I do think you're taking a much bigger hit on the swim that you think. A 46 min HIM swim, unless the conditions were atrocious, is really slow, and the reality is that swimmers in that range often waste a ton of energy just even keeping that slow pace, so you're likely burning a lot more matches than you think in the swim, hence the 'off' bike.

It's hard to gauge your run target without knowing how well you run an open 5k or HM - if you're only a 1:50 open HM runner, than you'd be running fine, but if you're a 1:35 open HM runner that slows to 2:05 in the HM, something's very off.

70.3 NC will have an incoming tide in a channel, your swim will be BLAZING, take 10mins off your 70.3 LP time easy, it does have a long run up to T1, bike is flat, you should be able to pull off at least a 2:20ish pending no hard winds with that FTP and previous split. It’s a ridiculously easy course, especially for the weakest of the weak swimmers.
Target 83% FTP on the bike see how you feel at the 14, 28, and 42 mile marks. Make some minor adjustments as you feel, what’s sucks about a flat bike course is no real break from pedaling.

I think what the other two posters said about your swim is accurate.

I think you biked too hard. If I understood correctly, you expected to hold the 40 mile power for 56 miles, after swimming for 46 minutes. That seems like expecting too much to me. My suspicion regarding your heart rate is that it was higher normal because had already swum.

My wild assed suggestion would be to reduce the power goal to 170.

My question for you is, how reasonable was the goal of a 2:05 run? With the hindsight of a "good" swim and a bike, maybe that was a bit of a stretch. Also, only having one goal puts you in a binary position. Hit it and feel great; miss it and feel miserable. It might make more sense to set 3 goals for your run. One that you fairly confident you can hit. A second that a little bit of a stretch - like if you're having a really good day. And a third that a real stretch.

I have been at this for 5 years now and can't seem to get it all together for a HIM. I am just an avg MOP 47yo with no big ambitions for a KQ but would like to perform better at HIM. I could use some advice on my bike split and would love to hear what some of the ST experts have to say.

I did Lake Placid 70.3 on Sept 10th and my big goal for the day (outside of getting out of the lake alive) was a sub 2 hour run split and I ended up slugging my way to a disappointing 2:05.

I did a FTP test today to find out just were I am at, I tested 245w/168bpm, I am 5'7" 162#, 3.32w/kg.

For Placid bike split I averaged 178w at 155BPM for a 2:57 split time.

I did not use FTP to determine what power to target for the race. I had only a guess at what my FTP even was going in and didn't want to test before hand either. I went off avg power I held on long rides and especially what I could hold on a hard 40 miler which was 200w at very low 140's HR. Last long brick I did 2 weeks out was 62 miles 2900' elv, at 178w avg HR 139 ran 6 miles off the bike at 8:18 pace 161HR (Open HM HR is low 170's). I felt confident at 175-180w and a 8:30 pace for the run, I actually felt 175-180w was pretty conservative?

I swam 46 minutes at Placid and actually felt like I had a good swim. My Avg HR on the bike at Placid was close to 15bpm HIGHER than what I would avg on my long rides averaging the same power averages. My HR was even throughout the ride too,153 through mile 40 155 for the last 16 miles climbing back into Lake Placid.

I am no faster a swimmer today than I was in 2014, literally. I admit I do not put as much effort into it as the other two and swim volume suffered some in training going into Placid but I got at least 2 swims in a week. I am now starting to realize that if I want to race a solid HIM I need to fix my swim and plan to really focus on it this winter.

Is the swim taking this much out of me? I felt fine on the bike and even on the climbs didn't feel like I was lighting any matches.

I am now thinking of heading down to North Carolina on 10-21 to make another go at it. I have a solid 3 weeks ahead to train and I could some advice on where should I focus my time to have a good run split? What should I shoot for on the bike for NC? I am going to want to crush an open flat bike course like NC has, I could use some feedback on what to target for pwr and HR so I can run well off the bike.

Thank You

I do think you're taking a much bigger hit on the swim that you think. A 46 min HIM swim, unless the conditions were atrocious, is really slow, and the reality is that swimmers in that range often waste a ton of energy just even keeping that slow pace, so you're likely burning a lot more matches than you think in the swim, hence the 'off' bike.

It's hard to gauge your run target without knowing how well you run an open 5k or HM - if you're only a 1:50 open HM runner, than you'd be running fine, but if you're a 1:35 open HM runner that slows to 2:05 in the HM, something's very off.

Is the swim taking this much out of me?

