TDF 9 thread: Mont du Chat (was it worth it) ?

Jul 8, 17 12:37

Post #1 of 86 Views: 6709

OK, we've really been waiting it out for a week of shadow boxing and a bit of toying around on Planche des Belles Filles. Now a really tough stage on deck. 3 climbs all steeper than Alpe d'Huez albeit each a bit short. Contador claims this is the toughest stage this year. Froome expects things to blow apart:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-i-expect-the-tour-de-france-gc-to-be-blown-wide-open-on-stage-9/

Stage profile:

Key climbs

If you only had one of the climbs Messick would cancel the Ironman containing one of these since WTC would not be able to make money.

Climb by Climb:

Col de La Biche+Grand Colombier

Mont du Chat (the cat climb used at the Dauphine this year) with the middle kilometers at 14 and 15 percent. Aru and Quintana need to bury themselves here!!!

Your GC going in

#Rider Name (Country) TeamResult
1Christopher Froome (GBr) Team Sky33:19:10
2Geraint Thomas (GBr) Team Sky0:00:12
3Fabio Aru (Ita) Astana Pro Team0:00:14
4Daniel Martin (Irl) Quick-Step Floors0:00:25
5Richie Porte (Aus) BMC Racing Team0:00:39
6Simon Yates (GBr) Orica-Scott0:00:43
7Romain Bardet (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale0:00:47
8Alberto Contador (Spa) Trek-Segafredo0:00:52
9Nairo Quintana (Col) Movistar Team0:00:54
10Rafal Majka (Pol) Bora-Hansgrohe0:01:01
11Rigoberto Uran (Col) Cannondale-Drapac
12Pierre Latour (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale0:01:07
13Louis Meintjes (RSA) UAE Team Emirates0:01:24
14Emanuel Buchmann (Ger) Bora-Hansgrohe0:01:29
15Jakob Fuglsang (Den) Astana Pro Team0:01:33
16Mikel Landa (Spa) Team Sky0:01:47
17Andrew Talansky (USA) Cannondale-Drapac0:01:57
18Serge Pauwels (Bel) Dimension Data0:02:00
19Nicolas Roche (Irl) BMC Racing Team0:02:14
20Guillaume Martin (Fra) Wanty - Groupe Gobert0:02:23
21Sergio Henao (Col) Team Sky0:02:32
22George Bennett (NZl) Team LottoNl-Jumbo0:02:34

KOM Points Standings

#Rider Name (Country) TeamResult
1Lilian Calmejane (Fra) Direct Energie 11 pts
2Fabio Aru (Ita) Astana Pro Team 10
3Daniel Martin (Irl) Quick-Step Floors 8
4Robert Gesink (Ned) Team LottoNl 8
5Warren Barguil (Fra) Team Sunweb 7
6Christopher Froome (GBr) Team Sky 6
7Guillaume Martin (Fra) Wanty - Groupe6
8Jan Bakelants (Bel) AG2R 5
9Serge Pauwels (Bel) Dimension Data 5
10Richie Porte (Aus) BMC Racing 4

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jul 9, 17 10:46

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 13:19

Post #2 of 86 Views: 6661

my predictions are terrible so I have no idea what'sgonna happen. my amusement will come from watch the sprinters get in their granny-gear gruppetto as soon as the neutralization flag waves.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 13:20

Post #3 of 86 Views: 6657

This stage will likely set the template for the rest of the Tour.
If Froome can stay with the attacks tomorrow or bridge back on during the descents, he'll be ptetty much a lock for the yellow, especially considering the ITT before paris
We'll find out who really has the heart to challenge the skytrain;
I predict Aru, Froome Porte, D Martin, Bardet, Contador,

res, non verba

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [RoYe] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 13:32

Post #4 of 86 Views: 6638

RoYe wrote:

This stage will likely set the template for the rest of the Tour.
If Froome can stay with the attacks tomorrow or bridge back on during the descents, he'll be ptetty much a lock for the yellow, especially considering the ITT before paris
We'll find out who really has the heart to challenge the skytrain;
I predict Aru, Froome Porte, D Martin, Bardet, Contador,

So will they all play poker and sit with each other till the Mont du Chat, or do you think some GC guys will go crazy and attack on the Colombier. Quintana/Contador would have to send someone up the road early to come back and help him for the Colombiere descent and Mont du Chat climb. Aru and Fuglsang can use each other. One of them has to go early and the other sit around with Sky.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 14:19

Post #5 of 86 Views: 6590

devashish_paul wrote:

So will they all play poker and sit with each other till the Mont du Chat, or do you think some GC guys will go crazy and attack on the Colombier.

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't see a lot happening on this stage regarding the GC battle. It's too hard. For sure all of the contenders will be together when they begin the final climb up Mont du Chat. Froome could gain some time on the descent, but they'll all come back together on the 13 km flattish finish.

Here's hoping there's an early break with some good climbers who manage to stay away and the stage win comes from the break.

Rolland
Pinot

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 15:08

Post #6 of 86 Views: 6540

Alvin Tostig wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

So will they all play poker and sit with each other till the Mont du Chat, or do you think some GC guys will go crazy and attack on the Colombier.

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't see a lot happening on this stage regarding the GC battle. It's too hard. For sure all of the contenders will be together when they begin the final climb up Mont du Chat. Froome could gain some time on the descent, but they'll all come back together on the 13 km flattish finish.

Here's hoping there's an early break with some good climbers who manage to stay away and the stage win comes from the break.

Rolland
Pinot

I think youre right, but could also be a small possibility for a crazy stage if alot og GC guuys go crazy on first climb. Should be good fun if all the teams are scattered, no skytrain etc(ref last stage dauphine)

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 15:18

Post #7 of 86 Views: 6533

If someone really wants to beat Froome they need to eliminate the Sky freight train before the last climb. Astana have both Fulsang and Val-something they send up the road putting preassure on Sky early on those 15% pitches. Thomas and Kwiakowski are all that is left for Froome by the second climb then everyone starts teeing off on Froome. We get Down to the 10 or 12 "real" GC contenders before the start of the last climb Aru skips away with 3 k of the last climb and schools everyone on the descent. Contador and Quintana lose 3 minutes. Froome, Porte, Bardet and Mentjens roll in 45 seconds down on Aru.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 18:58

Post #8 of 86 Views: 6423

grumpier.mike wrote:

If someone really wants to beat Froome they need to eliminate the Sky freight train before the last climb. Astana have both Fulsang and Val-something they send up the road putting preassure on Sky early on those 15% pitches. Thomas and Kwiakowski are all that is left for Froome by the second climb then everyone starts teeing off on Froome. We get Down to the 10 or 12 "real" GC contenders before the start of the last climb Aru skips away with 3 k of the last climb and schools everyone on the descent. Contador and Quintana lose 3 minutes. Froome, Porte, Bardet and Mentjens roll in 45 seconds down on Aru.

