Tubulars are up to a couple of pounds lighter than clinchers. Is that data?

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Geoffrey Nenninger

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html

I have an Ergomo Pro. I've damaged my 404's, but when I get them back from ZIPP I'd like to do some tests on my own to see if the difference is that much. Who knows. Since I had to use my training wheels (ksyriums), I raced CDA on a fresh set of michelin pro2 race's because of the data tables on the bottom of that linked page. - E

Something I would like to see address is how rolling resistance and aerodynamics trade off. There was a test done recently on a few tires showing that a deda clincher tire has by far the least rolling resistance of any tire. But that tire is 27mm wide. If you compare 23mm tires, some of the clinchers and tubulars are exactly the same.

So a wide tire has better rolling resistance, but not as good aerodynamics. Where is the trade off? A 25mm tire? From what I've read of Josh at zipp's posts, using a tire that is wider than the rim 'significantly' impacts aerodynamics. By how much? What's the comparison?

here we go again!

Tubulars flat less often then clinchers. Races cost of lot of money these days. If you flat, you've just lost time to your rivals. With tubulars you stand a better chance of not flatting -- not to mention that they ride/feel better and are lighter. If I was rich enough I would train on tubualrs as well. Oh, and if you're bombing a decent at high speed with clinchers and flat, it could be a catastrophic crash. With tubulars, the wheel stays glued to the rim and you can ride it out until you stop. Been there, done that. So, tubulars are safer too.

Let's review... Tubulars:

* Have less flats

* Have a better ride

* Are lighter than clinchers

* Are safer than clinchers

~ AB ~

Ignoring for a second the ridiculous posts about clinchers killing you, etc...

I have a set of 404 Clinchers on a PT (I had 404 tubulars on a PT, and got rid of them).

Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I'd get the 808 clinchers. The extra weight as compared to the 404's is inconsequential on all but the absolute steepest climbs, and the 808 front I use on my TT bike is way better than I expected in a cross wind.

While I've done a ton of field testing w/both wheels, I've also done a lot of our local tues and thursday training races w/power files on both sets of wheels. On average, it comes out to about 10-15 watts less for the clinchers--and the training races are not flat!
(Michelin Pro 2 race vs. Vittoria KS/Mastic One).

Very unscientific, but when comparing average speeds and power, the trend is pretty obvious.....

As far as the PT SL vs. the Ergomo, I wouldn't want to speculate as I have no experience w/the new Ergomo--but it seems promising.

Huh?...try more like, at most 1 lb.


In a word...no.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Not to be picky or anything, but I think you are embellishing slightly...the Deda tire measured at 24mm wide.


Look again.

Aah, never mind...who am I kidding? You're right...It's all just a bunch of hooey.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Run away! Run away! They'll KILL you, they will!!!!

Instant "yardsale". It's absolutely unavoidable.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Flanny,

Review all the data and info you can Google...then use your finely honed reasoning skills to make your own judgement.

From what you say, it sounds like you already have some personal experience to guide you as well. Make a hypothesis and test it.

It's not "data", but I hope it helps.

Oh yeah...you just HAD to open up this can of worms again, huh? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Why? Because they're made with a little bit of magic? Seriously, why?

One of the main reasons is that clinchers can pinch flat. If they hit a pothole, etc. the tube gets pinched against the rim and goes flat. With a tubular, there is no tube so they cannot pinch flat.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

I totally agree, tubulars are just as prone to flatting as a clincher. If you've ever patched a tubie and got to feel the thickness of the casing, it's awfully darn close to the same thickness as a clincher. So how could it be better against avoiding a flat? -E

Wow. Who knew?

I did!

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Geoffrey Nenninger

I'll give you one chance: you are kidding when you say that tubulars have no tube, right?

That's what I was thinking!!

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

I have never pinch flatted a clincher. Just pump up your tires before you ride (I often will even go a few days) and it won't happen.

Not a tube like a clincher has! Did you honestly not know that tubulars are not prone to pinch flats like clinchers are?

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Geoffrey Nenninger

Why I race tubulars:
1) they cannot pinch flat, as there is no rim to pinch the tube against.

2) they can safely be ridden in the event of a flat, so that if you are, for example, one or two miles from transition, you can ride it in.

3) assuming you practice, I think it is faster to change a tubular than a clincher

4) depending on which wheels you use, there can be an aerodynamic advantage with tubulars. Toroidal rims such as those seen on the Bontrager Aeolus, Zipp 404 and 808, and Hed Stinger 60 & 90 make this advantage negligible. But for some wheels, this can still be a factor.

5) I am a bit sentimental, and I personally just love the "feel" of tubulars. This is totally personal.

