these m-dot races are a complete joke. $800 to do a race with no pros? it used to be 1/2 that price with full male and female pro fields. i hope you enjoy getting ripped off and padding the pockets of PE guys.

There are a lot more events to choose from on the east coast now, like Tremblant, Maryland, etc. Lake Placid used to be the only IM driveable for people from the northeast so demand was high.

I hate to break it to you, but you are probably padding the pocket of PE guys with 80% of the purchases you make.

---

____________________
Titanium faces rock!

so the question is, will it be days...or weeks, to sellout?

i'm not but nice try at trying to rationalize getting ripped off by WTC. remind me again how PE makes money when i buy a home from a private seller, a car from a public company, a tv from a public company. i will remind you that IMLP used to cost less than 1/2 of what it does now and had full pro fields, a mass swim start and better support on the bike and run. you sound like you are WTC's ideal consumer who enjoys getting ripped off.

Yea, I have 2 friends who are thinking of pulling the trigger. I told them to hurry up because I have never heard of it being open this long. This being one of the older races , I wanted to give it a shot.

As far as cost etc......lol. Its my money I will spend it how I please. I agree its pricey but factor in inflation and it isn't quite as obscene.

If you just stashed 1000.00 in the mattress, you have lost about 30-40% in the last 5-10 years. Do you still spend the same amount at the grocery store as you did 10+ years ago?

Yeah... that pro field really drives the market.

Pros register somewhere around zero to 1 out of 10 on the Who Gives a Fuck meter when it comes to anyone's choice of picking an event to race.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I guess that would be me. Rip me off, WTC, please! I guess I have been under the delusion that the market price for a good or service is the level that clears supply and demand. If you like paying $450 for an indie instead of $750 for an Ironman then by all means have at it. But the market believes, and has demonstrated repeatedly, that WTC provides value that many independents do not. And I have certainly experienced that first hand. It kind of goes along with the saying that you get what you pay for. When WTC quits providing that value, or when the supply is too great relative to those who wish to participate, then and only then, will entry prices level off or actually decrease.

As to the pro's or lack of pro's at an IM. As if that has anything to do with the value of a race!! I guess you missed all those threads on ST where a large number of people consider the pro value proposition to equal $0.

The people here on slowtwitch care more about the pros than the general population of triathlon participants. Even though the pro races are something I am interested in, even that doesn't drive my choice of what race to do. More important things are time of year, location and price.

you clearly are the target consumer for WTC -- they turn what used to be a great race into an awful race and still will have people like yourself lined up (although, based on sign-ups this year, not really anymore) to overpay for it. there is a big chunk of lemmings like yourself who has no idea how many corners have been cut and how much worse the support is as compared to when it was privately owned and run (in addition now to having far too many people on the starting line). i guess i was being a bit presumptuous in thinking that you actually cared if pros were in the race. however, even though you don't care if pros are in the race, the fact that the pro budget has been eliminated and the price for you has gone up should give you some idea how much you are getting ripped off.

the fact that you think WTC provides "value" is about all i need to know about how out to lunch you are. where are you planning on getting the m-dot tat?

Yeah, I want to do Lake Placid eventually because that is the race that got me interested in triathlon to begin with and the Adirondacks are perhaps my favorite place anywhere so doing a major race here just makes sense. Whether there are any pros there or not really doesn't matter to me. HOWEVER, for being a spectator at a race I would much rather see some pros. It was much more interested to follow the race when Andy Potts decided to run it. This year, I looked it up and was like...eh...

Yea, is it just female pro field next year?

Not just Placid. Go to the IM website and lots of the races that used to sell out in seconds are still open--Germany, Melbourne, Australia. In fact, I think about the only race sold out for 2016 at this point is Austria and even that was open for a week.

Of course I'm aware of WTC cutting corners to pay back their recap. But apart from Challenge Roth where is that fantastic, incredibly well organized iron distance race with a modicum of competition. Please do not mention HITS.

Let's all face it. IM is dead or dying. I give it 3 more years before all anyone does is shakeweight in their basements. ;-)

---

~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

LOL. I thought shakeweights were so 2010. Now its all about color runs. I did see an article recently that said outdoor equipment companies are having to adjust to the new generation that does not see the need to "go for the summit" but camps out at Cochella. I doubt IM is in trouble, but I do think that once the babyboomers and late Gen Xers retire, the fields are going to be smaller...and a lot slower on average.

You're so delusional about this it's funny but I will agree that changing the swim start from mass to rolling (I'm assuming it's rolling) is shit.

But thinking the pros matter is just plain dumb. Ironman Wisconsin got rid of the pros this year and I could. not. be. happier!

