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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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AndysStrongAle wrote:
As with bumping the staff, chances are strong union contracts playing into this. If the staff is a pilot, he is probably has to fly a minimum of x amount of hours or they pay him for doing nothing. He has to be home after so many flights or United has to pay him extra. I'm not completely sure how the pilot contracts work but they are paid by hours in the air not a flat salary.

Quite possibly true. What is absolutely true is that I don't care - staffing and union headaches are United's responsibility, they shouldn't shaft a customer because they are having trouble managing their personnel schedule.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.


Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.



Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.

But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I would REALLY love to see a story about a university who threw a student off campus after he paid tuition because it's overbooked.

I mean, I would LOVE to read that story.

And while WTC is the devil's own company, has any triathlete ever been turned removed from the swim start after paying their money and setting up their transition areas because the race is too crowded?

I'm sure hotels overbook routinely, as do airlines. Personally, I've never been turned away at a hotel I've reserved because they're overbooked, and I've never seen anyone else with a reservation turned away, either.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [wimsey] [ In reply to ]
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wimsey wrote:
klehner wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.



Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.



But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).


Except that sometimes you do pay hotels in advance. An airline will refund if you don't want another flight. They often refund if you miss your flight.
Last edited by: AlanShearer: Apr 10, 17 12:45
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot.

I think the cost of a ticket, pretty much by definition, ought to guarantee my spot on the plane.


And the doctor was being an ass.

Yes, but I don't care about some random doctor who acted like an ass. Maybe if he was my doctor, I'd care. But he's not, so I don't.

And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

It's not. But why is getting a stewardess to her job on time more important than fulfilling your obligation to a paying customer?









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
wimsey wrote:
klehner wrote:
vitus979 wrote:
Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.



Restaurants, hotels, and the WTC all do this. Wouldn't be surprised that universities do, too.



But you don't pay the restaurant or hotel in advance for the service and then get told you have to get the service later (or if you do pay in advance, you generally get a refund on the spot).


Except that sometimes you do pay hotels in advance. An airline will refund if you don't want another flight. They often refund if you miss your flight.

If I pay for a hotel in advance (which is rare, usually they're just holding my credit card info in case I'm a no-show) and it's overbooked (which has never happened to me), then they either refund me on the spot or find me another place and cover any additional cost.

When I've paid for a plane ticket in advance (always) and it's overbooked (has happened several times), my experience has been they say I either (1) have to wait for the next flight they choose to put me on; or (2) find another flight with another airline, but I have to pay the cost of that and then get a voucher for the flight I couldn't take because they overbooked it. I've only been bumped involuntarily a few times, but refund has never been part of the conversation - maybe I just didn't push hard enough for refund (and one time it was not that big a deal for me to wait for the next flight, so I didn't make an issue of it).
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot.

I think the cost of a ticket, pretty much by definition, ought to guarantee my spot on the plane.


And the doctor was being an ass.

Yes, but I don't care about some random doctor who acted like an ass. Maybe if he was my doctor, I'd care. But he's not, so I don't.

And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

It's not. But why is getting a stewardess to her job on time more important than fulfilling your obligation to a paying customer?

Except you know that it doesn't guarantee your spot. And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking. Seems like you want to have it both ways -- you want a relatively low fare and you want to avoid the miniscule risk of being bumped. I read that something between 0.1% and 0.2% of all passengers get bumped, and the vast majority of those are voluntary. So when we're talking about involuntary bumpings, it's a nearly insignificant number.

And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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<<And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.>>

I think that's the crux of the issue. There's an 'efficient breach' kind of deal going on here where the airline is making the call that incoveniencing many in an aggregated, non-specific way is worse for business than specifically inconveniencing one person who feels unfairly singled out. In this particular case, I think it's backfiring on them - everyone is resigned to the fact that flights are delayed sometimes, and while it is frustrating it's not particularly notable. But single out a paying customer in preference to your personnel and that customer ends up pitching a fit, now you've got the whole country looking at you like you kicked a puppy.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

How do you figure? I figure most people know all about the possibility of getting bumped. It's still bullshit fine print, because it's not like a customer can do anything about it.


You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking.

Yeah? How much lower? And I mean, are you sure? Because the price I pay for a given seat changes, literally, hour by hour. Quantify the discount I get by allowing the airlines to routinely sell and profit by selling more product than they have.

