% FTP for "40k" (39.5k)

Jul 21, 17 9:17

Post #1 of 37 Views: 4038

State TT Champs is coming up soon, and unlike prior years where the event has been fun aside, cycling has been a focus and the event is my primary target for the year. If I want to optimize my power strategy given a goal time in the 53' - 54' range, should I be shooting for 102%-103% FTP? Target FTP and raise effort level the last 10-15 minutes based on how I feel? The course is quite flat (450ft gain/loss) with consistent tree covering and good roads.

Thanks for the feedback!

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 9:45

Post #2 of 37 Views: 3979

Yeah, I'd set your power ceiling at FTP for the first 45 minutes, then *try* to elevate it coming home.

Definitely some ground to make up on people who are fading those final 15 minutes.

Alex Arman

Strava

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 9:49

Post #3 of 37 Views: 3965

Assuming the FTP number you're using is very accurate (big assumption unless you've consistently done full one hour efforts), then I would say 53-54 minutes is closer to 101% of FTP than 102-103%

I do think it's better to save a tiny bit for the end, such as going from 100% to 101% the last 10-15 minutes as you suggest, but that assumes wind is not a factor. If there is a headwind, I would put slightly more power into those sections regardless of whether it's on the first half of the course or not.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 9:53

Post #4 of 37 Views: 3950

Race by HR.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [geauxTT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 9:59

Post #5 of 37 Views: 3938

geauxTT wrote:

Race by HR.

and I guarantee you'll go too hard for the first 10 minutes and regret it for the last 30 after doing so for more than a decade before moving to a power meter.

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 10:12

Post #6 of 37 Views: 3902

Optimal might be closer to 101%. 102% is probably closer to 48'. I would expect starting 99-100% and adjusting would be a better strategy only because you can tune to the conditions, and it doesn't sound like you've done a run for 50+' at 102% FTP. Don't start too fast. G'luck and let us know how it goes! -J

----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 10:25

Post #7 of 37 Views: 3881

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 10:30

Post #8 of 37 Views: 3868

No matter what power number you train at or what power number you think you can hold on race day, when you push off from the start line, your heart rate will be the governor on how much power you will put out that day.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [geauxTT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 10:34

Post #9 of 37 Views: 3857

geauxTT wrote:

No matter what power number you train at or what power number you think you can hold on race day, when you push off from the start line, your heart rate will be the governor on how much power you will put out that day.

My personal anecdote: I raced a 20min TT about a month back. It was a hot day and my HR was already quite high during the warmup. Also had the andrenaline pumping with race day nerves.

A hard training day on the bike, I can get my HR to low 180s and feel like I'm going to die. During this TT, I averaged 185 bpm and peaked at 189.

If I raced by HR, I would not have pushed as hard.

Alex Arman

Strava

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [GeorgeA11965] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 11:53

Post #10 of 37 Views: 3746

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:19

Post #11 of 37 Views: 3685

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Sorry chaparral but that's incorrect. Your FTP power level is the Highest Average Power you can sustain for one hour.

http://www.bikeradar.com/...to-improve-it-48624/

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._TT_effort_P4414665/

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [geauxTT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:20

Post #12 of 37 Views: 3681

geauxTT wrote:

Race by HR.

Genuinely made me LOL.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [GeorgeA11965] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:21

Post #13 of 37 Views: 3675

that's now how the owner of the term describes it, that is the bastardization of it

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Grill] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:25

Post #14 of 37 Views: 3658

Grill wrote:

geauxTT wrote:

Race by HR.

Genuinely made me LOL.

I'd say the correct answer is: Race by HR, RPE, and Power. Of course you have to start somewhere near your historically-established threshold, but on race day, you have to find what the day allows you. From there it is a matter of holding the razor's edge for 45-48 minutes. If you paced it right, you won't be able to increase power by much leading toward the finish.

Targeting some specific power number or HR won't work. It never will. You have to listen to your body on race day. You may be able to exceed your power that you might have targeted otherwise. Or . . . worst case . . . you might think you can (or should) hold a higher power and find yourself blown up.

