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Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix.
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Barf!!!! Was that an awful title or what? I sound like I'm writting for Runner's World......or maybe the local middle school paper.

.......and yes, I LOVE to hear myself talk (or read myself write!). Give me a break, I've ben locked in a "secure" environment for a month with no access to the internet most of the day.


THE ANSWER: Run slower. Run more often. Run more.

If you are rolling your eyes right now it's either because A) you get it and know you get it (and don't need to hear it yet again) or B) you don't get it and don't know you don't get it (and don't want th hear it agin)......; ^ ) However I've read a few responses on the board this year and got a few PMs from people who have had great success by adopting this training regime for their running. I'll lead off with a disclaimer and say that this may not be the answer that YOU are looking for (especially if you already are a strong runner), but it has helped a lot of struggling runners.


It seems to me that most triathletes don't come from a running background. Most runners who excell at running tend to stick with running as their are pleanty of opportunities to contiue to compete while maintaining a normal lifestyle. So it seems like a lot of folks either come to triathlon from a swimmers/cyclists background or just jumped in with both feet from no background. So, the introduction of running comes not as a single program that one can dedicate 100% of their time to, but as part of a larger program (triathlon) where the time must be shared.

That's the first issue. The second issue is coming into running with a familiarity of swimming/cycling. Physiologically the endurance sports are very similar, but I believe there is one major difference. Most people (*most*) can't get away with pounding through workouts the way they may have become accustomed to while swimming or cycling.

I've been learning this from the other side of the equation. After barely getting into shape on the bike, I jumped into my first ever "A group" ride last night. After a short warmup we started pace lining, then climbed a HUGE hill, then chased a break, recovered, and chase a break again. I hammered for well over an hour while logging in 2 1/2 hours of riding. It felt great!!

As I headed home I remember thinking, "There's no way in hell an out of shape person should ever jump into a *running* workout of that magnitude." Running just simply isn't as forgiving as swimming or cycling. If you are unprepared, pounding through hard, fast paced workouts will BEAT YOU UP. They *can* be done, but only after the proper foundations have been laid.....and that takes months (even years!).


THE SOLUTION:

Running is primarily about raising your body's ability to tolerate heavy stress. The easiest, most efficient way (arguably) is to run a lot!.....or in the case of the struggling runner, RUN MORE. The more you run, the more time your body is stimulated to improve its "endurance" and the more time your body builds a resistance to stress.

The easist way to run more is to A) SLOW DOWN and B) RUN MORE OFTEN. You don't slow down for the sake of slowing down or run more often for the sake of running more often. You do it so that you can run more. If you struggle with running and typically get 2 runs of 45min-1:30 at 85% of max heart rate (Gordo's Moderately Hard zone), instead try running 6 times at 65%-80% of max heart rate ("steady" or even "easy"). Each run can be as short as 15 minutes. Once you get used to 6 short easy runs a week, gradually build the distance of 2 or 3 of them. Start off running no more pre week than you currently do, and then add 15 minutes a week over the course of several months until you get to 3, 4, ....as much as 5 hours a week of running (admittedly this may not be a "well balanced program".....but if you struggle on the run, you may need to shift your training to be "run heavy").

For the Ney Sayers out there, correct, this is not the end all be all of run training. Intensity is needed to achieve peak fitness. Time limitations can become an issue. Many have succeeded on a "hard all the time approach." However this is targeted at the struggling runner who has never tried a high mileage, high freduency, low effort approach. 9 times out of 10 I find this to be a neccessary 1st step in building a foundation for one's career as a runner. I highly recommend giving it a try for a good 4 month block and see the results.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: May 10, 07 7:45
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I fall into the category of "struggling running" and in feb i came to Barryp for some advice. This is the plan he suggested and i have seen some real results. Previously i was running 3 days a week, 30min, 40min, 90min at the one speed i knew which was as hard as i could go but typically 90 to 100% of my max. This just wasnt working and my run splits were awful with my PR for 5k being somewhere around 7:45min pace but my normal was 8:45 to 9 min mile pace. More importantly i was blowing up on my longer runs and in my two HIMs i needed to walk a good bit of the run.

I needed to take a step backwards to move forward but that is what i did. I started running much slower and added 3 more 15min runs to my routine all at 60 - 80% of my max. That took some discipline but when i got it i felt much better while running. Soon enough it wasnt much for me to do 6 runs a week (i would have never considered it in the past) and then i made my 15s into 30s and so on.

