For a race with 55 slots, will the normal distribution process work for AGs?

Press release reads as though men and women will have separate days, which means fewer men overall than this year.

Women Thursday, men Saturday.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

What.... <checks> oh yeah it is true.

Did Kona tourism board have a say in that decision?

No matter. S'all good as long as we are back in Kona.

So 100 slots (vs. a new standard of 55) to the biggest known draft fest out of the US races for IM Texas.

Yup. Quotes in the article specifically from the county, etc. Basically about how important the partnership between the community and the race is, and two days was important to them both.

Kona is the sacred cow.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Article says Thursday and Saturday if I read correctly?


Also I really hope some kind of % fairness will be in place for AG men! I really see how they could get shafted or women's gets watered down.

They've moving from men and women share a race, to each gender gets its own day (+ a lot of extra women's slots), and you're thinking that men are losing slots?

Yes I realize that this year specifically might be different (2 days with the older men on the first day), but vs any other historical year, both genders have increased the available slots

My thoughts go right to the cost of accommodations. Can 3k to 4k athletes stay on the island at a "reasonable" price? I've read about athletes giving up on their 2022 trips due to the high prices. I'm not sure it's only about the country's current economic problems.

They can, if they're willing to travel a bit on race morning.

My speculation (based on nothing than my own gut) is that there's going to be some type of shuttle system developed from some of the places further north to bring athletes and spectators down on race morning. Probably some VinFast buses, if you read between the lines on that particular announcement.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

This was the play from the beginning. This is why StG is now left at the alter….

The need to move some cruise ships in for accommodations lol

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I’m not complaining. Just trying to do the math. Frankly, I think the qualification standards this year were a joke.

For men, we basically are going back about five years to when there were 50 slots per race vs 40–meaning biggest AGs get 6 vs 4 slots.

I'm on the big island right now. Upon arrival I stood in line for almost two hours to get to the rental car agent. I was then assigned a vehicle that was still being fueled, vacuumed out and washed, which was to add an additional hour to my wait time. This is the new normal according to one of only 3 employees handling that shift. Hopefully it's better in October!

Literally only replying because you have the best username here ever.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Yep, looks like the Big Island blinked and committed to the two day race format before seeing how it goes this year. They must be hurting and spooked by IMSG.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

It will be interesting to see how they divide up the ‘normal slots’. For a race that normally has 55 slots, and then the extra set of slots for women, do the original 55 follow their normal distribution?

Overall I think this is a good thing. It will make the whole experience more expensive because obviously more people in Kona for that week, but it does a)allow more people to qualify, b) supports Kona economically, and c) allows people to keep their ego intact by saying they qualified when it was only a one day event and it was harder to do it then.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
https://www.facebook.com/teameverymanjack

edited as i misread and Mt Tremblant is included. now, i live in penticton so still a bit miffed no pro race here this year, and not included on this womens extra slot list. I mean, our license agreement with Ironman is the best (FOR THEM) on the circuit.

anyway, this is very good news. Ironman are moving the needle here for equal opportunity and growth in the sport after decades of the 'proportional representation' model. I applaud this move.

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@rhyspencer

It does include Tremblant.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I have mixed feelings being one of those athletes who have come sort of close to getting a slot (been 4th, 8th, 5th, 3rd) in the 4 IMs I did in 2016 to 2019. I really wanted to qualify while it was still hard to do so. I was hoping last year in MD would be it. But I came down with a bad case of Plantar Fasciitis which has creeped into 2022 a bit. I'm now in my 50s and not sure how long I'll do the full IMs. So part of me feels really happy this is a realistic goal for 2023. I do wonder about accommodations and travel challenges with that many people in 2023.

I will say that having done 2x 70.3 worlds races, participating in a women's only race is just so nice. I loved that (no offense guys). So if I can qualify for 2023, I really look forward to a women's only race.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

god, i glossed right over that after i saw ireland and was like 'there's a race there, how cool is that?"

thanks!

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@rhyspencer

And Stelvio gets the crown for the first negative comment on what surely must be good news for people who want to race at Kona....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Yes, good news for those who at whatever $$$ it takes to go to Kona, want to go there and just do it. For those who seek a true world top-class AG event, it is bad news.
I understand IM when they decided why to limit the AG participation to results performance, when they can sell out the event to whoever is ready to pay for it no matter how good of a long-distance triathlete you are. But the essence of a World Championship is to do an event for the best of their class, not open to anyone.

So I guess we all need to stop recognizing Kona as a true World Championship. Until 2019 was nice while it lasted. Fare well, Hawaii IMWC!

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STRAVA INSTAGRAM

I had not heard of VinFast until 30 seconds ago.

Did you not see the additional news of the sponsorship from VinFast? The EV maker will be supplying electric scooters to support the races. The refs have now gone into stealth mode.

If the range holds up, would strongly consider for a replacement of my wife's car down the road.

After seeing one of the IM staff have an F150 Lightning this weekend, if they offer me another trade-in on my truck for more than what I paid for it, I'm getting one.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I like the extra women's slots, but I think it's odd with some races getting 100 extra slots and some not getting any. Basically means that if you're doing IMWI this year, you better win your AG. If you're doing IMChatt, just show up since there will be ~115 slots for 650 racers.

I truly understand this post, I really do. (coming from someone who has been trying to KQ). But won't you still have the fastest guys competing against you? They will still be racing and trying to KQ. And some wild cards will be there who may have only gotten 9th or 10th place in their qualifying race due to whatever reason and are now in top,peak shape for Kona. I understand the field will be watered down a bit, but the same fast guys will still be competing (unless there is some protest). The good news for you is that men won't receive extra slots like the women. Plus, you will have a field of all men. Not sure if that is as appealing for men as it is for women. We love having our own field (loved it at 2x 70.3 worlds races). I may not speak for all women, but many expressed the same sentiments as myself for racing against just women.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I’m curious to see how the race dynamics will work at an all-male Kona race in 2023. In 2022, I think it will be muted by all the legacy racers and people getting slots at 150 slot races, deep recent rolldowns, etc.

Next year, I think Saturday will be a lot like a 70.3 WC where draft packs are staggering. It was like that through 2018 with the mass start, but at least you had (generally) slower women occupying a third of the field. Even if you space out the start, there’s gonna be a massive draft fest.

That post also misses the whole "there should always be a spot for the average athlete" motif that was a requirement of selling Hawaii to what became WTC.

If anything, we're now going to get deeper fields that will offer more variability in performance. It'll be fun!

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

In agreement about the odd, and very selective, list of races getting the windfall of WFT slots.

I may be missing something here, but since there’s no mention of how slot allocation will work with the new 2-day format, does that mean it’s unchanged? If that’s the case, women will still only get roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the available slots under normal circumstances. Is that where the WFT slots are bridging the gap? If so, why not just adjust the annual number of slots available to accommodate the number of eligible races, and split that 50/50? It’s hard to picture the WFT slots being a long-term solution when they really should be adjusting the process to adapt long-term to this change. (Unless, of course, it’s not long-term… it did only specify this was for 2023.)