But basically what you're saying is that the airlines have, say, 300 seats, and if they sell those 300 seats to 320 customers, they can sell them a little cheaper, and hope that 20 people don't show up, right? Problem is when all 320 paying customers show up, of course.


And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.


Eh. I'm curious to see if these are four pilots or four flight attendants. They are not equally indispensable to air travel. And like I said, what happens if one of them has the flu? Not the airlines problem, I suppose?









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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AlanShearer wrote:
As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

Small note, from what I read, they took the $800 to get off the plane, so it was voluntary.

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
And your prior comment about the fine print is largely irrelevant at least for a good number of passenger, who all know about overbooking and the slight possibility.

How do you figure? I figure most people know all about the possibility of getting bumped. It's still bullshit fine print, because it's not like a customer can do anything about it.


You currently pay a lower fare because of overbooking.

Yeah? How much lower? And I mean, are you sure? Because the price I pay for a given seat changes, literally, hour by hour. Quantify the discount I get by allowing the airlines to routinely sell and profit by selling more product than they have.

But basically what you're saying is that the airlines have, say, 300 seats, and if they sell those 300 seats to 320 customers, they can sell them a little cheaper, and hope that 20 people don't show up, right? Problem is when all 320 paying customers show up, of course.


And when that flight attendant or pilot cannot get to his or her job on time, you're going to have more than a single paying customer inconvenienced.


Eh. I'm curious to see if these are four pilots or four flight attendants. They are not equally indispensable to air travel. And like I said, what happens if one of them has the flu? Not the airlines problem, I suppose?

How do I figure? The exact same way you did. Seems like we're in agreement on this point, that most people know about the possibility. If people know, then whether it's in the fine print or in bold is largely irrelevant.

Yes, it's hard to quantify. That doesn't mean it isn't there. Air fares are highly competitive, but that doesn't mean that airlines are purely price takers with no say in the price. They get to lower fares and compete by, among other things, overbooking. But to the extent it can't be quantified, then a simple solution is for airlines to offer passengers the ability to lock in their seat by paying a small premium.

And flight attendants and pilots can be equally indispensable to travel, as there are minimum requirements for the number of flight attendants that have to be on a flight.

Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:
  1. For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers—one flight attendant.
  2. For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers—one flight attendant.
  3. For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers—two flight attendants.
  4. For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers—two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.

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Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]
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Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.

True. Although the parallels to my hostage situation reference apply here as well. Once word spreads the passengers can name their price, the game changes.

United sent the message that you don't negate with terrorists. Never mind if they're otherwise law abiding paying customers...

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Game theory.

Airline knows that if they boot someone from a flight, then there's a set amount that they have to pay to compensate. I think that amount can be up to just over $1300 (plus hotel?), but that's only if the next flight is the next day. It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

So there's no reason for an airline to ever offer the highest amount in order to get someone to voluntarily give up a seat. And someone willing to give up his or her seat has an incentive to wait until the amount is high, but they should also know not to wait too long, or else they'll lose out on the opportunity.

It's also my understanding that around 90% of the passengers bumped last year did so voluntarily.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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So there's no reason for an airline to ever offer the highest amount in order to get someone to voluntarily give up a seat.

How do you figure? You know, from a game theory point of view?











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
I would REALLY love to see a story about a university who threw a student off campus after he paid tuition because it's overbooked.

I mean, I would LOVE to read that story.

I've never heard of that. What they do do is admit more freshman than there are dorm rooms. But they don't turn people away, they just load up the dorms with extra kids, or use common rooms as dorms, or put them up in apartments off campus. I think usually attrition takes care of the overload and most kids end up in a dorm room eventually.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [bq2001] [ In reply to ]
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bq2001 wrote:
AlanShearer wrote:
As a frequent passenger, how much more per trip are you willing to pay so that an airlines will never overbook and build in the requisite redundancy in their staffing?

I'm not saying that United didn't fuck up here. And I believe there are some reasonable solutions, such as allowing passengers to pay a premium to guarantee their spot. And if they were overbooked, they should have prevented a few passengers from boarding the plane until the issue was resolved -- no need to people off once they've boarded. But I don't believe prohibiting overbooking is a reasonable solution.

And the doctor was being an ass. Three other people were involuntarily asked to leave the plane, and they somehow avoided throwing a scene. And why is him being a doctor with patients to see any more significant that most everyone else on the plane with a need to get to their destination?