Today i am 4 months into this program and my race times have improved dramatically. I havent done a 5k race yet but in my runs i do around 7:30's at 80% of my max for my shorter efforts. Last week i did the broad st run and i finished 1:19 which is around 7:55 pace. That in itself isnt all that impressive but the i did it at 85% of my max and felt strong and could have easily continued for another 5 or so miles at that pace. Yes i understand its an easy course but coming from where i was last season this is huge for me.

Bottom line, from one struggling runner to another this is very sound advice.

Jay
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP,

Great advice again.

I would add that throwing in some strides and drills at the end of a few of those easy runs will help as well.

BarryP's drills from anther post:

2x10 high knees (run in place pumping your knees as high and fast as you can).
2x10 skips (skip and drive the forward knee as high as possible).
2x10 butt kickers (run in place and bring the heel up to the butt).
4x50 meter strides concentrating on lifting the feet off the ground without bobbing your head up and down.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Absolutly brilliant advice, seriously.

It's really pretty simple - probably too simple for people to get. Slow down and run more frequently, and do it for 4 months. The performance improvements are almost gauranteed.

But now back to talking about bike parts and bike riding :)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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I would add that throwing in some strides and drills at the end of a few of those easy runs will help as well.
___________________

I always forget to add those. Thanks as usual for being on top of me!

I remember a big argument with triguy42 a while ago. He was recomending "speedwork" year round. As it turns out, those 50meter striders was exactly what he meant, and they should be done 3 days a week.....especially with all that slower running taking place.


Re: the drills - don't forget about my soup cans!! ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent post. I have been proselytizing the same idea to many friends over the past year. Mainly because it is now something I am undertaking.

I have been running for 25 years. My basic workout was always no shorter than 4 miles (usually 7:xx pace). Over the years, no matter what the fitness, I could hit that workout with ease. My training was always sporadic and if I hit over 30 miles a week, it was something special.

Now that I have hit the mid 30's mark, things don't recover like they once did. I can't quite jump into the same stupid training that I used to do. Compound it with 10 lbs that came from santa this year and at least 20-25 lbs over race weight - and the old quick 4 miler turns into the "sore body maker".

Soooooo, what to do? Well, a few weeks ago I got back on the running horse. BUT I am now running 20 minutes a day. MINUTES. Why? Well, I can recover from it. I can ride as well and not add to the muscle breakdown. And because in a week or two I can bump 'er up to 25 minutes. AND I KNOW I CAN MAINTAIN IT. As the weight comes off, legs toughen up, and fitness accrues - I know I will be back to the "old me" and injury free.

For some of these shorter workouts, I like to use my treadmill.

Another little trick I have learned is to split your long days - run half in the am / half in the pm.

By far most of us should be following your ideas. WE ARE NOT PROS WE SHOULD NOT / CANNOT TRAIN LIKE PROS.


-----
"I do my best to slay" - Matt Pike
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [Buck Turgidson] [ In reply to ]
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WE ARE NOT PROS WE SHOULD NOT / CANNOT TRAIN LIKE PROS.
_________________

I occasinally run with former duathlon world champ Greg Watson. His program blows my mind away (and usually blows my doors off as well......I got my butt kicked on our last run). Yes, his program was more of the "harder is harder" approach. It takes a special talent and years of consistent training to pull that off, IMO.


BTW, years ago when I was fat and out of shape, I adopted a 3 miles a day program that included running as far as I could possibly run and walking the rest. I started with a 1 mile run followed by a two mile walk. I remember clear as day the time I went out for a woderful 5 mile run through town and realized that it felt good and that I was, for the first time in 4 years "in shape."

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, again excellent and timely post, as most are ramping up for the season by doing speedwork for a race months away. I have to admit that every time I move back to this strategy I improve dramatically, and feel good doing it. Thanks so much for reminding me!
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I think that part of the problem is that most MOP triathletes who struggle with running (actually, with any of the individual sports) suffer from two major problems, which are sort of related:

1) Their time frame is too short (ie they want to be faster in 1-2 months instead of saying "Starting today, I am going to do everything I can so that in 3 years I am as fast as possible, even if in the short term I get slower)

2) They are unwilling to fully embrace a single sport focus for an extended period. Usually, they claim they are afraid they will "lose their fitness in the other events." Training for 3 events makes it very difficult to have a big breakthrough in any of them.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, even those who are able to run faster than average need to slow down on the slow days. I have dropped the pace on my slow days by 30-45 seconds per mile and have seen better gains during the Tempo, Track, and Long run sessions. Everyone should ask the question? where do they want to see improvement in their routine? Race day, quality days, EZ days? Hopefully, no one will answer EZ days.