The more I think of it, Astana could be the guys that do something to blow it apart on the first climb or at least send one of their guys up the road. The key is they need to blow apart the sky train so it is just Thomas + Froome and no one else....but they have Landa and i can't see them easily shaking him even with a full out attack

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 19:38

Post #9 of 86 Views: 6381

grumpier.mike wrote:

If someone really wants to beat Froome they need to eliminate the Sky freight train before the last climb. Astana have both Fulsang and Val-something they send up the road putting preassure on Sky early on those 15% pitches. Thomas and Kwiakowski are all that is left for Froome by the second climb then everyone starts teeing off on Froome. We get Down to the 10 or 12 "real" GC contenders before the start of the last climb Aru skips away with 3 k of the last climb and schools everyone on the descent. Contador and Quintana lose 3 minutes. Froome, Porte, Bardet and Mentjens roll in 45 seconds down on Aru.

I can see a scenario where teams like Astana, BMC, or Movistar put a man in the breakaway early to prevent their gc guy from being isolated during the Mont du Chat climb.
But I also expect the skytrain to absolutely set a furious pace from the flag to try separate Froome from the pretenders.
Can you lmagine the carnage on the descents if the forecast of thunderstorms comes true?

res, non verba

Last edited by: RoYe: Jul 8, 17 21:12

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [RoYe] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 19:51

Post #10 of 86 Views: 6363

Does that "put a rider in the early brake so he can help GC guy later" work though? Sky and Postal pulled it off but they are outliers right?

I feel like it has to be an GC guy who goes early or it's just kinda blah strategy. Of course if a GC makes this move, this is the move. They won't come back from it if it fails. But if it works, and sky is caught out....beautiful.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 20:13

Post #11 of 86 Views: 6334

Porte.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 21:25

Post #12 of 86 Views: 6300

The more years I have on the bike the more respect I have for these guys and for the TdF. Those climbs look insane! I mean Mont du Chat... give me my mtb an let me put a 28 on the front and I'll put it in the 42 in the rear lol.

BTW thanks for these threads =)

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 22:26

Post #13 of 86 Views: 6274

devashish_paul wrote:

grumpier.mike wrote:

If someone really wants to beat Froome they need to eliminate the Sky freight train before the last climb. Astana have both Fulsang and Val-something they send up the road putting preassure on Sky early on those 15% pitches. Thomas and Kwiakowski are all that is left for Froome by the second climb then everyone starts teeing off on Froome. We get Down to the 10 or 12 "real" GC contenders before the start of the last climb Aru skips away with 3 k of the last climb and schools everyone on the descent. Contador and Quintana lose 3 minutes. Froome, Porte, Bardet and Mentjens roll in 45 seconds down on Aru.

The more I think of it, Astana could be the guys that do something to blow it apart on the first climb or at least send one of their guys up the road. The key is they need to blow apart the sky train so it is just Thomas + Froome and no one else....but they have Landa and i can't see them easily shaking him even with a full out attack

The problem with sending your climbing domestic up the road is that everyone wants to do it. I bet Landa's job for tomorrow is to follow any early moves and just sit on for later use. Whatever happens I hope it is a slug fest.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 17 23:50

Post #14 of 86 Views: 6239

devashish_paul wrote:

RoYe wrote:

This stage will likely set the template for the rest of the Tour.
If Froome can stay with the attacks tomorrow or bridge back on during the descents, he'll be ptetty much a lock for the yellow, especially considering the ITT before paris
We'll find out who really has the heart to challenge the skytrain;
I predict Aru, Froome Porte, D Martin, Bardet, Contador,

So will they all play poker and sit with each other till the Mont du Chat, or do you think some GC guys will go crazy and attack on the Colombier. Quintana/Contador would have to send someone up the road early to come back and help him for the Colombiere descent and Mont du Chat climb. Aru and Fuglsang can use each other. One of them has to go early and the other sit around with Sky.

Either the top guys attack all day or it will be a wash. If they can peel off the rest of sky, then they can try to drop Froome on the Chat. If they leave the attacks too late sky will have the firepower to get Froome up in the valleys. As an outside possibility, attack on the Colombier and aim to bridge to a non-GC breakaway to take through the long valley before Chat.

Aru might like the steep stuff. I think my man Porte will have a good go, but he will wait too long. Unfortunately, most likely Froome will hit the top of the Chat less than 1min back and won't lose much time if at all.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 3:13

Post #15 of 86 Views: 6192

There are stages like this every year, however, can you think of the last time a GC contender really went for it on the early climb? Pushing the pace and keeping the tempo high doesn't count. I mean really attack.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [logella] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 5:29

Post #16 of 86 Views: 6103

Geraint Thomas has broken his collar bone, big loss for Team Sky.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [logella] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 5:32

Post #17 of 86 Views: 6096

logella wrote:

There are stages like this every year, however, can you think of the last time a GC contender really went for it on the early climb? Pushing the pace and keeping the tempo high doesn't count. I mean really attack.

So far it is exciting. Sadly Geraint Thomas out wtih broken collar bone. What a sucky year for him (aside from winning the yellow). Contador crash but OK. AG2R is going nuts on the descent of LaBiche. Aparently the team is based in the area and knows the roads well. They were showing the front group (6 min up) on the 22% grade almost falling off the bikes. Pantano looks like he is in it. Stage hunting? Anyone know where Mollema is?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 5:41

Post #18 of 86 Views: 6089

Contador keeps going down (this time gets knocked down on the 22% grade section) and gets up, attacks and comes back:

He has Pantano and Mollema 5 min up the road.

Re: TDF 9: The moment you're waiting for-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [davros] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 6:03

Post #19 of 86 Views: 6072

davros wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

RoYe wrote:

This stage will likely set the template for the rest of the Tour.
If Froome can stay with the attacks tomorrow or bridge back on during the descents, he'll be ptetty much a lock for the yellow, especially considering the ITT before paris
We'll find out who really has the heart to challenge the skytrain;
I predict Aru, Froome Porte, D Martin, Bardet, Contador,

So will they all play poker and sit with each other till the Mont du Chat, or do you think some GC guys will go crazy and attack on the Colombier. Quintana/Contador would have to send someone up the road early to come back and help him for the Colombiere descent and Mont du Chat climb. Aru and Fuglsang can use each other. One of them has to go early and the other sit around with Sky.

Either the top guys attack all day or it will be a wash. If they can peel off the rest of sky, then they can try to drop Froome on the Chat. If they leave the attacks too late sky will have the firepower to get Froome up in the valleys. As an outside possibility, attack on the Colombier and aim to bridge to a non-GC breakaway to take through the long valley before Chat.