Last edited by: kmill23: Jul 21, 17 12:26

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [GeorgeA11965] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:34

Post #15 of 37 Views: 3638

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Sorry chaparral but that's incorrect. Your FTP power level is the Highest Average Power you can sustain for one hour.

http://www.bikeradar.com/...to-improve-it-48624/

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._TT_effort_P4414665/

Umm

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5803727#p5803727

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6129751#p6129751

I was a bit wrong, a 40k is how he recommends estimating FTP, but it is not defined as average power over one hour.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 12:48

Post #16 of 37 Views: 3606

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Sorry chaparral but that's incorrect. Your FTP power level is the Highest Average Power you can sustain for one hour.

http://www.bikeradar.com/...to-improve-it-48624/

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._TT_effort_P4414665/

Umm

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5803727#p5803727

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6129751#p6129751

I was a bit wrong, a 40k is how he recommends estimating FTP, but it is not defined as average power over one hour.

I think an all out effort of "roughly" 1 hour is what is being recommended. Whether that is a TT that takes about an hour or during a road race where the max effort is 1 hour.

But simply saying a 40k isn't useful because your threshold is a factor of time and effort, not distance. Climbing Haleakala from sea level to the ranger station is right about 40k, but I wouldn't advise anyone to use that as an FTP test as it probably will take you closer to 1:45...maybe 90 minutes if you're semi pro level.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [GeorgeA11965] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 13:23

Post #17 of 37 Views: 3546

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Sorry chaparral but that's incorrect. Your FTP power level is the Highest Average Power you can sustain for one hour.

Nope. Never has been.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 16:08

Post #18 of 37 Views: 3422

Race by RPE, forget about HR, and use power predominantly as a ceiling for the first half of the TT. Ie set your power ceiling at 105% of your current estimated FTP.

When you're shooting to try and hit 101% of your FTP, I'd wager that your estimated FTP number is not going to be accurate enough to distinguish between a race effort of 99% or 101%, way too much margin for error in your testing prior to the race.

Hence, use RPE

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [GeorgeA11965] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 17 16:21

Post #19 of 37 Views: 3399

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

chaparral wrote:

GeorgeA11965 wrote:

Your FTP is the level you can hold for 1 hour so adjust accordingly

Actually FTP is the power you can hold for a 40k time trial, at least according to the person that came up with the name. He is probably tearing his hair out reading this thread.

Sorry chaparral but that's incorrect. Your FTP power level is the Highest Average Power you can sustain for one hour.

http://www.bikeradar.com/...to-improve-it-48624/

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._TT_effort_P4414665/

Hmmm.

Not quite.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...tion-metric-in-wko4/

"Obsessed is just a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.

http://bscmultisport.com

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

FastFitnessTips

Jul 23, 17 0:37

Post #20 of 37 Views: 3115

As a ball park from our database of 2000 riders, of those who managed lets say 250w for 60mins (best effort for that time) then their best over 53.5mins was 255w (+2%). If you wish, write to us at coaching@fastfitness.tips and we can help you with this in detail with power-time calculator (unreleased to public) and pacing calculator (unreleased to public). bw alex for FFT.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [k9car363] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 1:05

Post #21 of 37 Views: 3113

Always so entertaining to see such confusion over the FTP concept.
I know someone who suffers from a loss of metabolic control after 33 minutes at 100% FTP so the poor chap has to ride a 40k TT at well below FTP.

People should stop confusing what FTP is with how to test and estimate FTP.

FTP is power at MLSS which can be maintained for anything from 30 to 80 minutes before loss of metabolic control, but on average most people can maintain it for approximately 60 minutes or approximately for 40k. ( "on average about as long as it takes someone to complete a ~40 km TT, but with some variability between individuals. Based on the WKO4 model? 59 +/- 13 min").

Well, that's what FTP was a few weeks ago. Life was far simpler when FTP was the power you could maintain in a semi quasi state for approximately 60 minutes or a 40k TT but that was just so year 2000 thinking. Things have moved on and Dr Andrew Coggan PhD who invented FTP has said, " ..the notion of a power threshold power is really the same sort of mental convenience as the notion of a lactate threshold. Regardless, anybody in the field worth their salts realizes that the notions of "thresholds" are really just mental conveniences, i.e., that the underlying physiology isn't quite that simple, ... """ and Alex Simmons who really does understand FTP can explain why some people can only maintain their 60 minute power for less than 40 minutes and are unable to ride a 40k TT at 100% FTP.

Obviously some people have always said FTP is a load of complete bollocks because the simple fact is the longer the duration the lower the power, but they are just confused, don't understand the concept, or trolls.

Last edited by: Trev: Jul 23, 17 2:19

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 1:47

Post #22 of 37 Views: 3099

I did my best bikeride ever a few weeks ago in an olympic distance with an average of 39,6 km/h on a mainly flat course. I do not have a PM and hardly had the time to look at my HR.
I always wonder how people can control their power constantly while overtaking other cyclists, making curves, getting over bridges and smaller ascents and so.
I did everything on perceived effort, which is harder than comfortable but so slow that you always have a certain reserve. Worked out fine.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 3:16

Post #23 of 37 Views: 3052

Entertaining to see you still don't get it.