If you want 50/50 for men and women, just do it like the 70.3 WC. Determine the number of available spots and split them up evenly instead of the 55 that get split up normally w/ the 100 extra women's slots at select races. I know that if I was a women doing IMWI or IMMD this year I'd be pissed.

That's a lot more women racing in Kona. Assuming that the two-day IM 140.6 championship continues long term it will be interesting to see how much it influences the total no. of women racing tris.

I think it was a genius move for IM to invite Kona officials to the WC at St. George. I think this made it very clear that they could, in fact, move the WC if Kona wasn't willing to play nice. So IM gets its way: more slots and a lot more money. Now, how they will be able to consistently pull off two days of racing every year in Kona is beyond me. Logistical and financial nightmare for the AG participants.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

They're moving in this general direction so that those extra slots will go to races where there's either larger rates of female participation already, or that they feel there is growth for it.

If you just re-allocate those slots out at all races, dollars to donuts you'd have a lot of women's slots that rolled completely through the field. This method avoids that outcome.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

What do you mean by this? That none of the women in that AG would take a Kona slot?

It will still be a world class AG event…. For those in the front. Just like any Kona about 5% are racing for the AG win. The rest are there for the experience and to do it for themselves.

It changes absolutely nothing but the amount of people on the island

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I struggle to see the differentiation in the US/Canada based races. MD, WI, FL all get no slots, but have 600-650 female finishers. AZ, Chatt, LP, MT get 100 extra slots, all with roughly the same 600-650 female finishers. The races with overall low numbers (Waco and Tulsa) of course have fewer finishers, the men to women ratio is pretty similar at ~3:1. Do they really think that adding slots to Chattanooga but not Florida will drive up the number of women in the sport? I suppose if you're trying to fill the race with front of the mid-pack finishers instead of back of the front pack finishers. The argument could be made that 3rd place at IMWI is more deserving of going to Kona than 15th at Chattanooga, but with the way they've got it now, 3rd at WI isn't going.

Correct.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Assuming you can get all the women to take the slots. At the 70.3 WC's the women's field has always been 25-40% smaller than the men's field.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Thanks for the reply - the logic there makes sense. I’m curious to know which races they fear would have Kona slots go completely through the women’s field?

To add to the list of impacted 2022 races: California wasn’t included and has roughly 1100 women on the participant list, if memory serves right.

ETA: FL, Waco, and many others were left off too, besides WI and MD. To c365’s point, none of these are the most alluring travel destinations. Cozumel could be argued as an exception to that … kind of.

The old ladies will jump at those extra slots. I'm one of them :-)

Seriously, I've been in the top 5 of 3 out of the 4 IMs (edit) and never once a roll down. Plus, many of us are at that place in life/career where we can afford to do Kona.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

Ironman should rotate the men's and women's races between the Thursday and Saturday if they're going to do this.

Also, accommodation and car rental is going to be STUPID with all the extra slots. Prepare to stay in Hilo.

If this was Wed/Sat instead you could have the women racers leaving before some of the men arrive, opening up a lot of accommodations.

Exactly. I never understood the mentality of all those MOP'ers complaining that those dirty slows are diminishing the sanctity of their 50th percentile finish.

Yeah, I am feeling conflicted. I am happy that they are adding WFT slots and actually making an effort to make Kona accessible to more women. However, as a woman already registered for a race overseas that has 0 WFT slots, I am kinda peeved they didn't even the offerings out. 100 WFT slots is A LOT of extra slots. And that's fantastic...BUT, only for the people that happen to already be lucky enough to be doing those races. The rest of us just get a middle finger from IM and regret over having already chosen a different race.

Once again, IM takes something with positive intent and somehow royally F***s it up.

I gave up: 6 x Kona 2008-2018 and 1 x ST G.

Several reasons, the 2nd one is high prices

1st one is that IMO Kailua cannot be a friendly spot with more than 1800 triathletes, just my mind, not judging

Sorry Dr. Triax, you post, while no doubt is congruent with your opinion, is not congruent with facts.

It will still be the IM World Championship as it was before. Before, the designation was applied to whichever race the WTC wanted to attach it to. Now, the same thing is true. They’ve historically called Kona the WC. In 2023, they are calling Kona the WC. In fact, it is a return to roots after the CoVid driven exception in Utah this year.

That alone, negates the validity of your post.

Beyond that, a couple of other things:

1. It’s still in the same place it has been for the last 40+ years: Kona. With all its history and with the majority of the people still viewing it as the most important race on the IM calendar each year. Ask Frodo, or ask Lionel. Ask Blu or Gustav if they think it’s no longer the WC and they’ll probably laugh at the notion. Obviously, it’s just there opinion vs yours. Maybe yours is more valid because you are a “Dr.”?

2. It will still be extremely difficult to qualify for, unless you are a very accomplished triathlete. Going from 40 to 55 slots is a change in degree not a change in kind. The biggest increase in slots will be for women, they will finally get to be on the same footing as the men. Btw, increasing the number of slots has been the norm for Kona throughout its history. In 2019, there were probably 50-100% more slots than in 1989 or 1999. The expansion from 1989 to 2019 will probably be greater than what will happen from 2019 to 2023. You surely are not arguing that at 40 slots it’s a WC but at 55 it isn’t? Right? In my Age Group, Male 65-70, most races have 1 or at most 2 slots. Nothing in this announcement will change that.

3. If you look back at the historical results, you tend to see pretty much the same top men and women in each age group competing for the championship each year (of course they move up in age groups as they age). Adding more people in each age group won’t make it any less competitive. Logic tells you that if anything, it will make Kona more competitive. The very best IM men and women will still go to Kona each year. This announcement changes nothing with respect to that.

4. There will still be legacy. There will still be XC. There will still be HC. There will still be celebrities and the IM charity entrants. There will still be HI residents. Just like in 2019, when you called it the WC.

Yes, more people will be doing it (and sorry if that bugs you, but you don’t get to decide any of this). That’s the way it was in 2019. That’s the way it will be in 2023.

BTW, I completely support your right to not like it. By all-means do so (especially if you are in my Age Group!). But it doesn’t change the facts….

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

 


I'm going for AG top 20 (50-54). I think a lot more than 5% are coming to Kona to race. If you are able to KQ, competing at a high level is in your DNA.

Good news for those that like to draft. I just think IM Texas is a poor choice of all the North American IMs to get 45 extra slots given its history of large draft packs.

It's been a toss up between it and Mont Tremblant for the North American championships, and I believe they've erred on TX simply because it happens earlier in the year.

