I'm just going out to Costco for some popcorn....

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Don't bother. Nobody wants to touch this one for some reason.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

This is too bad. I wonder, had Sara Gross lived in the early 1900s in the United States, if she would have been against women's suffrage. I suspect she would have.

It's a worthless debate that's been hashed out before on ST.

Perhaps Sara's bio (from her website) might provide people with some insight as to her motivations:

Born:
March 26th 1976 in Sarnia Ontario Canada

Grew Up:
Kitchener, Ontario and Dubai, United Arab Emirates

Education:
Dollar Academy, Scotland (Highschool) Queens University, Canada (BA and MA) The University of Edinburgh (PhD) In June 2006, Sara graduated from Edinburgh University with a PhD in Ancient History and Religion. Sara's dissertation was in the field of women's history. She analyzed the methodology of women's history, specifically in relation to women in the first two centuries. Sara is passionate about the need to make sure that women figure as often and as highly as men on the pages of our history textbooks.

Sporting History:
Growing up in Canada Sara played a number of team sports, her favorite being soccer (or football for the British crowd). At one stage she even played on 3 teams at once, practicing every morning and evening with matches up to five times a week. After moving to the Middle East with her family in 1991, Sara took up individual sports including running and swimming. Sara swam competitively in University but claims she was never very fast. She was also a recreational runner for 10 years before taking up triathlon. After spectating at the K-town Tri in Kingston Ontario in 1999, Sara bought a bike and started training for her first triathlon.

I like Sara. While I might not agree with everything she says or writes, I see what she's trying to do and can applaud her for that.

However, like you said, I fall into the mental gymnastics on this one. This seems to go completely against character. Like John Rocker signing up with the Mets.

*edit* Bio does make some sense into this... still awkward in my book.

Are you trying to say that some of our debates on here are worthwhile?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Here's her take. Makes me wonder what she thinks of OJ Simpson.


http://www.witsup.com/...e-13-team-heres-why/

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My bad. They are all worthless. Continue. :-)

Or bill Cosby. ......

I'm assuming this statement is in reference to Macca? I wasn't thinking about that. Just that generally speaking, women rights aren't a priority in the Middle East - which kinda goes against what Sara is preaching.

That article is awesome. I don't even know where to start with the moral relativism but this really tickled me:

"In the end I can’t avoid what I know is right because individuals might not understand what I’m trying to do."

Paraphrasing - if you don't understand my reasons you'require idiots. Sub-text "they offered me a deal I couldn't say no to"

To parephrase Clive Stafford Smith "I explained to them the meaning of equality and they explained to me the power of cash"

LOL. Let's not mention that the "justice system" in Bahrain is controlled by "His Highness's" family... I'm sure it can be counted on to fairly and blindly pursue justice when the alleged criminal is a member of the royal family. To put so much passion into the 50Q and characterizing it as a terrible injustice to women, but to so easily dismiss the issues of women's rights in Bahrain when they want to give you a paycheck requires some really deep sand to bury your head in. Or just outright hypocrisy.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Gah. I was really trying to buy into her argument. I was ready to be convinced by a change-from-within vs. isolate-and-shame approach. She's been well-spoken in the past. But I cringe at "leave justice to the justice system." Many of the highest-ranking members of the Bahraini justice system are members of the royal family, with predictable results in matters related to the royal family. The state fundamentally lacks the concept of an independent judiciary. And that's ignoring the whole Sharia side of the courts, which is a whole other popcorn issue.

Well said, pretty much sums up my thoughts. Not that she'd care, but I lost a lot of respect for Sara here.

My opinion is this article has a very weird vibe. In the end I feel like it's a press release posing as an article trying to make some sort of conflict/stand/news angle on what really is just a sound bite or a tweet.

What if you're pro Bahrain 13 and anti TriEqual?

I was pretty sold by her argument that there are lots of really bad thing that have happened in history and lots that are happening right now, really it is the West's fault, and she can not solve it, so lets just ignore it and talk about triathlon.

