I was going to do the half next year. Theres two races down that I had planned.

Come to Mountains to Main Street! I didn't race this year but am psyched to race there next year and hoping it can build on its success from the first year.

Where's the evidence? Who has insider knowledge?

That being said, if the "city jacked up the price" why did they not pull both races?

Is it possible the WTC asked for some changes (more/different road closures) in which case a higher price for permits (not that we have established that) would be justified?

Also, it's not just Wilmington. It's Wrightsville Beach... NCDOT... New Hanover and Pender Counties. Bladen and Sampson Counties become non-factors now if there's not a full.

The full peaked at ~700 starters in 2013 and was off to roughly 500 in 2015. Not yet what I would have called a steady decline but certainly a disturbing trend, while the half had fairly "choppy" numbers of 800-1000. The statement from Bill Scott (Setup) after the sale basically said they (he and Dick Jones with the YMCA) thought the event had peaked, and they didn't think they could withstand another competing Mdot, which is what WTC was threatening in Hilton Head.

That said, just looking at participation numbers, B2B was in much better shape than Vineman.

WTC's business moves are predatory and monopolistic, and I think lately that has taken precedence over providing a great athlete experience. Just need to make sure the lemmings keep lining up to pay their $750, and the first step is making sure that's the only way to do the distance.

Setup should do a full distance at White Lake.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

But would it work? Raleigh has really cut into the White Lake Half in the spring.

I don't know. But there is a lot of anti WTC sentiment right now. And, there may be non compete clauses in place. Who knows.

But, I would think now would be the time to try it and see. I would think it have to be late Sept or even the first weekend of Oct. It would have to be 2 two loops of swim bike & run. It would have to be marketed as bare bones (like no change tents. I don't think there is room). Also, it would have to be bargain price. More of a grass roots type of race. With special finisher swag along the lines of the B2B pajama pants or the belt buckles that ultra marathons give out. Maybe a nice beer mug. Not a pint glass, but a really nice mug with a handle. Just something different than a medal or something that has been done before. And you'd probably have to have a limited time cut off. Lighting that place would probably be pretty costly.

To differentiate from WTC, and draw more numbers, you'd want to offer aquabike & relays.

Lots of things to think about. I'm no RD, so I could be way off base.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Definitely how I'm feeling now. WTC seems to be making a lot of predatory and monopolistic moves right now as someone else pointed out. Obviously it's a business but just snatching up races and dropping them and making sure you're the only gig in town is really offensive. I just don't know that the masses of triathletes just checking off the ironman bucket list item care or are even aware of this at this point. they just want to do an ironman.

It is offensive. Due to the way this was handled, I'm going to replace one of my WTC races next year with a few local races. My own personal protest. I'll be sure to let WTC know, too.

As for the full distance at White Lake, that'd be tough, but doable. White Lake is small, though. I'm not sure it could support a whole bunch of athletes spending multiple nights there. Maybe I'm wrong.

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I don't know. But there is a lot of anti WTC sentiment right now.

.[/quote]
when is there not?

I don't know. But there is a lot of anti WTC sentiment right now.

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when is there not?[/quote]

Could just be my own personal perception but it just seems the last couple of years WTC has really upped it's gobbling up of other events.

I'm pretty new to the sport (3.5 years in the sport) and before last year I was a little ignorant of other half and full distance triathlons outside of Ironman. I've done a bunch of local sprint and Olympic distances up to this point. Done 3 WTC HIMs. Doing IM Chattanooga next year. But definitely eyeing more non-WTC events in the future. Rev3 Williamsburg next year (assuming they're still around). Year after that will be looking at Mountains to Main Street and Toughman SC. Long term I was already planning on doing one Ironman and then sticking to HIM or shorter distances. I've enjoyed the Ironman events but I don't need them to be the only events I go to.

Not sure what sort of non-compete would actually affect White Lake. If B2B was owned by the YMCA and not Setup, I wouldn't think that would affect them. And if it did, wouldn't the half-distance races at White Lake have been in play otherwise? (including if it was because of Bladen County's involvement)

As for room in transition, they've had 900 for their half before. Not sure what kind of numbers you think they should try for, but I think you could have a changing tent, and STILL have room for enough athletes to overwhelm all nearby lodging. Remember, when it was 900, it was a big local draw (so many not using lodging), and you had clubs stacking multiple people in cabins/dorm rooms on the FFA site.

Double-looping the bike is definitely tricky, because you would trap any spectators/volunteers that were lucky enough to park at the race site.

It's a decent venue for a half, but a tricky one for a full. Though you can't beat it at shorter distances.

Regarding non competes:

1. like I originally said "Who knows"??? But IIRC, the ownership of B2B was split between the Wilmington YMCA & Set Up Events but the YMCA held the majority percentage so Set Up had some say, but ultimately didn't have enough power to overrule any decision the YMCA Board of Directors made.

2. WTC could have demanded that SetUp not do a full distance within X miles for Y years. And White Lake is not that far from Wilmington. I've had to go to court in the state of NC to contest a non compete in the past, so I know you have to make them specific to hold up to a challenge. I'm sure WTC lawyers know how to structure a non compete to withstand a challenge.

Regarding parking:

Another one of those details that would have to be thought out. Again, this would have to be a grass roots, no frills kind of race. I don't see it as appealing to the first timer or the bucket lister. Someone who wanted to bring grandma & the kids wouldn't be drawn to this race. Anyone who signs up would have to be cool with the fact of limited crowds. I would say you'd have to restrict parking to outside the facility.

ETA: I'm proposing this idea basically out of raw emotion. I LOVE racing at White Lake!!! But, I can drive there in about an hour and a half. And I have a free place to stay whenever I want. I've race every distance that has been offered at White Lake: sprint, international, half (5x) & even the double sprint/formula 1 style they had 1 time. And I'm signed up for White Lake Half #6 for April 2017.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Cannot see White Lake being a suitable place to host an IM or 140.6 distance race with even 200 participants. Basically public infrastructure and lodging would not be suitable. Raced the WL half since the first year they had it (I think it was 2000 or so, and about 7 other times). White Lake is a nice race venue if you are looking for a quaint rural location. Cannot see as a draw for the IM crowd, or how it could be economically feasible for a non branded IM race to work with a limited draw of 200 participants or less.

Why not? How many people did the spring 1/2 and Int. (held on the same day), last year?

I would have to agree with Rockfish on his assessment. Went to White Lake as a kid and have done multiple races (sprint, international and the half) there as an adult. There is not enough infrastructure there for an IM length event. The run options are limited at best and I do not like running along 701 in daylight much less at night. Wish it would work.

I looked it up.......431 people did the Int. and half, last year (same day). If you could close one lane of traffic on the loop.......there's your run lane.

I understand but still would be tough to substain a full distance triathlon with 450 people without a bunch of other races going on. White Lake and Bladin county most likely does not have enough law enforcement to support and event of that time length.

The course could likely could get worked out, may not be optimal but a three loop run would work. Where I see the shortfall is in two primary areas 1) municipal support (ambulance / police) and 2) volunteers. Additionally lodging would be pressed. .

The municipalities in the area small. The town of white lake has around 700 residents. Bladen county has 34,000 residents. The infrastructure to support a race which would have demands starting at 5 am and then go through almost 1 am would be hard pressed to be absorbed. For example, Bladen county has 7 patrol officers. The support needed for the half's pressed this I think a full would be too much to expect of the local governments.

When the half im put on by set up peaked with 700+ participants on a Saturday half IM the volunteers were thin. The race was helped with several people doing the sprint on the Sunday volunteering on Saturday. Bill Scott used to send emails almost begging people to volunteer offering a variety of perks. Even with an IM of say 300-400 people - the hours and demand of volunteers would be stretched to say the least.

For lodging the options supported numbers for participants in the 600+ range. This included a good number who tent camped (myself included). I would guess less people would be interested in tent camping when doing an IM. Also for an IM, you get more people traveling with the participants. While racers may be ok with staying in modest accommodations, i would guess the support group would be less likely when considering the demographics of your average IM participant.

I am all for non IM branded races, but I think there would be other areas that could better support a race outside of White Lake. Again not a knock on White Lake, if I were looking to do a half white lake would be on the short list.

Best,
GS

No more 140.6 in ILM?

Turd No Like

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

I am honored to have attended the final official unofficial b2b practice swim.....RIP