Aru might like the steep stuff. I think my man Porte will have a good go, but he will wait too long. Unfortunately, most likely Froome will hit the top of the Chat less than 1min back and won't lose much time if at all.

Everyone together on Colombiere other than Thomas who crashed out. Aru and Fuglsang appear to have done nothing so far today and visually looked relaxed. I am surprised that Quintana did nothing to up the pace a bit on the 22% section to cut the group down a bit. He's just playing robo climbing droid so far, or he has nothing after the Giro. Let's see. Is he just waiting for week 3 when everyone's legs are equally cooked to him?.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [logella] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 6:41

Post #20 of 86 Views: 6032

They are saying the Demare sprinter group is at risk of missing the cut off today. Do you think the ASO will toss Demare if he misses the cut?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 6:45

Post #21 of 86 Views: 6027

Of course they won't and no one will do anything about it.

Hopefully Matthews & Sunweb protests since he is deserving of the green jersey

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ChrisC42780] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 6:56

Post #22 of 86 Views: 6009

ChrisC42780 wrote:

Of course they won't and no one will do anything about it.

Hopefully Matthews & Sunweb protests since he is deserving of the green jersey

I hope Sunweb protests. Matthews has been awesome today and bagged the 20 points at the intermediate sprint. It puts Matthews at 160 pts, Demare 182, Kittel 212.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:17

Post #23 of 86 Views: 5983

SHIT...the Mont dU Chat effectively gets neutralized by a Chris Froome puncture. This is just like Stelvio dumpgate!

Aru attacked at the exact point of Froome's puncture, and then lays off the gas (likely after his DS calls him back)

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:36

Post #24 of 86 Views: 5949

The others pulled him back. This is an incredible climb.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:36

Post #25 of 86 Views: 5949

devashish_paul wrote:

ChrisC42780 wrote:

Of course they won't and no one will do anything about it.

Hopefully Matthews & Sunweb protests since he is deserving of the green jersey

I hope Sunweb protests. Matthews has been awesome today and bagged the 20 points at the intermediate sprint. It puts Matthews at 160 pts, Demare 182, Kittel 212.

Good news I have a bet on him to win that Jersey.

Froome is a machine going up this mountain.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:40

Post #26 of 86 Views: 4014

Martin and Port crash on the descent! Porte looks out of the race now

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:40

Post #27 of 86 Views: 4013

Nasty crash that with Martin and Porte, Porte looks out.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [georged] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:41

Post #28 of 86 Views: 4008

Shit. Porte hit the deck.

His GC over, obviously. Hope he's okay.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:41

Post #29 of 86 Views: 4003

Martin down again apparently

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:45

Post #30 of 86 Views: 3972

Bardet has gone for it, great news for my him to win this stage bet!

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [georged] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:45

Post #31 of 86 Views: 3971

georged wrote:

Shit. Porte hit the deck.

His GC over, obviously. Hope he's okay.

It looks like the injury for Porte is serious. He is definitely out. Martin was able to get bac up but hit the deck horribly hard. This descent was pretty sketchy from the outside. Its basically a paved billy goat trail. This is not how you want to see the GC shake up

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:50

Post #32 of 86 Views: 3952

I think that yellow jersey group of 4 will catch those in front seems it looks like they're going to work together.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:51

Post #33 of 86 Views: 3950

I thought the road surface looked OK. Little wet but certainly not a billy goat trail.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:51

Post #34 of 86 Views: 3945

I'm most worried about a concussion.

He takes it with his shoulder (which will be f*cked) but his head hits the pavement shortly after. He was doing at least 70km/h when he slid out and only lost some of that before coming down.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 7:57

Post #35 of 86 Views: 3923

There's usually at least one descent like this in the TdF, and it rains in July. The difference is that Froome is such a good descender that he forces the others to go to the edge of their capabilities, or beyond them.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [georged] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 8:01

Post #36 of 86 Views: 3907

Who was it who said the TDF was a snooze fest? Brilliant stage this!

Shame it looks like Bardet will be brought back, who's the best sprinter out of all this lot?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 8:04

Post #37 of 86 Views: 3896

I'm going for a Froome win!

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 8:50

Post #38 of 86 Views: 3762

Well I bet not too many people had Uran for the win. He has a bunch of podiums/top 5, but I think this is his first win in at least 2 years. If he could just figure out how to time trial again he would have a decent shot at the podium.

Hats off to Bargill for a ballsy ride and George Bennett looks to be this year's surprise GC breakthrough.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 9:09

Post #39 of 86 Views: 3721

Demare out?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [robabeatle] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:01

Post #40 of 86 Views: 3644

robabeatle wrote:

Demare out?

Looking at Tour website it shows 7 "outside time limit"---Demare and 3 other FDJ are listed as done. Along with Sagan's brother and Renshaw.

I guess we'll see if they are on the start line after the rest day (maybe Tour hopes the public forgets that FDJ didn't show up today...)

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [robabeatle] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:02

Post #41 of 86 Views: 3647

yep along with three of his teamates and quickstep lost trentin. overall a good stage, descending is a critical skill that Porte has always lacked.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:38

Post #42 of 86 Views: 3599

grumpier.mike wrote:

Well I bet not too many people had Uran for the win. He has a bunch of podiums/top 5, but I think this is his first win in at least 2 years. If he could just figure out how to time trial again he would have a decent shot at the podium.

Rear derailleur failure?

Di2?

Sounds like he was riding a single speed bike for the last 13 km.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:49

Post #43 of 86 Views: 3577

Alvin Tostig wrote:

grumpier.mike wrote:

Well I bet not too many people had Uran for the win. He has a bunch of podiums/top 5, but I think this is his first win in at least 2 years. If he could just figure out how to time trial again he would have a decent shot at the podium.

Rear derailleur failure?

Di2?

Sounds like he was riding a single speed bike for the last 13 km.

Uran was stuck in 53x11 or 39x11. Amazing that he was able to hang onto the group and take the stage win.

Having said that, watching the descent, I am not sure that it was really worthy of the TdF. Once you have one crash there is very little room for the medical vehicles and caravan. In the dry in the Dauphine was a different picture than a slick wet descent today. This is Dan Martin's take from today:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ot-what-they-wanted/

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:49

Post #44 of 86 Views: 3577

grumpier.mike wrote:

Well I bet not too many people had Uran for the win. He has a bunch of podiums/top 5, but I think this is his first win in at least 2 years. If he could just figure out how to time trial again he would have a decent shot at the podium.

Hats off to Bargill for a ballsy ride and George Bennett looks to be this year's surprise GC breakthrough.

Nope, GP Quebec city in 2015. Real gutsy attack from 1km out and held it to the line.