Small note, from what I read, they took the $800 to get off the plane, so it was voluntary.

Keep upping that kickback and someone will eventually take it.


reportedly, a woman on the plane said she would give up her seat for $1300 and united laughed at her. then knocked the dr out and dragged him doen the asile. he somehow ran back on the plane dripping blood ao they cleared the plane to clean it.

this will cost them many orders of magnitude more than the $1300 they could have easily paid out.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [veganerd] [ In reply to ]
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this will cost them many orders of magnitude more than the $1300 they could have easily paid out.

But . . . game theory!









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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It's something like just over $600 if the replacement flight is that day.

last fall united gave me $800 to take another flight that was leaving in 45 minutes. it gabe me a bit longer trip but well worth it to me since i was alone.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
It seems like they were in full compliance with their contractual obligations, from what I've read.

Eh. Like I said, bullshit fine print. You pay for a ticket, you expect to fly.

Their staffing incompetency isn't the passenger's problem. I find it hard to believe there was no other solution other than flying those four staffers instead of four paying customers. And yeah, they definitely should have offered more money if they didn't get any takers.

Guy acted like a childish brat, but United is to blame for the situation, start to finish. Overbook a flight, unable to come up with an alternative staffing solution, refuse to offer enough to motivate someone to give up their seat . . . Lose, lose, lose.

Slowguy would disagree .... prior actions have no bearing on future actions
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
It's a bad look, for sure. So what is an airline supposed to do in these instances? Presuming the overbooking is necessary to maintain reasonable rates, or whatever, and that all airline personnel on board were essential: If they're over capacity, they can't fly. Someone has to go. The airline reserves the right to cancel a reservation and remove passengers in order to comply with federal regulations. Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences? Do they allow a person who is no longer a passenger to effectively hold the plane hostage? I'm not saying the airline did everything possible to avoid this outcome--they manifestly did not--but at the end of the list of possible resolutions exists the option, or necessity, of forcibly removing a person from the aircraft. It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

The airline deserves the bad press for the way they handled it, skipping from resolution option C or D, directly to option Z. And the doctor ought to be embarrassed for how he behaved in response.

Keep offering money until someone bites i.e. basic economic theory.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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I'm totally with Vitus on this one. First of all who knows if the guy is a doctor. Did he have his official doctor card? Second of all its Chicago to Louisville not across the freaking Pacific. Its 300 miles give the somebody 600 and a rental car and they will drive happily. Thats 100/hr. Surely there were four people on the plane who would have given up seats for reasonable compensation. And the police angle kills me too. Do the police just do whatever the airline asks? Hey we need you to forcibly remove people from our plane because we overbooked. Officer : "Not my problem" would have been a rationale response. And the other BS thing the airline will try sometimes, giving you a voucher. Like I want to book another flight after you treat me badly. I want cash.
vitus979 wrote:
Presuming the overbooking is necessary

You already lost me.

I know that's the airline's rationale, but it really is bullshit. They're literally selling more product than they intend to or are capable of providing. It should be illegal. I'm pretty sure it would be for just about any other business.

and that all airline personnel on board were essential:

Essential and irreplaceable? I have a hard time buying that. If they are, United should build a good bit more redundancy into their staffing. What if one of them was sick? The nation's air travel system would crash?

Do they sit on the tarmac indefinitely, and make everyone who wasn't randomly selected suffer the consequences?

I'd be more willing to engage that question if United had even taken all the options available to resolve the situation- but it didn't, it was only willing to offer about 60% of the money it's allowed to offer to bump a passenger. And if it had gotten to the max (which, again, probably shouldn't be legally limited in the first place), it should have gotten creative with the incentives. Instead, they nickel and dimed the process, and then called in some goons.


It only became an outrage because he squealed and flopped around like a drama queen.

Well, yeah, but I don't particularly care about some doctor who throws a tantrum. I care about how the airlines treat their passengers, because I am a frequent passenger. Doctor acted like a child, but it did expose United's attitude towards its customers.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Worst Job Ever? [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree. I probably would have jumped at $400 and the next flight out or a rental car. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

I always hope to get bumped but rarely get the chance to take an offer.
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Re: Worst Job Ever? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Slowguy would disagree .... prior actions have no bearing on future actions

thats sort of sometimes correct.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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