Were you sold by her argument that the court has not found HRH guilty so we should just ignore it?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

The other thing that I'm not sure has been explicitly pointed out is related to this quote:


"My contract is a little different to the other athletes’ in that it has a longer list of media requirements. I still get to race as part of the team but there is less emphasis on performance. Instead, I will focus some of my energy on writing and other media work "


It seem logical that they want to improve their reputation when it comes to human rights (heck that is the whole reason they named the team Bahrain 13 in the first place) so they say, "Hey! if we can get the president of TriEqual to join the team and get her to talk a lot about the great work we are doing for women in Bahrain all the haters will have a hard time arguing against her!"

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Lost all respect for Gross. Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic here but it seems she threw away her values when it comes the TriEqual stuff in order to make a buck to fund her career.

That's great and all but the hypocrisy is stunning. She's going to really regret this decision when all is said and done.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I doubt it.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

This just in:

Sue Aqilla

As a co-founder of TriEqual I resigned on 1/12/16. I believe equality is a human rights issue. You can't advocate for one without the other.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

wow... where is that from? link?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Do you still standby your comment she won't regret that decision?

Unless there's something we don't know, it appears what Gross did was about 10 kinds of stupid.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Some of the guys on this thread can beat up on Sara, but given her academic background, her years of living in the Middle East and the scope of her contract with Bahrain13, it seems like a good match. If she can enhance opportunity and access to sport for women in the Middle East, she will have done far more via this channel than any push for equal women pro slots for pro women in Kona. The latter is largely symbolic in terms of enhancing access to sport for girls and women. If she can do things on the ground to enable Middle Eastern women to do sport, that's actually fairly huge.

I'll reserve the judgement until I see the body of work that she's able to create from this platform, which I suspect will be substantial. Easy for a bunch of western middle age guys on an internet forum to throw her under the bus for signing up "with the bad guys". Let's be patient and see what she is able to achieve. I believe these are her motivations via this opportunity based on the brief dialogue I read.

Slowman, this would also be a worthy topic for a front page article if you have the time to pull that together!

She tweeted it.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

If she were to really to be going for the change-from-the-inside her first comment on the controversy would not be "allegations are allegations" and that the "justice system" has not found him guilty. That is just towing the party line.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Look, I actually don't care that a tyrant in one country did vs a tyrant in another country (we have had our share in the west so it is an endless rat hole)....that's not up for me to solve. Seriously what do you expect Sara to answer when one of the first questions paints her into a corner vs focusing on the good and change she can enable through this role.

She's made the leap to join this team, so it really is pointless asking her to throw the team and head of it under the bus. Ask her what she is going to do in the role, that is feasible. Incarcerating the Prince physically or intellectually is not on the options list so of course she is going to give the answer she gave.

Come on guys...we can do better.

Dev

but see! In your last post you said to think about how much good she could do from a position on the Bahrain 13 Team. But really, if her purpose in joining the team was to continue the fight for women's rights on an even more important stage than the pier at Kona, she would have put a lot of thought in to that question. She would have a strategy. If she thought a process needed to be followed before she could issue a full acknowledgement of the problems in Bahrain and the leader of the team, she could at least say she was not yet prepared to talk about the subject. Or she could psuedo change the subject and say that one of the things she is really looking forward to doing in her new position is helping women... but to say what she said would be the last way one would answer.

Eventually, if an athlete is going to try to join the Bahrain 13 team in order to improve women's rights there, or human rights in general, one must publicly acknowledge that a problem exists. She has no power to work back-channels and help people that way, while appearing to tow the line in public. I just don't see it. Starting out by not only denying a problem exists but spewing the same propoganda as the royalty... I cannot find any other explanation but hypocrisy or very very very serious confirmation bias in her view of the situation.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I am still going to cut her some slack. I agree her answer was not well strategist, but she's a history major who has been doing pro triathlon. She's not a media/marketing/pr major and she hasn't been working the lobby network in London/Washington/Ottawa, so rather than beat her up for joining the team, how about we focus on what she can achieve from this springboard....and the reality is that pro triathletes get paid nothing...it's easy for us who make good $$$ in professional capacities outside of the athletic domain to judge pro athletes who live in a slightly more sheltered world (that is ridiculously poorly paid) vs the corporate/political meat grinder that many age groupers might live through daily.