This is why St George should always be a full. But that's me talking.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

the race will be MUCH more fair for the women, because they'll only have a sliver of the number of men on the course, and more women will have the opportunity to qualify. this is a win all the way around.

there are some problems however. one is IM's problem: having enough volunteers. the other is our problem: a lot more folks on the island, which means the prices go up on everything. i've been urging IM to run free shuttles, often, from waikoloa to downtown kona, during those 2 weeks. the only way to fit everyone on the island, and deal with a discrete limit of rental cars on the island, is to make waikoloa a reasonable alternative. that means:

1. running shuttles back and forth, every 30min or so, with a way to get bikes back and forth, to/from waikoloa.
2. hold an suite of events in waikoloa leading up to the races, so that waikoloa isn't just a bedroom community. you have to bring some of the event to waikoloa.
3. make some of the procedural stuff occur in waikoloa. perhaps allow for remote registration.

if you make it a worthwhile experience to stay in waikoloa for the IM, that will help the 2-race-day format work well for everyone.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

They needed to spread the womens slots out evenly maybe 20 womens slots every race not say 100 at one race and none at the next. And they have over done it, maybe have more everyone slots and about half the quantity of female only.

It will be tough as a male to see a female who finishes 15 out of 25 starters finishing 3 hours behind the AG winner get a slot while men finishing in 5th place only 15 mins back from their Age Group winner miss out.

Its great to see more normal slots as it was getting almost too hard to qualify.

Another option would also be making some slots just for first timers to kona so some new faces get a chance rather then the repeat offenders.

Or also how about making legacy lower perhaps 8 races, and recognising those athletes in order to boost numbers, there would be a lot of women on that basket who have not done Kona also.

Start with the Slowtwitch Kona Party!

As a Legacy entrant, this year (2022) will likely be my only time to do the race. By the time I really started to look for accommodations (about 6 months ago), Waikoloa was the only reasonable alternative in terms of cost. I didn't want to pay $500/night during race week for a place in town that will rent for $125/night any other time of the year.

I suspect that next year, prices in Waikoloa will creep up as well. So far, I haven't heard any stories of Vrbo/AirBnB cancellations and re-bookings at a higher price for places in Waikoloa........

(I did get lucky and found direct flight round trip airfare LAX to KOA for $300 :)...but rental cars are so expensive)

Taking this further, have the men race an event centered at Waikoloa and the women out of Kona. And rotate that between the years. Honu 70.3 is in Waikoloa and just double up that course (two loops of each....albeit maybe a different run course that just sticks to the road shoulder out to QueenK and back 2 loops). Or you can run the bike course from Waikoloa to Kona back to Hawi, back to Waikoloa.

One gender gets the traditional Kona course, one gender gets the Honu course. Then both venues get fully used.

Or maybe I don't care since I have raced the original Kona course and if I do an Ironman in Kona again (a gigantic iffffffff) I could care less which course thy put me on. But notionally that solves the accommodation problem by making Waikoloa area a viable location to stay with an event that is going on there.

I thought one solution is that if you race kona this year, you don't get to race for 4 more years (basically you get one trip inside each age group that you age into). This would allow for more new blood at the race every year, and the reason this is important for Ironman is because the more people who get to Kona, they come home and inspire more others to go so it becomes a virtuous cycle. The same person who goes 8 times in 10 years can only inspire so many.

Personally I am OK when women finishing further from their age group winner getting a slot, because inherently being a woman and doing this sport is much harder than for males. I can go for a run in the woods, in the dark, in strange cities, any time I want, but my sister or wife can't. And many women I know literally will not hit the road solo and 95% of my lifetime miles are solo. Men can get to the start line of every workout more easily than women. Societal barriers are lower for us, so even though on the surface we may think the women's field is less dense, a big part of the competition being a woman triathlete is getting to the start line of each workout and if you can't get to those workout start lines because of societal barriers, the depth of field will be different than for males. So generally I support any move to make womens' sport more accessible and to me that includes Kona slots

Perhaps texas is the NA championship?

IN some of these events we will see 55 slots for everyone and 100 for women, so that will be an allocation of 35 for males and 120 for females. In most race female participation is around 30%. Can anyone else see this is a bit of an over compenstion!

I think a reasonable amount of women in tri slots is ok, but why does it have to be a female race day and a male race day? Lets mix it up on both days.

Ironman you have lost me, I am doing Kona this year then I am done, I'm going to do some bucket list race like Roth and Alcatraz, I might try do some ITU worlds even, they have never meant much to me as too easy to qualify for, but hey why not now.. My achievement battling to qualify 2 x for kona is now diminished. PTO is talking up a 200km championship, that might be cool, but for me Ironman is now a joke. I agree that it was getting too hard to qualify and more slots is great, but you have got this wrong with just how easy this now will be for Females in the sport v the challenge for Males.

$500.00 seems like a bargain, I just paid $670.00/night for an apartment in Lake Placid for 2023

And lake placid is a way better course than Kona IMO.

I doubt that increasing the number of Kona spots changes the experience the race itself, but it does detract from the accomplishment. Among my triathlete friends and acquaintances, only a couple have qualified for Kona. On the other hand, I’m constantly meeting someone who has done a 70.3 WC. So while I’m happy for the extra people that will get to do Kona, I do feel like the expansion takes something away from the whole thing. .

I don't think it does. We probably have 5x the number of people doing the sport worldwide versus 1992 (20 years ago) so just because there are more slots now does not reduce Mark Allan or PNFs accomplishment when in theory it was easier to get to Kona relative to overall global field which is larger now....so why not more slots?

I agree, the slot difficultness has become way too hard v the early years as way more people do the sport. It is more the amount of slots for females now is a bit too high, I think the total number of slots is ok, but we have 30% of participants worldwide being female having access to 50% of slots and the 70% male having access to the other 50%. I understand we can adjust things to support women into IRONMAN but this is just a little too far.

I hate to break this to you, but...

I'm missing something then....So we are worried about women participation numbers in Kona but at the same time expecting Kona slots to roll through an entire age group?

You misunderstand the point.

They are moving the additional women's slots to the events where it makes sense to do so based on a combination of factors, including but not limited to: ability to fill the Kona field; historic female participation levels at that event; and whether that event is already sold out for 2022 or 2023.

Ultimately it's about having roughly the same number of slots for both men and women, regardless of participation volume. It brings Kona in line with say, Boston, in terms of its qualification standards for men and women.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Simple algebra:

If women have been 33% of the Kona field, then male participation will increase by 50%, and female participation will increase by 200%.

As a male, I really don’t care how many women get to compete on Thursday, although as a person booking a hotel room, rental car, etc., it does come at a cost.

Haha I missed a decade. I must be feeling 46 today rather than 56 lol

Yup. Which is why it's critical that there's infrastructure developed to help ensure people can stay in many locations. There's finite resources at play here.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

About a week ago a lot of surprised and very happy Legacy athletes received invites to the 2023 race. Many of them had only reached the 12 races recently and were not expecting to race until 2024/2025. There must be more Legacy slots now.

Still significantly more selective than Boston.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I think you’re actually onto something with the cruise ship idea. My kids would dig that. Just have boats ferrying people to and from shore.