Now who can tell me, without looking up wikipedia or the such, when was the last time that Barguil and Uran finished 1-2 in a race

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:52

Post #45 of 86 Views: 3568

honestly, the stage was exciting, but sometimes the finish dulls it.

i'm tired of this "don't attack yellow bla bla bla". it's a damn race. part of the race is having your shit together. i didn't see froome etc wait for dan martin after the crash. they all knew about it (uran, bardet, was behind porte), plus there is no way you didn't hear that crash.

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

i'm happy to see nairo drop in the standings. he has no value add in stage races. he just waits and waits and waits. not to mention he's cooked from the giro.

hats off to froome. he marked porte, martin, and aru.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [echappist] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 10:56

Post #46 of 86 Views: 3559

I can't answer that, but on another topic, Nairo probably thought he could pull off the Giro + TdF double and be competitive with Froome based on his TdF + Vuelta double last year, but in that case Froome also did both. Looks like Contador is done....he needs to stage hunt now.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:19

Post #47 of 86 Views: 3518

ahhchon wrote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

Uran, Fru and Fulsang were pulling for themselves, trying not to lose time to Bardet.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:29

Post #48 of 86 Views: 3499

gregf83 wrote:

ahhchon wrote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

Uran, Fru and Fulsang were pulling for themselves, trying not to lose time to Bardet.

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing.

chris froome is the strongest riding in the tour. you have a better chance beating bardet up the future climbs than froome. tactical fail today.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:39

Post #49 of 86 Views: 3482

devashish_paul wrote:

ChrisC42780 wrote:

Of course they won't and no one will do anything about it.

Hopefully Matthews & Sunweb protests since he is deserving of the green jersey

I hope Sunweb protests. Matthews has been awesome today and bagged the 20 points at the intermediate sprint. It puts Matthews at 160 pts, Demare 182, Kittel 212.

this is from VeloNews via Steephill

Quote:

Arnaud Démare,winner of the Tour's fourth stage ... finished the challenging mountain stage in a group around 40 minutes down. That put him outside the time limit, and therefore out of the Tour, along with six other riders:

Mickaël Delage (FDJ) and Ignatas Konovalovas (FDJ)
Juraj Sagan (Bora-Hansgrohe)
Matteo Trentin (Quick-Step Floors)
Mark Renshaw (Dimension Data)
Jacopo Guarnieri (Astana)

1 - lets see if the organizers have the guts to not find an exception
2 - to be fair, Delage and Konovalovas were hitched to Demare
3 - Sagan and Renshaw are gonna go have beers with their friends

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:43

Post #50 of 86 Views: 3475

ahhchon wrote:

gregf83 wrote:

ahhchon wrote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

Uran, Fru and Fulsang were pulling for themselves, trying not to lose time to Bardet.

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing.

chris froome is the strongest riding in the tour. you have a better chance beating bardet up the future climbs than froome. tactical fail today.

Fuglsang blew the sprint starting at half a km out. Do the math. At 60 kph, 500m is 30 seconds. That's beyond the time that your fast twitch fibers can last. There is a reason sprinters save it for the final 200m. I can understand both Aru and Fuglsang hammering the final stretch to try to get the time bonuses and also gap the chasers (ex Dan Martin, Quintana), but they blew the sprint.

I'm still really bummed about Porte's crash, mainly for his health. I hope he is fine long term more than anything. That guys is awesome. Here is the velonew article which makes things sound decent enough from the crash site based on what the TdF doc said:

http://www.velonews.com/...-porte-afraid_443211

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:44

Post #51 of 86 Views: 4051

ahhchon wrote:

honestly, the stage was exciting, but sometimes the finish dulls it.

i'm tired of this "don't attack yellow bla bla bla". it's a damn race. part of the race is having your shit together. i didn't see froome etc wait for dan martin after the crash. they all knew about it (uran, bardet, was behind porte), plus there is no way you didn't hear that crash.

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

i'm happy to see nairo drop in the standings. he has no value add in stage races. he just waits and waits and waits. not to mention he's cooked from the giro.

hats off to froome. he marked porte, martin, and aru.

Swings and roundabouts, Froome had pulled everyone to the top of the last mountain.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:48

Post #52 of 86 Views: 4046

ahhchon wrote:

[makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet.

You could make that same statement about all 4 riders and then they wouldn't have caught bardet.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:56

Post #53 of 86 Views: 4033

devashish_paul wrote:

I can't answer that, but on another topic, Nairo probably thought he could pull off the Giro + TdF double and be competitive with Froome based on his TdF + Vuelta double last year, but in that case Froome also did both. Looks like Contador is done....he needs to stage hunt now.

i may be wrong, but i think Barguil hasn't won anything since those two stages of the 2013 Vuelta

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 11:58

Post #54 of 86 Views: 4027

Watching the stage again, a lot of that descent was new pavement. Robbie McEwan was thinking it may even by new since the Dauphine. In any case, with the recent rain it was still wet and maybe oily. A solo descent in that or being the front guy would have been much better than how tight these guys were. Fuglsang, actually played it pretty smart on a lot of it, leaving a larger safety gap even though the downside was potentially getting dropped.

I am also still totally confused on how Porte ends up going off the left side of the road. It makes zero sense. His momentum should pull him to the outside (which is what happened after the crash). I wonder if just before he went off the left he had flatted and a soft rear wheel was losing traction. The view from the camera is obscured since Martin is behind him so you don't see that shook out to send him off to the left.

Does anyone have any updates on the Demare time cut. Cycling news shows him no longer in the points standings, so I assume a bunch of them are formally out of the TdF

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jul 9, 17 12:04

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:28

Post #55 of 86 Views: 3895

Dev,

I agree, super weird the way Porte crashed on the inside of that turn. He seemed to be going straight into the inside rather than swinging out wide. If not a flat then maybe just bonkie from the effort of the day and loss of concentration.

Uran's mechanical stems from Porte's crash.....Porte takes down Dan Martin who bashes against the wall of rock and is spit back out onto the road. At that point Martin's heel hits Uran's rear derailleur, just as Rigoberto sneaks by. Uran was running an 11x30 cassette today and then ~2k later, when he rolled back to neutral support, I think he just asked the tech to pull the plug on the Di2 so it would drop to the 11. It was "mostly" flat so he'd be down to two choices: 39x11 and 53x11. Fascinating on how the pieces fell together on the day.

Not just Damare OTL but the 3 FDJ guys who rode with him out too (Delange, Konovalovas, Guamieri). So FDJ is down to Thibaut Pinot and ??? Le Gac (last man on GC - I think he's been dealing with an illness since day one), Cimolai (who's only 5 up from Le Gac), Vichot & Molard (those last two are ahead of Pinot on GC). The ups and downs of FDJ!!!