I use Vittoria Mastik'One glue, which has been shown to be most effective for gluing on carbon rims. I also pay a lot of money for Dugast tubulars, which are extraordinarily supple and have a Crr that is comparable to the best clinchers. It may be better, but for all practical purposes, I assume it is merely equivalent.

Hope that helps with your decision. I do NOT race on tubulars because I think they are faster or because I think they are better made.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

So what's the little black tube-like thing on the inside of the sewed-up casing in tubular tires?

Well I have and I pump my tires up before every ride as well. Try hitting a pothole at 45mph in a paceline! 2 flats in a spit-second!

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Geoffrey Nenninger

If you hit a properly inflated clincher into a pothole, etc. hard enough to cause it to flat, you've got bigger problems - like rim damage. Hammering your tubular wheel that hard will mess it up too. You can flat by slamming a tubular through a pothole too.

Also, a tubular is a casing around a tube. Hence the name tubular. They have no beads, perhaps that's what you meant.

So, since "one of the main reasons" didn't pan out, what are the other reasons?

that would be a tubular tube as opposed to a clincher tube

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

For one, tubular tires conform to road debris and road imperfections so they flat less often. Thus, a tubular tire CANNOT have a pinch flat. Second, you can blow the tire off a clincher rim, but you can't blow a tubular tire off a properly glued rim.

Did I mention how much better they ride?

~ AB ~

They have exactly tubes like clinchers have. Did you honestly think that the sewing and the base tape make a perfect seal, and that the valve (just like clinchers have) is part of the casing? The reasons that tubulars don't pinch flat as often as do clinchers is because a) the tubular rim does not have a bead, and 2) tubulars have latex tubes more commonly than do clinchers.

Sir, you are doing damage to whatever reputation you might have.

Oh boy!

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

It's actually just #1. A pinch flat, by definition, is the tube getting pinched between the bead and the tire, something which is impossible on a tubular.

You could not pinch flat a tubular with a butyl tube, of which there are many, most notably Continental. Nor is a clincher with a latex tube less likely to pinch; in fact, a clincher with latex tube may even be more likely since the tubes are more fragile.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

If you watch Paris-Roubaix, you'll see that tubulars do indeed pinch flat. Often.

Come on, you know there's a rim under there. When the tire is compressed enough (say, by the edge of a cobblestone), it will be wider than the width of the rim, so the tube gets pinched between the cobble and tire on one side, and the tire and rim edge on the other. Latex tubes, often found in tubular tires, are more resistant to pinching than are butyl tubes, but they are not impervious.

People pay me to coach them, not to tell them about the tube that comes sewn inside a tubular tire. If the person who initially asked about the reason tubulars don't get as many flats was asking the question in the first place, I would assume he/she wouldn't want to be bored by a discussion of the fact that while tubulars do have a tube it is sort of hidden by being sewn inside the tire. They get less pinch flats. That's all I'm saying! Sorry if I came across as being a jerk, it wasn't meant to be in that tone.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

Are you implying that somehow a clincher does not conform to the road?

The coefficient of rolling resistance is defined by how easily, in quantitative terms, a tire deforms to the road and imperfections. Since a premium clincher has a lower Crr than a premium tubular, it is actually clinchers that deform to the road more easily.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I didn't dispute any touchy feely "how much better they ride". Mention it a thousand times.

I asked why tubulars "flat less".

As I said above, if you properly inflate your clinchers, they will not pinch flat. And if you jam into a pothole hard enough to blow out a clincher, you would have done the same to the tubular. The edge of the pothole will be what blows it, not the rim/bead interface.

what is the difference? both are round, black, inflatable, butyl (alright, sometimes latex) but aren't they the same? It wasn't me who said a tubular had no tube - E

I think that is a 'blow-out.' (not sure about the technical term so please forgive me if I am wrong). A 'pinch-flat' is the tube getting pinched by the rim/tire.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

I was being sarcastic.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

From the wreck.bikes.tech FAQ entry on snakebites (emphasis added):

Another reason could be the ability to inflate a tubular to a higher psi than a clincher. Most clinchers are recommended at ~120 psi, while many tubulars can be inflated to ~150.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

I asked. And you provided erroneous information. Correct information is not boring. And "sort of hidden"?? Seriously? That's like saying the tube in a clincher is sort of hidden between the rim, bead, and tire. A tubular has a tube. And they may get less pinch flats than underinflated clinchers, but both types of tires, properly used, will flat about the same amount.

Okay, okay. I feel that we are not getting into the exceptions to the rule, rather than what is at the heart of the matter. Paris Roubaix is an exception because of the width of the tires used and the very low pressures required. But, you are correct, it is technically possible to pinch a tubular.