-Woody
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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You're right. If you don't come to triathlon, especially with a very solid run history it should be a several year plan. It is also the mistake which I made that is jumping to IM too soon.



http://bigisland-will.blogspot.com/
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty awesome post. I have been trying to tell that to a few folks. It is a pretty hard sell. Nice write up. Slowing down to get faster just does seem to make much sense, but it works. All it takes is patience and time, something most don't have or are willing to sacrifice a bit.

Consistency not intensity are keys to making great strides in performance.



Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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If hampered by a tight schedule and limited to 4 days a week where I can run, would running twice a day accomplish the same goals as running 6 days a week? Or is it simply better to increase the distance on the one run a day?
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [LittleRingMan] [ In reply to ]
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If hampered by a tight schedule and limited to 4 days a week where I can run, would running twice a day accomplish the same goals as running 6 days a week? Or is it simply better to increase the distance on the one run a day?
___________________________

Evenly spreading your runs out is the best way to go. However, yes, twice a day 4 days a week (8 runs) is the next best thing.

So, for example, instead of running 50 minutes a day you can run 20-30 minutes every morning and 30-40 minutes every afternoon.

I'd start with just two doubles a week to make sure that your body is recovering in the 8-10 hours of rest between am and pm workouts. As always, start small and gradually build the mileage over time.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would add that throwing in some strides and drills at the end of a few of those easy runs will help as well.
___________________

I always forget to add those. Thanks as usual for being on top of me!

I remember a big argument with triguy42 a while ago. He was recomending "speedwork" year round. As it turns out, those 50meter striders was exactly what he meant, and they should be done 3 days a week.....especially with all that slower running taking place.
Yep, and you made fun of me because I was using the wrong terminology, not being from a track background. Wink The OP is basically what helped me last year go from an "easy 9 pace" for 10-15 milers down to a "easy 8:15 pace" for the same courses, over a period of about 3 or 4 months. I did a lot of 5k and 7 mile distances, with occasional 5k-with-2x1mi-repeats. These mile repeats started out at 6:45/7:15 for 1st and 2nd, and ended up at 6:17/6:35 over that period. When I actually went out and did a max 5k I finally broke a 7:00 pace by a few seconds. I found that doing the occasional 0.25mi or 0.5mi stride in the middle of an easy 7 miler was a lot easier than trying to go to a track and do it. I frequently treated the last 0.2mi of my 7 milers as a stride as well.

This year hasn't had any speed improvement because I was training for a 50 miler, but the base of ~75%-of-max should allow me to convert to speed over the summer...I hope.


Mad
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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1) Their time frame is too short (ie they want to be faster in 1-2 months instead of saying "Starting today, I am going to do everything I can so that in 3 years I am as fast as possible, even if in the short term I get slower)
____________________________

I ran into exactly the same problem this winter. My recovery time took so long after my IM that I left myself with a short block of time to build ap for a race. I tried to sneak it in there and just ended up getting hurt. Now I have a race coming up in 6 weeks while my A race is in 5 months. I keep double checking myself everytime I think to "sneak" in a good performance in 6 weeks. "I'm just training through this one!"

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [triguy42] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, and you made fun of me because I was using the wrong terminology, not being from a track background. Wink The OP is basically what helped me last year go from an "easy 9 pace" for 10-15 milers down to a "easy 8:15 pace" for the same courses, over a period of about 3 or 4 months.
_______________________

Well I'm glad our little fight worked out for th ebetter ; ^ ) I actually learned a lot from that discussion....especially when it comes to terminology.

Those pickups in the middle and the end are a pretty good way to get a little "speed" in there.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for this Barry! I'm proof positive of the results of running more frequently. In my first season of tri in 2005, I ran 3 times/week, but last year, leading up to IMFL, I was running 5 times/week with two hill sessions in there and it really helped. I also became faster at shorter distance running shaving nearly a minute/mile off my run pace.

------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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From someone who spent 25 minutes today with a HR of about 130-135, max 178, Thank you Thank you. I wish I had read this thread about a month ago before I tweaked my achilles, or two months ago before I tweaked my calf. I am only on my first week of "back at it" and thought this time, maybe I will just take it slow for a little while before getting back into my normal 150-160 HR runs.