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:28

Post #56 of 86 Views: 3894

devashish_paul wrote:

Does anyone have any updates on the Demare time cut. Cycling news shows him no longer in the points standings, so I assume a bunch of them are formally out of the TdF

Quite a few out either from crashes or time limit:

OTL Juraj Sagan (Svk) Bora-Hansgrohe

OTL Matteo Trentin (Ita) Quick-Step Floors

OTL Mark Renshaw (Aus) Dimension Data

OTL Ignatas Konovalovas (Ltu) FDJ

OTL Jacopo Guarnieri (Ita) FDJ

OTL Mickael Delage (Fra) FDJ

OTL Arnaud Demare (Fra) FDJ

DNF Jos Van Emden (Ned) Team LottoNl-Jumbo

DNF Robert Gesink (Ned) Team LottoNl-Jumbo

DNF Manuele Mori (Ita) UAE Team Emirates

DNF Richie Porte (Aus) BMC Racing Team

DNF Geraint Thomas (GBr) Team Sky

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:32

Post #57 of 86 Views: 3879

It looked to me as though he got on the wrong side of another rider and had nowhere else to go.

Will have to look again to be sure.

As for not pullin for Froome. They weren't. They wanted the stage win and the time bonuses and to catch Bardet. And if they hadn't worked hard how close would the guys behind have gotten? Racing another 5 for the win is better than a other 7.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ilanias] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:34

Post #58 of 86 Views: 3876

Demare couldn't find a car to hang onto? Je suis desole'.

Sucks about Porte. He was (and has been this season) looking like he could win it.

Awesome ride by Rigo!!!!!!!!!!! Good for Cdale.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:38

Post #59 of 86 Views: 3865

Quote:

Uran was running an 11x30 cassette today and then ~2k later, when he rolled back to neutral support, I think he just asked the tech to pull the plug on the Di2 so it would drop to the 11. It was "mostly" flat so he'd be down to two choices: 39x11 and 53x11. Fascinating on how the pieces fell together on the day.

From Mavic twitter page:

Quote:

Mavic‏ @Mavic 5h
5 hours ago
More
. @UranRigoberto had a bent hanger + couldn't shift accurately. He asked our mechanic to put it in the 11t and we obliged. Congrats Rigo!
5 replies55 retweets193 likes

I was watching and wondered why Rigo kept motioning for support on the descent. Then saw them working on the RD. He really struggled on the little rise in the last 10K. Standing and spinning very slowly at half the cadence of the others.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:47

Post #60 of 86 Views: 3841

BayDad wrote:

It looked to me as though he got on the wrong side of another rider and had nowhere else to go.

Will have to look again to be sure.

As for not pullin for Froome. They weren't. They wanted the stage win and the time bonuses and to catch Bardet. And if they hadn't worked hard how close would the guys behind have gotten? Racing another 5 for the win is better than a other 7.

I think we would need to see the video around 5-10 seconds earlier to see how the line into that turn that Porte went on the inside of got set up (or even before the exit of the previous turn to see how they came out which sets up the next one). It's just funky that he ends up going off the road on the left side. Makes no sense without seeing why he was on that trajectory in the first place. When he goes off the road he has not even started the coutersteer with his left hand to turn left and his back wheel is pointing "right" instead of "left" (as you would expect at that point when he should have been set up to execute and come out of the left turn. So it just seems like we're not seeing the full picture from 5-10 seconds ago.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [H-] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:48

Post #61 of 86 Views: 3839

[/quote]I was watching and wondered why Rigo kept motioning for support on the descent. Then saw them working on the RD. He really struggled on the little rise in the last 10K. Standing and spinning very slowly at half the cadence of the others.[/quote]
not only the struggle on that little rise but it took him forever to wide up that 53x11 for the sprint - making the win all that more incredible.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 13:56

Post #62 of 86 Views: 3824

I missed the sprint as my crappy steep hill link feed cut out. First time in years that I have not bought the NBC TDF package. But after the Sagan miscarriage of justice I "quit" the Tour this year. Ok, I couldn't resist peeking in today.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [H-] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 14:10

Post #63 of 86 Views: 3800

H- wrote:

I missed the sprint as my crappy steep hill link feed cut out. First time in years that I have not bought the NBC TDF package. But after the Sagan miscarriage of justice I "quit" the Tour this year. Ok, I couldn't resist peeking in today.

no Sagan, no Porte to challenge the Froomer and Sky, can't root for Aru who clearly went on the Zakarin diet plan....so hoping Rigo and Bardet and Martin hang in and maybe somebody else blows up at some point

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 14:18

Post #64 of 86 Views: 3793

devashish_paul wrote:

BayDad wrote:

It looked to me as though he got on the wrong side of another rider and had nowhere else to go.

Will have to look again to be sure.

As for not pullin for Froome. They weren't. They wanted the stage win and the time bonuses and to catch Bardet. And if they hadn't worked hard how close would the guys behind have gotten? Racing another 5 for the win is better than a other 7.

I think we would need to see the video around 5-10 seconds earlier to see how the line into that turn that Porte went on the inside of got set up (or even before the exit of the previous turn to see how they came out which sets up the next one). It's just funky that he ends up going off the road on the left side. Makes no sense without seeing why he was on that trajectory in the first place. When he goes off the road he has not even started the coutersteer with his left hand to turn left and his back wheel is pointing "right" instead of "left" (as you would expect at that point when he should have been set up to execute and come out of the left turn. So it just seems like we're not seeing the full picture from 5-10 seconds ago.

APparently Martin has said Porte locked his rear and that sent him out of control. Weird that it would send him there though.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [BayDad] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 14:31

Post #65 of 86 Views: 3767

BayDad wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

BayDad wrote:

It looked to me as though he got on the wrong side of another rider and had nowhere else to go.

Will have to look again to be sure.

As for not pullin for Froome. They weren't. They wanted the stage win and the time bonuses and to catch Bardet. And if they hadn't worked hard how close would the guys behind have gotten? Racing another 5 for the win is better than a other 7.

I think we would need to see the video around 5-10 seconds earlier to see how the line into that turn that Porte went on the inside of got set up (or even before the exit of the previous turn to see how they came out which sets up the next one). It's just funky that he ends up going off the road on the left side. Makes no sense without seeing why he was on that trajectory in the first place. When he goes off the road he has not even started the coutersteer with his left hand to turn left and his back wheel is pointing "right" instead of "left" (as you would expect at that point when he should have been set up to execute and come out of the left turn. So it just seems like we're not seeing the full picture from 5-10 seconds ago.

APparently Martin has said Porte locked his rear and that sent him out of control. Weird that it would send him there though.

If he locked his wheel in the previous turn, then it makes sense where he ends up. Kind of like a slalom skier. You have to set up during this gate to enter and come out of the next gate. If you set up wrong in this gate, you might make it through this one, but you don't have a chance in the next gate. If something locked up before we see the video it makes sense where Porte is on the left side heading for the inside. That's the only thing I can think of. When the video starts in this article:

http://www.velonews.com/...-porte-afraid_443211

we're already not seeing the whole picture of what happens before

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 15:11

Post #66 of 86 Views: 3723

See, this is the definitive answer to whether you should use 2x.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 15:18

Post #67 of 86 Views: 3714

This +100
Wtf? Why ffs arent they letting froome doing all the chase work the last kilometers?

This is the stupidest thing ever. These guys already gave up and are battling for 2nd and 3th place. Disgusting too watch.

Compare this with the Giro... There they at least fighting for the 1st place.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 15:38

Post #68 of 86 Views: 3681

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing. //

Sometimes you just get to a point where you have to concede to a guy on the day and fight the battles that are behind you. If he or anyone else did what you advocate here it could have ended the chase all together. And in the end Froome still has yellow, only now the guys breathing down their necks in the top 15 are much closer. I don't think drilling that break was a mistake at all, it was what it was so you make the best of a rare situation to put time on guys that for sure will be challenging you later on. It would have been a wasted opportunity after forcing that rare little break to just let it expire, or not take full time advantage of it. You think if everyone sits on Froome is still going to pull his guts out? No way, he did the single hardest job and that was to form that little group, no one else was going to do that. The fact that he would still participate in it was a bonus for them, not something to look at and think maybe I could be a passenger here.

In the end you live to fight another day, but now with more distance between you and the next dozen riders, I would say good day for all of them that finished in that break..

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [monty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 17:09

Post #69 of 86 Views: 3596

monty wrote:

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing. //

Sometimes you just get to a point where you have to concede to a guy on the day and fight the battles that are behind you. If he or anyone else did what you advocate here it could have ended the chase all together. And in the end Froome still has yellow, only now the guys breathing down their necks in the top 15 are much closer. I don't think drilling that break was a mistake at all, it was what it was so you make the best of a rare situation to put time on guys that for sure will be challenging you later on. It would have been a wasted opportunity after forcing that rare little break to just let it expire, or not take full time advantage of it. You think if everyone sits on Froome is still going to pull his guts out? No way, he did the single hardest job and that was to form that little group, no one else was going to do that. The fact that he would still participate in it was a bonus for them, not something to look at and think maybe I could be a passenger here.

In the end you live to fight another day, but now with more distance between you and the next dozen riders, I would say good day for all of them that finished in that break..

Totally spot on. Really good analysis.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 19:58

Post #70 of 86 Views: 3436

devashish_paul wrote:

Watching the stage again, a lot of that descent was new pavement. Robbie McEwan was thinking it may even by new since the Dauphine. In any case, with the recent rain it was still wet and maybe oily. A solo descent in that or being the front guy would have been much better than how tight these guys were. Fuglsang, actually played it pretty smart on a lot of it, leaving a larger safety gap even though the downside was potentially getting dropped.

I am also still totally confused on how Porte ends up going off the left side of the road. It makes zero sense. His momentum should pull him to the outside (which is what happened after the crash). I wonder if just before he went off the left he had flatted and a soft rear wheel was losing traction. The view from the camera is obscured since Martin is behind him so you don't see that shook out to send him off to the left.

Does anyone have any updates on the Demare time cut. Cycling news shows him no longer in the points standings, so I assume a bunch of them are formally out of the TdF

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlE1Mhu4WA
This is the porte crash, Kirby says "damp in places....." and then porte goes off
Man, that looked painfull, wishing Richie a full speedy healing..
Dan Martin was lucky he didn't break something
Uran is my new hero, gets a bent derailleur from Martins flailing foot, goes down to 2 geaRs, and still wins a brunch sprint from some of the best riders on the planet.

res, non verba

Last edited by: RoYe: Jul 9, 17 22:04

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [monty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 20:10

Post #71 of 86 Views: 3421

monty wrote:

In the end you live to fight another day, but now with more distance between you and the next dozen riders, I would say good day for all of them that finished in that break..

x2. I have a hard time criticizing Aru there.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 20:28

Post #72 of 86 Views: 3396

ahhchon wrote:

gregf83 wrote:

ahhchon wrote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.

Uran, Fru and Fulsang were pulling for themselves, trying not to lose time to Bardet.

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing.

chris froome is the strongest riding in the tour. you have a better chance beating bardet up the future climbs than froome. tactical fail today.

YES 10x

I was screaming at my TV (happens every year, the others except Bardet are racing for 2nd only, unfortunately)

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [monty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 20:37

Post #73 of 86 Views: 3388

monty wrote:

makes zero sense for aru to pull. had he done ZERO work the group would have caught bardet. he may have had more legs to go for the time bonuses. instead, froome takes another 4 seconds on him. poor fulsang, did all that work, for nothing. //

Sometimes you just get to a point where you have to concede to a guy on the day and fight the battles that are behind you. If he or anyone else did what you advocate here it could have ended the chase all together. And in the end Froome still has yellow, only now the guys breathing down their necks in the top 15 are much closer. I don't think drilling that break was a mistake at all, it was what it was so you make the best of a rare situation to put time on guys that for sure will be challenging you later on. It would have been a wasted opportunity after forcing that rare little break to just let it expire, or not take full time advantage of it. You think if everyone sits on Froome is still going to pull his guts out? No way, he did the single hardest job and that was to form that little group, no one else was going to do that. The fact that he would still participate in it was a bonus for them, not something to look at and think maybe I could be a passenger here.

In the end you live to fight another day, but now with more distance between you and the next dozen riders, I would say good day for all of them that finished in that break..

I disagree with you. You make Froome work (he would have, wouldn't want to lose too much time to Bardet) and try to attack him closer to the finish to gain time on him. The thing is they don't believe they can beat Froome, so they race for 2nd.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 23:10

Post #74 of 86 Views: 3293

Quote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.
i'm happy to see nairo drop in the standings. he has no value add in stage races.

Those two paragraphs don't make sense. Pick one.

Want to see Nairo drop, then you can't complain that Aru and Fulgsang worked to keep their margin on him. (I'm sure Aru and Fulgsang are happy to see NQ drop as well.)

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [H-] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 17 23:33

Post #75 of 86 Views: 3282

H- wrote:

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

This. In cycling you always seek to narrow the odds. Aru and Fuglsang narrowed the odds.

