Thanks for the feedback

Thanks Jakers - Never said I was having fatigue or too much resistance ... (am I sure my horse isn't too slow? kidding)

Thanks Emelio - if the material was not mere cloth and if it was only 1" in width, I'd wonder if this could be experimented with to the point that best loss is not noticeable and it is more flexible.... your sleeve idea is nice, but leaves about 5-6" of bare shoulder exposed, as you're aware

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I like your idea of a more flexible shoulder by including a strip of alternate material, but I foresee an issue with bonding/attaching the material to the neoprene in the arm and torso. Plus, the material would need to be waterproof and stretchy.
What would you think of having the wetsuit designed so the arms are pointed up rather than down by the side? If not up, maybe a more neutral position than straight down.

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Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour

Thanks for the feedback

DeSoto and Roma have done the arms up thing...

I'm not sure the material would need flexibility, waterproofness is a given, and attaching non neoprene materials to neoprene has been done extensively

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I tested a Synergy when I did my wet suit testing and found it to be pretty fast. I've had some athletes swim in it over the years. I think it's a suit that better for those with a little more upper body size vs thin lightly muscled.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

But who was testing it? "Average" triathletes? Or swimmers? I don't care about insulation at all - the only reason I wear a wetsuit is because it's considered faster than not wearing one, and I don't want to concede an advantage to my competitors. As long as the water temp is above 60, I'm not looking for insulation. I want a suit with ZERO shoulder restriction. I'm not sure that exists. As a FOP swimmer with no kick whatsoever and a completely shoulder-driven stroke, all I want out of a wetsuit is flexibility in the shoulders. For that reason I'd jump on a suit without neoprene in the sleeves. I pretty much stopped doing triathlons because of this issue (now mostly do open water sans wetsuit).

I like the extreme sleeves concept, but I don't like the idea of having to keep track of extra gear in a race. I would worry about getting them off or losing them or whatever. That said, I haven't tried them. Maybe I will give them a go this summer.

if you simply put fabric in the shoulder area, but have fabric attaching it to neoprene sleeves, i think you'd have a terrific problem with rips in the seams as you tried to take the wetsuit off, as well as when you put it on.

i don't have particularly strong shoulders, and when i put a wetsuit on, even for the first time in a season, and i swim 1500 meters in it, i don't suffer from any shoulder restriction.

i think if your wetsuit fits, you'll have the same good experience. but if you really want to follow the line of reasoning you're pursuing, and you work and work and work and spend a year thinking and working, and morphing your design as you let your design follow your trial and error, i do think you'll eventually just end up with a de soto t1.

it's not that i think a t1 is necessary for shoulder mobility, just that if you're looking for ultimate shoulder mobility, damn everything else, that's where you end up.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Good point on the entry and exit being an issue.

But with regard to your claim that you have no restriction whatsoever in the shoulders - if this were the case, that would mean that there is absolutely no need to innovate any further with regard to neoprene materials that are more flexible. It sounds like you're suggesting that today's suits are the pinnacle and as long as you have the right fit, no more innovation needs to take place, and if you need more shoulder mobility, go with a T1.

I'm not suggesting my idea is that innovation, but I can't believe there won't continue to be innovation with regard to wetsuit design, and I can't believe that innovation won't yield better shoulder mobility in full sleeve suits.

(Note: I keep getting responses alluding to my personal issues with shoulder mobility when I've made no such claims - I'm content using a 2010 Helix! And would personally be just fine never racing in anything more flexible than that.... but suits have gotten better, and they will continue to improve)

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I'm not sure if you were actually responding to me, but as you replied to my post, I think you are. Boasting? I really don't know what you are talking about in terms of shoulder restriction in a Maverick X...basic question was have you tried it? If you want to innovate, you should start with the understanding the best examples of the status quo. (not limited to one suit...you should understand all the solutions put forward thus far.) Thus, a reasonable question to ask someone who is arguing for more innovation! I don't make wetsuits and don't have a stake in the status quo...if someone were to come up with a dramatically improved design, I would benefit too. Establishing a baseline for comparison is not boasting.

Two knowledgeable people have already responded to this thread indicating the difficulties with your proposed innovation. Blue Seventy seems to have said the same thing.

Since you are the expert on innovation here and the one who doesn't exhibit "a complete lack in the understanding of the nature of innovation," I suggest you put action behind your words..THAT is what innovators do. It really amazes me that the tone would get nasty about such an innocuous post as mine. I sincerely hope that you are hard a work at developing your ideas about wetsuits rather than waiting for all the complacent people who currently produce the most innovative wetsuits on the market.

I'm confident that after prodding wetsuit companies for at least 7 years to shake off their insistence on neoprene in the shoulders that you have the technology, the knowledge of how to cut wetsuit patterns, the ability to innovate new textiles and chemical applications, and business capital that you are willing to risk to bring your ideas to life. "Innovation" is really easy when it amounts to "companies always do X and insist that it is the cutting edge of progress, but really, doing Y would be so much better." Please, sincerely, get out there and do Y. If it works, you'll be successful.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not an expert on innovation (though my research does touch on creativity yielding innovation in business environments) and I'm not in the wetsuit business, so while you've done a great job of outlining how one would proceed with beginning with an innovative idea, I won't be able to utilize that process.

I wasn't responding directly to you, but to the general gist of responses recommending trying today's top suits with the implication that today's top suits, if well fitting, address any and all issues shoulder flexibility. I have tried today's top suits and I really like them, and if wetsuit technology never advanced, I'd personally be content. But, I didn't start a post about me or my personal issues with wetsuits (which are non-existent); I started a thread to address the crux in wetsuit design with regard to material cost and design goals: shoulder flexibility. If this issue had been addressed, then we could be pretty sure that there would never be a better and greater suit created in the future. But we know that better suits will be created. So what's the harm in asking about future designs? And what's the harm in pointing out that responses suggesting to use today's available technology and be content with it, that those responses choose to ignore the inevitability of better and greater suits being designed? I'm sorry that rubbed you the wrong way, but more so, and sincerely, I do recognize that my tone, which truly was in jest, rubbed you the wrong way and I wouldn't want to upset you or make you think I was attacking you.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Fair play milesthedog

I think we agree...

One last point of the innovation front...With the huge costs of R&D, small market, and large inventory costs (e.g. having to manufacture and stock so many different sizes), the wetsuit market is not an easy get rich quick scheme and we are probably lucky we have as much competition as we do...And you are right...Five to ten years from now I hope to look at the best of today's suits and think...What were we thinking when we thought that was fast!

I really like the idea. The original B70 Helix was marketed around that blue section of neoprene 'decoupling' the arms and this just seems like a logical evolution of that.

Having read the whole thread I'm still unsure as to why it hasn't been done already?!

I wonder if the innovation couldn't be something as simple as, make the shoulders just slightly baggy. Leave the neoprene/rubber there, but just don't make it so snug. That would be warm, water reisistant and buckle as you mention, all without really compromising the strength of the suit.

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Ian

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

But then people would bitch they were 1/2 second per 100 slower. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

All of this wetsuit banter has me pulling fabric out of boxes and cutting up wetsuits and anything else I can find.... lots of interesting ideas here.
Always takes me a while to get the thoughts out of my head and into a suit...

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Karen ST Concierge

would love to see some stuff as you progress!

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