My plan was 3x/week 25-30 minutes at the 130-135 range.

I bike 4x, swim 3x.

Any suggestions to the "plan?" i.e., better to do 4 15 minutes?

BTW, I don't belong here, I am a 55 minute 10k pr who is still learning how to swim.

Thank you again.
Last edited by: bvfrompc: May 10, 07 11:11
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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As far as the big picture is concerned, i tend to agree with your philosophy. There are many different ways to achieve thee goals. One of my approaches is to do easy intervals. For example, I will do a set of 8 X 800m intervals. Each one will be slightly faster than the previous one. The first one could be at an 8-9 min pace and the last will be at a 6:30-7 min pace. The rest interval is about 30 to 60 sec.

This approach works well for me. It allows me to gradually gauge my exertion level, and I will back off if I find that I am overdoing it. These are not VO2 max. They start out easy and gradually go up to LT.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [Dreadnought] [ In reply to ]
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But what you describe in your post is almost the exact opposite............

tfun~
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [bvfrompc] [ In reply to ]
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Any suggestions to the "plan?" i.e., better to do 4 15 minutes?
_______________________

It all depends on exactly *where* your limitations are. Typically its time, but not always. I recommend 6 short easy runs a weak (even if three of them are 15 minutes on the treadmill after a swim) until you build up to your time limit (maybe you only have time to run 3 hours a week). Once you hit your weekly time goal, then you phase out some of the runs and build up the other ones.

In th egrand scheme of things, 3 runs a week at 90% maxHR wowuld only be adviseable if you don't have the time to run any more than that. If, however, you could easily run more, I would make at least one of those a long easy effort, building up to at least 90 minutes.

.....that, of course, is way down the road. For now its lots of short easy runs.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this protocol through my program with Mitch Gold @ Counterpart Coaching and my run has improved and more importantly I have been injury free.

Related article from his website -- http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/slowdown.htm
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [mike419] [ In reply to ]
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Great article. Thanks for the link.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Their time frame is too short[/quote]
#1 probelm I have with athletes who approach me to get faster. they want to be real fast, real fast. Doesn't happen that way if you want to sustain that real fast for real long.

Rockhopper1 also mentioned consistency- no consistency = you are not going to get faster. The consistency isn't for 1-2 or even 3-4 months, if for 4 -5-6-7-8-13-24-36 months. Try being consistent for a long time and good things happen. 70% of all triathletes I talk with are too impatient.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry P., I just had to reply with sort of a different take....I'm completely new to training with any sort of "program." I used to just go out and do whatever, whenever I felt like it.

Which brings me to 2 weeks till my first marathon, religiously following a set program. And I feel very ready.....

I'm a very weak runner, with absolutely no track background whatsoever. When I slowed down on the long run, and continued ramping up mileage during the week, I couldn't believe the inadvertant gains. Inadvertant I say b/c it was all done UNintentionally. I slowed down more b/c I was fearful of crashing and burning during long mileage. When I'd finish and feel strong I was pleasantly surprised.

So speaking for someone who's not trying to get faster, slowing down does work. Once I let go of finishing at some arbitrary time, I found I made great gains.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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There have been a few similar threads, but this one seemed the most appropriate to reply to.

Specifics, no real running background. Usually ran ~10MPW 50% of the year, just enough to get off the saddle, or during a quick lunch breaks. Decided (got goaded) into doing a 1/2 mary in November. Started training in Sept. Plan called for 4X week, 3-6 during the week and 6-12 long run on the WE (plan from marathonrookie.com). I had trouble recovering from the long run, but I also could never feel good about the 2 days in a row. Eventually, I dropped the short day of the week, and would generally have 3 strong runs ~4 , ~6 & ~10 (20-25MPW). BUT I was always sore for 1-2days afterwards.

I have taken your advice and have been trying this run everyday thing (or 6X). Generally its 6x3mi (maybe up to 5mi). The problem is that I haven't had a run where I felt "good" since the first one. Currently I'm in the 215# range, seldom drop below 200#, and did the 1/2 @210#, and it seems like its a struggle for recovery.

How long would you stick to this type of plan before you decide that it is doing more harm than good? I.e. hip/knee/lower back pain. How long should it take to see the adaptation take place. I was going to give it a month to determine if the nagging stuff went away, but is that not long enough?
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, I realize you posted this ~8 months ago, but thanks...I never saw the original post... now have >150 people on this "program"
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, I'm not sure if I wrote it hear, but I often refer people to you for the more...uh...."zen" way of saying pretty much the same thing.