I chuckle at everyone who suggests that Froome would have worked if Aru and Fuglsang hadn't. That's not how bike racing works. If you want the GC leader to do work, send someone dangerous up the road. No one dangerous was able to get up the road, and it wasn't going to happen after the crest of the climb. There was no dropping Froome at that point. So you might as well stick a dagger in Quintana. And then hope a chink in Froome's nearly impenetrable armor appears sometime in the (considerable) remaining stages.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 4:43

Post #76 of 86 Views: 1871

trail wrote:

H- wrote:

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

This. In cycling you always seek to narrow the odds. Aru and Fuglsang narrowed the odds.

I chuckle at everyone who suggests that Froome would have worked if Aru and Fuglsang hadn't. That's not how bike racing works. If you want the GC leader to do work, send someone dangerous up the road. No one dangerous was able to get up the road, and it wasn't going to happen after the crest of the climb. There was no dropping Froome at that point. So you might as well stick a dagger in Quintana. And then hope a chink in Froome's nearly impenetrable armor appears sometime in the (considerable) remaining stages.

Let's look at this another way. Bardet is up the road, Froome in the middle, Quintana behind. Quintana is on fried legs from the Giro, but he's still "kind of close enough to worry about". Bardet, is fresh and a threat for the win. In week 3 when everyone is on fried legs, maybe Quintana is more of a threat. By driving hard, Aru+Fuglsang are eliminating as much as they can future threats from Bardet and Quintana (and Martin). Froome would be motivated to do the same rather than let Bardet get more of a lead and Quintana/Martin get closer. So everyone in that group kind of had to hammer hard for the same reasons.

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jul 10, 17 6:35

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 6:12

Post #77 of 86 Views: 1802

Some fans were frustrated that Aru and Fulgsang didn't try taking turns to attack Froome in the last 15 km, but if you gameplay it, looks like a bad gamble. First, for them its a three week tour going for GC not a stage win, so important to make time on Quintana and Martin and not lose any to Bardet, and second they've just raced hard over 4700 vertical metres. Only Aru knows how his legs felt at the end of the stage, but for sure Froome will be marking him and likely with the fatigue it's a major ask for him to make a killer attack that Froome or Uran cannot chase down. Worse, as soon as he tries that attack, everyone in the group starts dicking around and/or making their own attacks, all cooperation is blown to bits, the Quintana/Martin group behind starts coming back at him, and Bardet makes ground ahead. As always, pick your battles carefully.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 11:19

Post #78 of 86 Views: 1661

devashish_paul wrote:

trail wrote:

H- wrote:

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

This. In cycling you always seek to narrow the odds. Aru and Fuglsang narrowed the odds.

I chuckle at everyone who suggests that Froome would have worked if Aru and Fuglsang hadn't. That's not how bike racing works. If you want the GC leader to do work, send someone dangerous up the road. No one dangerous was able to get up the road, and it wasn't going to happen after the crest of the climb. There was no dropping Froome at that point. So you might as well stick a dagger in Quintana. And then hope a chink in Froome's nearly impenetrable armor appears sometime in the (considerable) remaining stages.

Let's look at this another way. Bardet is up the road, Froome in the middle, Quintana behind. Quintana is on fried legs from the Giro, but he's still "kind of close enough to worry about". Bardet, is fresh and a threat for the win. In week 3 when everyone is on fried legs, maybe Quintana is more of a threat. By driving hard, Aru+Fuglsang are eliminating as much as they can future threats from Bardet and Quintana (and Martin). Froome would be motivated to do the same rather than let Bardet get more of a lead and Quintana/Martin get closer. So everyone in that group kind of had to hammer hard for the same reasons.

Yup, you play the odds and look at the probable outcome after the stage, and the possible outcomes as a result of it at the end of the tour.

By Aru and Fuglsang working with Froome they assured that Bardet would not gain time, and also assured that they would gain time on Quintana and Martin. Those were sure thing outcomes of their actions the instant they committed to it, and the benefit was huge to Aru in that he solidifies his podium spot and also opens up Fuglsang for a podium spot.

If Aru and Fuglsang didn't work with Froome they are taking a HUGE gamble. They aren't sure how Froome is going to react...maybe he just sits up and lets the Martin/Quintana group catch up...and also lets Bardet get away thinking he can make up the time later? That would be a huge loss for Aru/Fuglsang if that happened. Or maybe Froome does do work at the front, it still allows Bardet to get some time, it allows Quintana/Martin to lose less time, and Froome doesn't get dropped when Aru/Fuglsang attack him? Then what?

I think Astana was presented with a sure thing, low risk, high reward play and they took it. At the end of the day, they are still only 18 seconds down to Froome with 2 weeks to go and Thomas out of the race. They have a good grip on 2nd, maintain a gap over Bardet.

In my mind, Aru isn't going to beat Froome straight up. He needs to have Froome have a bad day (or crash), but at the same time he also needs to hold off Bardet. Those 33 seconds he currently still holds on Bardet are really valuable and he shouldn't be looking to give those up just to eek a few seconds on Froome. You just gotta be realistic at some point.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 13:27

Post #79 of 86 Views: 1593

Quote:

If he locked his wheel in the previous turn, then it makes sense where he ends up. Kind of like a slalom skier. You have to set up during this gate to enter and come out of the next gate. If you set up wrong in this gate, you might make it through this one, but you don't have a chance in the next gate. If something locked up before we see the video it makes sense where Porte is on the left side heading for the inside. That's the only thing I can think of. When the video starts in this article:

You guessed it!
From a Dan Martin interview:

"Richie locked up his back wheel, went straight into the grass, just wiped out, and his bike just collected me. I had nowhere to go,” Martin said after crossing the line in Chambery.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [H-] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 13:31

Post #80 of 86 Views: 1586

H- wrote:

Quote:

then watching fulsang and aru pulling for froome. it's like. wtf are you guys doing. watch the last 10-14k. froome's longest pull was 20-25 seconds. all his other pulls were sooooo short compared to everyone else. he played aru and fulsang haaaard.
i'm happy to see nairo drop in the standings. he has no value add in stage races.

Those two paragraphs don't make sense. Pick one.

Want to see Nairo drop, then you can't complain that Aru and Fulgsang worked to keep their margin on him. (I'm sure Aru and Fulgsang are happy to see NQ drop as well.)

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

Fulgsang loses his job if he doesn't smash it for Aru. Period. 2 weeks left.