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It seemed like a good idea at the time. . .

Standards aren’t the same if some races have 120 spots for women, and other races have 20. I’m not following the reasoning of why adding 30 extra spots to every race would lead to them rolling through all the age groups, but adding 100 extra spots won’t lead to the same thing. Dividing them between all eligible races would lead to 3ish extra slots per AG vs 10ish extra spots per AG if they only go to select races. Regarding historic women participation in the race, I assume that means races with more women get the extra spots? If that is the case I’m surprised by some of the selections and some of the races left out.

It’s a no brainer. All inclusive. Plenty of room. Only need 1 with lots of boats to shuttle people. And the after race parties could be epic.

I’m needs to figure out a bike valet in town for people to leave their bikes and check them out during the week.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

From what I understand, in must jurisdictions, cruise ships cannot operating as floating hotels at a random location where passengers board at the location, stay on ship and disembark at that location on a daily basis. The ship has to leave and go somewhere and come back to the port of embarkation. I don't know the rules in Hawaii, but I would bet that they don't want cruise ships (in general) just floating there and stealing hotel nights from ground based hotels who pay all the local taxes and employ people locally.

In effect, the revenue from having a two day kona then goes to Carnival Cruise lines versus local economy. That's not the point of a two day Kona from the angle of the island government. They don't want to shut themselves down for a second day of racing and give all the revenue to a cruise line company!!!

Experience of 1: when i broke up with Ironman it felt liberating until it didn't.

the problem: I went and did some other races and they sucked. Like they really sucked! One thing Ironman gets right is race production.

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@rhyspencer

No offense, but this is just stating the obvious .........................

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Ironman is the best triathlon race promoter at scale in the world. The fact that it gets so much stick around here shows how much of a silo slowtwitch.com/forums can be. Us twitchers can't seem to admit to ourselves that Ironman will and forever own the market and that triathlon is a participation and not a consumer driven sport.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Help me to understand the last sentence. I understand your argument that training is harder for women (inter alia because of danger when alone on the streets) but why is the sport more accessible for women if there are more slots.

Whatever. It is not my opinion vs. yours.
It is a fact that the IMWC for AGs that we experienced back in the day, when there were no more than 2000 athletes overall, will never be the same. Staying in Waikoloa, even Hilo, takes away all the Kona/Ali’i Dr. experience the previous days. For those who had the chance to live it, they know what I mean.
If it was already a drafting fest, think about it from now on. Impossible to do your own race. It will become an IM fair, not an IM WC. But I am fine with it. Happy to have been and done it before it became a $$ focused event. Never the $$ cost of the experience had been an issue before. Now, you have people who already paid the Kona slot resigning because of the $$ factor, not athletic performance. But again, IM is not mine. Happy to play by their rules, or if not, I will just not go back again. Happy with it once more.
As for the ladies division, great they have their 100% own race… until they reach the same numbers that ruined the male’s race that we are talking about. In the meantime, enjoy it!
Regarding the comment on my nickname, you just showed the kind of person behind yours. Shame on you.

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STRAVA INSTAGRAM

I got no problem with the champs staying in Kona - or moving annually to different parts of the world. But it looks like they are staying in Kona and that is OK with me.

I do think it spells the end of my chances of getting there though. I have been edging closer and closer for a number of years and stand a really good chance of getting a slot at IM Lanza next year. But looking at the prices my friends have had to pay to go this time I just cannot justify speding the money to go. I can afford it but its just so selfish to spend such a large amount of money on me and my dream when I know I cannot afford to take family and make it the family holiday. Its just too much money for us all to go. My friends who are going are saying its absolutely absurd the money they have spent on getting there, accommodation and hire cars. One of them could literally buy his own car with the money he is spending on the rental for two weeks! Its absurd!

I think its really short sighted of Ironman to think you can put more people in an event that is alreay struggling to accommodate the athletes and their families. The costs are just going to become prohibitive. I think Kona will become the event only the really rich can go to - which perversly will make it more exclusive and attractive if you can afford it! Of course that also gives Ironman the opportunity to charge even more $$$ for the race and anything else they can make money from. Hell they might even charge you for your real estate in T1 soon!

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

That's a very good way to put it.

Also, it appears the race has turned from Rich People's Championship to Superrich or Rich and Desperate People's Championship.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Great move.

Golf tournament go for 4 days.

Kona 2 races over 3 days is fantastic

I’m confused.
They are leaving men race essentially same number of racers.
Women expanding.
So less total racers on the course each race day.

When I first saw the headline I thought…oh, gonna grow the field to capacity for both days.
Truly expand the slots.
If the course can handle 2,000 - offer 2k (or whatever the number is) on both days for each gender.

That’s not the case I’m gathering?

This.... I am often amused at the complaints about all things IM. IM puts on a safe and professional race. IM is the standard and 2nd isn't close at this time

Oh will someone please think about the poor Men and all their suffering!

For the female’s in Ironman I would definitely jump on this for 2023. Ironman is always adjusting and changing qualifications and tinkering with the process. I also know that during covid some qualified athletes had the option of racing 2022 or 23 in Kona so the race was locked in for 23. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 2024 it is moved.

Ironman had a fair process of allocation of slots based on % participation, this wasn’t sexist, it was fair and equal. If they just increase total slots well that would help everyone to qualify.

We have legacy to support people achieve the dream, lower the standard to 10 for men and 5 for females, and you will gain loyalty and achieve greater opportunity for females to do Kona with that mechanism. No one begrudges a person who applies that huge commitment the opportunity to go to kona.

Its not easy racing 200 people for 5 slots in an age group. Its nice the female age group race will have 50 people chasing 25 slots.
And men work hard, I have three young kids so I train early or late, work 40 hours, do a heap of work around the place, support my partner who stays home to do a wonderful job raising our young children and make sure she get to all her fitness and health sessions. Pretty offensive your comment actually to trivialise the work and role of men. And I’m a school teacher for reference not on some big corporate salary, so yer its not always that easy to make everything happen and it is a grind and a juggle, but I am very lucky to do Ironman as its a passion of mine so I make it work.

Congratulations! Most IM triathletes work a full time job and have a family. You're not special. But you know what, a lot of the women do what you claim to do and DON'T have someone else staying at home to take care of the kids and house, they do that as well. And yet you're complaining about them getting an equal number of spots?! Seriously?!
Again, will someone think about the men?!

It’s not equal. Its disproportionate towards female based on % entered.

Haha! Man you just can't stop revealing yourself can you?!

Cruise ship idea -- I don't know the details but when Jacksonville, FL hosted the Super Bowl they did just that.
Cruise ships to get extra hotel beds.
I would bet they could arrange a deal on the island to get their tax money, etc.

.
.
There were 10 cruise ships in Sydney Harbour for the Olympics and IOC has used that model for multiple Olympics since.
.

That's the IOC and an Olympics. The gulf in the difference is massive here.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I'm looking at can't find.
Is there a published list of how many slots will be allocated to each race for 2023 Kona?