I will disagree with latex tubes being less susceptible to pinching. They are more supple, but they are also much more fragile. I am not sure there is necessarily a definitive answer to that one.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

With your two bare hands, can you show me the tube in an unmounted tubular tire? Could you show me the tube in an unmounted clincher tire? With the tubular, you'd say "it's inside, sewn in" like maybe it is sort of hidden to the eye? And I apologized for sounding like a jerk in my earlier post as it was not what I intended.

The important part of my original response was the reduced pinch flats.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

So Geoffrey is no mechanic, who cares, its only your tire!

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Yeah, ask any of the mechanics at shops I've worked at... I've never claimed to be a wrench!

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Geoffrey Nenninger

Do you have any data on this? Personally, I've never seen any test data on a Dugast...

Remember, the OP asked for data ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Absolutely! And we all know that no matter the surface, the higher the pressure the better!

I pump my Tufos up to well over 200 psi so I can fly!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

if you race in my AG, please race on Tufo's at 200psi and mounted with tape.

Thank you.

Kurt

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

I've never seen any either. It's also tough for me to do too much comparison of wattage, since I have new wheels as well, so I can't compare TT runs on my course effectively. One of these days, I might get around to doing a RR test, but I'm satisfied with my speed/wattage ratio right now, so I don't feel particularly compelled to do one for the rest of the world...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

And...despite the OPs request for actual DATA, you've shown nothing to back up this false assertion.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The only reason I race TT and Triathlons on Tubbies is because you can not only ride, but can hammer the last few miles out on a flat rear tubbie. And I have done so on three occasions. One in a prologue TT in a stage race where I would have not finished on the podium with clinchers. If would have had clinchers in the TT no way I would have gotten second in the stage at 3 sec back.
Two, I won ou right the Alexandria Sprint Triathlon 1985 ish with a flat tire in the last two miles. Tri overall wins were pretty few and far between for me so I was plenty happy to have that one,
Three, I won my age group in the Hawaii state TT with a flat tire for the last 2 ish miles. Clinchers are somewhat rideable, but I can still go 22ish mph with a flat rear tubbie on a straight road.
I can't mention the number of flats with sewups in cyclocross where the guy rides it flat to the pits for a bike change, and the clincher guys tire rolls off the rim and he runs the bike in a mile or so on his back in the mud. You see that every time at the big cyclocross races. Don't see any advantage ever with clinchers in cyclocross.

Even better...I race on them mounted to 32 spoke, box section rims! Nothing...and I mean nothing is faster! Especially when the wind comes from the side...and when is the wind EVER just from straight ahead. Don't believe me, just take a look at Nimble's "Side-on Aerodynamics" chart.

http://www.nimble.net/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

its tought to get real data, because I could compare my Mavic Open Pro with PT Pro and Clinchers to my Tubbie 404 with PT SL and tubulars, but that gives waaaay too many variables. Perhaps if someone out there has a clincher 404 with PT SL and lives near me then we could meet up and run a test, but unless someone has done a test with the "same" wheel, then there is so much speculation.

FWIW, I don't care too much about the whole pinch flat argument or the flatting 2 miles from transition argument.

perfect, thanks for complying with my request...

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http://www.pbmcoaching.com
USA Triathlon Level 3 Elite Coach
USA Cycling Level 1 Elite Coach

Actually, my first response was the weight issue. Zipp 404 Clincher with a GP 4000 is going to weigh about 522 grams MORE than a Zipp 404 Tubular with Competition 22's. That is a little more than pound, which falls in line with my original assertion that UP TO a couple of pounds could be saved with tubulars. SO, because I am a weight weenie, for me it is weight issue, and now I've provided DATA to back it up.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

Wow...I didn't realize tubulars were still rideable at over 20 mph when they were flat. I knew they were rideable, but I assumed it would be something like 10-12 mph...

I got a flat on my 404 tubular wheel the day before the ITU race in Honolulu last month. I would not have been able to ride it at 20+mph (maybe in a race I'd have thrown caution to the wind) but I ended up walking it as even at 10-12 mph it felt like I would have damaged my rim.

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Geoffrey Nenninger

And I've watched a teammate ride a flat FRONT clincher at speeds of over 20mph with little difficulty. He was even riding down a twisty descent at the time...it was squirrelly, sure...but so would a flat tubie be as well.

Just thought I'd add a conflicting anecdote...BTW, the plural of anecdote is NOT data. ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Actually, my first response was the weight issue. Zipp 404 Clincher with a GP 4000 is going to weigh about 522 grams MORE than a Zipp 404 Tubular with Competition 22's

What?