It's the trial of miles, baby.

BTW, I'm wearing my splint right now. I gotta heal those feet!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [corinwright] [ In reply to ]
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I don't typically hear of people having your issues. In the end you have to push square pegs into square holes and round ones into round holes. The entire goal of running 6 days a week is to get more mileage in. You may find in your case that you need to play around with your schedule until you find something that works. If it hurts you have to cut back.

At the collegiate level you'll find very few decent programs that don't train twice a week at least some of the time. We had to run Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday in the am. It's a great plan, but I'll be honest - morning runs just killed me. My body seems to just wake up really slow. Everything was stiff in the morning and my shins always hurt when I did the am runs. Despite the fact that I would recommend doubles for 95% of the competetive college runners, I don't think it was the right thing for me to do.

1st thing is to absolutely make sure your pace isn't too fast. You should be able to comfortably carry a conversation when you run. Your heart rate should be between 65-80% of your max. If that is under control and you still feel beat up, then you may want to cut back to 3 days a week and occasionaly attmempt that 4th day. Maybe even start off by running 3 days and then walking that 4th day...eventaully building up to a 1 mile run....then more, etc. I don't want to discourage you, but it may not be in the cards for you if that doesn't work.

Good luck.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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All I know is I ran a lot less in 07 compared to 06, and even the two years before that, and run a lot faster in 07.
Oh well, I love to be different and trying to save my legs.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: Jan 10, 08 14:51
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I think that I get that, but I am also not naive enough to think that week 1 or 2 on this type of plan would be easy or painless. Is it something that I should give a month before I make a decision, two months?

Obviously, if I thought that the pain was not something that I could work through I would have stopped already. The pain is really secondary. On the 3X, 4/6/9, I would usually run in the 9-9.5min/mile range for the 4&6 and the 9.5-10min/mile range on the 9. Now, in doing 6x3mi, I am in the 10.5-11min/mile range. So where I was slow, I now feel really slow. (Yes I can carry on a conversation)
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [corinwright] [ In reply to ]
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How fast can you run in a race?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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How long :)

I have only run 2 races. a 5K corporate race in ~25min, and a half-mary (it was 13.31) in 2:11, or 9:53 pace.

Did not really push in either (both were "fun" races run with friends).
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [corinwright] [ In reply to ]
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I like to use the website to calculate training paces:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/...unningcalculator.htm

I'd prefer to use your 5K time since you don't train nearly enough to be "in shape" for a half mary. He has your doing your runs at anywhere from 9:50/mile - 11:20/mile. My experience has been that as your mileage and frequency goes up, your pace drops down. As long as you are running faster than 11:20 pace, you are "training." It may seem slow, but that's how fast you are.

It takes a little patience. Most people I talk to hate it at first, but after a month or two they start to see results and get used to the slower pace.

As far as how long it takes for the adaptation to take place, as I general rule I never expect to see results until I've done something for 6 weeks. I think there's actually some research to back this up, but that's just been my experience. There's improvement in between, but that's the point where I look back at my logs and say, "Wow..I have gotten faster."

Definitely take care not to get hurt. Stretch all the muscles around the areas that are sore. That would be lower back, upper back, quads, calves, glutes, and hamstrings. Strecth them before and after every run.

Hope it helps.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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"THE ANSWER: Run slower. Run more often. Run more."

I think Dev Paul's 100 run challenge helped address this for me and I think it is helping but it is too early to tell.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [corinwright] [ In reply to ]
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How is your form? I remember when I started training for my first marathon several years ago. I was always sore, because my form was wrong. I was overstriding, landing on my heel with my foot way out in front. My leg would be almost straight causing the impact to be absorbed by my leg bones, knee and hip joints. The longer the distances I ran, the more sore I was, regardless of my pace. That all changed when I adopted a mid-foot style running form. This style utilizes the muscles to a much greater degree to absorb the impact resulting in significantly less pain and allowing me to run much longer distances.

