 5K. As the race gets longer, cut back more and more on the faster stuff and add more and more of the tempo training.

See my threads on balanced training and on periodization for a little more depth.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

[/reply]
If you're one of those freaks who never gets injured, then you can race anytime you want. ; ^ )
LOL you can't imagine how I am so not in that end of the gene pool! Thanks for the rest of your thoughts. All familiar and so not too difficult to measure readiness with the tempo and track training. I've heard anecdotes of folks on the Maffetone/Allen approach who show up on race day with little to no tempo and speed work and race pace is available in abundance. You seem to support doing some speed work in moderation. I'm in my 50's now and my body is telling me a training adjustment is needed if I want to stay in the game. The slow-easy approach has been enjoyable but the internal competitior wants to come out and play but the body is saying not yet! Which begs the question when/how to put races on the calendar. Enjoying the thread. Thanks

I'm not 50....and fear what's going to happen when I get there. I'm 34 and extremely injury prone. In 5 years of collegiate competetition, I was injured and not training for 33 out of 60 months.

I'm re-evaluating myself and my running "career" as well. I've got 3-4 more "peak" years before age really becomes a factor. I've just been side lined for 3 months with plantar fasciaitis. The fact is I *know* I'll be leaving something on the table if I don't train at 100%, but the reality is I'll be faster if I train at 85% and avoid injury. I'm coming to accept that.

Regarding injury prone-ness, a training partner of mine said that he saw recomendation on the lets run forum to focus more of your trainin on the tempo runs and less on all the other high intensity stuff.

As an additional thought, I talked to desert dude recently (who's a good running/tri coach) who suggested that the "rep training" (mile race pace stuff) be kept to 200 meter repeats instead of 400m. The reasoning is that that extra 200m really doesn't give you any added benefit yet add the potential to injury. After all, that second half is where you start to struggle.

Someone might come on here and disagree and point out all these great athletes who hammer 1/4s, but we have to keep in mind that one of the reasons they are so good is that they don't get injured as often as well as the fact that an extra 10 seconds for them in a 5K means the difference between going to the Olympics or watching it on TV. For you and me its the difference between a 15:40 or a 15:50 (or 21:00 and 21:10 for a 50 y.o. ; ^ ) which really doesn't mean anything. It's just not worth it.

Anyway, coming up to races, you could even do something as simple as one 20 minute tempo run a week and one mixed moderate fartlek run for 15-20 minutes with some hills. I think you just need something the stimulate your different energy systems so that its not a shock when you come off the starting line.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Barry, I know this is not the point but can you explain fartlek? just run hard whenever you feel like it and try to get it to add up to a certain amount? What is a workout you would recommend for the 200s. Say I am going to race a 1/2 marathon and want to do some intensity twice a week as I build up, maybe a 30-50 minute tempo and some mile repeats? or would you recommend the 200s instead?

Thanks for the advice!

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

---

http://www.aiatriathlon.com

"Fartlek" can really mean lots of thing. Technically in means "speed play." When I talk about it I mean mainly running a somewhat random series of pickups ranging anywhere from 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. When you do it in an unstructured fashion, you tend to hold back more than if you were to run on a track and try to hit X time per lap.

My collegiate coach would have more structured workouts where we'd run 3min hard, jog 2min and repeat several times. Some will call that a fartlek. What I desribed in the above post was intended more just to get a mix of different efforts once aweek or so.

I *ocassionally* run with Greg Watson (former Du World Champ) who does a lot of this type of training. His mantra is, "be consistent and vary your training." He's not real methodical, but he's fast. ; ^ )

If you look at my thread on balanced training you'll see what I recommend....or at least the idea behind it. You should so *some* faster training, like 200s, but they won't be as important as the mile repeats...and neither of those will be as important as the tempo runs....and that still won't be as important as months and months of high mileage.

For a half marathon I'd recommend simply doing 6x100 at a "significantly faster than 5K BUT definitely not sprinting" pace with full recoveries after each workout. That'll be plenty of speed. If you were training for a 5K, I'd recommend a lot more.

Also, pick up Pfitzinger's Road Racing for Serious Runners. It's a good, easy to read, straight to the point book with programs in the back. You'll see right in there what his recommendations are.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Tom, I'm even more conservative than Barry. He suggests seeing some adaptations in 6 weeks...I agree with that...after 6 weeks the frequency and mileage should feel easier...however, don't expect to see any real "performance gains with respect to speed" for 6 months, or even a year. I think by your "second round" of going through this, you'll see a leap in performance. As Fleck says, week over week, month over month, year of year...the good news is that you did have some "year over year" in the past...once you do it again, I think you'll see a big leap in 18 months, but even this summer things should be faster....I just think that summer of 2009 will be where you have a bigger gain.

This is what I see:

Phase 1: 100/100
Phase 2: then after that 3-4 months where you keep up frequency, add in long runs and hills/intervals/intensity
Phase 3: 2 months of 3-5 times week 10K sessions
Phase 4: another round of 100/100 this time a bit longer in each run and a bit faster
Phase 5: repeat phase 2, this time even faster!!!

I started running last spring, and limited my running to every other day, and focussed on building distance, then in latter summer and autum, did a lot of track interval workouts (probably one a week).

I dropped my 5k from 29:30 to 20:00, and my mile from 7:30 (not measured at start, but partway into summer) to 5:30.

Now I've dropped the interval workouts entirely and am focussed on building total weekly distance and doing long runs on weekends again.