Finally, she's 39, not 29....this seems like a good transition to another career related to sport, but not where you have to win races.

The co founder of TriEqual disagrees with you.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I'd be sold by that argument for almost any other triathlete. Ryf, Macca, etc. I get it. But Sara has established a brand for herself based on a premise of not ignoring certain things. As I said, I think her joining "The 13" could be reconciled with that brand if she'd carefully articulated her rationale. But the way she articulated it seems haphazard, just hand-waving away issues you'd think she'd take seriously given her brand. She had to know those questions were going to be asked, and she didn't prepare to answer them in a way that respected the reader's intelligence. That doesn't leave a good impression.

FWIW here is Sara's position - it's on her blog http://saragross.blogspot.com/...-to-middle-east.html

Since the announcement of the Bahrain 13 team last year, I have been disappointed by the tone of the conversation in the triathlon community. What I see as an opportunity for our sport to create a positive cross cultural dialogue has descended into a singular narrative about a particular element of Bahraini politics. And while human rights abuses must be deplored, to focus solely on that is to focus on one tile in a mosaic. I will not abide by a narrative that myopically focuses on who did what during the Arab Spring uprising while ignoring all the other factors at play. Too many in the West hear Islam, Muslim, Middle East and immediately their minds are set. The world is not black and white but an infinite scale of grey.

There has been much talk about the fact that there are only three (now four) women on the team. I won't mince my words here, I think an effort should be made to support more women. Of course I do. I'm sure the powers-that-be already know my opinion on this matter.

When I got the call to be a part of the Bahrain team, you could have knocked me over with a feather but the more I talked to members of the group the more it became clear they were looking for more than just an athlete to wear their kit. They want me to help expand the dialogue in the Middle East about sport, obesity and the diabetes problem that has taken hold in the Gulf - about the local Bahraini triathletes and - about women in sport in the Middle East. These are all things that I want to talk about

Media/marketing/PR is precisely her role with TriEqual. She's been probably their primary spokesman to the media, including to this site both in the forums and the main page.

I understand her position. " I don't want to talk about the horrible person that's paying my salary".

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Advocacy and being on the attack is entirely different from answering media and being on defence and marketing a promoting a story from a position of weakness (that being the alliance with the Prince's team which in western eyes will inherently be seen as a "sellout"....but she's going to be focused on women in the Middle East through this role, something most people here won't care about. They will care more about women pros in Kona.

I agree her first set of answers were not ideal, I will still give her a bye and stay focused on what work she is able to generate out of all this for access to women in sport in that part of the world (a part of the world where she has lived and even done sport)

Dev,

Name one person who is asking her to throw the team under the bus now that she has joined. That's not what people are asking and if you think that you are really out of touch. People are questioning why she joined the team in the first place.

I get it, you like Sara and won't say anything bad. At least be honest and say that rather than the drivel you spouted.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Actually it's not that I like Sara, Daniela, Frodo, or Macca or don't like them (generally a fan of all). All of these athletes made their decision to join that team. Rather than waste time asking them about the human rights record of the Bahrainis (and by the way, last time I checked Messick and Felix have been aligned with them at some phase of "race deployment" in the last 2 years), I just prefer to ask all of them (the athletes, WTC, Challenge etc etc) how we will use the alignment with the Bahrainis to better sporting opportunities for the people of the Middle East and perhaps understand one another better. When we get to the start line with our wetsuits, compression gear, aero geek-tech, it does not matter if the guy on the start line next to me is from Abu Dhabi, Murmansk, Tel Aviv, Tehran, Shanghai, Austin, London or Hamburg...we're all the same at that point, which is part of the beauty of sport. It sheds some of the animosity that our cultures instill into us against one another.