But again, if they got rid of the mass start, I would be really pissed.

i never said that pros "matter" to the masses. however, the race used to have a budget for pros that had to have been around $100K and now that is gone so theoretically that's $100K that either could be put back into the race or used to reduce entries fees. neither has happened when in fact that opposite has happened -- less is spent on supporting the race and fees have gone up.

the TT swim is a joke.

I did IMLP the 1st 10 years and then the last two.

There has been much improvement in the race experience...starting with packet pick up...the transition area is better organized....and the support on the race course
has been good...... this year I also "took advantage" of the medical tent and received top notch care to get me back on my feet......."awful race" is a stretch?

My wife and I love the ADK's, we come a few days early and stay afterwards for a few days. In the grand scheme of things the race entry fee is a part of a great vacation.

Sorry, but a pro field has never been a determining factor in any race I've competed in.

It's obviously not selling out because of the issue pointed out in the LP DQ thread...

---

"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday."

I've done the race 7 times since 2003. The event overall has remained fairly constant. Frankly, I prefer the rolling swim start to a mass swim start. I haven't noticed that it changes things at all for the remainder of the race except to avoid a pummeling. Yeah, the medals are kinda generic now and the finishing t-shirts a plastic thing that no one ever wears other than the day following ironman. Having a pro aspect to the race is interesting for a couple of minutes but is really the last thing on my mind during the event. There are a lot more IMs now due to the demand. There was a lot of mental stress about trying to enter a race that would sell out in minutes. It's nice to be able to have more options now. I suspect that Tremblant is drawing a lot of IMLP racers. I'd try Tremblant if I lived in the northeast and didn't have family in LP. In terms of entry fee, meh, everything goes up. We just returned from Paris and our favorite hotel that we have been staying at since the early 2000s where it use to be about $150 a night and this summer was $400 per night. I did a half last year out here in California and I paid something like $350 and the support was minimal at best - a few tables set up with some gels and water. The swag bag was an envelope of coupons. So, I think I'm still getting a decent value overall with IM for something I only do once a year.

Pretty sure it didn't sell out immediately last year either. Prob cause of the bad weather in 2014.

Here's last year's thread. Titled: "Surprised to find Lake Placid 2015 still had spots at 1:15 EST"

Having done both IM branded and non-branded events I can tell you that in my opinion what IM brings to the table is marginal at best. Don't get me wrong, I think IM events are awesome and well put together but I have also heard that B2B, MiTitanium, Redman, and Vineman (this one I know first hand) are awesome also. As a matter of fact the only real difference that I saw between Vineman and an IM was the full backpack and the finisher cap at the end. Besides that I can't think of one thing that I would say IM does better. A freaking cheap backpack and a $15 hat are not worth the $350 difference in registration fee. IMHO. I think what drives the price is that people are crazy for the name "Ironman". The brand has inmense value for some people and that keeps prices up.

---

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

I'm waiting for the M-dot-branded "pilot" relief tubes to be sold at the expo. Maybe with a "Texas" catheter. And I suppose Lake Flaccid will want some kind of modesty cover on the bottle.

I say everybody here buy the guy who got DQ'd a beer until he's even.

Then we'll re-fill the bottles and mail them back to M-Dot.

I feel the same way about Land Rover versus Honda, especially since the latter is vastly more reliable. But on the other hand, I would not say that Land Rover buyers are "out to lunch". To each his own, but some folks are so bitter about WTC that they demean others who choose differently. Really, I wouldn't pay $1 to do a color run, but tens of thousands of people happily spend their money and enjoy the hell out of it. They received value.

I've read good things about 3 of the 4 races you mentioned. However, Redman may be well organized but suffers from poor location. E.g., unless you are close to OKC would you consider this a destination event? It's not even worth pursuing for ITU Worlds because that means TWO trips to nowhere! Michigan Titanium is in the same boat. You should add Savageman though. That one is definitely on my bucket list.

What is PE?

All kidding aside, I've done IMLP twice, and had a top knotch experience both times. Staying a week up there during IM week is absolute heaven. My family has gone back to LP a few times during non-IM week and it's really nice (it was hockey week last time we went).

I've done a lot of IM branded races, along with Rev3, Challenge, HITS, etc. and IM (especially LP) is at the top of the list as far as my experiences have gone (though I've had a great/top knotch time at Challenge/Rev3 too, but it's a totally different vibe).

Maybe I'll do IMLP in another year or two. I'm mentally still suffering from the last one, but the overall experience up there was excellent and worth the big price tag.

Now, if they could do a Color IMLP I'd be back in a heartbeat! <hugely pink>

---

~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

Prostate exam?