Possibly yes. This is something that has only become apparent to me this season. I've often wondered why I seemed to bike quicker than guys who smashed me in training, spoke to one after a recent 70.3 and he said he struggled on the bike because he felt hammered by the swim, someone else said he struggled on the run because of the swim! I'm like WTF! People are still feeling the pain from the swim on the run!? I'd normally come in 27, 28mins feeling relatively fresh and by km 5 on the bike, my HR is down. I just assumed weaker swimmers had the same experiences, but just went slower. Obviously this isn't the case and I guess the swim is more important than a lot of people think. i.e someone swimming 33mins is 6mins slower than me, but perhaps that could be as much as 10 or 15mins if they are fatigued for the bike.

Quick question(s) for you:
Do you ever bike hard immediately after swimming? How much kicking do you do during your weekly swim workouts?

The higher HR is about adrenaline and probably being rested going into the race. I see higher HRs all the time from my athletes when they are racing.

I do some kick set drills but not a lot. I don't kick much swimming and barely at all in a wetsuit.

Do you have your athletes account for the higher HR in races for pacing? I am used to having a higher HR in racing than training, the difference has been less since I first started. TBH the worst is probably at the swim start it usually takes a good 250-400 yds for me to settle down at the beginning.

BTW I don't feel wiped out after the swim in T1, and for the most part I feel fine on the bike. While my HR is higher in a race I still stay in that high Z2 low Z3 range.

I have to agree with this as well. Even as harsh as it sounds.

That doesn't mean there's not hope. It just means that you should work with a swim coach and you can probably learn a lot, and get out of the water fresher, which will result in a faster bike split, with less effort, and a faster run split.

Of course, that's if this hobby is worth that much to you.

Do you race with a powermeter?

Do you do hard bikes after hard swims? ;-)

Not sure i agree on the speed of NC.
Its point to point so you could get 40 miles if headwind like last year.

Last year, I raced a little over 200w at 167lbs and came in with a 2:40 something.

I think with no wind and my cda, I was a low 2:20 at 205w (per bbs). When I look at bbs, with "generic" weather in NC, and lake placid as race day, my races come out 18 minutes apart... So a 2:40 placid turns into a 2:22 nc (with no wind).
Id guess 2:57 becomes 2:40 - 2:45 not 2:20.

Aahh, that is a workout I specifically wanted to do before Placid. It is tough to duplicate in training since you don't have a transition to run to with your bike racked.

Sept 3, did 2300 yd OWS at 57 minutes, got on the bike rode one hour at 183w average and Avg HR was 138 BPM.

I've seen this issue pop up before and since you aren't used to going from swim to bike, you may be losing power - it's worth a shot to try a few race pace swims pre-Saturday long ride or whenever you do your long rides. I would do something like 2k straight swim at race pace, and then 2 hours race pace, then run 10-15k off the bike. That would be a good simulation for you.

Few issues going on.

1. Swim like everyone says. Don't worry, I can't get my swim time below 38-40 either but:
2. Your bike speed relative to your power seems off. Your position is decent. I am 170-175 lbs and FTP of 255. At about 180 NP, I would expect to go 2:40 ish depending on course. I did 165NP at 70.3FL(hillier that you would think-1800ft elev) for 2:41 and 190NP at 70.3 Steelhead for 2:33. Make sure you have good tires and latex tubes work on your position.
3. Really look into your nutrition and make sure you are consuming enough calories AND enough water. I take about 800 cal on the bike and prob 6-7 bottles of water.

Good luck

I will try to put that on the schedule for NC, maybe this weekend as the lakes are still warm from the nice weather we've had here in Ohio.

BTW best race Ive had so far was IMMD which is my only full IM. I followed one of your training plans, thanks again for the advice.

You need to be pacing by NP not average. NP is the time weighted average. Meaning on a hilly course your NP will be higher if your pacing off of average, this can be bad if the gap is large. Ideally you want your average = NP

Unfortunately I cant get that info off the Edge 800. I am typically pretty close between NP and avg in a race. I am pretty sure my NP for Placid was in the 190-200w range with the climbing. In training my 170-180w avg pwr rides are 200-210 NP but some of these are with others so drafting etc come into play. Last long ride in training 2800' elevation 62 miles avg 178w NP 207 which is pretty similar to Placid ride and I rode out front for 90% of the ride.

Why is NP pwr better than avg for pacing Avg is actual power output? I use NP more to compare overall efforts on training rides more than anything?

