He says very clearly in the end - you're getting all the equivalent of hard intervals on the group ride attacks that you are expected to participate in.

He'd almost certainly change his tune with respect to triathletes who might never go on group rides with attacks.

That's a pretty common misconception though. You're rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.

However if you were going with Horner's philosophy, you would probably be more motivated to do harder attacks at times - longer attacks at times. But generally - yes...a lot of doodling along for most average group rides.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Yeah, about 12 levels down the cycling eliteness scale, that's my approach. Get lots of solo, low intensity volume in during the week, do the simulated road race group rides on the weekend. In those group rides you can get whatever kind of interval you want. If you want "sweet spot"/threshold, just sit in. If you want VO2 max efforts, attack off the front. If you want neuromuscular training, go for the town line sprints.

There are downsides vs. pure intervals. You can't control the group, just your position in it. With true intervals you get to see progression over the same workout. Vs. group rides you have to use things like MMP curves to see how your power at different durations is progressing.

When approaching pure TTs, I'll still throw in intervals because in a group ride it's hard to ride right at threshold for long durations unless the group is magically right at your threshold pace and stays consistent.

How many crit races have you won?

Horner's group rides probably weren't average. The ones I was on with him were full of pro triathletes, some domestic pros, Cat 1-2 types. Lesser talented, I was usually on the limit to just say attached, often failing at that. After the first ~5 miles exactly zero doodling, usually because the Cat P12 types would ignite the first real climb to drop all the Cat 3-5 riders and lesser triathletes for better group ride safety. Might have been tempo-ish for the likes of Horner, so then he'd join a more select group that'd go out to Mount Palomar or thereabouts for some real climbing (at which point zero chance for me). Cavendish used to do that ride as well.

I think you're thinking of triathlete-group rides or casual group rides.

Ride with more than 2 competitive roadies who aren't on their easy day, and there's gonna be serious pain in there - more than you'll get on your own in most cases.

Every group ride I've ever done with more than 2 competitive roadies (not triathletes) in the mix has been near tops for me in terms of avg power, NP, and max power. And I'm usually just trying to keep up - I'm not doling out the pain!

As of last summer, I want to say around 7 or 8? I race bikes primarily, mostly crits. Doing group rides for your intervals for most amateurs will result in a little bit of going too hard and a lot of going easy.

Even though the decisive moments of bike races tend to be from going over threshold, that's built on having a good base at threshold, which many people simply will not do. In addition, many people will be more apt to go too hard.

A well periodized plan for a road racer definitely has some group rides in it. However, doing targeted intervals will definitely be better than doing group rides alone, assuming you're trying to maximize performance

A crit is the hardest interval workout you can do.

Even the "wednesday night worlds" local group rides can be brutal. The one by me has a small hill a few miles in that takes 400W+ for three minutes just to not get spat out the back, and that's early going with no one trying to force a selection.

---

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

rim brake, epo and oakleys is all i needed for 6.5 w p kg too

it all depends the group. the ones I choose treat each ride like a crit race. I avoid the long distance beer social rides.

Those race group rides are great at getting you tired. Done properly they're a great place to learn how to ride among a group. They're not nearly as good at getting you fast as most think they are though. If all you're trying to do is have fun, then fine. If that's what get you actually on your bike, then no doubt you're faster than if you didn't go. If you're trying to optimize performance, that's not the way to do it.

When was the last time you spent 40+ minutes at threshold in one of those rides? Preferably time accumulated in chunks >10 minutes. Also, I know I'd never be able to properly do vo2 in a ride like that because I'm barely able to pedal after each rep, at which point you're out the back.

Not if you're doing it right. The key to successful crit racing, well, at least one key, is to do the least amount of work possible until it really matters.

Pro cyclists have 80-90 yearly race days; I have a hard time believing they are doing anything beyond base training on non-race days, let alone intervals

Pros vs Joes and apples to grapefruits?

I know a lot of joes that are the super high miles low intensity sit in weekend B group riders who couldn’t do 280w for even 5min if their lives depended on it. Sure the pro’s intensity maybe came from “racing into shape” but it shouldn’t be confused with only toodling about at 130w all day in a group ride.

