Sleep 7-7:30 hours instead of 8 hours. That will make you sleep really well. That’s what I do usually.

That is interesting. Any idea why that works better for you ?

i wouldn't place too much (any?) weight on the garmin cycle/phases info - that is generally regarded as rubbish. if you wake up feeling reasonaly refreshed then garmin sleep scores should be ignored.
RHR is pretty reliable but can be an indicator of stress rather than sleep quality (these are definitely related but which is the root issue?) - reducing your stress is probably the best solution but may have practical limitations. something has caused that increase and can almost certainly be corrected.

beyond that, the main sleep hygiene factor you don't mention is screen time before bed. blue-bocker glasses as an alternative approach. i think of sleep prep as starting 3 hours before actual sleep - last food, then start relaxing your body.
is your issue getting to sleep, staying asleep or just restless/poor quality sleep?

l-theanine can be good for reducing stress
5http, melatonin and tart cherry are variations on the same thing which can be good for getting to sleep but i find they have a negative impact on my ability to stay asleep once they wear off which even the supposed slow-release ones do all too soon.
magnesium is a great option for any athlete struggling to sleep

on the toilet front, obviously don't drink too much in the hours before bed but also try using electrolytes in your water to improve absorption rather than it just flushing through you

Thanks for the response

I have the blue blocking glasses but haven't tried yet.

Most of my concern comes from the increased RHR from normal

I drink electrolytes most days as you imagine due to training

Stress relief is unlikely for 5 or so more years but I will keep that in mind

Thanks for the post

There has been a LOT of research as of late and I pay attention to it. Do NOT follow the advice of less sleep one suggested as many athletes in train need a minimum of 9 hours and that number has surfaced more and more in research. I am lucky in that at 70+ I sleep like a teen ager which I initially thought was bad until I looked deeper into it. There are some great podcasts from legit people who discuss the merits of more sleep for those of us who train. Obviously caffeine after a certain time is bad, and if you are up too many times to use the bathroom, enough is enough....quit drinking. Go to sleep when you are tired, research says cooler is better (we do 63 or so), and often some protein before bedtime leads to better recovery and good sleep.
Look into some of the current research and I know you will find ways that work for you.

---

Kiwami Racing Team

Thanks. I am zero caffeine.

I cannot work out how to not get up to go to the bathroom and have been to urologists etc but it's not like I know anyone at my age who doesn't have to as well

It's great you don't have to

Might make it a little colder and try 63

High stress was mentioned. That, to me, (soon to be 62), is a very significant factor.

Do you nap in the day? (I suspect not due to "high stress" commentary!?).

At nearly 62, I find that I get "dreamy sleep" very often, but I know that such sleep is much "shallower" than before.

People mention 8-9 hours. LOL!! I haven't gone beyond what I consider to be 7 hours of "quality sleep" in seemingly eons. A pipedream that I won't even stress about. (Stress, again!!)

Ageing is what it is. But I think napping - 30min to 120min most days, in the late afternoon, is a luxury that is important - and something that I can very happily afford - but many my age cannot.

---

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Check out some of the current research.
Here's a few good listens and they often have follow ups on this shows....

https://podcasts.apple.com/...9225?i=1000634893060



https://podcasts.apple.com/...3041?i=1000642929005

a few bits on sleep here...

https://podcasts.apple.com/...3041?i=1000642116231


I know there are many more and sleep quality has been shown to be such a huge help in performance and longevity.

---

Kiwami Racing Team

Have you done a sleep study? Much of what you describe sounds like my previous sleep pattern. I am a 57 yr old male and have to get up nightly also. Found out I have sleep apnea and before I began using a CPAP my study showed i woke up 28 times an hour, basically every two minutes. unbelievable how the CPAP changed my sleep and how much more rested i feel each day. Might be worth checking into. Of course stress is also a likely contributor. Best of luck on your search.

The garmin stuff is interesting, but nothing more. At best it's a basis to start a conversation with your doctor. But, the real question is are you having any issues that suggest you aren't getting enough good sleep?

Have you had any significant changes in your sleep?

How do you feel when you wake up?

Do you consume alcohol?

How do sleep after a week of vacation? Do you sleep better, more, or the same?

If you are concerned, or you have unexplained significant changes in your sleep you should discuss with your doctor... And determine the right course of action. It's not that big of a deal to get a sleep study, if there is something to be solved.

