Endurance - the ability to do the action for a long time (pedal a century at 15mph)
Force - the ability to apply force to the action (put out big watts for a short time)
Muscular Endurance = force + endurance aka put out big watts for a long time

I thought you had read TTB/Going Long?

It's a part of endurance, scientifically. Practically, it's that point where power is extended over longer durations. Maybe not a scientific construct, but definitely a useful mental one.

Let's dive deeper....

Example A: I'm a TT specialist in flat long course. I can hold my threshold power, but have a hard time on hills and shorter effort compared to my counterparts. What am I missing?

Example B: My name is Ramussen and I can generate large amounts of wattage for climbs, but have a hard time maintaining power for long periods of time to be known as a TT specialist. What am I missing?

I hear what you're saying, but it appears there is a grey area where you see black and white. If there are (3) energy systems, it appears there would be infinite number of combination for each individual rider to enhance their skill. Perhaps it's just an argument over the term "muscular endurance" rather than the actual area which is represented on his triangle......

No?

Paulo, I'm wondering that if you changed the statement from "motivational issues" to "neural performance" there might be some truth to it when it relates to performance. Some people can concentrate for an hour or a few at high levels of concentration (be it crunching numbers using Maxwell's equations or riding a bike). Some people can never apply a lot of brain power, but can grind away doing an audit of Worldcom's books for many hours a day or ride at 18 mph all day. Some people can just concentrate for longer than others, and it is reflected in how hard they can go. When the brain stops telliing the muscles to fire, then everything stops...how else can we explain a guy running 6 minute miles at the end of a marathon, and then crossing the finish line and unable to walk a step? Did something magical happen in the muscles 1 millimeter past the finish? I'm not sure. The brain is a powerful thing. I'm don't really care if motivation/neural performance fits into a definition of muscular endurance (or any endurance), but to Dawhead's point, it is a factor in how a person performs.

First some definitions. Traditional Tri Training folklore: LSD = Endurance.

Can there not exist two people such that Joe and Bob can put out 500 watts for 60 seconds, and both can pedal for 8 hours, yet Joe does his 8 hours best at 200 watts while Bob can only put forth 150 watts?

Scientifically the limiter may be "endurance", but the workouts needed to correct Bob's deficiency is [probably] not more LSD work. Hence the notation "muscular endurance".

Call it what you want. The biology isn't as important as the mental constructs and results:

Endurance: LSD.
Force: Hill Repeats.
ME: Tempo.

Example A: If you're talking about rollers, that you have to "power up", then your anaerobic capacity plays a role there. If it's long climbs, you're probably lacking specificity and you need to devote more time to ride hills.

Example B: My name is Rasmussen and I have an excellent power/weight ratio basically due to my weight. When in flat time-trials, where absolute power and aerodynamics are more important, I lose to the others because of shitty aerodynamics and an average threshold power when compared with others.

There are 3 energy systems, but one is responsible for over 95% of energy production for events above 2minutes (don't give me a hard time about the percentage here).

If you still want to consider the triangle, then it is pretty useless for endurance sports because force or speed are NEVER a limiter. So if you want to think about the triangle, just remember that in endurance sports you're so near the endurance tip that the others are too far away for you to worry about them.

So if you die on rollers, then anaerobic endurance is your limiter? Friel would prescribe short submaximal efforts to address this. Are you saying long course athletes need "speed work"? How much?

I'm still not catching ya. Maybe you can explain in portuguese. (kidding...then I'd have to call my psycho x-girlfriend to translate...and she'd probably kill me).

Okay...let's say I have endurance, I've finished 8 Ironmans in 12 hours. I wanna improve both my bike and run. Doesn't the fundmental issue of training with power to increase functional threshold? Wouldn't this be the medium between endurance and force? Or would you simply call this an incease in endurance?

Shouldn't it be speed-endurance there? Got to get your Friel lingo right there...

Just tell me what to do Feb. 16th.

Bingo! It IS an increase in endurance, there isn't nothing else to increase.

Dev,

What you're asking is more or less this:

"If I'm doing this race and would prefer to be sitting on the couch drinking beer, what exactly is happening in my muscles?"

"Okay...let's say I have endurance, I've finished 8 Ironmans in 12 hours."

If the person was serious about improving their IM time, here's what I would suggest. Take a year or two AWAY from IM. Most people doing IM in this time zone tend to be in a bit of a rut - the training is likely ALL the same. Time to shake it up. These athletes possibly have a monster base, so take a year or two and REALLY focus on the Olympic distance races and shorter. Side projects would include setting life time absolute best standalone performances in the 10K run and the 40K ITT. If this is done right, they will come back to IM racing in a year or two and take a huge chunk of time off their IM PR.

Just a thought.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm still not getting it....

Assuming PE is the same (while increasing FT), how is this only endurance?

I know you're going to say that's the definition of endurance, but I'm hoping you're going to acknowledge the part about getting faster by somehow saying that it's impacting force as well.....

What's the point of intervals (on the bike) for Ironman racing?

B/c Paulo is saying that focusing on force isn't going to yield gains b/c it's still an endurance activity......

I have said above, force is a component of endurance. As you improve with training, the force requirements for any endurance sport go up a very small fraction.

Hey Paulo...yes and no. Sometime a guy is out there racing and actually WANTS to go harder, but cannot get his muscles to harder. Is it possible that the efficiency of the neural transmitters going from the brain to the muscles to get those muscles to contract is not that great after 8 hours? Are those electrical signals getting weaker? I don't know, I'm just postulating with no background. All I can say is that for most humans doing any task involving the central nervous system, the ability to concentrate seems to decline after many hours of repitition. Some people can concentrate at moderate levels for much longer...some can concentrate at high levels of processing for short to moderate periods. There is an element of how our brains are wired that has an impact in all athletic pursuits. Its not as simple as getting more endurance in many cases...

I thought I would save that for posterity ;-)

And yes, there are neuro-muscular elements to fatigue. However, that's not what we're discussing here.

Paulo, I added that to appease you so that you can feel smart, because if we don't cater to your ego, we run the risk of you getting bent out of shape :-)...and I'd rather speak with someone who is humble enough to admit when they are just guessing (and admit it) rather than someone who claims to know everything about the human body when his education is actually in fluids...

While you may not be discussing the neuro side, some of us are...including Dawhead :-)

The less knowledgable often think that the more knowledgable are guessing. Oh, forgot the passive-aggressive smiley... oooops... my bad...

;-)

I'm glad your ego has been sufficiently catered too :-). Why don't you get Barry to start the Neuromuscular thread so that we are allowed to discuss another aspect that relates to performance :-)

:-)^2

Only on race week...

That made me laugh out loud. Great job.

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In another post ...

These strength trainers advising failure sets (God Bless Arthur Jones) ... are they going on a 45 minute run and 45 swim the following day?

Wouldn't common sense suggest the most applicable form of "strength training" for cycling would be "riding 40 minutes in a gear -- or two or three -- higher than you normally ride"? Isn't that progressive resistance? It sure seems a lot more applicable to cycling than doing sets of 20 or 50 leg presses.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Now children do I have to turn this car around!