Unfortunately I cant get that info off the Edge 800. I am typically pretty close between NP and avg in a race. I am pretty sure my NP for Placid was in the 190-200w range with the climbing. In training my 170-180w avg pwr rides are 200-210 NP but some of these are with others so drafting etc come into play. Last long ride in training 2800' elevation 62 miles avg 178w NP 207 which is pretty similar to Placid ride and I rode out front for 90% of the ride.

Why is NP pwr better than avg for pacing Avg is actual power output? I use NP more to compare overall efforts on training rides more than anything?

The swimming is a tough nut to crack though. The 'naturals' at swimming automatically assume that anyone who's swimming a 40 minute HIM just needs to swim like 2x/week at moderate pace, <3000yds to drop that down to sub 36, but in reality if you're 40+ right now, it'll take a ton of work to get that swim speed down. That 'low hanging fruit' the tell you about is def not so - it's pretty hard as a slow AOS swimmer to cut off significant time from your swim.

Your goal of 38/2:30/1:50 should be eminently doable with more of a focus on your weaknesses as opposed to your strength, just as you say. Still, nothing wrong with enjoying cycling and just accepting a slower swim/run if that's the most enjoyable way of doing HIM.

The swimming is a tough nut to crack though. The 'naturals' at swimming automatically assume that anyone who's swimming a 40 minute HIM just needs to swim like 2x/week at moderate pace, <3000yds to drop that down to sub 36, but in reality if you're 40+ right now, it'll take a ton of work to get that swim speed down. That 'low hanging fruit' the tell you about is def not so - it's pretty hard as a slow AOS swimmer to cut off significant time from your swim.

Not to say you shouldn't give up on it, and especially because I and others have found that swim gains from slow swims are usually the most durable of gains since as your muscles and technique improve, they tend to stick, so after a few years of 1-2 minute gains, you realistically will be seeing those 6+ minute aggregate gains. But don't expect to chop off so much in a single year if you haven't been able to in the past.

I’m coming to that realization actually. I’m a 40/2:30/1:45 guy. I swim 4 times a week for 10-15k per week depending how close I am to a full. I really tried hard at improving my swim but after a lot of hard (and boring) training, my swims were either the same to 1 min improvement. Really not the ROI i was looking for. So I’ve decided I am ok for now with 40 min and I’m trying to get my bike to 2:20 and run to 1:30

What was the quality of the swim workouts you were putting in? Were you coasting through those 10-15k per week or were you worked after every swim? I made some improvements to my swim this year and it was due to swimming hard every session. Not only did my swim times improve, but I definitely felt fresh for the bike as was mentioned previously in this thread. I also feel like there was quite a bit of fitness carry-over from swimming to biking to running. Doing 3 hard swims/week payed dividends to my overall fitness that I hadn't expected.

Well yes you could compute NP already back in 2011. http://www.bikeradar.com/...topic.php?t=12807891 I've been using it on a 500 which got the same update i.e. V 2.40 for the past 6 years.

I have software 2.70 loaded on my Edge 800. Can you tell me how I can get that info off the Edge without downloading the file? I can not seem to find it in there anywhere and I can not download the file for some reason when I connect it with a USB cable. It will charge but not connect to Express. I would love to get that file off there to review.

mlyonsdc wrote:

I've had swim coaching. I watch videos read books, every post on here etc. I recently found some inspiration with Tower 26 and Gerry Rodigeus videos. I plan to follow his advice this winter and I just bought a snorkel and ankle bands with a bouy hoping he straightens my ass out lol!

A couple of other thoughts--you said you didn't feel like you burned any matches. What was your VI?

I haven't read the replies to this thread but do you do any shorter races? How about next year train for and do about 5 sprint races and maybe an oly or 2 and finish off the year with a half. Bueno!

I like to race but our season is short in Ohio. If I spent that many weekends racing I would lose my family lol. I usually do a few shorter local races.

BTW I ditched IMNC as I got way to busy with work to even consider it. I did sign up for IMFL 70.3 April 8th as my next race. If anything it will keep me training consistently all winter long. I should be in the best shape Ive been in for early April and not having to play catch up all summer long. Last winter I just ran with zero swim and close to zero bike.

3. Really look into your nutrition and make sure you are consuming enough calories AND enough water.

I had this same thought. What are you eating/drinking? 5-6 hrs of athletic work is a massive strain on the body, and nutrition at this distance can be tricky (even if you train it).

Also agree with the others that the swim is taking alot out of you. As a result of your swim, even a "reasonable" bike power is too much. It's a fine balance, though. G'luck -J