No.

What many people seem to forget is that the geometry on a Tri bike has allot to do with the muscles that we use on the bike, and try to keep others fresh(er) for the run. Sure, a forward seat post will make you more comfortable on an aerobar - that is not allowed on a "road" bike but for TT events. I doubt a wind tunnel will care if you have a 72 or 78 degree seat tube.

My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3 - but on a long course I will have a faster time on the Cervelo....will never ever win a sprint on it though (mostly due to shifting systems though)...so many parameters that are not equal...tri bikes and road bikes...

I wonder what my Cervelo would ride like with a drop bar...hmmm...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Isn't it a general rule that riders know very little about the equipment they are riding? Now, if Johan said that, well...

Remember the application for which they are referring, a short 3K prologue where the last 1/2 involves a steep out of the saddle climb. At that speed the difference will be small and the Discovery riders thought that the ergonomics of the bike for climbing outweighed the small differences in drag at those speeds.

It is not the bike as much as the position that the bike can put you in. I can attest to the difference after this weekend.

There are a lot of factors that can play a role:

Length of course

Type of course

Bike handling skills

Fit and positioning

However a very general answer to your question is NO Tri frames are not that much faster than road frames for most Age group athletes.A lot of people who are riding Tri frames with steep angles would be faster on a road bike with aerobars on short,hilly and twisty courses.

As for the long flat courses a good rider who can stay on the drops with a flat back will probably be faster than a mediocre rider who can not stay in the aero position on a tri bike without coming out of the position every 10 miles for couple minutes

It is funny to see people on their tri bikes but can not hold a straight line or descent on courses like todays Tour of California.

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I see obsessed people.

Yeah, dont get me going on the idiots who were all over the Moo course who could not handle a ball point pen, let alone a bike on aerobars in one of the many corners.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

You 'gonna run your ultimate with some shorties on it at Lake Placid or bring the P3? Just kidding, I know you're riding the P3, but I am seriously considering doing Lake Placid on my Vortex with T2+ as I have it DIALED and feel pretty good on it instead of my Guru (a no brainer to use at IM FL).

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I have seen many people at IMLP on road bikes...tons...let see, my Ultimate now weighs under 15lbs, with Record, my P3 weighs in at just over 21lbs with Record...hmmmmm. I am seriously considering brining the Ultimate - then again, I may just get a new custom Blade.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

yep, I think you are right. a pro rider with, what shall we say, about 20-30,000 km per year for x years will know little about their equipment... me thinks not. don't forget that Johan was a pro rider too, so where did he or Bjarne or Sainz learn so much? probably by being pro riders...

I guess my subject line is being misunderstood. It was meant as a sarcastic statement and not as a question.

So many people are hooked on aerodynamics that it's interesting that a Discovery rider would admit their road frame isn't really that much slower than their TT bikes.

I take it as in a real world application, ie, with wheels, wind, rider, that the difference between the aerodynamics of a Trek Madone (road) frame and TTX (TT) make a marginal if any difference.

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TheBikeRacer.com

Dont discount the fact thay Pro's dont sit there and question every gram and every aspect of their rides - they have people to do that for them. While we have the luxury to weigh the benifit of every gram, they ride what they are paid to ride, what a wind tunnel tells someone, and what they are given. Most pro's have no idea what they are on - just cause your hero Lance wants to micro manage the weight of his shift cable housing does not mean that they all have the time, nor desire to do the same (and to that dont forget that Lance wins only the Indy 500 of races, the rest of the Peloton has a season they look at) I never did and never will give Lance as much credit as I do Lemond, Indurain, Merckz (sp) and Hinnault...they entered a race a won - Lance, he only shoots for the big show (that makes him smarter I guess)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

"Lance, he only shoots for the big show"

I guess you weren't there when he outsprinted the field at the TdG a few years ago...w/Cipo in the field.

And my-oh-my how we forget how he chased an LBL win for many years...

"My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3"

I would be very curious how you determined that, Chip. I'm having visions of some swiss cheese logic. I hope you can dispel them.