ZIPP 404 clincher rear, 884 continetal gp4000 204g, continental 60mm stem tube 90g

ZIPP 404 tubular rear, 682, continental competition tubular 275g.

Difference 221 grams

Anything else?

The study noted that the rolling resistance improved significantly for the Tufo tires with inflation pressures above 140psi, but failed to quantify it and include it in the table.

Also, the comfort level was not really quantified as it was based solely on inflation pressure. Certainly some tires are more comfortable than others at any given pressure.

Also notice that the tubular tires that performed the best within the parameters of the test were those inflated closer to their maximum inflation values.

Finally,

If we're going to use tubulars--we should run them at higher pressures.

[reply] You see that every time at the big cyclocross races. Don't see any advantage ever with clinchers in cyclocross.[/reply]
I've rolled a tubular in cyclocross - even with the best glue job, the low pressure is the killer on some rim/tire combinations.
The advantages of clinchers for non pros -
- you never again have to smell or cleanup tubular glue, or have to waste a nearly new tire/glue job due to a mishap with the tire on one of the first rides
- if you are a lightweight, you don't need tubulars to avoid pinch flats
- you don't need to own multiple sets of wheels and tires for different course conditions, just different tires.

I am note sure about this but can you even get a 19m clincher for your front wheel? I run a Conti Competition 19 up front and 22 in back based on recommendations from Hed. They told me the improved aerodynamics of the 19 outweigh the higher RR for a front wheel. Makes sense when you consider the wheel rim is around 19 as well.

As for data, I have never flatted on a tubular during a race after 12 years of racing. I will admit I have not submitted this for peer review yet…

Why do you think you can't use your wheels to test this out? To make an "apples to apples" comparison tirewise, throw an Open Corsa on that Open Pro and go find yourself a hill to climb. The aerodynamics of the rear wheel difference will be extremely miniscule under that condition. If you're worried about the weight difference, just add a water bottle when you use the tubular to compensate for the slight difference.

Here's the easy way to do it. Do constant power runs up the hill over a set distance. Afterwords, grab the ave power and ave speed and trot on over to analyticcycling.com. Enter in all the necessary variable into the "Power given Speed" calculator. Assume a set Crr of .0050 and see what the calculator estimates for the power of each run and compare it to the actual power. You should then be able to see which wheel takes more power and be able to make your decision wisely.

Oh yeah...do a "stomp" test on your wheels prior to the test and make sure the offset is zeroed.

Have fun!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The wheel and tire end of the bicycle industry make tubulars as a practical joke. Whenever a customer or pro team chooses to use tubulars they all have a good laugh about it, because clearly, clinchers are far superior. It's confirmed by all the testing.It's the same thing with wheelsize; 700c wheels are far superior but they throw a few 650c wheeled bikes into the pipeline just for laughs. Watch out for aerodynamic and weight issues too, because these are obviously part of the conspiracy as well. The biggest one of all though, is coaching and training advice.Who would do anything other than the correct type of training authorized by the all-knowing coach, of which there is obviously only one? You can never expect to perform well if you don't exactly according to "The Program".

How do you find all this valuable information? It's only dispensed by the people who have total authority and confidence in these matters. They accept no latitude on any issues as only they have the answers. Ask for it and they'll step up, as they miss no opportunity to impart their knowledge upon others. You know who they are.

Greg.

Right...and I was responding to your assertion that the pinch flat "issue" was the most important part of your response.




Finally! Data! However, I'm sad to say that you may be a bit high on the weight difference. I've run the numbers on 404 clinchers vs. 404 tubies (using "apples to apples" tires - Vittoria Corsas and Open Corsas, latex tubes, and rim strips) and I got a weight difference much closer to 450 g (or, 1 lb. Hence my assertion that the weight diff was closer to 1 lb than to "a couple").

While I also tend towards "weight weenie-ism" in bicycle equipment, in this case your "weenie-ness" may be somewhat misplaced. Obviously, the trade-off here is weight vs. rolling resistance. By going with the lighter wheels you're required to take a hit on rolling resistance. If you're going to be racing on flat terrain, the obvious choice is going to be to use the setup with the lower RR, right? Conversely, if you're hitting hilly terrain, the best choice is going to be the lighter setup, right?...Well, not so fast.

Logically, there is going to be a certain steepness of hill where the better rolling resistance of the clincher setup will be offset by the lighter weight of the tubulars, correct? Anything less steep and the clinchers will have an advantage (due to their RR), and on anything steeper the tubular setup will win out (due to their lower mass). OK, so what is that steepness?