---

~~~~~~~~~
Empire Tri Coach
Team Gatorade Endurance
USATF Coach | NYRR Distance Pacer
Dad of twins

Private Equity. It's a pleasant way of saying 'rich dudes'.

Ahh. thank you.

I did IMLP this year and am signed up for next year. I resent the monopolistic aspects of WTC, but clearly am helping perpetuate it by being a paying customer. As far as the value proposition is concerned, I will say:

- Pre-race logistics (check-in, briefing, racking, etc.) were all fine
- Race experience was top notch. Mostly, this is due to the exceptional volunteer mobilization, but clearly WTC gets credit for the organization aspect. I especially appreciated that the on-course and transition volunteers were attune to athlete needs (wetsuit rippers, aid station personnel, transition helpers, bike rackers, etc.)
- The finish line volunteers were super attentive. Great people
- Post race food was ok. It could have been a little healthier, but I was happy to have it.
- I enjoyed the free massage. I got one over on WTC by getting more than my allotted 10 minutes.
- Where is the beer tent? Always like to get a couple free cold ones after a marathon or tri.
- Swag is garbage (t-shirt, hat, medal, etc.). This is clearly a place where WTC could leave a better impression by offering a few quality items. I know plenty of merch is for sale, but c'mon. People will better advertise your brand if you actually give them something worth wearing.
- Free breakfast was good. Happy to have it.

As far as the cost of this event, an equally frustrating aspect is the selection of a community with limited lodging available, which leads to price gouging. I stayed in a place that usually goes for $80 per night, was four times that, and I was lucky to have it. Oh, well--nobody will ever do anything about this aspect.

All together, the value was not too bad. I credit the 2000+ volunteers for that, as opposed to WTC or the local inn keepers.

I hope they didn't rip your wetsuit!!!! :-)

The non-PC term is "wetsuit stripper" but the PC term is "wetsuit peeler".

---

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

What iron distance race(s) would you recommend?

I actually think PE was for Providence Equity which is the company that owns WTC.

I'm personally more annoyed at the hotels that jack up their rates than WTC for gradually increasing Fees over time. Thinking they can keep their fees the same over a decade is silly. Let's also not forget they pay the pros more now these days...which is still a joke no matter how you look at it.

---

____________________
Titanium faces rock!

This, unless your name was that we will not mention before he got busted.

---

---

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I'm going to create my own race and it will have hookers and blackjack. Oh forget the race part.

---

---

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Add a craps table and I am in

I did IMLP 10 times between 1999 and 2009 and then once more in 2013. In the end, what got me to stop doing IMLP was the cost of hotels. It got to the point that for almost the same price I could travel to Europe and do a race there vs driving to LP and paying $399 per nite minimum 5 nite stay. At Whistler, I can stay 100m - 500m from the finish line for $255 for a one bedroom suite with a kitchenette at a 4 star hotel. That is less than $200 USD, so around half the price of LP for way better accommodations. As some of you can guess, I don't mind paying WTC for races which are great quality overall. In my book the housing should not cost me more than the race itself. In my value scheme, races are high value in my life. As a former servicemen, I can sleep in a sleeping bag in a trench with something covered my head, so I HATE paying for overpriced accommodations.

That is true. The Texas 70.3 in Galveston was a fairly popular 70.3 race for WTC. It never sold out until the year Mr. Armstrong did it (2012 I think). Late registrations soared after it was announced Lance was going to race (500-600 more racers than previous year). Race has sold out every year since.

Lance really moved the needle there but he was certainly an anomaly. He's the most popular endurance athlete on the planet and had about 1,000,000x the star power of any other pro triathlete. It was a circus in Galveston that weekend.

---

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I just looked and was surprised to see Redman limits their full distance participation to 200 and only 150 next year due to hosting long course Nat's. Maybe since both the bike and run courses are loops it "feels" bigger?

Same with the Florida 70.3 when it moved to a new venue. There were locals who had no intention of racing until he announced he was going. Some people raced that weren't even planning to do a 70.3 in that timeframe. But again, EVERYBODY knew who he is. With the exception of a few names that stick in my head (mostly the hot women), I don't know who any racers are beyond the two I actually know and train with occasionally. I couldn't pick them out of a line up, and I certainly don't pick my races based on that.

I will admit, I think I could id Starky, but only because he looks like Buffalo Bill from silence of the lambs.

---

---

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

This is too much for me and I'm a pretty liberal spender. It's not just the absolute amount of money, but also the risk I can't race. I signed up to two races at the end of last year and now am injured I'm probably out of both which is $1300+ out of my pocket. I like Ironman races but will probably just sign up to something last minute (if anything's open and I'm in shape) and spend the rest of the time doing local races

