Worst Job Ever?

Apr 10, 17 9:26

Post #1 of 64 Views: 5548

Candidate 1: The United Airlines Public Relations Crisis Manager

I just came across this in my news Feed: "A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight. So he was dragged off, battered and limp."
Apparently they overbooked the flight, forcibly ejected some paying passengers. And then gave the seats to United employees.
Regardless of how this went down this looks bad as a headline for Untied.

And that got me thinking of how often I've seen United in the news in similar customer service scandals.

There was the case a few weeks ago when two girls were denied boarding because they were wearing leggings ( http://www.cnbc.com/...united-airlines.html ) It should not have been a scandal but for about a week there were headlines in both left and right leaning papers that made it seem like United was 2 steps away from demanding young girls wear hijabs. Then there was the recent scandal where United carried a money losing flight to provide the Chairman easy transport to his house in S.C. - it involved bribery and effectively stole from the shareholders.
And all this made me think back to a case study I read in business school about the power of viral social media and how it can affect companies. United had the grand-daddy of all these when a viral music video describing what happened gathers tens of millions of views. https://en.wikipedia.org/...nited_Breaks_Guitars

The funny thing is that no matter how crappily airlines seem to treat their customers, they don't seem to lose business over it. The overwhelming factor in the industry is price - as long as your flight is $20 cheaper than the competitors you get the business.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 9:34

Post #2 of 64 Views: 5526

I thought this was a thread about Sean Spicer....

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 9:39

Post #3 of 64 Views: 5500

Yeah. Not much room to spin that other than "Hey, he now has a great story to tell when he books his next flights with ABU."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 9:51

Post #4 of 64 Views: 5464

I remember getting this t-shirt by mail order from a hot rod magazine back in the 70s

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 9:55

Post #5 of 64 Views: 5452

This guy, always and forever:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...hes-dead-bodies.html

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 9:59

Post #6 of 64 Views: 5435

I know someone whose community service hours were spent hosing out garbage trucks ... during the summer

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:02

Post #7 of 64 Views: 5421

Guffaw wrote:

The funny thing is that no matter how crappily airlines seem to treat their customers, they don't seem to lose business over it. The overwhelming factor in the industry is price - as long as your flight is $20 cheaper than the competitors you get the business.

Make your business a commodity with an incredibly high barrier to entry - you're guaranteed to always win. Essentially airlines are a monopoly, despite there being "choice." You are stuck as a consumer in the race to the bottom, and everyone gets on board because they are forced to.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:08

Post #8 of 64 Views: 5402

j p o wrote:

This guy, always and forever:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...hes-dead-bodies.html

4 dives a month?? Boohoo cry me a river.

I miss YaHey

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:16

Post #9 of 64 Views: 5389

Leggings?...

Or leggings?...

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Re: Worst Job Ever? [redfox29] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:23

Post #10 of 64 Views: 5371

redfox29 wrote:

Guffaw wrote:

The funny thing is that no matter how crappily airlines seem to treat their customers, they don't seem to lose business over it. The overwhelming factor in the industry is price - as long as your flight is $20 cheaper than the competitors you get the business.

Make your business a commodity with an incredibly high barrier to entry - you're guaranteed to always win. Essentially airlines are a monopoly, despite there being "choice." You are stuck as a consumer in the race to the bottom, and everyone gets on board because they are forced to.

No.
It is quite the opposite.
Airlines always lose.
Airlines are driven by price competition into a perpetual fight to the death.

Every 8 years every airline goes bankrupt.
The airlines jettison their debt.
And start all over, selling airline tickets at a loss.
Repeat... every 7 years.

Recently airlines are trying to make money with weird fees and penalties.
"This ticket IS transferable but only if you pay $600."
We will see if that works.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:44

Post #11 of 64 Views: 5328

The South Carolina fiasco was about the Chairman of the Port Authority of NY/NJ, not of United. Essentially he told United that they could get their new hangar at Newark if they established a flight directly from there to somewhere in SC. A total money-loser, but they got their hangar. When Samsom was forced to resign, they stopped the flights the next day. Samson later pled guilty to federal bribery charges.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Worst Job Ever? [j p o] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:47

Post #12 of 64 Views: 5323

j p o wrote:

This guy, always and forever:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...hes-dead-bodies.html[/quote[/url]]
+
HRC's Gynecologist

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 10:50

Post #13 of 64 Views: 5307

Pepsi should release a commercial with Kendall Jenner walking back from first class and handing the flight crew Pepsis.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:07

Post #14 of 64 Views: 5262

Guffaw wrote:

Candidate 1: The United Airlines Public Relations Crisis Manager

I just came across this in my news Feed: "A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight. So he was dragged off, battered and limp."
Apparently they overbooked the flight, forcibly ejected some paying passengers. And then gave the seats to United employees.
Regardless of how this went down this looks bad as a headline for Untied.

And that got me thinking of how often I've seen United in the news in similar customer service scandals.

There was the case a few weeks ago when two girls were denied boarding because they were wearing leggings ( http://www.cnbc.com/...united-airlines.html ) It should not have been a scandal but for about a week there were headlines in both left and right leaning papers that made it seem like United was 2 steps away from demanding young girls wear hijabs. Then there was the recent scandal where United carried a money losing flight to provide the Chairman easy transport to his house in S.C. - it involved bribery and effectively stole from the shareholders.
And all this made me think back to a case study I read in business school about the power of viral social media and how it can affect companies. United had the grand-daddy of all these when a viral music video describing what happened gathers tens of millions of views. https://en.wikipedia.org/...nited_Breaks_Guitars

The funny thing is that no matter how crappily airlines seem to treat their customers, they don't seem to lose business over it. The overwhelming factor in the industry is price - as long as your flight is $20 cheaper than the competitors you get the business.

On the positive side, based on the backlash I've seen/heard today United probably solved their overbooking issues for a while.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:18

Post #15 of 64 Views: 5234

sphere wrote:

Pepsi should release a commercial with Kendall Jenner walking back from first class and handing the flight crew Pepsis.

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:18

Post #16 of 64 Views: 5230

The overbooking thing drives me nuts, and with the frequency that it occurs, I'm not surprised this finally happened. Surely they could have handled it differently, but presuming the airline retains the right to cancel a reservation (and if they do, I'm guessing they all do), and they were prohibited from flying due to capacity restrictions, what choice did they have? They selected randomly, and the guy played the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM !?!" card--we all have important places to be, otherwise we wouldn't shell out a few hundred bucks for the flight--and threw an adult sized temper tantrum. My sympathy level for the good doctor is hovering around zero.

Life throws curve balls sometimes. Act like a damn grown up.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:25

Post #17 of 64 Views: 5215

Apparently federal law allows the airlines to pay up to about $1300 to get someone to volunteer to give up their seat. United was only willing to offer people on this flight 800 bucks for some reason.

Not sure why federal law even limits the amount an airline can pay for that, but at the least, United should have gone up to the legal max.

Also, the reason they needed to kick off four people was so that they could fly some employees to the destination to work another flight. Should have bumped the staff and figured out some other manpower solution. The good doctor paid his money for a specific flight. I get that there's some bullshit fine print, but the airline should have to honor its basic contractual obligations.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:33

Post #18 of 64 Views: 5200

Quote:

Rule 21 Refusal of Transport

UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:

Breach of Contract of Carriage – Failure by Passenger to comply with the Rules of the Contract of Carriage.
Government Request, Regulations or Security Directives – Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulation, Customs and Border Protection, government or airport security directive of any sort, or any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense....
UA is not liable for its refusal to transport any passenger or for its removal of any passenger in accordance with this Rule. A Passenger who is removed or refused transportation in accordance with this Rule may be eligible for a refund upon request.

Like I said, there were probably a few other good options before resorting to force, though we don't really know the details of why it may have been necessary to keep them on that flight schedule.

It seems like they were in full compliance with their contractual obligations, from what I've read. They should have offered a sweeter compensation for a flight bump to avoid having to enforce it, though. They've been getting skimpier by the year, in my experience, to the point where it's barely worth it even when I'm not on a tight schedule.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:37

Post #19 of 64 Views: 5191

<<lso, the reason they needed to kick off four people was so that they could fly some employees to the destination to work another flight. Should have bumped the staff and figured out some other manpower solution. The good doctor paid his money for a specific flight.>>

That's what got me about this story too. If it was 2 paying customers and 1 got randomly selected for a bump, then I kind of get it (though the overbooking principle bugs me in the first place). But to hose a customer like that in order to give preference to your staff just looks terrible.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:38

Post #20 of 64 Views: 5190

It seems like they were in full compliance with their contractual obligations, from what I've read.

Eh. Like I said, bullshit fine print. You pay for a ticket, you expect to fly.

Their staffing incompetency isn't the passenger's problem. I find it hard to believe there was no other solution other than flying those four staffers instead of four paying customers. And yeah, they definitely should have offered more money if they didn't get any takers.

Guy acted like a childish brat, but United is to blame for the situation, start to finish. Overbook a flight, unable to come up with an alternative staffing solution, refuse to offer enough to motivate someone to give up their seat . . . Lose, lose, lose.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [wimsey] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:51

Post #21 of 64 Views: 5154

It's a bad look, for sure. So what is an airline supposed to do in these instances? Presuming the overbooking is necessary to maintain reasonable rates, or whatever, and that all airline personnel on board were essential: If they're over capacity, they can't fly. Someone has to go. The airline reserves the right to cancel a reservation and remove passengers in order to comply with federal regulations. Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences? Do they allow a person who is no longer a passenger to effectively hold the plane hostage? I'm not saying the airline did everything possible to avoid this outcome--they manifestly did not--but at the end of the list of possible resolutions exists the option, or necessity, of forcibly removing a person from the aircraft. It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

The airline deserves the bad press for the way they handled it, skipping from resolution option C or D, directly to option Z. And the doctor ought to be embarrassed for how he behaved in response.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Last edited by: sphere: Apr 10, 17 11:54

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 11:59

Post #22 of 64 Views: 5134

sphere wrote:

It's a bad look, for sure. So what is an airline supposed to do in these instances? Presuming the overbooking is necessary to maintain reasonable rates, or whatever, and that all airline personnel on board were essential: If they're over capacity, they can't fly. Someone has to go. The airline reserves the right to cancel a reservation and remove passengers in order to comply with federal regulations. Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences? Do they allow a person who is no longer a passenger to effectively hold the plane hostage? I'm not saying the airline did everything possible to avoid this outcome--they manifestly did not--but at the end of the list of possible resolutions exists the option, or necessity, of forcibly removing a person from the aircraft. It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

The airline deserves the bad press for the way they handled it, skipping from resolution option C or D, directly to option Z. And the doctor ought to be embarrassed for how he behaved in response.

As vitus suggested in a prior post, they need to find a different way to solve their manpower issue at the destination (assuming they've first tried everything else, like offering up to the max amount to volunteers, which it sounds like they didn't). If they're over capacity, then their personnel who are trying to catch a ride should be the first ones out of luck. I understand that is not what the rules of carriage say - I get that they are probably within their rights to do what they did. What I'm saying is that they shouldn't have done it even though they were within their rights to do so.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:01

Post #23 of 64 Views: 5130

sphere wrote:

Quote:

Rule 21 Refusal of Transport

UA shall have the right to refuse to transport or shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons:

Breach of Contract of Carriage – Failure by Passenger to comply with the Rules of the Contract of Carriage.
Government Request, Regulations or Security Directives – Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulation, Customs and Border Protection, government or airport security directive of any sort, or any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense....
UA is not liable for its refusal to transport any passenger or for its removal of any passenger in accordance with this Rule. A Passenger who is removed or refused transportation in accordance with this Rule may be eligible for a refund upon request.

Like I said, there were probably a few other good options before resorting to force, though we don't really know the details of why it may have been necessary to keep them on that flight schedule.

It seems like they were in full compliance with their contractual obligations, from what I've read. They should have offered a sweeter compensation for a flight bump to avoid having to enforce it, though. They've been getting skimpier by the year, in my experience, to the point where it's barely worth it even when I'm not on a tight schedule.

Just because i've wasted a bunch of work already and just as devil's advocate.... (but yes in the end had they offered enough someone would have taken it)

What in Rule 21 did they comply with? He didn't breach the contract, there is no government request that he leave (only after he cops came, but that's cart before the horse, there has to be a valid reason for that removal request), #3 is just a CYA saying we're not liable if you're bags don't make it.

The applicable section is I think Rule 25, which sets forth the procedures for denial of boarding. And whether they complied is what they mean by "boarding" which they don't define. "denial of boarding." when does /can that occur/ Before getting on the plane? while in your seat. From a legal standpoint it can be argued wither way. From the report, which is probably as inaccurate as it is accurate, they selected randomly, which is not in line with Rule 25.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:09

Post #24 of 64 Views: 5101

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

and that all airline personnel on board were essential:

Essential and irreplaceable? I have a hard time buying that. If they are, United should build a good bit more redundancy into their staffing. What if one of them was sick? The nation's air travel system would crash?

Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences?

I'd be more willing to engage that question if United had even taken all the options available to resolve the situation- but it didn't, it was only willing to offer about 60% of the money it's allowed to offer to bump a passenger. And if it had gotten to the max (which, again, probably shouldn't be legally limited in the first place), it should have gotten creative with the incentives. Instead, they nickel and dimed the process, and then called in some goons.

It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

Well, yeah, but I don't particularly care about some doctor who throws a tantrum. I care about how the airlines treat their passengers, because I am a frequent passenger. Doctor acted like a child, but it did expose United's attitude towards its customers.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Last edited by: vitus979: Apr 10, 17 12:14

Re: Worst Job Ever? [wimsey] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:12

Post #25 of 64 Views: 5089

As with bumping the staff, chances are strong union contracts playing into this. If the staff is a pilot, he is probably has to fly a minimum of x amount of hours or they pay him for doing nothing. He has to be home after so many flights or United has to pay him extra. I'm not completely sure how the pilot contracts work but they are paid by hours in the air not a flat salary.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:16

Post #26 of 64 Views: 2172

AndysStrongAle wrote:

As with bumping the staff, chances are strong union contracts playing into this. If the staff is a pilot, he is probably has to fly a minimum of x amount of hours or they pay him for doing nothing. He has to be home after so many flights or United has to pay him extra. I'm not completely sure how the pilot contracts work but they are paid by hours in the air not a flat salary.

Quite possibly true. What is absolutely true is that I don't care - staffing and union headaches are United's responsibility, they shouldn't shaft a customer because they are having trouble managing their personnel schedule.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:26

Post #27 of 64 Views: 2155

vitus979 wrote:

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Worst Job Ever? [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:29

Post #28 of 64 Views: 2146

klehner wrote:

vitus979 wrote:

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).

Re: Worst Job Ever? [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:31

Post #29 of 64 Views: 2142

I would REALLY love to see a story about a university who threw a student off campus after he paid tuition because it's overbooked.

I mean, I would LOVE to read that story.

And while WTC is the devil's own company, has any triathlete ever been turned removed from the swim start after paying their money and setting up their transition areas because the race is too crowded?

I'm sure hotels overbook routinely, as do airlines. Personally, I've never been turned away at a hotel I've reserved because they're overbooked, and I've never seen anyone else with a reservation turned away, either.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:39

Post #30 of 64 Views: 2121

As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

Re: Worst Job Ever? [wimsey] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:43

Post #31 of 64 Views: 2111

wimsey wrote:

klehner wrote:

vitus979 wrote:

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).

Except that sometimes you do pay hotels in advance. An airline will refund if you don't want another flight. They often refund if you miss your flight.

Last edited by: AlanShearer: Apr 10, 17 12:45

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:44

Post #32 of 64 Views: 2107

And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot.

I think the cost of a ticket, pretty much by definition, ought to guarantee my spot on the plane.

And the doctor was being an ass.

Yes, but I don't care about some random doctor who acted like an ass. Maybe if he was my doctor, I'd care. But he's not, so I don't.

And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

It's not. But why is getting a stewardess to her job on time more important than fulfilling your obligation to a paying customer?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:53

Post #33 of 64 Views: 2092

AlanShearer wrote:

wimsey wrote:

klehner wrote:

vitus979 wrote:

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).

Except that sometimes you do pay hotels in advance. An airline will refund if you don't want another flight. They often refund if you miss your flight.

If I pay for a hotel in advance (which is rare, usually they're just holding my credit card info in case I'm a no-show) and it's overbooked (which has never happened to me), then they either refund me on the spot or find me another place and cover any additional cost.

When I've paid for a plane ticket in advance (always) and it's overbooked (has happened several times), my experience has been they say I either (1) have to wait for the next flight they choose to put me on; or (2) find another flight with another airline, but I have to pay the cost of that and then get a voucher for the flight I couldn't take because they overbooked it. I've only been bumped involuntarily a few times, but refund has never been part of the conversation - maybe I just didn't push hard enough for refund (and one time it was not that big a deal for me to wait for the next flight, so I didn't make an issue of it).

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 12:54

Post #34 of 64 Views: 2090

vitus979 wrote:

And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot.

I think the cost of a ticket, pretty much by definition, ought to guarantee my spot on the plane.

And the doctor was being an ass.

Yes, but I don't care about some random doctor who acted like an ass. Maybe if he was my doctor, I'd care. But he's not, so I don't.

And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

It's not. But why is getting a stewardess to her job on time more important than fulfilling your obligation to a paying customer?

Except you know that it doesn't guarantee your spot. And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking. Seems like you want to have it both ways -- you want a relatively low fare and you want to avoid the miniscule risk of being bumped. I read that something between 0.1% and 0.2% of all passengers get bumped, and the vast majority of those are voluntary. So when we're talking about involuntary bumpings, it's a nearly insignificant number.

And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:01

Post #35 of 64 Views: 2078

<<And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.>>

I think that's the crux of the issue. There's an 'efficient breach' kind of deal going on here where the airline is making the call that incoveniencing many in an aggregated, non-specific way is worse for business than specifically inconveniencing one person who feels unfairly singled out. In this particular case, I think it's backfiring on them - everyone is resigned to the fact that flights are delayed sometimes, and while it is frustrating it's not particularly notable. But single out a paying customer in preference to your personnel and that customer ends up pitching a fit, now you've got the whole country looking at you like you kicked a puppy.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:05

Post #36 of 64 Views: 2072

And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

How do you figure? I figure most people know all about the possibility of getting bumped. It's still bullshit fine print, because it's not like a customer can do anything about it.

You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking.

Yeah? How much lower? And I mean, are you sure? Because the price I pay for a given seat changes, literally, hour by hour. Quantify the discount I get by allowing the airlines to routinely sell and profit by selling more product than they have.

But basically what you're saying is that the airlines have, say, 300 seats, and if they sell those 300 seats to 320 customers, they can sell them a little cheaper, and hope that 20 people don't show up, right? Problem is when all 320 paying customers show up, of course.

And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.

Eh. I'm curious to see if these are four pilots or four flight attendants. They are not equally indispensable to air travel. And like I said, what happens if one of them has the flu? Not the airlines problem, I suppose?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:37

Post #37 of 64 Views: 2026

AlanShearer wrote:

As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

Small note, from what I read, they took the $800 to get off the plane, so it was voluntary.

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:43

Post #38 of 64 Views: 2015

vitus979 wrote:

And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

How do you figure? I figure most people know all about the possibility of getting bumped. It's still bullshit fine print, because it's not like a customer can do anything about it.

You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking.

Yeah? How much lower? And I mean, are you sure? Because the price I pay for a given seat changes, literally, hour by hour. Quantify the discount I get by allowing the airlines to routinely sell and profit by selling more product than they have.

But basically what you're saying is that the airlines have, say, 300 seats, and if they sell those 300 seats to 320 customers, they can sell them a little cheaper, and hope that 20 people don't show up, right? Problem is when all 320 paying customers show up, of course.

And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.

Eh. I'm curious to see if these are four pilots or four flight attendants. They are not equally indispensable to air travel. And like I said, what happens if one of them has the flu? Not the airlines problem, I suppose?

How do I figure? The exact same way you did. Seems like we're in agreement on this point, that most people know about the possibility. If people know, then whether it's in the fine print or in bold is largely irrelevant.

Yes, it's hard to quantify. That doesn't mean it isn't there. Air fares are highly competitive, but that doesn't mean that airlines are purely price takers with no say in the price. They get to lower fares and compete by, among other things, overbooking. But to the extent it can't be quantified, then a simple solution is for airlines to offer passengers the ability to lock in their seat by paying a small premium.

And flight attendants and pilots can be equally indispensable to travel, as there are minimum requirements for the number of flight attendants that have to be on a flight.

Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:

For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers—one flight attendant.
For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers—one flight attendant.
For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers—two flight attendants.
For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers—two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:44

Post #39 of 64 Views: 2012

Quote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

True. Although the parallels to my hostage situation reference apply here as well. Once word spreads the passengers can name their price, the game changes.

United sent the message that you don't negate with terrorists. Never mind if they're otherwise law abiding paying customers...

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:51

Post #40 of 64 Views: 2002

Game theory.

Airline knows that if they boot someone from a flight, then there's a set amount that they have to pay to compensate. I think that amount can be up to just over $1300 (plus hotel?), but that's only if the next flight is the next day. It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

So there's no reason for an airline to ever offer the highest amount in order to get someone to voluntarily give up a seat. And someone willing to give up his or her seat has an incentive to wait until the amount is high, but they should also know not to wait too long, or else they'll lose out on the opportunity.

It's also my understanding that around 90% of the passengers bumped last year did so voluntarily.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 13:54

Post #41 of 64 Views: 1994

So there's no reason for an airline to ever offer the highest amount in order to get someone to voluntarily give up a seat.

How do you figure? You know, from a game theory point of view?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:05

Post #42 of 64 Views: 1985

vitus979 wrote:

I would REALLY love to see a story about a university who threw a student off campus after he paid tuition because it's overbooked.

I mean, I would LOVE to read that story.

I've never heard of that. What they do do is admit more freshman than there are dorm rooms. But they don't turn people away, they just load up the dorms with extra kids, or use common rooms as dorms, or put them up in apartments off campus. I think usually attrition takes care of the overload and most kids end up in a dorm room eventually.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:12

Post #43 of 64 Views: 1980

bq2001 wrote:

AlanShearer wrote:

As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

Small note, from what I read, they took the $800 to get off the plane, so it was voluntary.

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

reportedly, a woman on the plane said she would give up her seat for $1300 and united laughed at her. then knocked the dr out and dragged him doen the asile. he somehow ran back on the plane dripping blood ao they cleared the plane to clean it.

this will cost them many orders of magnitude more than the $1300 they could have easily paid out.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:19

Post #44 of 64 Views: 1969

this will cost them many orders of magnitude more than the $1300 they could have easily paid out.

But . . . game theory!

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:21

Post #45 of 64 Views: 1968

Quote:

It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

last fall united gave me $800 to take another flight that was leaving in 45 minutes. it gabe me a bit longer trip but well worth it to me since i was alone.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:24

Post #46 of 64 Views: 1967

vitus979 wrote:

It seems like they were in full compliance with their contractual obligations, from what I've read.

Eh. Like I said, bullshit fine print. You pay for a ticket, you expect to fly.

Their staffing incompetency isn't the passenger's problem. I find it hard to believe there was no other solution other than flying those four staffers instead of four paying customers. And yeah, they definitely should have offered more money if they didn't get any takers.

Guy acted like a childish brat, but United is to blame for the situation, start to finish. Overbook a flight, unable to come up with an alternative staffing solution, refuse to offer enough to motivate someone to give up their seat . . . Lose, lose, lose.

Slowguy would disagree .... prior actions have no bearing on future actions

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:25

Post #47 of 64 Views: 1962

sphere wrote:

It's a bad look, for sure. So what is an airline supposed to do in these instances? Presuming the overbooking is necessary to maintain reasonable rates, or whatever, and that all airline personnel on board were essential: If they're over capacity, they can't fly. Someone has to go. The airline reserves the right to cancel a reservation and remove passengers in order to comply with federal regulations. Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences? Do they allow a person who is no longer a passenger to effectively hold the plane hostage? I'm not saying the airline did everything possible to avoid this outcome--they manifestly did not--but at the end of the list of possible resolutions exists the option, or necessity, of forcibly removing a person from the aircraft. It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

The airline deserves the bad press for the way they handled it, skipping from resolution option C or D, directly to option Z. And the doctor ought to be embarrassed for how he behaved in response.

Keep offering money until someone bites i.e. basic economic theory.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:26

Post #48 of 64 Views: 1958

I'm totally with Vitus on this one. First of all who knows if the guy is a doctor. Did he have his official doctor card? Second of all its Chicago to Louisville not across the freaking Pacific. Its 300 miles give the somebody 600 and a rental car and they will drive happily. Thats 100/hr. Surely there were four people on the plane who would have given up seats for reasonable compensation. And the police angle kills me too. Do the police just do whatever the airline asks? Hey we need you to forcibly remove people from our plane because we overbooked. Officer : "Not my problem" would have been a rationale response. And the other BS thing the airline will try sometimes, giving you a voucher. Like I want to book another flight after you treat me badly. I want cash.

vitus979 wrote:

Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

and that all airline personnel on board were essential:

Essential and irreplaceable? I have a hard time buying that. If they are, United should build a good bit more redundancy into their staffing. What if one of them was sick? The nation's air travel system would crash?

Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences?

I'd be more willing to engage that question if United had even taken all the options available to resolve the situation- but it didn't, it was only willing to offer about 60% of the money it's allowed to offer to bump a passenger. And if it had gotten to the max (which, again, probably shouldn't be legally limited in the first place), it should have gotten creative with the incentives. Instead, they nickel and dimed the process, and then called in some goons.

It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

Well, yeah, but I don't particularly care about some doctor who throws a tantrum. I care about how the airlines treat their passengers, because I am a frequent passenger. Doctor acted like a child, but it did expose United's attitude towards its customers.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:33

Post #49 of 64 Views: 1947

I disagree. I probably would have jumped at $400 and the next flight out or a rental car. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I always hope to get bumped but rarely get the chance to take an offer.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 14:35

Post #50 of 64 Views: 1943

Quote:

Slowguy would disagree .... prior actions have no bearing on future actions

thats sort of sometimes correct.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 15:15

Post #51 of 64 Views: 1880

bq2001 wrote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

Exactly. 800 bucks is nothing to most doctors.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 15:18

Post #52 of 64 Views: 1877

veganerd wrote:

Quote:

It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

last fall united gave me $800 to take another flight that was leaving in 45 minutes. it gabe me a bit longer trip but well worth it to me since i was alone.

That would probably cover your entrance fee to an Ironman race. Did you use your windfall wisely and sign up for a race?

Re: Worst Job Ever? [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 15:33

Post #53 of 64 Views: 1870

rick_pcfl wrote:

veganerd wrote:

Quote:

It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

last fall united gave me $800 to take another flight that was leaving in 45 minutes. it gabe me a bit longer trip but well worth it to me since i was alone.

That would probably cover your entrance fee to an Ironman race. Did you use your windfall wisely and sign up for a race?

i used it wisely and took the ms to mexico in february and sat half naked on a beach while servers brought us drinks. spending a week on an island was far cheaper than doing another IM race!

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 16:07

Post #54 of 64 Views: 1854

bq2001 wrote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone has a price. Eventually someone is going to feel the deal is worth delaying their trip.

Matt

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 16:29

Post #55 of 64 Views: 1842

Pun_Times wrote:

bq2001 wrote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone has a price. Eventually someone is going to feel the deal is worth delaying their trip.

i saw on the news yesterday that a family got $11,000 from delta for agreeing to completely give up their flights.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 16:37

Post #56 of 64 Views: 1836

How long does it take to swim from SFO to KOA? Is it okay to short cut and just swim to ITO? It would save about 100 miles

Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 16:38

Post #57 of 64 Views: 1835

Body odor issues?

veganerd wrote:

Pun_Times wrote:

bq2001 wrote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone has a price. Eventually someone is going to feel the deal is worth delaying their trip.

i saw on the news yesterday that a family got $11,000 from delta for agreeing to completely give up their flights.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Worst Job Ever? [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 17:03

Post #58 of 64 Views: 1821

racin_rusty wrote:

How long does it take to swim from SFO to KOA? Is it okay to short cut and just swim to ITO? It would save about 100 miles

just gotta catch an el nino current....

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [len] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 17:07

Post #59 of 64 Views: 1819

len wrote:

Body odor issues?

veganerd wrote:

Pun_Times wrote:

bq2001 wrote:

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone has a price. Eventually someone is going to feel the deal is worth delaying their trip.

i saw on the news yesterday that a family got $11,000 from delta for agreeing to completely give up their flights.

i only saw a snippet of the story but heres the deal. it makes more sense than what i had understood.

https://www.google.com/...ALlioKJnlDqgFAgg_1:0

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 17:11

Post #60 of 64 Views: 1814

I always thought it was the poor bastard who got "bun gun" duty in hog processing plants.

"The carcass continues to go down the line where the bun gun operator drops the bun and basically what that is it looks like a big grease gun. It’s about three inches in diameter. Basically what it does is it just cuts a circle around the rectum where it drops the rectal cavity down into the carcass without breaking it."

https://www.hrw.org/.../2005/usa0105/10.htm

Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 17:28

Post #61 of 64 Views: 1805

We once couldn't take off from costa rica because a mechanical issue. They sent us to an all inclusive for a day. Next day the plane was late taking off for Miami because everything was backed up due to big snowstorm in the Northeast. The Costa Rican gate agents were having alot of trouble booking connections finally they just gave up I think. We got to Miami at 11pm or so. We get there and I was told likely two days before I can get out of Florida and no hotel rooms in Miami so I went downstairs and rented a Minivan. Drove about 6-7 hours north beforevacant hotel rooms close to the interstate by which point wife and kids had all slept well in the van so no point in stopping. Made it to Lexington Kentucky before I had to quit. Next day drove remainder of trip to detroit. Travel is an adventure.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Worst Job Ever? [len] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 17:46

Post #62 of 64 Views: 1796

len wrote:

We once couldn't take off from costa rica because a mechanical issue. They sent us to an all inclusive for a day. Next day the plane was late taking off for Miami because everything was backed up due to big snowstorm in the Northeast. The Costa Rican gate agents were having alot of trouble booking connections finally they just gave up I think. We got to Miami at 11pm or so. We get there and I was told likely two days before I can get out of Florida and no hotel rooms in Miami so I went downstairs and rented a Minivan. Drove about 6-7 hours north beforevacant hotel rooms close to the interstate by which point wife and kids had all slept well in the van so no point in stopping. Made it to Lexington Kentucky before I had to quit. Next day drove remainder of trip to detroit. Travel is an adventure.

yes it is! it helps to go with the flow. in February when we went to isla mujeres, we got rerouted to mexico city which was interesting. it was a beautiful city to get sent to, but we only spent 9 hours there.

its a massive city!

who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]

Apr 10, 17 19:25

Post #63 of 64 Views: 1768

vitus979 wrote:

I would REALLY love to see a story about a university who threw a student off campus after he paid tuition because it's overbooked.

I mean, I would LOVE to read that story.

And while WTC is the devil's own company, has any triathlete ever been turned removed from the swim start after paying their money and setting up their transition areas because the race is too crowded?

I'm sure hotels overbook routinely, as do airlines. Personally, I've never been turned away at a hotel I've reserved because they're overbooked, and I've never seen anyone else with a reservation turned away, either.

I was in Hyatt hotel in Budapest years ago. made a booking and when I got there they said they were full. But with a bit of a good will from both sides, they found me a spare room, much, much smaller then the booked one and charged accordingly. Great service.

Re: Worst Job Ever? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 17 5:52

Post #64 of 64 Views: 1691

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

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