If you run the numbers (I have...it's basic physics) you'll find that "break even" point to be over 9% grade! That's right...at every grade below that, the clincher version of the 404 will be faster. Now...that's comparing one of the best rolling clinchers to it's tubular "twin", which also happens to be one of the best rolling tires of _its_ type. If you are running slower tubies (i.e. an "average" one, like a Conti) then that "break even" grade is even steeper. Shocking, huh? Conversely, if you're insist on running a slow clincher, that grade will be shallower, but not by much.

This is actually one of the few cases in bicycling equipment were to get faster, you actually have to add weight.

Oh yeah...please don't trot out the "rotating weight" argument. That's one dead horse that doesn't deserve to be beaten once again.

So...in summary. Tubulars rule (especially Tufos) and every tire should be pumped up to it's highest possible pressure. Carry on.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I agree with everything you said. To really be a weight weenie the obsession with weight MUST defy logic!

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Geoffrey Nenninger

The front wheel?

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Geoffrey Nenninger

Oh crap...I think he's onto us....

Actually, perhaps a reading of this is in order:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/...sa/thermo/thermo.htm

Enjoy!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

i'd like to suggest a slightly easier way to test this. its very hard to do real constant power output. if you have access to a computrainer or other device or set of devices that (a) has a power meter and (b) has a way to adjust rolling resistance by varying on-tire pressure, you can:

1) inflate tires to some defined PSI
2) install bike on device
3) engage rolling resistance with tire to the very first contact point
4) crank up rolling resistance by a defined amount (e.g. turns of the computrainer knob)
5) ride bike and perform a rolldown test
6) repeat with other tire

keep in mind warmup etc. required to make this accurate.

if the rolldown test shows less rolling resistance at the same "knob setting", then there is less rolling resistance and you will have a numeric value for the difference.

ACK!
Let's just cut to the chase real simple like-
you - tubulars have no tubes, along with some other stuff, but who cares now.
me - yes they do and they are exactly the same as clinchers

you - 2 pounds of difference between 404 clinchers with gp4000 and 404 tubulars with conti comp's.
me - just under one pound of difference for the SET.

I'm done

That weight is out on the rim. So basically double the weight for rotation (when moving).

I was responding to your "221 grams, anything else" statement. You didn't add the front wheel. I never said there was 2 pounds difference between tubular 404's and clincher 404's. I said one might save UP TO a couple of pounds with tubulars. I very clearly pointed out that the 522 gram difference I got when I looked up weights for clincher 404's vs. tubular 404's was "a little more than a pound." Who cares?

What I meant initially was that a tubulars' tube is a part of the tire. To take it out requires a high amount of effort and a blade. Because it doesn't have a clincher style tube, a tubular is not as prone to pinch flats (and I am by far not the only person to assert this, it is practically common knowledge).

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Geoffrey Nenninger

I didn't make that statement.

sorry i meant to reply to ErnieK

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Geoffrey Nenninger

"Hope that helps with your decision. I do NOT race on tubulars because I think they are faster or because I think they are better made."

screw all the works better stuff.
tubbie glue is the bomb.
It is all about the smell of glue.
Clinchers stink.
Just take a good wiff.
If bikes were logical we would never spend more than $100. for a bike.
ride what makes you feel good about the sport.
For me it's tubbies and box rims.
Cheep bikes with good wheels and tires. well not real cheep.
They bring me back to my roots in cycling and the fun I have had in the sport.

OH they are safer to.

Thom

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but the beloved Tufo tubulars DO NOT have tubes. I guess you'd call them a "tubeless tubular". And just to make things even more complicated, pretty soon we'll probably start seeing more of the tubeless clinchers that Mavic, Michelin and others have been working on.

Greg.

Anyone have a cross section as to how these tubeless clinchers mount?

If they are anything like the MTB wheels out there, I'd be a bit concerned as I've witnessed many of those "burp" off wheels---sounds like a gunshot.

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"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

Hello???



What do the PRO's use?



I think most of you know the answer...

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Lar Dog

It doesn't matter to me what the pros use because either tubular or clincher in the majority of peloton still have tubes in them.

My comments and concern is for the newly introduced TUBELESS clinchers that have been trialed.

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=====================================
"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

Its a wash

Both work equally well, with tubulars being more flat resistant, faster accelerating, and much lighter, and easier to change if flat, plus you may be able to ride them flat if need be.

[reply]Hello???



What do the PRO's use?



I think most of you know the answer...[/reply]

autologous blood doping, EPO, hgh.

Woooeeeeee!!!! Ain't this fun, guys? Zipadeedoodaday!

What do the pros use, what ever is given to them for free. Boy, that was easy.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep