I've often thought why one doesn't exist that is neoprene free in the arms. I'm a FOP swimmer and swim sleeveless, have noticed very little performance difference between my sleeveless and sleeved and much prefer to swim in the sleeveless. It feels better and I get the impression my stroke rate is naturally higher, even though my sleeved has very little resistance in the arms/shoulders.

I'd stick with neoprene in the arms for flotation, which contributes to speed, even as a FOP myself. But, just having some material to connect the body and arms of the suit in the shoulder, even if only 2" wide, could open up some suit design possibilities and could be paradigm shifting. Existing wetsuit design reminds me of soft tail mtn suspension (or Lauf forks) whereas this idea removes the neoprene-created-spring and allows the shoulder to pivot freely.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I swim 3800 in 52. Have both the responders on this post so far tried Roka Maverick X? I really can't feel ANY restriction in the shoulder on that suit and I have a very long reach that destroys lesser suits. (e.g. rips them apart in the armpit area)

That aside, I'd love to hear from some of the manufacturers' who post here if there is a reason this has not been done up to now.

Probably because with a Roka suit there isn't any restriction in shoulder movement. Part of having good shoulder mobility is fit and making sure to put it on correctly by pulling the sleeves up to give extra shoulder room/flex and prevent water from leaking in.

I've tried Roka, along with other top suits, and yes I know how to put one on. It is ridiculous to say that there is -no- restriction. It may vary between different suits/fits, but there will always be some.

Yes, these top suits are great, but moving on. I'm asking for thoughts outside the box, a paradigm shift - not a thread for boasting about the wetsuits we currently own or about the merit of fit.

In order for a suit to fit well and be flexible, it make compromises by using less durable and thinner neoprene, in addition to compromises throughout the suit all to free elastic impingement in the shoulder region of the suit. If a waterprooof strip of non-neoprene material were used, I think there is the possibility that designs could progress forward.

I mentioned this idea to a Blue Seventy rep for my tri store in 2010 and of course he said that the Helix was as good as it gets and that if it fits properly, nothing needs to change. I view any replies to this post talking about the merits today's suits in the same way I viewed that reps response: a complete lack in the understanding of the nature of innovation.

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Blueseventy made a suit a few years ago (around 5 years?) with very thin arms that were not neoprene. It looked like a lycra material to me. I rarely look at wetsuits so not sure if BS have changed the design.

http://www.intelligent-triathlon-training.com/blue-seventy.html
The Helix has laminated fabric panels on the forearms of the suit. This paper thin, water resistant, but fully permeable material, means that the triathlete can feel water against the inside of the forearm, but the second skin fit doesn't allow any seepage into the rest of the arm. This retains that vital "feel for the water" that swimmers place so much importance on.

Yes, they had this on their Reaction suits and one gen of the Helix, but this didn't address shoulder mobility and allowed water to pass through this non-neoprene material.

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I think if you look at the Synergy wetsuits and their super stretchy material, this could be a solution if utilized through the shoulders. It's 100x's of times more flexible than #39 or #40 rubber.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

These guys? http://synergywetsuits.com/products/wetsuits/

Interesting. But, I'm more interested in a paradigm shift - using the mtb reference I made earlier - not a more advanced carbon leaf spring, but a going to a pivot with bearings design.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Yes. The guy who started the company came from Orca.

I get your paradigm shift, but I think it's going to take a couple of steps to get there due to cost.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Interesting...Do you have any athletes that struggled in a Roka or Helix that has had success with synergy? I gave up on the full suits after I found the helix and maverick to be only marginally better in terms of severe shoulder fatigue after 300 yards.

They would test fine in the pool with sets of 100's but every time I tested in open water my shoulders would feel miserable after 300 yards.

I'm thinking the cost in today's wetsuits comes from trying to make the material more flexible. My suggested idea eliminates that need, possibly allowing for cheaper construction with no/less restriction than today's best wetsuits.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Why do you have severe shoulder fatigue? I've never experienced this before, have you had shoulder injuries in the past?

It's not ridiculous, I'm saying if you have adequate shoulder strength it shouldn't bother you, and become forgettable after the first 100m.

Get a DeSoto wetsuit and be done with it. Guaranteed no stress in the shoulders or anywhere in the upper body.
Why you people don't take a more serious look at their wetsuits is beyond me.

I wonder if it would affect streamlining, and if it would be a problem in very cold water.

I mean if you're going that route, why not get a sleeveless suit and add neoprene sleeves? (or a 2-piece suit, as posted above).

That's the basic gist.

But, the gap would be small, waterproof and streamlined. So, warmth and streamlining shouldn't be an issue if designed well.

Again, I see this as equivalent to a a fictisious mtb full suspension industry that, to date, has only used softtail technology and hasn't evolved on to pivots... seems kind of silly when using that analogy. So, maybe it is silly.

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With regard to this thread and the mtb analogy I've posited, that's like recommending a different softtail when I'm talking about a pivot design. kind of like Henry Ford's quip about a faster horse...

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

It's not black and white...A very small population of swimmers with a certain kind of stroke find it very difficult to find a full suit that works for them.

Most swimmers find it relatively easy to find a full suit that works for them like yourself. Maybe its an abnormally high recovery phase or maybe its a really long torso/short legs thing. who knows but after trying a ocra 3.8, blue seventy helix, roka maverick, and three other suits a decade ago, I know without a doubt that I feel my best swimming in open water with a good fitting long john and my times or perceived feeling are not even close in comparison. I literally can't swim 10 mins in one without stopping because of shoulder fatigue but can put a long john on and swim sub 29 HIM all day long.

I've never dealt with shin splints but that doesn't give me the experience or knowledge to tell someone with shin splits how to deal with it.

I guess I must be missing something then. it seems to me your biggest complaint was with the stress in your shoulders?

I'm not complaining about anything. And, I'm not saying that I personally have too much stress on my shoulders.

I'm suggesting wetsuit designs move away from trying to make material more flexible over the shoulder and eliminate neoprene in the shoulder material altogether. I'm suggesting further innovation.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

We did this already. We played with it, allowed people to swim in it and the overwhelming response was that it was shocking how much insulation you loose. You see, if you have a full sleeved wetsuit on, you are gong to expect it to be warm, with the fabric shoulders it is like swimming in a sleeveless with just Neoprene Sleeves. So we innovated the Extreme Sleeves shown below:





So if you buy our Speedvest and Bibjohn, then add these you will get the sensation, flexibility and warmth, as your idea, plus you get the additional flotation from the reach and glide phase, along with a large "paddle size" offered by having a larger surface area created by the rubber.

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Emilio De Soto II
Maker of triathlon clothing, T1 Wetsuits, & Saddle Seat Pads and AXS since 1990
emilio@desotosport.com http://www.desotosport.com

Are you sure that all the fatigue or resistance you are experiencing is coming from restrictive shoulders in the suit?

Jake

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Get outside!

Thanks for the feedback

Thanks Jakers - Never said I was having fatigue or too much resistance ... (am I sure my horse isn't too slow? kidding)

Thanks Emelio - if the material was not mere cloth and if it was only 1" in width, I'd wonder if this could be experimented with to the point that best loss is not noticeable and it is more flexible.... your sleeve idea is nice, but leaves about 5-6" of bare shoulder exposed, as you're aware

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I like your idea of a more flexible shoulder by including a strip of alternate material, but I foresee an issue with bonding/attaching the material to the neoprene in the arm and torso. Plus, the material would need to be waterproof and stretchy.
What would you think of having the wetsuit designed so the arms are pointed up rather than down by the side? If not up, maybe a more neutral position than straight down.

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Oui, mais pas de femme toute de suite (yes, but I am not ready for a woman straight away) -Stephen Roche's reply when asked whether he was okay after collapsing at the finish in the La Plagne stage of the 1987 Tour

Thanks for the feedback

DeSoto and Roma have done the arms up thing...

I'm not sure the material would need flexibility, waterproofness is a given, and attaching non neoprene materials to neoprene has been done extensively

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I tested a Synergy when I did my wet suit testing and found it to be pretty fast. I've had some athletes swim in it over the years. I think it's a suit that better for those with a little more upper body size vs thin lightly muscled.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

But who was testing it? "Average" triathletes? Or swimmers? I don't care about insulation at all - the only reason I wear a wetsuit is because it's considered faster than not wearing one, and I don't want to concede an advantage to my competitors. As long as the water temp is above 60, I'm not looking for insulation. I want a suit with ZERO shoulder restriction. I'm not sure that exists. As a FOP swimmer with no kick whatsoever and a completely shoulder-driven stroke, all I want out of a wetsuit is flexibility in the shoulders. For that reason I'd jump on a suit without neoprene in the sleeves. I pretty much stopped doing triathlons because of this issue (now mostly do open water sans wetsuit).

I like the extreme sleeves concept, but I don't like the idea of having to keep track of extra gear in a race. I would worry about getting them off or losing them or whatever. That said, I haven't tried them. Maybe I will give them a go this summer.

if you simply put fabric in the shoulder area, but have fabric attaching it to neoprene sleeves, i think you'd have a terrific problem with rips in the seams as you tried to take the wetsuit off, as well as when you put it on.

i don't have particularly strong shoulders, and when i put a wetsuit on, even for the first time in a season, and i swim 1500 meters in it, i don't suffer from any shoulder restriction.

i think if your wetsuit fits, you'll have the same good experience. but if you really want to follow the line of reasoning you're pursuing, and you work and work and work and spend a year thinking and working, and morphing your design as you let your design follow your trial and error, i do think you'll eventually just end up with a de soto t1.

it's not that i think a t1 is necessary for shoulder mobility, just that if you're looking for ultimate shoulder mobility, damn everything else, that's where you end up.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Good point on the entry and exit being an issue.

But with regard to your claim that you have no restriction whatsoever in the shoulders - if this were the case, that would mean that there is absolutely no need to innovate any further with regard to neoprene materials that are more flexible. It sounds like you're suggesting that today's suits are the pinnacle and as long as you have the right fit, no more innovation needs to take place, and if you need more shoulder mobility, go with a T1.

I'm not suggesting my idea is that innovation, but I can't believe there won't continue to be innovation with regard to wetsuit design, and I can't believe that innovation won't yield better shoulder mobility in full sleeve suits.

(Note: I keep getting responses alluding to my personal issues with shoulder mobility when I've made no such claims - I'm content using a 2010 Helix! And would personally be just fine never racing in anything more flexible than that.... but suits have gotten better, and they will continue to improve)

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I'm not sure if you were actually responding to me, but as you replied to my post, I think you are. Boasting? I really don't know what you are talking about in terms of shoulder restriction in a Maverick X...basic question was have you tried it? If you want to innovate, you should start with the understanding the best examples of the status quo. (not limited to one suit...you should understand all the solutions put forward thus far.) Thus, a reasonable question to ask someone who is arguing for more innovation! I don't make wetsuits and don't have a stake in the status quo...if someone were to come up with a dramatically improved design, I would benefit too. Establishing a baseline for comparison is not boasting.

Two knowledgeable people have already responded to this thread indicating the difficulties with your proposed innovation. Blue Seventy seems to have said the same thing.

Since you are the expert on innovation here and the one who doesn't exhibit "a complete lack in the understanding of the nature of innovation," I suggest you put action behind your words..THAT is what innovators do. It really amazes me that the tone would get nasty about such an innocuous post as mine. I sincerely hope that you are hard a work at developing your ideas about wetsuits rather than waiting for all the complacent people who currently produce the most innovative wetsuits on the market.

I'm confident that after prodding wetsuit companies for at least 7 years to shake off their insistence on neoprene in the shoulders that you have the technology, the knowledge of how to cut wetsuit patterns, the ability to innovate new textiles and chemical applications, and business capital that you are willing to risk to bring your ideas to life. "Innovation" is really easy when it amounts to "companies always do X and insist that it is the cutting edge of progress, but really, doing Y would be so much better." Please, sincerely, get out there and do Y. If it works, you'll be successful.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not an expert on innovation (though my research does touch on creativity yielding innovation in business environments) and I'm not in the wetsuit business, so while you've done a great job of outlining how one would proceed with beginning with an innovative idea, I won't be able to utilize that process.

I wasn't responding directly to you, but to the general gist of responses recommending trying today's top suits with the implication that today's top suits, if well fitting, address any and all issues shoulder flexibility. I have tried today's top suits and I really like them, and if wetsuit technology never advanced, I'd personally be content. But, I didn't start a post about me or my personal issues with wetsuits (which are non-existent); I started a thread to address the crux in wetsuit design with regard to material cost and design goals: shoulder flexibility. If this issue had been addressed, then we could be pretty sure that there would never be a better and greater suit created in the future. But we know that better suits will be created. So what's the harm in asking about future designs? And what's the harm in pointing out that responses suggesting to use today's available technology and be content with it, that those responses choose to ignore the inevitability of better and greater suits being designed? I'm sorry that rubbed you the wrong way, but more so, and sincerely, I do recognize that my tone, which truly was in jest, rubbed you the wrong way and I wouldn't want to upset you or make you think I was attacking you.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Fair play milesthedog

I think we agree...

One last point of the innovation front...With the huge costs of R&D, small market, and large inventory costs (e.g. having to manufacture and stock so many different sizes), the wetsuit market is not an easy get rich quick scheme and we are probably lucky we have as much competition as we do...And you are right...Five to ten years from now I hope to look at the best of today's suits and think...What were we thinking when we thought that was fast!

I really like the idea. The original B70 Helix was marketed around that blue section of neoprene 'decoupling' the arms and this just seems like a logical evolution of that.

Having read the whole thread I'm still unsure as to why it hasn't been done already?!

I wonder if the innovation couldn't be something as simple as, make the shoulders just slightly baggy. Leave the neoprene/rubber there, but just don't make it so snug. That would be warm, water reisistant and buckle as you mention, all without really compromising the strength of the suit.

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Ian

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

But then people would bitch they were 1/2 second per 100 slower. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

All of this wetsuit banter has me pulling fabric out of boxes and cutting up wetsuits and anything else I can find.... lots of interesting ideas here.
Always takes me a while to get the thoughts out of my head and into a suit...

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Karen ST Concierge

would love to see some stuff as you progress!

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