I had the privilege of racing via Armed Forces competition in several international meets at a young age and it opened my eyes towards how we can impact others and their way of thinking through sport. One person alone can't change the tyrant leading the US Republican race, or the other villains (from western eyes, maybe not how they are viewed in the eyes of their own nationals) running Bahrain or Russia or China or Iran (our newest friend...). But we can change how the world works from the ground up through sporting ties. I know a lot of you guys won't really get it so I am wasting time trying to sway the minds of bunch of guys on the internet programmed for anti Middle East bias (don't get me wrong, I have my own anti muslim bias which comes from a family uprooted of every worldly possession and forced to flee their homeland because we were not Muslim which was just in my dad's generation....but I prefer to extract myself from that 70 year old time warp and try to be enlightened which can be hard to do when your parents constantly slip the built in negative bias without knowing it at a conversational level)

Dev

Exactly.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

You are still missing the point. Nobody is saying that she (or any of the Bahrain 13) should campaign against HRH. They are saying maybe, just maybe don't get into bed with him. If you accept his money you are essentially turning a blind eye to what was done.

Or as Sara puts it: "Hey the unfair Bahraini judicial system says that he didn't torture those people so who am I to judge?"

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I do not think it is fair to cast people who are criticizing Sara Gross for this as internet Muslim-haters. I think a lot of very rational, specific points are being made that has nothing to do with blanket condemnation of Muslims.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

No I get the point. What I am saying is that once ANY of these pros or WTC or Challenge align with the Bahraini's you're wasting time asking them why they are in bed with them (they are, the deal is done). Maybe focus on how they will use the alignment with the Bahrainis to make the tri and sporting world better.

Why do we live in a country like Canada that interned Canadian Japanese during a war with Japan? That's pretty atrocious behavior by any govt to their own people, yet we live here, so implicitly condone the transgressions already done. I don't know why they were done and I can't change them. All I can do is interact in a civil way with both Japanese Canadians or those from Japan, rather than waste time trying to fix the past. We treat many native Canadians like shit from a govt policy perspective so should I just move from Canada because we're such dickheads to our native populations today? Or if I care enough, I can do something about it. Well it turns out I live here and I do nothing about it, so that's pretty bad. Guess who did all the risky life threatening dirty work on the way to laying the last spike on our transcontinental railroad...basically indentured labour from China, not Canadians of Euro/British descent.....and the list goes on

What I am getting at is that there is injustice done everywhere, and its too easy to act like we're more special than anyone, when in reality there is as much blood on our hands. We need to be careful of judging other countries from our high horse. Too easy to forget who and what we swept under or own rug on our way to G8 stardom.....and I say that as a 13 year vet of the Royal Canadian Air Force and have done my service for our country with all its pluses and minuses. No country is perfect....why not move on to making our sport better?

Do you guys seriously think that anyone joining the Bahrain 13 makes our sport worse? (Sara or anyone else)

Yes Dev,

Living in a country where some bad stuff happened before I was even born is totally the same as working for a guy that personally tortured people.

You got me.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

C'mon Dev - it sounds like, again, you're saying that the West did terrible things, and in some cases continues to do terrible things, but those living in the West should stop calling attention to other countries human rights issues because their countries are no better than theirs/ were no better.

I'm sure you understand, but to reiterate: our background, country of origin or family of origin does not stop people from calling out these issues of concern, either within our own cultures or country, or in others.

I get your point about sport being a great leveller and mixing with people of different cultures is a good thing, but the question of whether the competitor should show support for countries with poor human rights records with their cash and participation remains.