"My Litespeed Ultimate is a MUCH faster bike than my P3"

I would be very curious how you determined that, Chip. I'm having visions of some swiss cheese logic. I hope you can dispel them.

Not to speak for Chip here, but perhaps he meant "I am much faster on my Ultimate than on my P3"

Personally, I feel more comfortable and faster on my Vortex than on my Saber, but still use the Saber for tris so as to save my legs.[u][/u]

....if I were going to do an Ironman I'd do it on my road bike with a pair of clip-on aerobars so I could change positions over the distance....that's what I do when on long training rides as the discomfort starts to come in......I'd go part of the way on the aero bars, part on the hoods, part on the drops....thats what I reaslistically think would be best for ME.

So it does not surprise me so many people use road bikes....actually Ironman Lanzarote was all raod bikes as far as I saw from TV coverage.....but that has real climbs eh?!

So, if there's any sort of hills on the course a road bike is best anyway cos you can change gears easier and the bike weighs less....I can go uphill better on my 7kg road bike than my 9kg TT bike....no question.....

I think TT geometry bikes should be used for TT's (up to 60km or whatever it is) and not for triathlon....just move the saddle forward if you are obsessed with seat angles and how it affects running legs..

So to answer the question, in my view, a road bike could actually be faster for most people cos you will have done most of your training on the road bike and you will thus be more in tune with it and more comfortable on it and thus you will perform better = faster

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

"feel" does not equate to actual speed.

If you are faster on a road bike without aerobars than you are on a TT bike with aerobars...your aero position sucks. It isn't the bike.

Not trying to be a jerk...

I'm just willing to bet that if i have you do a 10 mile TT on each bike, as hard as you can go...that you'll have a faster time on the TT bike, regardless of how you feel on each bike.

"I think TT geometry bikes should be used for TT's (up to 60km or whatever it is) and not for triathlon....just move the saddle forward if you are obsessed with seat angles and how it affects running legs..."

I guess we're going to dispense with all of the tri/TT bike wins at all distances then. Outside of ITU, Nice, Lanzarote, and like races...I'm willing to bet a paycheck the majority of wins these days are ridden on TT/Tri bikes. Heck...lets check the setups of the top 10, or even 25 finishers at Kona last year...or Fl...or IMNZ...or IM Australia....

Sorry, Stephen...maybe road bikes work better for you where you are...but I would be careful about extrapolating things to a generalization...

Hey TriBriGuy....hope you're well....

Anyway, I did state...."in my view....and for ME" in this so its just a personal opinion....albeit one that will have a lot of flak directed at me.....

You said: "....the majority of wins these days are ridden on TT/Tri bikes. Heck...lets check the setups of the top 10, or even 25 finishers at Kona last year...or Fl...or IMNZ...or IM Australia...."

I bet these same people would still win on road bikes.....basically they are paid to ride the Tri bikes by sponsors so I dont think we can ever get the real truth of which really is faster.

I bet Lance could kick everyones ass on a road bike if he did Kona.....but he wouldnt cos Trek would give him the latest Tri/TT frame so people like me think....gotta get that one...its a fast bike....rather than the truth....he's a fast cyclist! heh heh heh

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

....and I say this as a typical "gotta buy the latest and best to make me faster" person.....I was in that trap for ages!!!! Now I buy for other reasons....

I have just bought a new frame and forks - Storck CD 1.0 - road bike cos I wanted a change from the Orbea Orca I had for two years. I sold that on and got the Storck....but not cos I thought it would make be faster....it won't.

I have come to realise that I only need better legs and do what Eddy Mercxx said....."don't buy upgrades, ride UP grades" heh heh

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

" bet these same people would still win on road bikes....."

Only if the other people are also on road bikes. Put Sindballe on a road bike, no aerobars...no way he sets the Kona course record last year...and Faris rides away with the bike split...

I think the truth is fairly definitive...but some can't see the forest for all the trees out there...

i meant road bike with aerobars though...

.....the original question was about frames rather than the unquestionable value of aerobars.....road bike with aerobars vs TT/Tri bike and aerobars.....and about normal people rather than pro's....seeing as the question came from a forum user...

I think Sindballe on a road bike with aerobars would have set the course record cos he was on his game.....but then this is something we shall never know.....

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Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

Danielson's comment certainly surprises me as I've certainly thought that aero tubing should make a difference, which is much more of a consideration than the seat tube angle. According to the wind tunnel tests from Martin and on Cervelo's website an aero tubed frame is about a minute faster over 40 kms. There aren't many road bikes other than the Cervelo Soloist that have genuine aero tubing so on this point alone most tri bikes should be a bit faster in theory assuming they have aero tubing. Then there is the issue of rider position, would would be more aero on a tri bike.

My take is that the advantages of a tri bike are on flat couses where you can hold the aero position for extended times. Were there are hills and technical courses leave the tri bike home.

Personally, my road bike with clip-ons and my tri bike have always had similiar times at local area sprint tris, but my hamstrings are less fried heading into the run off the tri bike.

Do the top pro's ride the bike the sponoor paid them to ride? How much choice do the pros have within their sponor's lineup? Same question about wheels? If Zipp (just an IE) wants to promote their new disc and the rider what 808s who wins? I would think golden rule would determine the outcome.

I'm just willing to bet that if i have you do a 10 mile TT on each bike, as hard as you can go...that you'll have a faster time on the TT bike, regardless of how you feel on each bike.
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TriBriGuy,

You are absolutely right about the 10 mile TT on a reasonably flat course but there are not that many tri bike courses like that.

As for the pros riding TT frames as I said before it all depends what type of race they are in and how much they are being paid to ride that equipment!!!

2005 Phuket Triathlon top three guys were riding road geometry bikes with short aerobars like George and Tom yesterday.

On most of the courses AG competitors would be much faster on a road bike geometry with aerobars and little steeper seat angle but than who is going to buy all those expensive bikes and wheelsets.

I think everybody wants to look fast even if they are not.

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I see obsessed people.

Come to NJ. Here's the set of races I did in 2005:

Duathlon (Delaware): one large bridge, rest dead flat 18 miles.

Triathlon (MD): dead flat 56 miles.

Triathlon (NJ): dead flat 11 miles.

Triathlon (NJ): flat to slightly rolling 16 miles.

Triathlon (NJ): dead flat 20 miles.

Duathlon (NJ): dead flat 20 miles.

Triathlon (NJ): dead flat 8 miles (shortened from usual dead flat 12).

Triathlon (NJ): one huge hill halfway through 14 miles.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

A road bike is faster if it's under the right guy or girl.

Is a NASCAR faster than a Formula 1 Car?

It really isn't the best question to ask since both vehicle are intended for, and optimzed for, different applications.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Is a NASCAR faster than a Formula 1 Car?
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Depends...Who is driving????

Tom,

What kind of bikes you used for Nice and Phuket and why?

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I see obsessed people.

Road bike with shorties for Nice because I am a poor descender. I used a Cervelo R2.5 with a compact crank:



Laguna Phuket I used a Cannondale Ironman 2000 with standard tri set-up. Looking back, the next time I do Lagune Phuket (hopefully this year) I will use a standard tri set-up with a compact crank.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Actually, it is not a bad anology if you throw in UCI rules. Cycling pros are riding around on NASCAR like bikes (maxed out to the rule, but the rule is severly limiting). In the tri world, Softride, B9, and Titanflex are starting to take advantage of more unlimited rules (ala Formula 1), but either marketing or lack of market has limited this growth.

"feel" does not equate to actual speed.

If you are faster on a road bike without aerobars than you are on a TT bike with aerobars...your aero position sucks. It isn't the bike.

Actually what I meant was I feel more comfortable and am faster as a result of that. But for an olympic distance or half IM triathlon, or one with very little hills, the Saber is awesome, and yes, probably faster. For long hauls, I think comfort will play a larger role though in speed attained.

The comment that started this thread.

Tom Danielson. "I ran a regular road bike -- we did a little wind tunnel testing and both have similar drag coefficients," Danielson explained.

Does he mean with him on board or not?