Trev wrote:

Always so entertaining to see such confusion over the FTP concept.
I know someone who suffers from a loss of metabolic control after 33 minutes at 100% FTP so the poor chap has to ride a 40k TT at well below FTP.

People should stop confusing what FTP is with how to test and estimate FTP.

FTP is power at MLSS which can be maintained for anything from 30 to 80 minutes before loss of metabolic control, but on average most people can maintain it for approximately 60 minutes or approximately for 40k. ( "on average about as long as it takes someone to complete a ~40 km TT, but with some variability between individuals. Based on the WKO4 model? 59 +/- 13 min").

Well, that's what FTP was a few weeks ago. Life was far simpler when FTP was the power you could maintain in a semi quasi state for approximately 60 minutes or a 40k TT but that was just so year 2000 thinking. Things have moved on and Dr Andrew Coggan PhD who invented FTP has said, " ..the notion of a power threshold power is really the same sort of mental convenience as the notion of a lactate threshold. Regardless, anybody in the field worth their salts realizes that the notions of "thresholds" are really just mental conveniences, i.e., that the underlying physiology isn't quite that simple, ... """ and Alex Simmons who really does understand FTP can explain why some people can only maintain their 60 minute power for less than 40 minutes and are unable to ride a 40k TT at 100% FTP.

Obviously some people have always said FTP is a load of complete bollocks because the simple fact is the longer the duration the lower the power, but they are just confused, don't understand the concept, or trolls.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 3:45

Post #24 of 37 Views: 3041

Entertaining to see you still don't get it
---

You realize that he's quoting the TP article, right?

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 3:48

Post #25 of 37 Views: 3039

I do, that is another story. And one why I don't write articles for them anymore.

Tri-Banter wrote:

Entertaining to see you still don't get it
---

You realize that he's quoting the TP article, right?

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 5:00

Post #26 of 37 Views: 2104

Tri-Banter wrote:

Entertaining to see you still don't get it
---

You realize that he's quoting the TP article, right?

And that, I think, is the big issue.

You have a dozen plus publications (print and internet) all saying it's one thing. And then you have everyone and their brother reading those things and regurgitating them. And then you have the actual "experts" coming in and saying, "no, that's not right" and when you actually produce those things saying that you get called out for being wrong. It's all a big comedy routine!

You just have to laugh about it.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 7:03

Post #27 of 37 Views: 2074

Quantum wrote:

State TT Champs is coming up soon, and unlike prior years where the event has been fun aside, cycling has been a focus and the event is my primary target for the year. If I want to optimize my power strategy given a goal time in the 53' - 54' range, should I be shooting for 102%-103% FTP? Target FTP and raise effort level the last 10-15 minutes based on how I feel? The course is quite flat (450ft gain/loss) with consistent tree covering and good roads.

Thanks for the feedback!

What are you power numbers in key workouts leading up to the race? How long can you ride at 100% FTP? Testing is a guideline for training and racing, make sure to adjust based on what you experience in workouts.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [rubik] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 17 18:14

Post #28 of 37 Views: 1995

rubik wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

Entertaining to see you still don't get it
---

You realize that he's quoting the TP article, right?

And that, I think, is the big issue.

You have a dozen plus publications (print and internet) all saying it's one thing. And then you have everyone and their brother reading those things and regurgitating them. And then you have the actual "experts" coming in and saying, "no, that's not right" and when you actually produce those things saying that you get called out for being wrong. It's all a big comedy routine!

You just have to laugh about it.

No wonder Trev is confused.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 1:57

Post #29 of 37 Views: 1943

Jctriguy wrote:

Quantum wrote:

State TT Champs is coming up soon, and unlike prior years where the event has been fun aside, cycling has been a focus and the event is my primary target for the year. If I want to optimize my power strategy given a goal time in the 53' - 54' range, should I be shooting for 102%-103% FTP? Target FTP and raise effort level the last 10-15 minutes based on how I feel? The course is quite flat (450ft gain/loss) with consistent tree covering and good roads.

Thanks for the feedback!

What are you power numbers in key workouts leading up to the race? How long can you ride at 100% FTP? Testing is a guideline for training and racing, make sure to adjust based on what you experience in workouts.