Of course for you, your weight comes into play as well. The force of impact from a 215# person is much greater than from someone weighing 40-50 pounds less. It may take you much longer to adapt to the stresses and you may have to keep your runs on the short side until you do.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Lets say we anticipate a 4 mo build to get to 4 hrs/weekly of easy paced running. Any recommendations when or when not to enter a race? I'll have 3 hrs in this week of very easy running. I feel good, no residual, recovery is quick, but the thought of putting the hammer down for a 10k or 1/2 seems far off. This is a new approach for me and I'm a couple of months into it but I have no paradigmn for race readiness.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [Chappy] [ In reply to ]
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If you're one of those freaks who never gets injured, then you can race anytime you want. ; ^ ) For the rest of us, you can still race anytime you want but keep in mind that you need to hold yourself back to where you are only running 95%.

For 100% effort, I don't like to do any until you've done *some* running at all speeds. So lets say, for example, you want to be race ready by April 1st but wish to "peak" in the end of June. I think for *most* people (us mortals) 3 months is just way to long to hold any kind of peak fitness, so I like to keep the intensity down a bit until the last 4-6 weeks.

So lets say you've done lots of easy running in December, January, and Febuary. Again, you could always keep with the easy running and run this race at 95%, but if its kind of important to you I'd make sure I had at least 3 weeks of 20 minute tempo runs + some moderately hard workouts like 6-8x200 at ~mile race pace with 200 jogs or 4x800 @ ~5K race pace with 400 jogs. Mileage would have to be cut back a bit to handle the faster running. This, in my mind, would be geared toward a 5K. As the race gets longer, cut back more and more on the faster stuff and add more and more of the tempo training.

See my threads on balanced training and on periodization for a little more depth.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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[/reply]
If you're one of those freaks who never gets injured, then you can race anytime you want. ; ^ )
LOL you can't imagine how I am so not in that end of the gene pool! Thanks for the rest of your thoughts. All familiar and so not too difficult to measure readiness with the tempo and track training. I've heard anecdotes of folks on the Maffetone/Allen approach who show up on race day with little to no tempo and speed work and race pace is available in abundance. You seem to support doing some speed work in moderation. I'm in my 50's now and my body is telling me a training adjustment is needed if I want to stay in the game. The slow-easy approach has been enjoyable but the internal competitior wants to come out and play but the body is saying not yet! Which begs the question when/how to put races on the calendar. Enjoying the thread. Thanks
Last edited by: Chappy: Jan 11, 08 9:37
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [Chappy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not 50....and fear what's going to happen when I get there. I'm 34 and extremely injury prone. In 5 years of collegiate competetition, I was injured and not training for 33 out of 60 months.

I'm re-evaluating myself and my running "career" as well. I've got 3-4 more "peak" years before age really becomes a factor. I've just been side lined for 3 months with plantar fasciaitis. The fact is I *know* I'll be leaving something on the table if I don't train at 100%, but the reality is I'll be faster if I train at 85% and avoid injury. I'm coming to accept that.

Regarding injury prone-ness, a training partner of mine said that he saw recomendation on the lets run forum to focus more of your trainin on the tempo runs and less on all the other high intensity stuff.

As an additional thought, I talked to desert dude recently (who's a good running/tri coach) who suggested that the "rep training" (mile race pace stuff) be kept to 200 meter repeats instead of 400m. The reasoning is that that extra 200m really doesn't give you any added benefit yet add the potential to injury. After all, that second half is where you start to struggle.

Someone might come on here and disagree and point out all these great athletes who hammer 1/4s, but we have to keep in mind that one of the reasons they are so good is that they don't get injured as often as well as the fact that an extra 10 seconds for them in a 5K means the difference between going to the Olympics or watching it on TV. For you and me its the difference between a 15:40 or a 15:50 (or 21:00 and 21:10 for a 50 y.o. ; ^ ) which really doesn't mean anything. It's just not worth it.

Anyway, coming up to races, you could even do something as simple as one 20 minute tempo run a week and one mixed moderate fartlek run for 15-20 minutes with some hills. I think you just need something the stimulate your different energy systems so that its not a shock when you come off the starting line.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, I know this is not the point but can you explain fartlek? just run hard whenever you feel like it and try to get it to add up to a certain amount? What is a workout you would recommend for the 200s. Say I am going to race a 1/2 marathon and want to do some intensity twice a week as I build up, maybe a 30-50 minute tempo and some mile repeats? or would you recommend the 200s instead?

Thanks for the advice!

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

http://www.aiatriathlon.com
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [dtreeps] [ In reply to ]
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"Fartlek" can really mean lots of thing. Technically in means "speed play." When I talk about it I mean mainly running a somewhat random series of pickups ranging anywhere from 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. When you do it in an unstructured fashion, you tend to hold back more than if you were to run on a track and try to hit X time per lap.