Found it
https://www.ironman.com/im-world-championship-2023-slot

Dude not an appropriate post at all in any forum. Please stop.

Ok. Acknowledged I will remove it. Got a little carried away.

So I was just looking at OBSTRI and the 100 extra slots are going to the races with larger female fields. When I raced IMMT and IMLP in 2016 and 2017, there were over 100 women in my F45-49 AG (and these races are getting 100 slots). I just looked up IMAZ (also getting 100 slots) and there are 151 women so far in the F45-49AG. If there are 10 slots for them from the 100 and the usual 2 or 3 (let's say 3 out of the 55 general slots). So maybe 13 spots for 151 women. As for some of the summer races in 2023 like CDA, IMLP, and IMMT getting 100 slots for women, I am guessing the fields will be well above 150 for the F45-49 AG (just using this AG as an example). The chatter on social media is exploding right now. Women who have been close or in grasp of a slot but haven't had the luck yet are definitely going to sign up for these races. Everyone and their mother will be racing in 2023 to nab a Kona spot. (me too). Myself and two other female friends are already discussing which one to do for 2023. One was retired from the sport and the other wasn't planning on doing another IM until 2024. But now many of us will be racing for sure. This is my speculation. I analyze data for a living for a large healthcare company. I love analyzing this kind of data. More fun! :-)

Ironman is smart to make Kona more accessible to women. I'm tired of having one or 2 slots in my AG and nothing ever rolling down.

And of course, I do sympathize for the men. I want things to be fair for everyone. I hope they don't begrudge us for the big windfall of slots next year.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I agree- I was excited to see the news of dedicated women's and men's races. I think it will benefit the pros the most, they won't have to navigate through or around people and focus on the day.

For me - if I am able to put together a race to my ability, stave off injury, and keep my darn head in the game (which is asking a lot) - I have the potential to crack the top 10 in my age group. I mean I wound up there last year in Waco with a "lighter" field on not my best day for sure. I had resigned myself to staying involved and keeping as healthy as possible and MAYBE being able to get a Kona slot once I hit the 60+ age group when I get there. That's 15+ years away at this point for me.

The news of the extra slots for the women's race in 2023 means that if I have a fighting chance for a slot in one of the courses. Yes, it means it is "easier" for me to qualify but I'll take it. I will admit I was a little giddy with the news and it gave me a real refreshing kick in the butt and shot of motivation to really get to work healing my injuries that I've been fighting all year and get strong for 2023.

Would I still love the pipe dream of getting on the podium for my age group? YES. That will always be in my mind and a goal.

Smart move to jump in for 2023, it may not last like this. It has definitely been hard as you said often 1-2 slots and next to no roll downs. There is usually a couple of gun female athletes in each division too that are repeat qualifiers making it a battle for those in 3-10 to ever get a shot.

I love your post :-)

And I'm so happy to hear that you and many other women are excited about this. You sound passionate and dedicated. I hope you get your slot. I'm now 52 and my biggest challenge is staying healthy and avoiding injury. Getting over PF and hoping 2023 will be my year.

I love your pipe dream! You can do it! As Des Linden said after winning Boston - "just keep showing up"

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

Yes, because who knows what will happen in 2024. If the number of participants and their family are too much for Kona to handle, things could revert back to the single day format and no more extra slots for women.

And it's true, there is always at least one very very very very elite woman in my field who wins. I've raced against former Olympians, former professional triathletes and other women with elite level sports backgrounds. I don't begrudge these women. I embrace the competition (I was less than 15 second behind an Olympic gold medalist in one IM 70.3 - a fun story). I love that IM events draw such amazing female athletes. I find it inspiring to race against some of the best women in the world. That being said, it does make it tough and sometimes impossible for a normal, every-day, very hard-working, female AG athlete who does break the top 3 and top 5 get a Kona spot.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I'm not sure it is suddenly "Easy" - looking at 45-49 (my age group) at Frankfurt this year, it rolled to 23rd place - and that was still a 09:58, on a really hot day with a bike course that has about 5000ft of elevation. M40-44 rolled to place 58 and still had 09:55

You still need to be in the top 8% or so of your age group.

Here's a summary:

https://tri-mag.de/...e-hawaii-quali-sein/

This might be different in the US, of course, but in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Austria etc it's still hard to qualify.

I suspect that the crush for accomodatin, , car rentals, etc might be exaggerated. As a one-day event, Kona attracted athletes and their families, but the island also fills with a LOT of sponsors, industry people, curious onlookers, and enthusiast race watchers who will probably stay away as race week (initially) becomes expensive.

Best post in the thread.
I sincerely hope you can nail that slot.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Aw thanks :-)

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

For about 8-10 years up until 2019/covid when there were 40 spots per race it’s mostly been a lot harder to win a women’s AG than to come 4-6+ roll down on the men’s side.

The allocation has always been ….not even on finishing…but on starters and and has had a participatory element on the lower men’s spots as opposed to a pure competition density within spots.

I’ve always thought they should just allocate based on an index of resistance male/female of 9-10% which is the m/f spread between elite and age group records in kona…but that was never going to happen.

If it’s been tougher for the women for about 8-10 years then I don’t have a problem if it’s a bit easier for a few, plus from a demographic standpoint our sport sort of sucks…time to try something different.

Maurice

Pull your head out of the sand. Simple…. Go to a rental car website or the typical accommodations apps and search - let me know what you come up with.

I have been doing this race for years and sure that is a relatively short time compared to many on this forum. I have seen the evolution of non racing people coming for this event grow to the point that race week is shit show.

I have a lot of EU friends and cannot image how they will continue to prioritize the expense of this race. In the end perhaps it is now a bucket list or occasional race for many. To IM it doesn’t matter as long as they get $$.

Someone else probably beat me to it (I haven't read everything, yet)...
Regarding the above, You are a genius! Perhaps Hilo will need similar treatment?

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I know this is a thread on the event rather than on qualifying methods, but there's also no reason to have age groups in discrete 5 year groups. At a minimum, everyone 40 or 45 and under can be in one big AG. Which means that if there was only 1 slot under normal circumstances, you wouldn't need to win your AG - you'd just need to place top 5-10 in the overall. Its still a tall order, but less variable based on who else shows up that day.

I'm not sure what you'd do about 45+, but I'm sure someone could do some analysis based on finishing times that suggests where the bounds between groups might be.

I don’t disagree. 40-44 and down has been extremely competitive in terms of Both sexes O/A…with often the weakest group being 18-24….having said that getting to kona has been much much easier this year…roll down in a bunch of A/G at STG came down to “put your hand up if you are here” European races due to expense lots of roll downs, apparently placid as well.

But I’ve seen this before 2001 or so with 100 spot races, kona wasn’t that hard to get into, back in the day they had some olympics with spots (Smithers BC????) or in the eighties you just faxed it in!