" How long can you ride at 100% FTP?"

Do you mean TTE ( Time To Exhaustion ) in WKO4 as in how long you can ride at mFTP?

Or are you asking how long one can ride at FTP which might be average power over a 40k TT or the power you can maintain in a semi quasi steady state for approx 60 minutes +\- 13 minutes, or power at MLSS which could be maintained for anything from 30 minutes to 70 minutes?

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 6:35

Post #30 of 37 Views: 1874

Trev wrote:

Jctriguy wrote:

Quantum wrote:

State TT Champs is coming up soon, and unlike prior years where the event has been fun aside, cycling has been a focus and the event is my primary target for the year. If I want to optimize my power strategy given a goal time in the 53' - 54' range, should I be shooting for 102%-103% FTP? Target FTP and raise effort level the last 10-15 minutes based on how I feel? The course is quite flat (450ft gain/loss) with consistent tree covering and good roads.

Thanks for the feedback!

What are you power numbers in key workouts leading up to the race? How long can you ride at 100% FTP? Testing is a guideline for training and racing, make sure to adjust based on what you experience in workouts.

" How long can you ride at 100% FTP?"

Do you mean TTE ( Time To Exhaustion ) in WKO4 as in how long you can ride at mFTP?

Or are you asking how long one can ride at FTP which might be average power over a 40k TT or the power you can maintain in a semi quasi steady state for approx 60 minutes +\- 13 minutes, or power at MLSS which could be maintained for anything from 30 minutes to 70 minutes?

Don't get bogged down in trolling...

I mean how long can the OP ride at the wattage that he has identified as his FTP. If he hasn't done long segments at ftp, what wattages is he holding for interval sessions or hard tempo rides? It's called training and reviewing your training data.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 9:23

Post #31 of 37 Views: 1822

Knowing how long he can ride at the wattage he has identified as his FTP is not very useful without also knowing how he has estimated his FTP.

What do you mean by ' long segments at FTP', do you mean 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 50 minutes, 60 minutes, 70 minutes?

Last edited by: Trev: Jul 24, 17 9:55

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 9:42

Post #32 of 37 Views: 1798

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Last edited by: sciguy: Jul 24, 17 10:29

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Trev] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 11:41

Post #33 of 37 Views: 1757

Trev wrote:

Knowing how long he can ride at the wattage he has identified as his FTP is not very useful without also knowing how he has estimated his FTP.

What do you mean by ' long segments at FTP', do you mean 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 50 minutes, 60 minutes, 70 minutes?

That's total BS. Training data is extremely valuable to review. Training is testing after all. If you can't ride 30km at 100% of FTP, I would suggest not targeting 102% for a 40km TT. Doesn't matter how you tested FTP, pretty simple data to review.

Similarly, if you can routinely ride 40-60min of intervals close to FTP, you can use that info to help pacing an event that you target at ~54min. You can also use all of your training data to build a model of your power curves and make good estimates of different power targets for different durations of events (then test those targets prior to the main events). I bet someone already build a system to do this...

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [geauxTT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 24, 17 11:45

Post #34 of 37 Views: 1754

so you are in his category right?

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 17 14:03

Post #35 of 37 Views: 1631

Disappear for a couple of days and come back to some serious argument. My question had to do with using the % of max power I can hold for an hour, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that I may be off base in defining max power I can hold for an hour as FTP.

Seems like it really depends on my power curve, with the margin of error on any given day suggesting I play it conservative to begin with (sticking with what I can believe I can hold for an hour) and adjust accordingly based on RPE throughout the effort.

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 17 14:47

Post #36 of 37 Views: 1601

Short answer: It depends.

Slightly less short answer: It depends on the individual, the individual on any given day, and the demands of the 39.5km test beyond just riding 39.5km as hard as you can (climate, wind, rolling resistance, mental demands etc).

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: % FTP for "40k" (39.5k) [Quantum] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 17 16:27

Post #37 of 37 Views: 1568

Quantum wrote:

Seems like it really depends on my power curve, with the margin of error on any given day suggesting I play it conservative to begin with (sticking with what I can believe I can hold for an hour) and adjust accordingly based on RPE throughout the effort.

How much experience do you have with these efforts?

I like RPE (using the PM in the first 5 minutes to make sure I don't overdo it), but if you don't have a lot of experience of what a max 40k effort at consistent wattage feels like, it will be tough. The "feeling" will change massively from the beginning to the end. If there is doubt I'd err on the low side. It's way more fun to finish strong than blow up early, even if the time is the same.

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