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Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders
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I've had an idea for wetsuit design for some time and I'm curious why such a design hasn't been created:

I'd like to make a wetsuit that has no neoprene in the shoulders. Rather, it would be a full sleeve/leg neoprene wetsuit, but connecting the arms to the chest/back/armpit/neck of the wetsuit would be a thin non-stretching material that easily buckles/wrinkles so there is absolutely no added stress on the shoulder. Yes, I've used top of the line, well fitting wetsuits and there is some added resistance in the shoulder compared to swimming with no wetsuit. but, possibly more important, the wetsuit could be constructed from neoprene with an emphasis on flotation and durability rather than material stretch, since this proposed design would completely free the shoulder.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Feb 20, 17 17:38
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I've had an idea for wetsuit design for some time and I'm curious why such a design hasn't been created:

I'd like to make a wetsuit that has no neoprene in the shoulders. Rather, it would be a full sleeve/leg neoprene wetsuit, but connecting the arms to the chest/back/armpit/neck of the wetsuit would be a thin non-stretching material that easily buckles/wrinkles so there is absolutely no added stress on the shoulder. Yes, I've used top of the line, well fitting wetsuits and there is some added resistance in the shoulder compared to swimming with no wetsuit. but, possibly more important, the wetsuit could be constructed from neoprene with an emphasis on flotation and durability rather than material stretch, since this proposed design would completely free the shoulder.

I've often thought why one doesn't exist that is neoprene free in the arms. I'm a FOP swimmer and swim sleeveless, have noticed very little performance difference between my sleeveless and sleeved and much prefer to swim in the sleeveless. It feels better and I get the impression my stroke rate is naturally higher, even though my sleeved has very little resistance in the arms/shoulders.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [Omni-Slash] [ In reply to ]
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I'd stick with neoprene in the arms for flotation, which contributes to speed, even as a FOP myself. But, just having some material to connect the body and arms of the suit in the shoulder, even if only 2" wide, could open up some suit design possibilities and could be paradigm shifting. Existing wetsuit design reminds me of soft tail mtn suspension (or Lauf forks) whereas this idea removes the neoprene-created-spring and allows the shoulder to pivot freely.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I'd stick with neoprene in the arms for flotation, which contributes to speed, even as a FOP myself. But, just having some material to connect the body and arms of the suit in the shoulder, even if only 2" wide, could open up some suit design possibilities and could be paradigm shifting. Existing wetsuit design reminds me of soft tail mtn suspension (or Lauf forks) whereas this idea removes the neoprene-created-spring and allows the shoulder to pivot freely.


I swim 3800 in 52. Have both the responders on this post so far tried Roka Maverick X? I really can't feel ANY restriction in the shoulder on that suit and I have a very long reach that destroys lesser suits. (e.g. rips them apart in the armpit area)

That aside, I'd love to hear from some of the manufacturers' who post here if there is a reason this has not been done up to now.
Last edited by: Darren325: Feb 21, 17 4:18
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Probably because with a Roka suit there isn't any restriction in shoulder movement. Part of having good shoulder mobility is fit and making sure to put it on correctly by pulling the sleeves up to give extra shoulder room/flex and prevent water from leaking in.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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EnderWiggan wrote:
Probably because with a Roka suit there isn't any restriction in shoulder movement. Part of having good shoulder mobility is fit and making sure to put it on correctly by pulling the sleeves up to give extra shoulder room/flex and prevent water from leaking in.

I've tried Roka, along with other top suits, and yes I know how to put one on. It is ridiculous to say that there is -no- restriction. It may vary between different suits/fits, but there will always be some.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, these top suits are great, but moving on. I'm asking for thoughts outside the box, a paradigm shift - not a thread for boasting about the wetsuits we currently own or about the merit of fit.

In order for a suit to fit well and be flexible, it make compromises by using less durable and thinner neoprene, in addition to compromises throughout the suit all to free elastic impingement in the shoulder region of the suit. If a waterprooof strip of non-neoprene material were used, I think there is the possibility that designs could progress forward.

I mentioned this idea to a Blue Seventy rep for my tri store in 2010 and of course he said that the Helix was as good as it gets and that if it fits properly, nothing needs to change. I view any replies to this post talking about the merits today's suits in the same way I viewed that reps response: a complete lack in the understanding of the nature of innovation.

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Last edited by: milesthedog: Feb 21, 17 5:48
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Blueseventy made a suit a few years ago (around 5 years?) with very thin arms that were not neoprene. It looked like a lycra material to me. I rarely look at wetsuits so not sure if BS have changed the design.

http://www.intelligent-triathlon-training.com/blue-seventy.html
The Helix has laminated fabric panels on the forearms of the suit. This paper thin, water resistant, but fully permeable material, means that the triathlete can feel water against the inside of the forearm, but the second skin fit doesn't allow any seepage into the rest of the arm. This retains that vital "feel for the water" that swimmers place so much importance on.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [nickag] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they had this on their Reaction suits and one gen of the Helix, but this didn't address shoulder mobility and allowed water to pass through this non-neoprene material.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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I think if you look at the Synergy wetsuits and their super stretchy material, this could be a solution if utilized through the shoulders. It's 100x's of times more flexible than #39 or #40 rubber.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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These guys? http://synergywetsuits.com/products/wetsuits/

Interesting. But, I'm more interested in a paradigm shift - using the mtb reference I made earlier - not a more advanced carbon leaf spring, but a going to a pivot with bearings design.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. The guy who started the company came from Orca.