As for urination during the night, when do you stop consuming liquids before bed?

I've dealt with this stuff for way longer (30 years) than I like - sleep apnea, restless leg syndrome, insomnia. At 64 I now sleep well, but it's not without assistance, and it's occasionally more fragile depending on how well I follow my own rules (and those I get from my sleep medicine doctor). Stress and anxiety have been common problems.

What does your nighttime routine look like?
What do you eat and what do you drink at night, and when? high fat? low fat?
How late in the day do you have caffeine from any source (coffee, tea, chocolate, etc.) and how much do you have on a daily basis?

How late do you work?
Do you do any relaxation exercises (breathing, meditation, stretching, etc.) at night?

A few things that work for me:
no caffeine from tea or or coffee after noon; maybe 1 small square of chocolate no later than 7:30. No alcohol after 7:00 PM. smaller dinner, low fat in the evenings.

bedroom is cool (<= 67), dark (and I wear a sleeping mask), and quiet. I have blackout curtains on the windows.

Some tea in the evening 2 hrs before bed - usually chamomile + ashwaganda .
see https://ods.od.nih.gov/...-HealthProfessional/

I have some GABA + L-Theanine on hand for occasional use, which helps
see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15700178/

I don't work in the evenings anymore, which helps, but even personal projects can hinder mental relaxation. Breathing exercises and / or meditation helps, as if I'm stressed in the evening then that has a huge effect on my sleep, and can overwhelm anything else I do.

I dont nap on a program and try to keep them to a 13 or 26 min nap cycle but will do so if necessary

I hadn't done that. I'm glad for
Your feedback. Doctors here are painfully eager to suggest it so I figured their kickbacks were huge and was suspicious

Thanks I will do this for sure

The concerning difference is the rise in RHR from 59 to mid to high 60s

I drink but not much and sleep is the same or pretty much the same either way. For example it's been 5 days since I drank and last night my RHR was 68

Re: urination I stop drinking around 8 but the amount of the urination is small. I.e. not enough t to warrant it but once i. Awake I have to or cannot sleep again

Thanks, pretty similar to what i expected.

i dont consume caffeine anymore at all. I stop eating at 8, I stop fluid intake at 8. I have a chilipad (68) and a very dark room. Dinners are usually small and more vegetable and protein based than fat. Particularly now, I am doing all of these things aggressively to see if I can get my RHR back into the normal range.

Does the rise in rhr correspond to an increase in your stress level?

Anyway, seems like you should be following the advice of your doctor and get that sleep study.

No the stress is consistent

I really think for me anyhow...my best sleep is when I shut the TV, and phone off about 45 min before I'm ready to turn into bed. Getting off social media. I work late typically but the phones...they sure mess with you. Not an early riser & rarely set an alarm as I don't work until later usually. Races are a bugger to get up for as I'm not normally awake that early. Staying away from soda or coffee too late is another good point. Being able to disconnect your mind from anything you have to worry about or what's coming up tomorrow is also key--forget about it and relax. Rarely can I sleep longer than 7 hours straight...it's just too hard to fall back asleep & feel fully rested.

The advice of less sleep is based on the idea that sleep cycles last 90 minutes and it is best to not wake up in the middle of a cycle. Hence the advice to sleep 7:30 instead of 8. The next cycle would end at 9 hours, which would be better than 7:30.

Interesting

I’m 47 and I’ve found that magnesium works wonders for my sleep. I also have a sleep number bed, not sure how accurate it is but it tracks resting heart rate, variable heart rate, and breath rate. I have had lots of injuries from racing motocross and I find adjusting the softness and hardness of my bed helps with discomfort. Too many people don’t take sleep seriously!
Good luck with finding what works for you!!!
Jeff

Another good resource...

https://www.amazon.com/...Dreams/dp/1501144316

Good luck.

---

Kiwami Racing Team

Thanks. A lot of good advice here

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned or asked yet, but based on your username I am guessing you are female? If you don't mind me asking, are you post-menopausal? This is definitely likely to impact sleep quality if so.

What is your caffeine consumption? Since 1990 I don't use caffeine (mainly coffee) after noon regardless of how sleepy or tired I am and what time zone. I am 58, and according to my garmin averaged over 7.5 hrs of sleep per night all of 2023 (so over 2700 hrs of sleep out of 8700 hrs of the year) and I trained around 830 hrs. I am not retired and have the pressure of a tech company so my sleep is king. I would not worry too much about the Garmin metrics as long as your total hours lying down is good.