My collegiate coach would have more structured workouts where we'd run 3min hard, jog 2min and repeat several times. Some will call that a fartlek. What I desribed in the above post was intended more just to get a mix of different efforts once aweek or so.

I *ocassionally* run with Greg Watson (former Du World Champ) who does a lot of this type of training. His mantra is, "be consistent and vary your training." He's not real methodical, but he's fast. ; ^ )

If you look at my thread on balanced training you'll see what I recommend....or at least the idea behind it. You should so *some* faster training, like 200s, but they won't be as important as the mile repeats...and neither of those will be as important as the tempo runs....and that still won't be as important as months and months of high mileage.

For a half marathon I'd recommend simply doing 6x100 at a "significantly faster than 5K BUT definitely not sprinting" pace with full recoveries after each workout. That'll be plenty of speed. If you were training for a 5K, I'd recommend a lot more.

Also, pick up Pfitzinger's Road Racing for Serious Runners. It's a good, easy to read, straight to the point book with programs in the back. You'll see right in there what his recommendations are.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, I'm even more conservative than Barry. He suggests seeing some adaptations in 6 weeks...I agree with that...after 6 weeks the frequency and mileage should feel easier...however, don't expect to see any real "performance gains with respect to speed" for 6 months, or even a year. I think by your "second round" of going through this, you'll see a leap in performance. As Fleck says, week over week, month over month, year of year...the good news is that you did have some "year over year" in the past...once you do it again, I think you'll see a big leap in 18 months, but even this summer things should be faster....I just think that summer of 2009 will be where you have a bigger gain.

This is what I see:

Phase 1: 100/100
Phase 2: then after that 3-4 months where you keep up frequency, add in long runs and hills/intervals/intensity
Phase 3: 2 months of 3-5 times week 10K sessions
Phase 4: another round of 100/100 this time a bit longer in each run and a bit faster
Phase 5: repeat phase 2, this time even faster!!!
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I started running last spring, and limited my running to every other day, and focussed on building distance, then in latter summer and autum, did a lot of track interval workouts (probably one a week).

I dropped my 5k from 29:30 to 20:00, and my mile from 7:30 (not measured at start, but partway into summer) to 5:30.

Now I've dropped the interval workouts entirely and am focussed on building total weekly distance and doing long runs on weekends again.

I run substantially slower than the McMillan calculator times listed for even easy or long, and I'm ok with that. I don't know why I run much slower than his calculator, but, hey, oh well. I'm not young.
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [typo9943] [ In reply to ]
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I really enojoyed this post and I have been using these principles over past 3-4months. I'm not saying this approach works for everyone but it has certainly worked very well for me.

I'm like you Barry. I'm very injury prone and have been consistently injured since 2004. It's only now since the last 3-4 mths that I have finally been able to put together some vey consitent running and still be injury free. It has been a complete overhaul though in terms of changing my philosphies on training.

Below are my results for three 8k run tests that I have done, spaced approximately 6 weeks apart. Never in my life did I ever contemplate getting my Aet pace (ie top of zone 1) down to the pace it is at now.


******Test Date: 17th October 2007
2km W/U
4km @ Aet, (av sp 5:05, av hr 144bpm)
1. 4:54, (141bpm)
2. 5:11, (145bpm)
3. 5:05, (146bpm)
4. 5:09, (146bpm)
4km @ Aet +10bpm (av sp 4:43, av hr 156bpm
5. 4:35, (155bpm)
6. 4:48, (157bpm)
7. 4:46, (157bpm)
8. 4:46, (156bpm)
******Test Date: 16th November 2007
2km W/U
4km @Aet (av sp 4:49min/k, av hr 143bpm). PB by 16seconds
1. 4:39 (137bpm)
2. 4:53 (145bpm)
3. 4:55 (145bpm)
4. 4:49 (146bpm)
4km @Aet +10bpm (av sp 4:25min/k, av hr 158bpm). PB by 18 seconds
1. 4:20 (156bpm)
2. 4:29 (159bpm)
3. 4:30 (158bpm)
4. 4:21 (159bpm)

******Test Date: 4th January 2008
2km W/U
4km @ Aet (av pace 4:32min/k, av hr 145bpm). PB by 17 seconds
1. 4:17, (143bpm)
2. 4:36, (146bpm)
3. 4:38, (146bpm)
4. 4:37, (146bpm)
4km @ Aet +10bpm (4:20min/k, av hr 157bpm). PB by 5 seconds
1. 4:18, (155bpm)
2. 4:25, (158bpm)
3. 4:22, (157bpm)
4. 4:15, (157bpm)