I get your paradigm shift, but I think it's going to take a couple of steps to get there due to cost.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting...Do you have any athletes that struggled in a Roka or Helix that has had success with synergy? I gave up on the full suits after I found the helix and maverick to be only marginally better in terms of severe shoulder fatigue after 300 yards.

They would test fine in the pool with sets of 100's but every time I tested in open water my shoulders would feel miserable after 300 yards.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm thinking the cost in today's wetsuits comes from trying to make the material more flexible. My suggested idea eliminates that need, possibly allowing for cheaper construction with no/less restriction than today's best wetsuits.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [mdgreene] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you have severe shoulder fatigue? I've never experienced this before, have you had shoulder injuries in the past?


mdgreene wrote:
Interesting...Do you have any athletes that struggled in a Roka or Helix that has had success with synergy? I gave up on the full suits after I found the helix and maverick to be only marginally better in terms of severe shoulder fatigue after 300 yards.

They would test fine in the pool with sets of 100's but every time I tested in open water my shoulders would feel miserable after 300 yards.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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It's not ridiculous, I'm saying if you have adequate shoulder strength it shouldn't bother you, and become forgettable after the first 100m.

SBRcoffee wrote:
EnderWiggan wrote:
Probably because with a Roka suit there isn't any restriction in shoulder movement. Part of having good shoulder mobility is fit and making sure to put it on correctly by pulling the sleeves up to give extra shoulder room/flex and prevent water from leaking in.

I've tried Roka, along with other top suits, and yes I know how to put one on. It is ridiculous to say that there is -no- restriction. It may vary between different suits/fits, but there will always be some.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I've had an idea for wetsuit design for some time and I'm curious why such a design hasn't been created:

I'd like to make a wetsuit that has no neoprene in the shoulders. Rather, it would be a full sleeve/leg neoprene wetsuit, but connecting the arms to the chest/back/armpit/neck of the wetsuit would be a thin non-stretching material that easily buckles/wrinkles so there is absolutely no added stress on the shoulder. Yes, I've used top of the line, well fitting wetsuits and there is some added resistance in the shoulder compared to swimming with no wetsuit. but, possibly more important, the wetsuit could be constructed from neoprene with an emphasis on flotation and durability rather than material stretch, since this proposed design would completely free the shoulder.

Get a DeSoto wetsuit and be done with it. Guaranteed no stress in the shoulders or anywhere in the upper body.
Why you people don't take a more serious look at their wetsuits is beyond me.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
I'm thinking the cost in today's wetsuits comes from trying to make the material more flexible. My suggested idea eliminates that need, possibly allowing for cheaper construction with no/less restriction than today's best wetsuits.

I wonder if it would affect streamlining, and if it would be a problem in very cold water.

I mean if you're going that route, why not get a sleeveless suit and add neoprene sleeves? (or a 2-piece suit, as posted above).
Last edited by: spudone: Feb 21, 17 10:05
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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That's the basic gist.

But, the gap would be small, waterproof and streamlined. So, warmth and streamlining shouldn't be an issue if designed well.

Again, I see this as equivalent to a a fictisious mtb full suspension industry that, to date, has only used softtail technology and hasn't evolved on to pivots... seems kind of silly when using that analogy. So, maybe it is silly.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [M~] [ In reply to ]
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With regard to this thread and the mtb analogy I've posited, that's like recommending a different softtail when I'm talking about a pivot design. kind of like Henry Ford's quip about a faster horse...

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]
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It's not black and white...A very small population of swimmers with a certain kind of stroke find it very difficult to find a full suit that works for them.

Most swimmers find it relatively easy to find a full suit that works for them like yourself. Maybe its an abnormally high recovery phase or maybe its a really long torso/short legs thing. who knows but after trying a ocra 3.8, blue seventy helix, roka maverick, and three other suits a decade ago, I know without a doubt that I feel my best swimming in open water with a good fitting long john and my times or perceived feeling are not even close in comparison. I literally can't swim 10 mins in one without stopping because of shoulder fatigue but can put a long john on and swim sub 29 HIM all day long.

I've never dealt with shin splints but that doesn't give me the experience or knowledge to tell someone with shin splits how to deal with it.
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
With regard to this thread and the mtb analogy I've posited, that's like recommending a different softtail when I'm talking about a pivot design. kind of like Henry Ford's quip about a faster horse...

I guess I must be missing something then. it seems to me your biggest complaint was with the stress in your shoulders?
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [M~] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not complaining about anything. And, I'm not saying that I personally have too much stress on my shoulders.

I'm suggesting wetsuit designs move away from trying to make material more flexible over the shoulder and eliminate neoprene in the shoulder material altogether. I'm suggesting further innovation.

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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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We did this already. We played with it, allowed people to swim in it and the overwhelming response was that it was shocking how much insulation you loose. You see, if you have a full sleeved wetsuit on, you are gong to expect it to be warm, with the fabric shoulders it is like swimming in a sleeveless with just Neoprene Sleeves. So we innovated the Extreme Sleeves shown below:





So if you buy our Speedvest and Bibjohn, then add these you will get the sensation, flexibility and warmth, as your idea, plus you get the additional flotation from the reach and glide phase, along with a large "paddle size" offered by having a larger surface area created by the rubber.

Emilio De Soto II
Maker of triathlon clothing, T1 Wetsuits, & Saddle Seat Pads and AXS since 1990
emilio@desotosport.com http://www.desotosport.com
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Re: Suggestion for New Wetsuit Design: No Neoprene in the Shoulders [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Are you sure that all the fatigue or resistance you are experiencing is coming from restrictive shoulders in the suit?

Jake

Get outside!
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