I run substantially slower than the McMillan calculator times listed for even easy or long, and I'm ok with that. I don't know why I run much slower than his calculator, but, hey, oh well. I'm not young.

I really enojoyed this post and I have been using these principles over past 3-4months. I'm not saying this approach works for everyone but it has certainly worked very well for me.

I'm like you Barry. I'm very injury prone and have been consistently injured since 2004. It's only now since the last 3-4 mths that I have finally been able to put together some vey consitent running and still be injury free. It has been a complete overhaul though in terms of changing my philosphies on training.

Below are my results for three 8k run tests that I have done, spaced approximately 6 weeks apart. Never in my life did I ever contemplate getting my Aet pace (ie top of zone 1) down to the pace it is at now.


******Test Date: 17th October 2007
2km W/U
4km @ Aet, (av sp 5:05, av hr 144bpm)
1. 4:54, (141bpm)
2. 5:11, (145bpm)
3. 5:05, (146bpm)
4. 5:09, (146bpm)
4km @ Aet +10bpm (av sp 4:43, av hr 156bpm
5. 4:35, (155bpm)
6. 4:48, (157bpm)
7. 4:46, (157bpm)
8. 4:46, (156bpm)
******Test Date: 16th November 2007
2km W/U
4km @Aet (av sp 4:49min/k, av hr 143bpm). PB by 16seconds
1. 4:39 (137bpm)
2. 4:53 (145bpm)
3. 4:55 (145bpm)
4. 4:49 (146bpm)
4km @Aet +10bpm (av sp 4:25min/k, av hr 158bpm). PB by 18 seconds
1. 4:20 (156bpm)
2. 4:29 (159bpm)
3. 4:30 (158bpm)
4. 4:21 (159bpm)
******Test Date: 4th January 2008
2km W/U
4km @ Aet (av pace 4:32min/k, av hr 145bpm). PB by 17 seconds
1. 4:17, (143bpm)
2. 4:36, (146bpm)
3. 4:38, (146bpm)
4. 4:37, (146bpm)
4km @ Aet +10bpm (4:20min/k, av hr 157bpm). PB by 5 seconds
1. 4:18, (155bpm)
2. 4:25, (158bpm)
3. 4:22, (157bpm)
4. 4:15, (157bpm)


This is basically what I do between the 8k run tests in terms of training.
1. I focused mainly on frequency. I made every effort to try and run at least 5 times each week.
2. All my runs were in the 30-50minute range. I wanted to ensure that my form was good and would not break down as I became tired. I feel like I’m not ready yet to run up over an hour. I can still feel small changes in my running economy and efficiency when I start running beyond 40minutes. For that reason I was only doing maybe an extra 10minutes to extend myself.
3. I use the 9minute on and 1minite off run protocol. This means that no matter how good I feel. I will always walk 1minute after every 9minutes of running. This has really help with my recovery and it actually allows me to run a lot faster at lower HR’s. I can keep resetting myself and I feel fresh each time I start my new 9minute block. I feel lighter on my feet and I am able to hold my good running form for longer. Therefore, I’m not letting bad habits become part of my running routine.
4. I do all my runs on soft surfaces. This is hard in Tokyo but it has really help me stay in the game and keep those tired legs from becoming unnecessarily too tired and run down.
5. I stretch and ice after every run for at least 20mintues. I’ve had to do this to work around the foot problems I’m experiencing. I’ll also add that I have a lower body massage once PW.
6. I carry fluids with me on every run. I always run with a fuel belt now and make sure I’m drinking every 10-15minutes to try and give myself every chance not to break down. It’s good to train the body to handle good fatigue. Dehydration is bad fatigue.
7. Low HR running. I do about 80% of my weekly volume consists of running at around 130bpm. This is a good 10-15bpm below my Aet. I’ll do about 10% at and around my lower steady zone (ie 140-145bpm) and then I’ll do around 5-10% at my Max staeady state (150-155bpm). This is mostly in the form of strides and fartlek runs.
8. I’m not going to do any Intensity (ie tempo runs, intervals) until I hit a plateau. If I don’t ht a plateau I keep going with the protocol outlined above. Once I enter my specific preps for a race then you’ll start seeing my doing a lot of running between Aet and Aet +10bpm. This would mean long tempo runs and intervals runs in between 4:20-4:45min/k.
I hope that helps
Paul

BarryP

Thanks for the great advise. I have a question regarding my current approach. Right now I will do one medium (1hr -1.5hr) and one long (1.5-2.5hr) run per week. I also do 4 other runs (15min-1hr). However, these 4 runs are always part off the bike/bricks.

Do you see any problems with this?

Thanks,

Looks fine to me.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I'm in my 50's and I'm happier than I was any other decade before. Yes I'm slower and have to make sure I get more rest and recovery, but there is an overall confidence and satisfaction that comes with age. And I think you appreciate the little things a lot more. Don't be afraid...look forward to it!

---

Live long and surf!

"I started running last spring, and limited my running to every other day, and focussed on building distance, then in latter summer and autum, did a lot of track interval workouts (probably one a week).
I dropped my 5k from 29:30 to 20:00, and my mile from 7:30 (not measured at start, but partway into summer) to 5:30."

I don't know Barry, but I wish I'd have followed this guys training plan instead...
Dude starts running in the spring, and by mid-summer he rips off a 5:30 mile? I worked for 14 years to break 20min in a 5K. He did it in a few months. I need details!

Brad

---

3SIXTY5cycling.com