This is basically what I do between the 8k run tests in terms of training.
1. I focused mainly on frequency. I made every effort to try and run at least 5 times each week.
2. All my runs were in the 30-50minute range. I wanted to ensure that my form was good and would not break down as I became tired. I feel like I’m not ready yet to run up over an hour. I can still feel small changes in my running economy and efficiency when I start running beyond 40minutes. For that reason I was only doing maybe an extra 10minutes to extend myself.
3. I use the 9minute on and 1minite off run protocol. This means that no matter how good I feel. I will always walk 1minute after every 9minutes of running. This has really help with my recovery and it actually allows me to run a lot faster at lower HR’s. I can keep resetting myself and I feel fresh each time I start my new 9minute block. I feel lighter on my feet and I am able to hold my good running form for longer. Therefore, I’m not letting bad habits become part of my running routine.
4. I do all my runs on soft surfaces. This is hard in Tokyo but it has really help me stay in the game and keep those tired legs from becoming unnecessarily too tired and run down.
5. I stretch and ice after every run for at least 20mintues. I’ve had to do this to work around the foot problems I’m experiencing. I’ll also add that I have a lower body massage once PW.
6. I carry fluids with me on every run. I always run with a fuel belt now and make sure I’m drinking every 10-15minutes to try and give myself every chance not to break down. It’s good to train the body to handle good fatigue. Dehydration is bad fatigue.
7. Low HR running. I do about 80% of my weekly volume consists of running at around 130bpm. This is a good 10-15bpm below my Aet. I’ll do about 10% at and around my lower steady zone (ie 140-145bpm) and then I’ll do around 5-10% at my Max staeady state (150-155bpm). This is mostly in the form of strides and fartlek runs.
8. I’m not going to do any Intensity (ie tempo runs, intervals) until I hit a plateau. If I don’t ht a plateau I keep going with the protocol outlined above. Once I enter my specific preps for a race then you’ll start seeing my doing a lot of running between Aet and Aet +10bpm. This would mean long tempo runs and intervals runs in between 4:20-4:45min/k.
I hope that helps
Paul

Last edited by: fluro2au: Jan 11, 08 20:25
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP

Thanks for the great advise. I have a question regarding my current approach. Right now I will do one medium (1hr -1.5hr) and one long (1.5-2.5hr) run per week. I also do 4 other runs (15min-1hr). However, these 4 runs are always part off the bike/bricks.

Do you see any problems with this?

Thanks,
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [bdh02] [ In reply to ]
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Looks fine to me.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I'm not 50....and fear what's going to happen when I get there.
I'm in my 50's and I'm happier than I was any other decade before. Yes I'm slower and have to make sure I get more rest and recovery, but there is an overall confidence and satisfaction that comes with age. And I think you appreciate the little things a lot more. Don't be afraid...look forward to it!

Live long and surf!
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [typo9943] [ In reply to ]
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"I started running last spring, and limited my running to every other day, and focussed on building distance, then in latter summer and autum, did a lot of track interval workouts (probably one a week).
I dropped my 5k from 29:30 to 20:00, and my mile from 7:30 (not measured at start, but partway into summer) to 5:30."

I don't know Barry, but I wish I'd have followed this guys training plan instead...
Dude starts running in the spring, and by mid-summer he rips off a 5:30 mile? I worked for 14 years to break 20min in a 5K. He did it in a few months. I need details!

Brad

3SIXTY5cycling.com
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Re: Runtraining7 - Struggling with running? Many have improved from this simple fix. [hillier99] [ In reply to ]
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Details? Well, there's a couple of details that are important. #1 would be talent. ; ^ )

Would it help if I told you that in August of 1987 I ran 2 miles in 22 minutes (11 minute mile), 4 months later I ran a 5K in 18:20, I took 3 months completely off, but then in another 2 months of training I ran the mile in 4:50?

; ^ )


There are a multitude of workouts that need to come together to reach peak performance. I cover some of this in my threads on Balnced training and periodization. In general, you want lots of easy mileage year round with periods of faster training leading up to your races. The shorter the race, the more fast training you need. Nobody is going to run their best mile by running only slow mileage. However, nobody is going to do it either running every other day.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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