Oh, and Sara? "Another protestor has crossed the line, to find the moneys on the other side"

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

There are many transgressions on our hands in your lifetime too. We're still throwing native Canadians under the bus. Bad stuff is going on everywhere. It's just too easy to judge others. I get it, you don't like the Prince and you don't like Sara signing up for his team. Shouting about it on an internet board will not reverse whatever human rights violations that this guy did. I was in the Armed Forces when Canadians tortured Somalis too but was not deployed there. The Commanding officer of that unit was also the Chairman of the Armed Forces tri team. It all happened under Col Serge Labbe's watch (all documented and public domain). I still raced on the team that he chaired even though he was CO of a deployed group messing up overseas. What did you/we do to better the lives of the Somalis (during your lifetime) while our servicemen beat them up? We Canadians have human rights transgressions on our hands in your lifetime.

It is not that hard, you don't make that much money and when someone flashes cash in front of your eyes and you can support your family easier what do you do? The only guy I have heard that said he doesn't care to do the races over there despite the money is Potts.

Yes Bahrain is better about rights than other middle eastern countries but it is still not even close to being "fair". Several non-profit groups said they have evidence that the prince directly was involved in torturing but since his family controls the courts he will never be charged. Trying to change the subject to east vs west is moot, talk about people involved in triathlons and what they have done. Follow the money and you will find the answer...

Response from Sara:

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Sara Gross

20 Jan 2016

Hi Ed,
Your comment highlights one of the reasons I want to engage with this team. The allegations against HH were brought against him in the UK. If we are to understand this situation, we should always look to be accurate, aim to see the bigger picture and understand everything that is at stake.
Thanks.
Sara
=============

In general, if one wanted to "look to be accurate" when investigating allegations of torture, it doesn't seem that getting on the payroll of the alleged torturer would necessarily unearth fair and unbiased information. It would also seem to me that the main thing "at stake" is the power held by the royal family.

Anyway, hopefully Sara will report back on her findings.

Does she think that statement makes any sense at all?

Edited to add my response to her:

Are you saying that joining the team and taking money from Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa will provide you with access and protection to fully and fairly investigate the allegations that he jailed and personally tortured Bahraini athletes that advocated for democracy? Will you advocate for a fair and independent judiciary to take up your findings in a court of law? Of course you will not do these things. Even if you were able to rise above the conflict of interest you have due to the fact you earn your living from him, you would be jailed, and possibly even tortured by him personally if you did any of these things. But yeah... other than that, your comment makes a lot of sense.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

She and his Highness are proactively thinking outside the box to produce a synergistic vision for the future.

Yeah, if she were a wheel manufacturer she'd now be Dished Wheels.

I read it a few times and tried to read between the lines, but yes, I would agree it makes little sense and no response at all would probably have been better. To me, it all smacks of obtuseness to avoid the uncomfortable reality of the situation.

Athlete's are not politicians.

Athletes let us see what is possible. If they align with the future. Otherwise just enjoy the show;;;;;;;;;;;;

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Team Off Constantly

women rights aren't a priority in the Middle East

There is a tendency to be too broad here. I'm no expert, but like many things, when you are talking about multiple countries across a region, you are going to have a range*. There are certain middle-eastern countries that are more progressive than others.


My understanding is that in the middle east there is a range of progression on womens issues from country to country. Now, if you go to 30,000 ft and look at the region as a whole and compare it to Europe, yes women's issues are not at the same level of priority.


*It would be like saying all those North Americans are crazy for guns! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree with you. However, I would say that as a professional athlete, you are trying to project an "image" of yourself and your endorsements. While there are more progressive countries in the Middle-East than others (Bahrain might be one, I'm no expert), the general public will only see the broad picture.

the general public will only see the broad picture.

. . . and that's where there may be a great opportunity here. To change those broad public perceptions and stereotypes!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The issue is not going to Bahrain, or any other Middle-Eastern country to promote women's rights, athletics, etc. The issue is going to Bahrain to promote women's rights on the dime of the royal family.

I missed this a couple weeks ago. WOW.

Something motivates a person to form triequal and to spend a lot of time and effort on that. That motivation to become an activist is something strong and powerful. It is not just a matter of being bothered by someone's post on slowtwitch and staying up late to reply. That effort had to come from real passion.