Does it ever occur to anybody that the difference might have something to do with the respective power outputs of the riders? If George rode a beach cruiser and I rode a TT bike, would people conclude that beach cruisers are faster?

Just a thought...

He had shorty bars on his road bike.

Folks...lets not forget that we jumped off on comments made regarding equipment choice for a 3k prologue effort. The wattage figures and time differences for that kind of effort are not easily extrapolated for the kinds of riding we do as triathletes.

It was a 5 minute effort. I'm guessing avg watts for those guys was probably on the order between 5-600 watts...significantly above what they would hold for much longer efforts. The time differences for the same rider for road and TT setups would be measured in seconds...a time amount easily made up in a missed corner or some other element.

When these guys head for longer TT efforts...they almost unanimously opt for TT setups...


I'll risk a bit of irritation by suggesting that the reason so many AGers are uncomfortable on their tri bikes is NOT because the bikes are inherently uncomfortable...but because they are so ill fit on the bike. And worse...when they try to 'fix' the problem, they almost always opt for a LESS 'aggressive' (meaning the common ST parlance where 'aggressive' means 'low'), more upright position. No wonder they are 'slower' on their tri bikes...

"the reason so many AGers are uncomfortable on their tri bikes is NOT because the bikes are inherently uncomfortable...but because they are so ill fit on the bike. And worse...when they try to 'fix' the problem, they almost always opt for a LESS 'aggressive' "

I agree, but think that you're putting the cart before the horse. A large number of MOP AG'ers don't have the body flexibility to be riding aggressive on a tri bike over an extended period of time. People with neck or lower back problems may also find an aggressive tri postion to be uncomfortable. Even with a proper FIST style fit some people still will not be comfortable. Hence that's why they start using spacers and upward pointing stems in order to ride more upright. These people would be better off in the first place on a road bike with clip-ons.

Lets not forget that the prologue finished up an extremely steep climb where the riders were going out of the saddle at (for them) slow speeds. Leipheimer dropped it into his 42 to climb. He might have meant that at the speeds on the climb the small aero difference was offset by the more comfortable climbing position.

Also remember who won? Leipheimer was on a full aero rebadged Walser. Julich was on a Cervelo Soloist Carbon but with a full aero bar setup. Cancellara rode a P3C.

As for road bikes being better for most tri courses I would argue that most triathlons arent technical at all. Its just that many age group competitors have terrible bike handling skills on any bike that they would choose. For the long time trials in the tours which often involve climbs descents and turns riders nearly always go for the full aero setup. I can only think of one triathlon course I raced on in my eleven years of racing that wasnt tri-bike suitable (The Lorne triathlon in Australia went straight up switchbacks on the side of a mountain and came back down again)

Assuming a proper FIST setup, a tri bike should require no more "body flexibility" than a road bike- you are simple rotating your body around the bottom bracket. Body angles don't change. The only difference is the use of neck muscles, which DO take time to adapt. I personally think that the thing that makes people the most universally uncomfortable is being to stretched out in the aero position. Whether you ride slack or steep, you've got to have a short enough cockpit to be able to *rest* your weight on. The more stretched out one becomes, the more strain it puts on the neck, shoulders, and triceps.
One thing that many folks, including myself, are guilty of is not being patient enough to adapt or analytical enough to figure out the real root of a problem. I get frustrated when people tell stories of selling a bike they just bought because it "didn't feel right" or "wasn't fast". Well... why? What about that bike didn't feel right? Was it a fit issue that could have been fixed with a simple stem change or saddle adjustment? Did you buy the wrong size frame? So many factors to consider before jumping to conclusions.

So where does the "run faster" bit come in?

"The only difference is the use of neck muscles, which DO take time to adapt."

The neck is the biggest issue. Some people with hypolordotic cervical spinal curves or disc degeneration may never really be comfortable. Others such as myself (with a couple of moderately degenerating discs)may have to practice regular neck stretches and exercises to make it work.

I'd suspect there are more people too stretched out on aero bars riding road bikes than on tri bikes. At any tri you'll always see people with long tri geometry aero bars on road bikes.