I don’t personally think the sky is falling with some extra spots on the women’s side, in fact I would say this is a 180 turn compared to previous PE or foreign ownership with regards to promoting women’s sport.

Maurice

Those Frankfurt times are always fast but this was a really great way to show it. Hard to believe that it both rolled to 58 in M40-44 and that was still 9:55.

Definitely not the race to go to if your top priority is to qualify.

I'm going to diverge from the present conversation: I don't like this change.

See, I have to work on Thursdays and Fridays, like most people I know. I cannot dedicate adequate amounts of time and alcohol to give the womens race the proper attention it deserves. Therefore, I'll be spending an overwhelming amount of my fandom attention on the mens race, which is completely unfair for the womens.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

100%. Because of my time zone I'll be lucky to catch much more than part of the run. This is why I said IM should alternate years on which sex gets the weekend.

This is a point that we've brought up to IM through appropriate channels as well.

Proof will be in the pudding, obviously. But that's a move we are happy to throw our limited weight behind.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

As long as I can watch full coverage of both races on demand I'll be able to give full attention to both sexes.

Triathlon is a global sport, but women across the world don't have equal access to sport as in some developed countries. Young girls may never have the chance to learn to ride a bike or swim (hard to believe). My mother never got to learn how to ride a bike, even though out of all her brothers and sisters she was the top athlete in school. When she immigrated to Canada in her 20's when she put her kids in swim lessons (my sister and I), she put herself in swim lessons. She still does not know how to ride a bike and until she immigrated to Canada she likely would have never had a chance to learn how to swim. All her brothers got to learn to swim and had bikes. If my mother lived 30 years later, and grew up in Canada, I suspect she would be a Kona Q contender in 50-54 (or minimally I suspect she could be a top class age group marathoner at sub 110 lbs). She is 80-84 and still swims daily. She never ran for fitness. But you can tell she is a natural runner (won all her school girl track meets in the late 50's). Just using an example close to home of women not getting basic access to sport, so the top of the women's global pyramid will look different than the top of the male pyramid.

I was confused by this too. As I now understand it, IM is separating the races into two days and expanding the number of spots for women, but keeping the men’s field the same size. This means the course will be less crowded, which is good for all

But I can’t see it staying this way. If the course can hold 2k people, why wouldn’t IM try to expand the size of both fields? Assuming the two-day format sticks, which seems to be IM’s preference, I expect it will increase the size of both fields over time. I just don’t see IM turning down the money that comes with more entry fees.

Adding extra slots for women, so that the same number of women can race in Kona on their dedicated day as the men will very likely attract more women to register for those races. Especially the women who have consistently placed second and third in the older age groups. I think races like Arizona 2022 and Coeur d’Alene 2023 are going to be exceptionally exciting for a lot of age group women.

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

I think we need to factor in that the sport has grown tremendously over the last 20 years so having 2000 folks at Kona becomes way too exclusive. So splitting it to 2 days make sense. Having 6000 maybe not but perhaps 1500 on each day to reduce drafting. It’s still not that easy to qualify? Usually top 10 at the most for the big age groups

I agree that they shouldn’t give away 100 extra slots for women but women seem to want equality 💁

Yes. I was replying to someone who was going to try other races. Trying to save the disappointment….obviously….

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@rhyspencer

No one said it isn't safe and professional. People are complaining about the dilution and cost.

IM is the standard only if their marketing department convinced you of that, which seems to still be the case un the US. Roth impressed me far more than Kona and it costs half as much for the entry. Same is the case for non-WC races. Other organizers put on races that are just as good, at least if you're looking globally (your bubble may vary).

Dev. More girls globally will learn how to bike and swim because women will be getting more slots for the Ironman World Championship?

I must have misunderstood.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Good point. Another disadvantage for the Saturday-watchers: triathlon-watching can already be boring as hell, and upto now there were at least two races covered at the same time (man/women), which gave some variation, and now you're watching just one. Hours and hours you see but Frodeno or Blumenfeldt on a bike.

From a viewing point of view I’m glad it’s over two days. WC races have big fields and this will allow the camera crew to put more focus on the rest of the field. For example there was barely any coverage of Sanders until later on at St George

I agree it will be tough to watch the womens races which is a shame. Not sure why they don’t do a fri and sun. Watching on a Friday may be a little bit more convenient for people then watching on a Thursday. Although live coverage is only a very small part of Kona.

Some more thoughts: It's a WC, also for AGs. Why do they not regularly give information about the current status of each AG, maybe with a fixed camera showing shots of each leader.

It's an accessibility question. Women's sport grows when accessibility is expanded -- with the most famous of those examples being Title IX in the United States.

So yes, build an on-ramp for women to be able to compete in larger numbers at the premier long-distance triathlon event, and you might get more women and girls participating in the sport period.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Yes, you are probably right they can just cut a deal with the cruiseline to get their money.

But is there any water deep enough in Kailua Kona for a large cruise ship to even dock. Or is the nearest deep enough water the port in Kawaihai? (in other words how do people get on and off cruise ship to do daily stuff fast enough?)

More a general reply to this thread, but since the draft fest in Kona is mainly men 20-49, put the male 20-49 championship race on Thursday in Waikoloa and just run it on 2x Honu course.

Keep the Pro championship, women's championship and M50+ on Saturday in Kona,

Go test it out and see if that kills the goose that lays the golden egg or not. By all account a worlds in St.George was pretty good, so why not a race in Waikokloa and one in Kona. The 2xHonu course would be harder than the 1xKona course and eliminate the bulk of drafting which is devaluing the Kona race anyway. Any you could expand slots a bit for M20-49 who are the biggest part of the market.

I think you meant M30-59 these days…

St George was an excellent single year stop gap. And there should always be a full there IMO. But don’t start mucking with the golden goose. Once you do, it’s near impossible to re-capture it.

Moving to two days doesn’t change it much. They just need to be proactive to solve the lodging and logistical challenges.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Or...

Just keep the race as it is. Seems like only thing that needs to be done with expanded days...figure out shuttle service from Waikoloa (the easiest thing).

AGers will keep coming back, no matter what. Draftfest, non-draftfest.

The only people that are likely "devaluing" Kona in reality is the very small echo-chamber of people here, maybe of course a bit wider.... but probably easy to think the perspective of 10s of people commenting on a thread here on ST speaks for all IM triathletes. Not saying that you believe this, commenting in general.

I can say as N = 1. Racing this year for the first time. Have raced half dozen IMs. Missed narrowly several times. Have done other cool races like Norseman (black shirt!). So pumped to finally go. Only interested in traditional course. No interest in alternative. Don't care what day I race (I'm racing Thursday and perfectly fine with that). Don't care if draft-fest as I will be riding my own race. Don't care about "historical vibe" the town had. I'm excited for whatever vibe it will be. Because I don't know any better. I'm staying in town pre-race and moving to Waikoloa resort the day after. Know it's going to be $$$$$$$ but have saved for this. Am fine if this is my one and only Kona.

Ironman is smart. I'm sure they know the funnel is still quite large for drawing (and maximizing revenue on) a few thousand people to race Kona each year... still a ton of people like me. If my business - man, any business...the question is how are you growing? How are you expanding past the narrowing of audience that has raced there 2, 4, 6, 8X times? You just keep those people... that's the way you go out of business.

You don't have to change the race. Just add different people.

Yep - I don't get it.
Expand the field. Fill the course. Both race days should be done at full capacity.
Now, did they decide that full capacity number they used in the past recently was really too full?
I dunno.

The cruise ships don’t dock in Kona. They anchor out in the water about a mile or so offshore and little shuttle boats go back and forth. The shuttle boats drop off and pick up at Kailua Pier. So you can see the problem there.

The other issue with cruise ships is that they cannot operate as hotels without special approval from the local jurisdictions. Obviously, this has been done at other places so it’s a matter of paperwork, bureaucracy, and money.

Nevertheless, the issue of getting people on and off the cruise ship could prove insurmountable.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Dude, check your privilege. I am also a male school teacher and I know I have advantages that my non cis-male (and straight) colleagues do not have.

Yes, we work hard, but our race is shorter and comes with more aid stations along the way.

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

So, is this just for 2023 or will this be the case moving forward? Maybe this was somewhere and I missed it......

SO happy it's back in Kona!

On my run today I was thinking about the men racing Saturday. Do you think they will be out spectating Thursday? I would imagine that a lot will be staying out of the heat and not out late.

The Saturday race will have everyone from Thursday’s race as well now.

Is there a reason they couldn't make the two days further apart? Meaning each race on a Saturday a week or two apart to alleviate some if the congestion. I don't have any numbers, but assuming most people don't have immediate family racing on Thursday and Saturday.

I have never been to Kona, I hope to go someday, so have no idea on the logistics and capacity of doing two expos, races, events, etc. Versus a Thursday/Saturday which I am assuming other than race day everything is there for one event.

Quick question. If they are having two completely separate days for the men and women. Why are they still mixing the qualification slots? I assume the field size would be the exact same for both days so wouldn't that mean there should be say 2k slots available for the women and 2k slots available for the men?

It'd be cost prohibitive to produce and have vendors out there for that amount of time. You'd be looking at two solid weeks of that space.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Long-term, I think that's the goal they are going to move towards.

The 2023 qualification cycle having races set up that way factors in a variety of items: 1.) none of the races that were selected for additional women's slots were sold out already, so it is a sales tactic; 2.) they are races that generally see a much higher female participation rate, so you are going to have more women who are likely to take a Kona slot if they are given the option, and 3.) most of those races are really, really hard either due to the course itself or conditions.

I think we will see evolution of this over time -- my guess would be that more than half the circuit would have additional women's slots for the 2024 qualification cycle, with an eye toward evenly dividing them in the future (e.g., I would imagine that all US and Canada races would have more slots for women, as opposed to say Poland and Kazakhstan -- but work towards offering an even split as participation grows.)

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Well…but then its just turning into WC of those who can afford it and not just the best. Its also my first one. I KQ in 2019 when apparently it was still tough and legit unlike now ;)

The real problem is $$$. I have booked a small house in Waikaloa area in 2019 for $4k for 2 weeks. Kept rolling the reservation…until a month ago when i got an email from VRBO that my rented house has a new owner. From $4k it turned into $9k. I tried to find anything cheaper even far away. I didnt. On top - i have to travel half of the world to race there. Crying looking at the prices. And the strengthening of USD as final nail into the coffin.

Granted - it was never cheap. But with double the field its absurd. Several super strong AGs i jnow dropped the slots due to the cost. It may be a WC going forward but i doubt it will be the WC for the best.

Yes, the standards will change.

There will be, in 2023, a race for x-thousand men on one day and another race for x-thousand women on the next. More women racing on Thursday changes very little for the men racing on Saturday. And the best-trained, fastest athletes will still win.

And yes, at some races, there will be lots and lots of slots for women to race at Kona. But guess what? With women no longer racing on the same day as the men, there will also have to be MORE slots for men as well, to fill out the field that was previously 25-30% women on the single day race.

More slots for everybody. Very cool.

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

 If we want everything fair why don’t we also split evenly between every age group so every age gets 5 slots, so the 18-24 get the same as 35-39 and same as 65-69, every age group gets 5 slots. How is it fair that the 18-24 and the 65-69 usually only get one slot,while the 35-39 have 8 slots at some races? I feel the 18-24 category for too long have been discriminated based on age and by doing this we will attract more younger people to ironman and also older people. The core market biggest age groups of in the 30-50 range should embrace the change and see this as fair and equitable, and we should definitely change from the unfair % base allocation that has served this sport for 30 years.

IM Frankfurt 2019:

M 45-49 KQ: 9:12 to 9:42, tenth place 9:42, twentieth place 9:55.

F 45-49 KQ: 10:23 to 10:41, tenth place 11:56, twentieth place 12:42.

,
.
Here we have the idea that Ironman IS triathlon.It isn't and women have had no barrier in participating in the sport of triathlon "from the sport of triathlon".

There are hundreds of thousands of women competing in the sport around the world and maybe,just maybe, women in general aren't as obsessed by Ironman as the men are. Just look at the numbers at the Nice 70.3 Worlds when there were different race days for men and women.Despite Ironman's effort at throwing slots at the women via the Women for Tri initiative the end number were still heavily skewed towards the mens race.The women in the sport just didn't want to go.

For years ,the Danskin Tri Series championed the womens only racing scene and seriously they did more for womens participation than Ironman will ever do and yet what happened to that series? Sometimes I think we just have to accept that,just because the idea of equal numbers in Hawaii is awesome,the reality is that there will most likely never be enough genuine and sustained interest from the women in spending stupid amounts of money to go race in the money pit that Kona has become.They seem to be waaaaay smarter than that.

Macca through his Phoenix Foundation/Mana Sport races,The Brownlees thorough their foundation and my old mate,Kiwi ex-pro Brendon Downey through his Triathlon Pink Series here in Oz will do far more for the growth of women in the sport of triathlon than Ironman having two days of racing in Kona.

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No.

What I said is that you take the premier event, give additional access, and it helps bring the bottom up.

There's two ways to build things (frankly, same as building fitness): you can either push from the bottom, or pull from the top.

The examples you give are those at the ground level. Which is good! So is this. They're both good things.

Also keep in mind that those WFT slots are infinitely more likely to be taken in North America for North American races (which is why that list of 17 events is so heavily skewed.)

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Thailand Ultras is on the money. There are no discriminatory barriers to women doing triathlon. IM has tried to balance spots on the basis of numbers per AG to try and ensure equitable opportunity.

This results in some AG having one slot. Opening up two race days will provide many more slots to women, but thye may not fill the race.

Equality of opportunity can be looked at many ways. Age/Gender formula used in running is pretty good:

M 48 19 min 5 K 75 %
W 48 21:30 5 K 75 %

Sounds ok. In the bold new world of equality for a World Championship


M 48 9:58 20 th in AG no slot no chance
W 48 13:30 20 th in AG slot go to WC

Equal opportunity for triathlon and equal opportunity for a WC are not quite the same thing.

Except given the two day format, that woman going to Kona has no real bearing on the man going to Kona. Separate days for men and women means there's no reason to not have equal numbers of starters.

No it doesn't

the women's AG race will get a lot slower though at FOP all the way through. And if the Mens race gets some more slots those sub 10 men might get more slots so everyone wins.

It was never a WC for amateurs. It's more akin to qualifying for Boston. It's only a WC for the pros.

Exactly!
2k slots each day.

Honest question…
Would they fill 2k slots for women? (hopefully!)

As an older male who has used Triathlon for fun and fitness with a goal, testing limits as I age, for some reason this new development has removed my ambition to return to Kona.

I doubt that will break WTC's heart.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I keep reading many comments on social media from men stating that it's no longer a WC, the field will be watered down, there is no challenge to qualify anymore, they don't want to race in Kona anymore, shaming WTC (not you Michael). Here are my thoughts on this:

• General kona slots are going from 40 to 55 in most races. Before I started doing this in 2016, there used to be 50 slots. And if I understand correctly maybe 10 years ago there were much more slots and most men and women placing in the top 3 or top 5 usually got a slot to Kona. So 55 slots will still be very challenging for the men. Will still be challenging for women in races w/o those 100 extra female slots.
• 
  
• In a race like upcoming IMAZ, there are 151 women registered in the F45-49 AG (using this as just an example). If they get 3 slots from the 55 and 10 from the 100 slots, then the top 13 women get a slot to kona. Is that so bad? Maybe, maybe not. But if someone is going to complain about a 13th place woman who gets a kona slot, I have seen the men's 50s groups roll down quite a bit. I volunteered at IMMT in 2014 helping out with Kona registration. I will never forget the men 50-54 rolling down because a friend in 11th place would have gotten a roll down but he was not at the awards ceremony.
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• And for those who have been complaining about the purity of the WC event (not you Michael), I would rather focus on celebrity and sponsorship slots given out to people who did not qualify. Get rid of them first if purity is such a big deal. You can't do the Olympics just because you are a celebrity!
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• Back to the 100 extra slots for women in some races. I personally would rather see something like 20-25 dished out over more races instead of a select few. Then most female AGs get about 5-6 slots each (including general slots). That makes up for the years where we only got 1 slot sometimes :-)
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• And if it were up to me, the top 3 or top 5 of each AG (depending on the size) would go to Kona.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I was on the big island in May. It sounded like people were frustrated with the two day format for this year and really hoping it wouldn’t become the trend. The biggest complaints were:
1. The Queen K is the way many people get to and from work. Not being able to get to work twice in a week, especially on a weekday, is problematic.
2. Many locals who used to volunteer no longer want to do so as they see their free labor as a key free input into creating a profitable race for someone else’s bottom line.

No idea how pervasive this type of thinking is, but if it becomes more widespread that can’t be good for the race or community.

From a fairness standpoint this is difficult for most people to understand but it is absolutely the right thing to do. I agree with you that providing greater access to Kona for women will grow participation by women in the sport. Eventually it will regulate to be more even with men as participation grows but for right now this is absolutely the right thing to do. At the IM WC in St. George there were about 700 women vs about 2,000 men. Unfortunately those disparities are not uncommon in long-course triathlon. Things need to change.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

The slots previously were distributed by numbers of age group participants starting.
I’m assuming that will still be the case, however, the numbers of age group men starting will come from one pool of slots aiming at the men’s only race at Kona, and the numbers of age group women will come from a different — and at some races larger — pool of slots aimed at the women’s race. And because each gender gets its own race day, there will necessarily be more women’s slots because they are filling up an entire race day.

Basically, the women’s participation gets meted out the same as the men. Two pools of slots not one.

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

That's not how I read it.

For races with 55 normal slots AND 100 women for tri slots, the 55 slots would be distributed as it's always been: normally distributed based on number of starters for men AND women. The 100 slots are strictly for women after the 55 slots have been allocated.

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blog

That's how I'm reading it too. Again using just one Female Age group. They might get 3 slots from the 55. And from the 100 slots, they might get 10 (not sure if they will divide it equally or weight it depending on participants in each AG). So if they get 13, that is a lot. As a female, I would rather see 20-25 extra slots for women like it was done for Nice (a lot of 70.3 races had 25 extra slots for women). Then it's more like a total of 6 slots, not 13.

ETA: I think there is a lot of confusion and different interpretations on the 55 and 100 slots. Heck maybe Steve and I are not fully correct in our thinking of how this will be done.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

That's how I read it too. So out of the 55, you get 10-12 more men's slots and sprinkling of women's slots (3 to 5). Then you add a whole lot more women's slots with the 100.

Correct, normal slots split like always and women slots for women only. In cairns last year there were 185 female entrants the year before 230. The race will have 100 normal slots divided so maybe 65 male 35 female plus 65 special female only slots. So in this case a total of 100 female slots. So if they get even a little boost in entrants and have 250 female participants, 10 in 25 entrants will go to kona! 40% of the race. In the men, they had around 900 entrants, so this year with 65 slots the odds will be 7.2%, still healthy compared to last year when the race had 60 slots only total and a 6% kona chance.

So if you are a female keen to do Kona, get to Cairns, finish, and with a few slots rolling down you are pretty likely to get one.

Right, I hope somebody from Ironman clarifies, but I'm also reading it that way.

~30 to ~35 male slots and ~115 to ~120 female slots.

So, with events getting 55 slots for everyone, they will still have about 30-35 males qualify, and 15-20 females qualify from that number (as usual, based on age group). Then they will have 100 more women qualify out of the 100 slots for women (presumably also based on age-group size).

The exciting things will be seeing:

1) if the female participation increases dramatically in those races with the extra 100 slots
2) how do the spots roll down for women in those 120 slot races
3) how the two-day event format plays out in Kona (as competitive races, as a logistical tourist venue, and with the community impact)
4) if this is something they keep in the future or if the experiment is tweaked or ditched

Would be very surprised if 40% want to go. There will rather be a lot of non-taken slots.

Thats for sure! I cant see manly people who go this year going back right away after the bank account drained. And, the same goes for other who will qualify, a no answer for financial reasons will be common.

Also we have three years of qualifying racing in 2022, this years race will be one of the fastest average times in history. To get on stage this year will be an incredible achievement. In 2024 the race we will be very different .

Im not sure ironman understand the power of scarcity and how that creates value.

One race, mass start. That's how it should be.

This is clearly just a revenue decision. Same as introducing swim waves. Just another way of getting more entries under the guise of safety.

We all realise of course that women racing on a Thursday excludes half the (working) world of watching them race based on time zones.