That passion leads Sara to feel she had a duty to interview Dan Empfield and among other things:

- ask him to update the "about" section to reference female employees
- ask why only 1 of 36 articles on the front page are written by women
- ask why there are so few women posters
- ask (and this was absurd I think) if slowtwitch is too technical for women


What has me (and I think others) confused is: what happens to the passion when she is in Bahrain? If Dan Empfield is a itch that had to be scratched, how's she gonna feel there? Even if Dan is the misogynist Hugh Hefner of triathlon, he is small potatoes compared to what she is going to find there in all kinds of different places. Will she ask to do an interview with any men in power?

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Since she grew up, in part, in Dubai, I think she knows how she's going to feel, and is fairly familiar with Middle East culture. And it's not inconsistent for an activist to seek out places where they could have the most effect vs. the places they feel the most comfortable.

That said, I'm no fan of her decision for other reasons.

Perhaps so. I just can't think of any examples where it is anything but a sell-out.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

activists may go to places they feel they could have an impact, I'm hard pressed to think of an example where they're going on the dime of the people they want to change

It would be like exxcon or BP or shell sponsoring green peace

Right, that's the "other reasons" I was referring to.

I have to be honest and say this is comedy gold..........when someone says "you couldn't make it up" - I think this is what they're talking about.

Here is a thought. Is it possible that the person whose dime she is going on, wants to make changes for women's access and health, but at the same time that person is accused of torture during the Arab Spring. People are complicated, and I know many on ST have a problem with decoupling the revolting side of a person from the qualities that might be bearable or even attractive. Most of my friends, there are things I love about them and there are corners of their lives that I just can't stand, but I keep them as friends because some things they do, either don't affect me, they don't annoy me enough, or they don't spill into the specifics of our relationship. The same applies to close family members.

Perhaps Sarah feels that she is on the dime of someone who wants to change opportunities for women, while she is also on the dime of someone accused of wrongdoings during the Arab spring (she has perhaps glossed over the latter in a previous public statement that did not work out well).

As she told slowman at TBI and as Slowman explained about many grey area things in life, "It is complicated". Daily we engage with products, services and other aspects of western life brought to us by tyrants, dictators and polluters which are gloss over in day to day western life being far decoupled from how that oil get to us, or how those diamonds do, or how our tri gear does from cheap factories in the Pearl River Delta or clothing shops in Pakistan or Bangladesh. We're just as much "on the take" from bad guys, so it's a slippery slope from our glass houses.

I think we let the body of work that Sara achieves be the final measure of the engagement with the Bahrainis. It's easy sitting on our butts in the west (not you Andrew, since you are local in the Middle East), and throw her under the bus. Meanwhile, we let off all kinds of people in our sport....namely Felix and Messick who have directly engaged with the Bahrainis. They are making money through the engagement with the same people while also at the same time bringing sport to that part of the world. Maybe rather than beat up on a pro triathlete, (who we can argue barely gets by financially in the first place), we can look at the larger picture of what she gets done.

I'll probably keep getting sucked back into this thread every time it gets bumped until Sara proves to me that she just "sold out" and got nothing done. From what I see, Gomez, Frodo, Ryf, Steffen, Kienle...well none of them are doing anything either for the advancement of women's rights in the middle east either. They are truly on the take with no charter to do other things to directly influence athletes locally (men and women) from what I see.

"Will she ask to do N interview with any of the men in power?"

Maybe a puff piece directed by their PR people. More likely, she will cash her check and do as she is told.

Pretty much what Sara is doing as well. I think her statements about trying to make a change are a convenient backpedaling of an excuse once there was a backlash. I think she's in it for the money too. If I'm a big Jewish rights advocate I probably wouldn't join the Nazi Party Triathlon Team funded by Adolf Hitler, in some lame brained attempt to change things from within. Hyperbole notwithstanding... that's about as ridiculous sounding.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I completely understand that we all must engage with colleagues friends and family members who have done things we despise or have personality traits that we dislike. But there must be a limit at which we no longer are able to look past bad behavior to work with them on something else. If imprisoning and torturing people who peacefully express a desire to be free does not lie beyond that limit, what does?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Sure it is possible. But anything she does behind the scenes will be outweighed by the negative if she changes her behavior. By changing her behavior I mean going from outspoken woman who is unafraid to challenge men in power to becoming a quiet meek and accepting woman. If she does that, her biggest statement will be: "outspoken woman from North America comes to Bahrain and changes behavior showing she knows proper way for women to behave in the middle east."

We'll see if she sells-out on speaking up. Early indications are not good.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Right. And while I don't think the athletes involved are much better, at least they haven't, to my knowledge, positioned themselves as women's rights crusaders prior to taking their blood money.

Exactly. It almost defies logic what she did. Maybe she was being completely altruistic but I don't believe she's that naive.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

OK, I think if you guys were in Philosophy 101 class most of you guys would fail. There is technically no link between suppressing people (mainly young men) trying to topple your regime while at the same time promoting women's rights and access to sport. I say 'technically' because a Prince in power, be it one that Machiavelli described, or our boy from Bahrain, could want to do everything he wants to do to stay onto power, while also limiting women's rights. Or he could do whatever he has to do to hang onto power, while supporting women's rights. I don't have the answer to that, but doing vile things to hang onto power, and supporting women's rights can "co exist" in the same person. I don't have the answer on whether it does or not in this case. Most of you don't either. Sarah may. Other triathletes on the Bahrain13 may also.

I do agree with you guys in a world where marketing and perception are important and where they can be largely decoupled from intellectual reality, it's a bit of a lift to be women's rights crusader while being on the payroll of someone who did his share to suppress people opposing him during the Arab spring. He would not be the first guy in power to do so though. We're all supporting a variety of dictators who did a variety of atrocities each time we go to the pump to fill up gas, so it's really a question of degrees of how closely we happen to be coupled to the guys who did mean things to stay in power.

Let's see what she gets done in the next year and then make a call. At least she is doing this from a position of being informed having lived in the Middle East and having done sport while based there (well, she was part of the ex pat community, but at least had a big window more than any of us).

It seems that a major part of growing up involves setting aside ones ideals in favor of making a living. (Perhaps there are some ideals we can't or shouldn't set aside).

This is a natural part of life. And something we all face.
What makes us human is that we recognize and accept the hypocrisy in our decisions. After all we didn't invent this stupid world- we just weren't smart enough to change it much.

Phonies and sociopaths never reach this conclusion. They don't "sell out." What is "right" and "wrong" magically changes depending on what they want.

That said I think one would need to talk with Sara off the record to see exactly were she stands.

I've already made the call. She said that she'd leave the issue of torture "to the courts." The courts are effectively owned by the royal family. So either she's being condescending and hand-waving away the issue, or she's ignorant of the natural tension between totalitarian power and individual rights. It's an open question whether the types of rights she crusades for are in any way consistent with totalitarian power. Even if she truly believes "His Highness" is a truly benevolent ruler-in-waiting.

I'm a friend of Sara's.

This wasn't a decision she took lightly.

It wasn't about the money. She could be making more money doing various other jobs that are far less contentious.

She truly is passionate about her work on women in sport.

I view her as the type of person who thinks about how an opportunity can lead to positive change. Period.

Dev, you don't know what you are talking about. If you did, you would argue that Bahrain is THE leader in women's rights in the middle east.

Yeah, I looked it up. Well, I didn't study it, but I read this wiki article. Bahrain is still ranked only 102/165 as good countries for women, (Canada, 3, USA 8). Anyway, it is fair to say they are not great, but are improving and are a leader in the region.

Knowing this now, I'm downgrading my ranking of her sell-out from 9 out of 10 to to a 6 of 10.

But if you can't admit any irony in her move, then you must have failed Lit 101 in college (or perhaps it is because you are Canadian?).

I don't begrudge Sara her decision, but after her interview of slowman, she deserves some abuse.

Moving on now, best wishes to her in her new endeavors.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I am so happy to see that people actually care about this. With so many famous athletes joining this highly offensive team, I had expected there to be broader support. I am pleased that people are seeing it for what it is. Whether or not he was 'directly' involved in torture is something we may never know but we DO know that they named the team after the Bahrain 13 in an attempt to cover up references to the real Bahrain 13. That was a decision we can see and that decision, to me, says a lot about the motivations of the people in control of Bahrain. I'd had a hard time not booing an athlete who ran by me wearing that kit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain_Thirteen

I am not really sure how the current "ranking" of a country has anything to do with the potential to make change happen and not sure how this is coupled with literature (perhaps you are referring to my ability to look things up on the internet....but if you want to insult me, go ahead, but I don't see the need to insult all Canadians if you disagree with one person).

While 102 is not great, there are fairly well respected countries not doing that much better. Look at Japan, just a few points higher in 87th place. They are on par when it comes to both education and health, two areas I believe that Sara will be involved with when it comes to the sport side. Justice and Politics would seem to be out of scope for any individual athlete to affect. It seems like Bahraini women have better economic prospects than Japanese women which I was somewhat surprised, by, but then when I thought about my business interactions in over 15 trips to Japan, perhaps that is not that surprising since I have interacted with probably 97% male decision makers there. Never did biz in Bahrain, so can't comment.

87, Japan
Overall score (out of 100): 68.0
Justice: 73.5
Health: 85.8
Education: 88.3
Economics: 69.7
Politics: 26.9
102, Bahrain
Overall score (out of 100): 62.2
Justice: 48.0
Health: 86.8
Education: 87.5
Economics: 71.2
Politics: 33.9

She is not listed as one of their athletes on the bahrainendurance13 website - although there is a news article confirming she joined. Hard to argue with the calibre of athletes on that roster. I guess money talks - as long as you are male anyway.

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Apologies regarding the Canadian reference. I meant that as irony as Canada is a Commonwealth country and it is often said that American's don't get irony. There is the old saw about an American visiting London standing under an umbrella on a dreary rainy day and being confused when a brit says to him, "Lovely weather we are having here." Before anyone calls me racist for saying Americans and British have different comic tastes, there are many good takes on this on youtube, this being my favorite.

Seeing as you may be more American than British in your humor, I will rewrite my post without any irony and sarcasm:

Dev, I have come around more to your argument based on some some research I did. Initially, I lumped Bahrain with other middle-eastern countries with horrendous women's rights records (e.g. Saudi Arabia). Now I see that Bahrain is actually the leader in women's rights in the region, being the first to give women the right to vote, allowing women to work, and having the highest percentage of working women. Thus there is far less irony, and less "sell-out", with Sara's move to Bahrain than I perceived earlier.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Wow,
you are really trying hard to sell a spin to this.
Going so far to insult the intelligence of others who have brought up legitimate questions Mrs. Gross wasn't willing or able to address.

Nicely done!

Unless we hear a better spin to the story, simple will suffice:

Actions speak louder than words.

Sara just released this video statement:

https://www.youtube.com/...st=RDdQw4w9WgXcQ#t=0

Sorry, if I insulted anyone's intelligence. I was trying to point out that a person potentially doing vile things to hang onto power, does not automatically make him someone who is against women's rights and opportunity. He may be against women's right, but my point was you can't automatically couple the two things together. I should have left out the ref to philosophy 101. I am not trying to spin anything though, other than pointing out the logical flaw in coupling the two items together. Sara still has to fight an uphill perception battle which is clear from the vocal outrage on this thread directed towards her.

Let's see what Sara achieves in this role and then decide if she is any different than Frodo or Ryf (and others mentioned) who are much more on the take with seemingly no charter to enable the sport with direct hands on work at the local level. And perhaps the top tier athletes need not do anything but 'be fast' because the exposure they bring will inspire locals.