Here is a TDF rider

They absolutely do intervals. In fairness this isn't during race season.

12 minute intervals, alternating 2'30" at 35-370w 40/50rmp, 30" 470w 100 rpm

The simplest way to look at it is that intervals save time. So if you have unlimited time like a pro cyclist, perhaps intervals begin to lose some effiacy? And Horner is just dumb.

Shockingly there are different groups and different rides. Plenty of groups do specifically hard 'drop' rides in the hills during the winter. Some guys don't want to do super hard group rides in the summer to stay sharp for racing often. I'd say if you're not challenged by the group then you need to find a faster group. Judging by TSS there's a good overlap between easy races and hard group rides. THat's the kind of group you want to find.

You can build up threshold to a strong degree by doing VO2 style workouts (like what happens in group rides). You're not doing group rides exclusively, there's all the other days for z2 stuff. For crit racing I'd rather have a guy with a 10w lower 60min but a 10w higher 3min. For triathlon you'd pick the opposite. That's just the way races work.

You have to remember too, that Horner raced in an era when even in North America you could get dozens and dozens of race days/year with hard, fairly big money races most weekends. When he was in Europe it would have still been at a time when most racers other than the elite few TdF guys raced very frequently.

How many interval days do you do in a year? If you have 60-90 race days and some early season group rides that doesn't leave too many days that need structured work.

---

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

This post sounds conflicting as you are saying it's too hard but then also not hard enough. My best is 30min on these rides, they are taxing, and demoralizing as there are older folks who can hang longer.

Not really conflicting if you understand physiology. Maybe it would be better stated as, "Group rides can be very taxing, but the work is not specific. Since it is not specific, you're not going to get the right stimulus you might need to improve"

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

I think that it is easy to take this video out of context.
What he said was "I never did intervals".
That doesn't mean that he didn't train hard. It also doesn't mean that all of his intensity came from group rides.
A order like that is strong enough and positions himself well enough where he can make a group ride as hard or as easy as he needs it to be.
Other things that I know about Chris- He trained high volume. Many 5-6 hour days. A staple of those days was riding for 3 hours, having a Subway sandwich for lunch and then ramping it up over the next 3 hours. Also, go ride a climb hard. 20-30 minutes at full gas. A lot of interval type riders never do that. Lastly, a huge amount of racing that covers intensity.

I used to employ a similar strategy when I was younger. Race twice on the weekend, do a training criteria during the week. Everything else took care of itself. This approach got me to a competitive Cat 1 level. It was only when I got older, wanted to be good at stage races and time trials that I needed to change my approach.

Lastly, Chris was an absolute freak. Gained form quickly, could ride away from US fields, and was such a good bike handler, had such good bike IQ, and so good in corners that he was a threat in crits without being a sprinter. Possible other factors too, but he was doing this as early as the mid 90's.

Now, hold on just a minute! Are you saying that workouts that leave you shattered aren't what we need to improve?

j/k If it was, we'd just go do a spin class every couple of days.

I can see this being the case if you're new to bike racing or recently upgraded, but races in general aren't nearly as hard as proper hard training days if you're a good bike racer.

In a race the goal is to do as little as possible until it's necessary to do a lot. Most people capable of podiuming races are doing just that. Quite a few p/1/2 crits I've won have less kJ burned in an hour than a moderate sweetspot workout of the same duration. Just the nature of racecraft. Get a solid group of people together on a Saturday, or something, though, with your only intention being to absolutely destroy yourselves...those are the days with the massive amounts of big watts and kJ.

This. And on the other end, when I wanted to sharpen fitness, I'd destroy myself on group rides.

'This' what? Quote vs Reply, one is simple to follow and the other requires you to scroll back through countless posts to figure out what you're on about.

I guess you’ll have to use your imagination or ingenuity.

^^^ This. Even Van der Poel, racing and crushing the field, went back to training so he could get more fitness. No matter what one thinks, group rides will not get you faster.

---

Kiwami Racing Team

Aside from this. They're doing far less than 80-90 days a year now. Maybe in the 80's-90's? Lemond really flipped the table over when it came to season planning by focusing on the Tour. This is the norm these days, apart from maybe Pog. More than anything, these guys generally spend about 50-60 days a year at altitude training and doing.... wait for it..... intervals.

---

---

Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

maybe, but the skill of drafting in a tight fast pack can be easily lost with mostly solo training. I think zwift/rouvy should make a change to their drafting algo that completely takes off the tension when you are riding behind some body - so you can't grind pedal through other people

The skill of holding a wheel at speed and maintaining a good position in the pack is vital for any racing and is easily lost unless you do a group ride regularly.

I've been on many good and bad rides. The bad ones were where people were obsessed with not getting dropped, never took any risks and aspired to be MOP wheel followers. Attacking after a sprint point was a favorite tactic.

The good ones had a good warmup and a couple of regroup points. People pushed their limits and got dropped but knew they had a chance to get back on. Usually you'd end up in a group of 8 or 10 doing a double rotating paceline for for 50 mins or so. You'd be chasing another group or holding off chasers. Only way to go fast was working with others to go as fast as possible. Great for improving timing, riding efficiently, working the top end and figuring you how to recover while in the red. Some of the best training you can do.

No intervals worked for Eddy Merckx.

But that guy raced in the 60s and 70s, and our understanding of performance has progressed.

In my 2022 rides, where I had a power meter, my group rides tended to be a lot of time at low power (endurance ish pace), and maybe 20-30 minutes at or above threshold. That’s not quite enough to build time to exhaustion around threshold. In contrast, the club’s faster ride would have had me probably riding at tempo pace in the bunch, and then going way over threshold in the 30 seconds I was able to stay at the front.

Everyone’s zone distribution is going to vary depending on them and the group, and their response to training is also going to vary. The point is my group rides weren’t productive for me in 2022. In 2023, I specifically worked on TTE. But I also dropped my power meter, so I don’t know exactly how hard I was working at the front - I think I was probably around tempo pace most of the time if I was on the front (for the faster group, I just tried to hang on for dear life and I would spend maybe 2-3 minutes at the front at most).

I think it’s illustrative to read Joe Parkins account of learning the ropes as a young professional in Belgium. Their training was lots of miles, mostly easy, mostly flat. Occasionally the side by side team rides would force thresholdy efforts, though no one called them that. And they raced, a lot. Eventually Parkin returned to the us and raced mountain bikes. He participated in an Olympic camp in 96 and had the revelation of pre season intervals with a hr monitor.

Intervals have been around in cycling since at least the a 80s. Further back in running. There will always be people who succeed without intervals. There’s no replacing talent, or a professional’s calendar. But for the rest of us intervals probably help.

Is that what used to (~20 years ago is the last time I rode it...) be called the "muddy ride" in San Jose on Santa Teresa Blvd?

A bit further north; the PenVelo ride from the reservoir at Canada/92. Lots of great local rides all over South Bay. There is the famous noon ride, but I've never even thought of trying that one (too many pros).

---

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

We were talking about this video on a run last night. A lot more questions than answers but a lot of insight too. Some things that were brought up:

-It's not that 'no intervals' is ineffective, it's that it *could be* less effective than structured intervals. This is nearly impossible to measure tho, as group rides and intuitive training are not easily replicable. A very good rider doing 95% effective training will still find himself at or near the front of the pack.

-The point of doing intervals is to control the specificity of training. A world tour cyclist almost by definition has a good intuition of what training should be to compete in world tour races. "Doing Madone 3 times kinda hard" may not be called interval training, but a power graph of that ride and 3x40min @85%FTP are practically the same.

-Very probably, for a top tier cyclist, it's going to be likelier they to go too hard than too easy. Interval are a tried and true way to control this.

-Group rides frequented by a bunch of triathletes on Slowtwitch are not a good representation of group rides on World Tour teams. World Tour racers will know how a World Tour race goes, and one should reason that their group rides by and large reflect this racing.

-