I also drink zero alcohol since 2002 and also take zero medication, no vitamins, nothing from pills and generally no food products that you can buy at "fitness place".

I've been sleeping with the TV on for the last few years. Typically something pre-recorded so it doesn't have commercials.

I sleep much better that way. According to most research, that's not normal.

Normally it's a documentary on PBS or Futurama.

I'm 3 years younger but not having same issues. I also have stressful job. Here are some things that I think work for me - meditation for sleep right before bed for like 10 minutes really helps me sleep better. I use the Peloton App or the Calm App or the therabody smart goggles with their app. If work is particularly stressful, I will take 'elite sleep' by Momentous - you can get it from Momentous or at the Feed. I have chill pad too - I set it to 62-64. Also, no alcohol.

What is your caffeine consumption?//

She has said several times here that she has 0 caffeine. I think the 8pm eating limit could be pushed back an hour or two, and lots of other good advice here to give a shot. The peeing thing is tough, isn't necessarily from drinking too much, just a thing some folks have later in life. My wife gets up 2 to 3 times a night while I almost never have to.


Good luck OP, get back with us on things you try and what seemed to work. A lot of us in the same boat, and a more important metric than usually given by athletes...

To OP: how do you feel? I would suggest the other stuff is interesting, but mostly noise, until that q is answered. (Not being critical … I’ve just been on a major “RPE first, then the other stuff” kick with training lately, and that thinking is spilling over into other things.)

oops: not a woman. fooled by user name.

😂 I think there is a good joke or two in here.

I must do "white noise". ie A fan that is NOT one of those quiet ones.

---

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Get a saucepan and put it by your bed to use that. Saves you getting up

While I have none of the problems you have, I do sympathize.

I wondered, after reading your post, about what level of training and competition you typically perform at.

And as a random thought, as another person has asked if you have sleep apnea, have you considered going to a Sleep Clinic where you can be observed.

The HR peaks would worry me.

I used to do a fan but the new TV's draw less amps.

I kind of wrote the TV programs as a joke but I actually like NOVA on PBS and Futurama is the best show ever.

I've done the white noise and other sounds from a sound machine but they are too regular and I can hear the neighbors over the noise and between the rhythms programmed into it. The TV is too irregular to hear outside noises (for me)

(1) 55 M here, insomnia and anxiety issues for most of adult life (like, psychiatrist-treated in addition to trying everything under the sun);
(2) Research does not support (or is best iffy) use of many non-prescription remedies for sleep, and supplements aren't regulated anyway so you have no idea what dosage you're getting, and the bioavailability of orally-taken supplements is notoriously poor and heavily advertised/marketed to convince you otherwise;
(3) Zolpidem immediate-release 10 mg; or zolpidem controlled-release 12.5 mg with occasional departures to Lunesta or Sonata over the past 25 years works for me;
(4) Non-benzodiazepine drugs, specifically orexin antagonists which work on non-BZ/GABA receptors are effective if you are reluctant to take anything in (3) - I have tried lemborexant (Dayvigo), it worked ok for me but zolpidem is my go-to;
(5) I envy you in that you only get up 2 times to hit the head - that's my bare minimum, and basically dehydrating myself from 1900 onwards;
(6) My room temp is 66 F, have fan, white noise (analog), and air filter system going; and
(7) With those things and no booze - that's really a big one, unfortunately - my recipe is good for a decent 8-9 hours per night with no residual sleepiness.

Good luck!

I'm 57 (male) and sleep nine hours per night, usually without waking up except briefly to pee a couple times (I'm 57 after all), so it's possible. I personally sleep better when:

- work isn't stressing me out
- I don't drink alcohol
- I'm working out a lot

Easier said than done, and there is a bell curve in terms of how much sleep people require. I need a lot. No supplements for me, just healthy eating. Check out Peter Attia's book Outlive for discussion on sleep's importance (among many many other things)

A 50 year old male here. I go to bed at 10pm.
I found that the following makes a ton of difference:

1. not drinking at all - and if i do drink, it is vodka/dry gin only.
2. not working out after 5pm, and no stress after 7pm.
3. no caffeine after 1pm.
4. sleeping mask and ear plugs.
5. room temp as low as i can manage living in a 70 year old sfh in SoCal.
6. good ventilation.
7. reading a physical book or listening to a podcast instead of staring at a screen after 8pm.

If I stick with these guidelines, my rhr stays below 45bpm.

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

No I am male

Close to zero caffeine for a few months now

Ok, interesting. Sounds like I should try lowering the temp on the chili and trying calming app and report back

It's a good question, I don't feel great. I don't feel awful but I don't feel great. When training I feel good as a de stress mechanism.

It's hard to explain so hence my trying to quantify. I should say I don't feel like I sleep well, physically I feel ok after an hour when I wake up

It can just be age, I get that

I am middle of the pack at Ironman events and have started wining local events since I moved up to 55-60. Train 7-13 hours a week. Have a coach

Many have suggested the sleep study. Perhaps I'll try it.

If my rhr hadn't risen I'd be relatively unconcerned

I have had numerous cardo examinations and am confident I'm up to speed on my heart health

Will try some of your advice

Ok I'll bite: What makes these alcohol drinks "better" (if that's what you meant, perhaps?) for sleep than other alcohol drinks?

---

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

I would guess because low sugar content - beer is the triple crown - high calorie, wheat based, carbonated, high glycemic index

just hit the big 50. my sleep has always been all over the map. usually around 7 hours but I cannot go longer (unless massive jet lag from work trip to different continent). biggest thing that helps me sleep is reading an actual book (preferably hardcover) at least 30 minutes before closing my eyes. no screens. reading relaxes me and I start to nod after about 30 minutes. Not working out too late in the day helps. I take magnesium. I do not like Melatonin as it makes me feel a bit groggy as soon as I wake. Stress and working a lot is probably a big factor. I'm a workaholic, so this plays a role.

Bite? I am merely self reporting. YMMV.

---

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

😂

I had to look up YMMV. I'm 62.

You said "I found that the following makes a ton of difference", so I thought that vodka/dry gin was significant in this regard.

I'm a whiskey guy myself!

So, um, in Canada, pot is legal. Does anyone here dabble in THC/CBD oils for sleep benefits?

---

I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

I don't know Alex's reason, but...

1. Dark liquor has been shown to increase hangovers due to the chemicals extracted/created from the barrel aging process.

As for beer:
1. Most beer does NOT have wheat in it. Beer is made from barley except for specific styles.
2. Carbonation is of little consequence. It creates a very mild acid (carbonic acid)...most of which goes away as the CO2 effervesces out of solution.
3. Beer generally does not have a high sugar content unless it has been back-sweetened with Lactose (like a milk Stout). The sugars are consumed by the yeast and converted into alcohol. Beer does have carbohydrates, but these are 90+% complex carbs. How much...depends on the specific beer (coors light vs. Porter).
4. The glycemic index of beer is high-ish, but that's only part of the story. Its generally a low glycemic load because there aren't that many carbs in beer to absorb....again, depending upon the specific beer (light-lager vs. full-bodied ale).

On the other hand, Beer is generally lower in alcohol than most other drinks (other than the Belgian styles, and OTT American IPA variants), and consequently higher in water content...which increases the likelihood of not getting dehydrated---another cause of increased hangover severity.

A higher resting heart rate and worsening sleep quality have long been flags for overtraining for me.

As I’ve gone past 50, I’ve also discovered that I need to decrease workout intensity on my easy aerobic days and easy aerobic workouts make up a higher percentage of workouts than they used to.

Don't listen to your Garmin. It has no idea about what is going on in your mind. If you want to know how good a sleep you are getting in your head, you need to be hooked up and do an actual study for that. Those sleep tracking apps/devices are garbage.

I’ve got a Garmin also. Your sleep score can be affected by stress (there should be a graph in the Garmin app that you can see if your stress levels are high during sleep). I think this is essentially picking up your HR so if you say your RHR is high that might potentially be why your sleep score is bad.

Also if you have a lot of interrupted sleep through the night then it will not give you a good score (going to the bathroom is normal I think unfortunately). Do you know if you snore because if you do, there’s a possibility you may have sleep apnea? A sleep clinic can pick this up. You may also move around a lot at night which may be natural for you, so the Garmin might say you’ve got interrupted sleep … I don’t have this problem so I’m not sure, but the sleep clinic may be able to confirm.