Last edited by: McNulty: Jul 10, 17 13:32

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [McNulty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 15:11

Post #81 of 86 Views: 1533

McNulty wrote:

Fulgsang loses his job if he doesn't smash it for Aru. Period. 2 weeks left.

nope, fuglsang signed a 2 year contract extension with astana after the dauphine (likely at an improved pay grade) so his job is secure whatever happens

aru on the other hand is out of contract at the end of the year and seeking a good result to bump his pay grade.

not sure this is particularly relevant to the day's tactics, though it could be over the next 2 weeks

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [ahhchon] [ In reply to ]

Jul 10, 17 15:55

Post #82 of 86 Views: 1516

ahhchon wrote:

honestly, the stage was exciting, but sometimes the finish dulls it.

i'm tired of this "don't attack yellow bla bla bla". it's a damn race. part of the race is having your shit together. i didn't see froome etc wait for dan martin after the crash. they all knew about it (uran, bardet, was behind porte), plus there is no way you didn't hear that crash.

If the race was on, as in the GC attacks were happening, then I would agree with you. But at the time, all the GC guys were waiting while sitting behind the Sky train. If GC gaps had already formed, then by all means, tough shit, just like it was for Martin as he crashed after GC guys had been dropped. Same goes on a sprinter stage if you flat with 5 km to go...the peloton is not going to slow down for you because the race for the stage is on. But 50 km out...you have more forgiveness.

Maybe the other GC guys should be blaming themselves for not attacking earlier and forcing a situation like this instead of just sitting in until the very end of the last climb. I mean...it's a damn race...right?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]

Jul 11, 17 5:17

Post #83 of 86 Views: 1421

Jason N wrote:

ahhchon wrote:

honestly, the stage was exciting, but sometimes the finish dulls it.

i'm tired of this "don't attack yellow bla bla bla". it's a damn race. part of the race is having your shit together. i didn't see froome etc wait for dan martin after the crash. they all knew about it (uran, bardet, was behind porte), plus there is no way you didn't hear that crash.

If the race was on, as in the GC attacks were happening, then I would agree with you. But at the time, all the GC guys were waiting while sitting behind the Sky train. If GC gaps had already formed, then by all means, tough shit, just like it was for Martin as he crashed after GC guys had been dropped. Same goes on a sprinter stage if you flat with 5 km to go...the peloton is not going to slow down for you because the race for the stage is on. But 50 km out...you have more forgiveness.

Maybe the other GC guys should be blaming themselves for not attacking earlier and forcing a situation like this instead of just sitting in until the very end of the last climb. I mean...it's a damn race...right?

Hindsight is 20/20, but knowing how sketchy that decent was, the one rider that should have gone on a crazy attack with 1K to go to the summit should have been Richie Porte since he was the least technically strong descender. This would have given him cleaner lines down the mountain that doing it in close proximity with others while having to stay in contact due to the GC battle. But, maybe he was done and like everyone else they could not keep up with Froome over the Mont du Chat. So then they were stuck having to pace off him on the descent. The front guy gets to pick his line. Everyone else are trying to stay in contact, but don't get to pick their line. I think Fuglsang on the second half of the descent had enough of having to react to everyone else's line and dropped back a fair distance so he could pick his lines. Commentators were saying that he was risking losing contact (and he had) but he was able to lay down the hammer to re attach when it got safer. HIndsight and our monday morning QBing is 20/20, but also the riders would have been influenced by the nature of that descent during the dry Dauphine which was different than the damp TdF. I believe at the Dauphine they were not so tightly bunched starting the descent either. That's a big diff on the relative sketchiness of the descent.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 11, 17 5:54

Post #84 of 86 Views: 1396

To inject anot her debate topic into this thread, thought I had yesterday when talking to a fellow cyclist fan coworker about the crash...

Is it any less likely that Richie would have locked up his wheel if he had been riding on disc brakes? Full disclosure I've never ridden a disc brake road bike so not speaking from direct experience so I could be off base, but just going with what I've read on better control, modulation, etc...

Perhaps another piece of ammo for discs to find their way onto more guys bikes in the pro peloton, at least during stages with treacherous, sinuous, narrow, possibly wet mountain stages?

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 11, 17 11:27

Post #85 of 86 Views: 1331

Hate to bring this thread back up but I missed Lance's podcast about stage 9. He (and he mentions Hincape) thought Astana pulling Froome was insane (just before the 20 minute mark). Earlier in the podcast he has some fun comments, and thoughts about Froome and his gearing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLdNQgNzhRE

devashish_paul wrote:

trail wrote:

H- wrote:

Want to see Aru and Fulgsang refuse to work, then Froome will too, and NQ comes back. How stupid would Astana look then? Got a gap on the climb and then piss it away. Do you really think you might see this happen? Can you imagine what Vino would do to them if they did that?

This. In cycling you always seek to narrow the odds. Aru and Fuglsang narrowed the odds.

I chuckle at everyone who suggests that Froome would have worked if Aru and Fuglsang hadn't. That's not how bike racing works. If you want the GC leader to do work, send someone dangerous up the road. No one dangerous was able to get up the road, and it wasn't going to happen after the crest of the climb. There was no dropping Froome at that point. So you might as well stick a dagger in Quintana. And then hope a chink in Froome's nearly impenetrable armor appears sometime in the (considerable) remaining stages.

Let's look at this another way. Bardet is up the road, Froome in the middle, Quintana behind. Quintana is on fried legs from the Giro, but he's still "kind of close enough to worry about". Bardet, is fresh and a threat for the win. In week 3 when everyone is on fried legs, maybe Quintana is more of a threat. By driving hard, Aru+Fuglsang are eliminating as much as they can future threats from Bardet and Quintana (and Martin). Froome would be motivated to do the same rather than let Bardet get more of a lead and Quintana/Martin get closer. So everyone in that group kind of had to hammer hard for the same reasons.

Re: TDF 9 4600m of vertical-explosions coming up on the "Cat" Climb? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jul 11, 17 11:38

Post #86 of 86 Views: 1319

devashish_paul wrote:

Hindsight is 20/20, but knowing how sketchy that decent was, the one rider that should have gone on a crazy attack with 1K to go to the summit should have been Richie Porte since he was the least technically strong descender. This would have given him cleaner lines down the mountain that doing it in close proximity with others while having to stay in contact due to the GC battle. But, maybe he was done and like everyone else they could not keep up with Froome over the Mont du Chat. So then they were stuck having to pace off him on the descent. The front guy gets to pick his line. Everyone else are trying to stay in contact, but don't get to pick their line.

I have to imagine that Porte didn't have it in him to attack Froome during the last few km of the climb. If there was any time to attack Froome, it would be on the hardest climb right after Froome burned a match bridging back up and Porte had a few moments of rest as Martin called off Aru's attack.

Or maybe Aru's attack put all of those guys into the red, and Froome was actually in better shape because he TT'd it back up to the group rather than jumping hard?

But in general, I agree that coming over the climb first allows you to pick your own line, and that makes a huge difference in a narrow descent. Kudos to Bardet for actually getting around Froome and controlling his own destiny. Easily could have been him instead of, or with Martin if he hung back.

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