I’m not a doctor so just talking about the technology and how I understand it … it’s typically spot on for me, if I’ve had bad sleep Garmin knows it and I am grumpy and groggy.

The RHR would be a concern and probably best to see a doctor. Mine will spike during illness, or when I’ve had a drink. Or when I’m very stressed. If you have a lot of stress it would be good to find ways to relax .. think a lot of ppl already have suggestions … depending on your stress factors I don’t know if seeing someone to talk with might help?

67 year old male, retired. Since getting my Garmin Vivoactive 5 I've been watching the Sleep score and Body battery when waking up in the morning. I think it's pretty spot on for me. I sleep really well after a day of SBR training. Specially master swim days where I probably due the most intensity compared to moderate days of biking and easy running.

I still love coffee in retirement and I drink about a pot a day, finishing the last cup (microwaved) at dinner. I rarely drink alcohol any longer and if I do I find that those little airplane bottles of Fireball don't keep me up peeing all night ;) I take regular hour naps during the day.

Funny, when I was working I'd tell myself I'll never get up early again but I still find myself getting up around 4am on master swim days and I can't sleep past sunrise (shines through the bedroom window). In full disclosure I go to bed really early, like 8pm on swim nights and around 9pm any other night.

And on CBD/THC, I tried the 5mg gummies at night. At first, I thought they worked really well but after a while I figured out my sleep was more restful without taking them. YMMV

I don't snore fortunately. I get the limitations of the Garmin but it sets a baseline for at least RHR. I had an Oura ring and it was equally crap

You left a lot of stuff out that would be helpful. onset and duration of sleep issues. events around the time it began ie. did your stress spike prior to your sleep issues, etc.

As a minimum consider the following. . .

1. Google "24 hr sleep log" and fill one out. It's better than recollection as a way to follow sleep patterns. make sure you put in stressors for the day.
2. Yes, a home sleep test may be warranted. You have non-restorative sleep which is a very common symptom of untreated OSA.
3. Assess your stress levels. . . seek ways to mitigate it ie meditation.
4. Practice good sleep hygiene. Many of the things have been said. . . Give yourself 30-60' to wind down. No exercise/food 4-6 hours before bed. Avoidance of electronics. Blue lens blocker.
5. It doesn't appear as though you are describing insomnia. Unless I missed it, you don't have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. Just wake up 1-2x/night and don't feel rested.
6. Assess your meds to see if they might affect sleep
7. Alcohol consumption - cut it out for a few weeks or a month +.

Just some thoughts.

Agreed. RHR and HRV measured metrics are fine....as is sleep duration, at least for actual sleeping in bed (but, it doesn't do naps outside of the defined "sleeping" window). The issues with Garmin come up when trying to make inferences based on accelerometers, RHR, and HRV for sleep phases, and quality, and all that junk. You need real sensors, and real doctors and a sleep study for that.

Frankly, the same can be said of the other inferences that Garmin makes using HRV. Mostly junk guesses...sometimes mildly interesting for entertainment purposes only.

I'd like to say thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful responses. I'll take a lot of them onboard and report back

Hope it's been helpful for others suffering

Was in office so only got to glance through the 3 pages. Its a common problem that’s hard to solve online.

OP I’ll send you a DM and we can talk.

Garmin added nap tracking to higher end watches last year. https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...ng-nap-tracking.html
I believe that the feature has appeared on other watches since then.

I have an Fenix 6 pro. It hasn't been added to my watch (standard SW, I don't do beta), can't comment otherwise.

It's available on my lower end Vivoactive 5 and works quite well!

This doesn’t address your question, but I stopped drinking any water after dinner (around 5) and I’ve stopped waking up to pee as often … some nights I don’t even wake up at all!

After so many years of drinking water right before bed, I feel so silly ….

I was diagnosed with sleep apnea in my late 40s. I'd ask your doctor about a sleep test. Good luck!

Agree that high stress is a huge factor. I had a pretty stressful job but once retired my sleep quality really improved. Would suggest incorporating stress reduction activities like yoga and meditation prior into your daily routine.

Thanks. Maybe no drinking after 5. I'll try it

I did the same thing recently and it was a work of difference. Just make sure you drink a bit more earlier on in the day.

That and “white noise” machine (cheap) helped a lot too! Not sure how sensitive to little noises in the night you are (one drip of a faucet would wake me up).

Had a sleep study done- normal.

Good luck!