Then why don't you just set up a tent off one of the trails in Lake Placid and stay for free?

I was just referring to the principle of value for lodging. My family is not interested in camping at an IM venue, although I have done plenty of races solo where I do that. At an IM, where my family is coming we won't camp. And as much as I love LP, I have done it enough times. I'll probably race the Alpe d'Huez tri before I come back to LP. I love LP, but life is too short to be paying 4x over price lodgings. I'll overpay for accommodations at a new venue, but not an old one given that at an old venue that I have been to, the tourism content is low and I am just there to race. I go back to LP every year for our Epicman training event and that's when I get to re connect with the community, pay fair lodging and "race/train" on the course for nothing.

I totally agree with you on cost and it's not only IMLP that has high hotel costs. I honestly can't afford to do a race today that would necessitate a 5 night hotel room cost. Especially if then you're also going to have to eat most of your meals at restaurants.

I haven't done a WTC Ironman in 5 years - I've done a few 70.3s since they are pretty easy to get into and out of. And the last Ironman race I did was IM Canada and I stayed in the campground to avoid $250 x 5 nights hotel costs.

The hyperbole here astounds me. One has to search pretty far to find a hotel in LP that has a 5 night min. Most are 3 nights with the exception of a few high-end places that have 4. You guys that are blowing smoke about 5 night mins with 3x increases in nightly rate are 'the sky is falling' types.

There are condos, homes and hotels that are really reasonable. It might take 2-3 more clicks on the computer to find them. Sheesh.

You're mistaken.
During race week, almost ALL the local LP hotels have 5 night minimums.
At $300 / night, minimum.
We're not making this shit up.

---

float , hammer , and jog

lol...umm...NO! ...and ...
.... No (again)


.

Yes to the no. The only reason my hovering finger hasn't pressed return on the registration page is the cost of lodging. I did LP in '12.'13,'14. It's just tough to justify getting gouged year after year.

---

-----------------
Dale Stephanos (Formerly PappaD)

That explains why you stayed at the Red Roof Inn for Mooseman and Ermitage du Lac for Tremblant. I'm in the same boat, if the family is going my hotel cost is 2-3 times more per night.

Now that you mention it Dev, I'll bet the strong US dollar plays a role in the LP registration. For someone in Toronto IMLP is all of a sudden much more expensive even just to sing up vs. Tremblant. In the first few years after adding Tremblant the CAD was much stronger and may have lured Ontarioians to LP even though they could now (2012) drive to another IM in Tremblant.

Lots of us have tried hundreds of clicks a full year in advance with no luck. I actually thought I had one once. It was advertised as a house rental with something like $150 a night and no minimum stay. I left a message. I got a call back specifically stating that it was race week, which meant that the fee was now $350 with a 7 day minimum. That's the kind of crap that keeps me from going back. The locals have learned that they can gouge the tri community without consequence and have no moral qualms in doing so.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

OK - for all those 'in the know'. I contacted the CVB in Lake Placid. To prove you all wrong. And they sent me a spreadsheet with all hotels listed for 2015 IM race week . The totals with minimums are:

0 night min stay = 1 property
2 night min = 3 properties
3 night min= 4 properties
4 night min= 13 properties
5 night min= 7 properties

As you can see, not ALL hotels are requiring 5 night minimums. Actually, of 28 properties listed, a full 25% ARE requiring 5 nights. In some circles, 25% = all. In most circles, this isn't even most.

Straight from the horses mouth. Feel free to call them to verify. Once again, the exaggeration of America continues. Drama is more fun that the actual truth.

So you found a total of 28 out of a few of thousand possible locations still available 51 weeks away from the event= not a high percentage. Congrats on the exorbitantly small victory on the min stay front. Now, cross check their prices for race week versus the last week in June. Also, are they within 5-10 miles of transition? (<-- Honest question)

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Pretty well all of us love the race and the environment. And I think most of us are willing to overpay for one year, maybe two or three. After that it gets old when there are many other IM options where you don't need to overpay any more than a regular weekend when the have the Jazz festival, the fireworks festival, a mountain bike world cup or some other cultural thing going on in the IM town in question. That's really the crux of it. To me it is fundamental problem when I am paying more for the Northwoods Inn in LP than at the Grand Hyatt in Hong Kong harbour with the water side view for the 20th floor. That's when you just shake your head and go, "I don't mind over paying a bit, but this is not value for my money". I think part of LP not selling out is a lot of Canadians who are waiting to decide if they do Muskoka or Tremblant next year vs LP. With the Canadian dollar now borderline 75 cents, a $350 LP location turns into a > $460....make that a 4 night minimum and after tax this is $2000 CDN. I got a 4 nights for a one bedroom suite with a kitchenette in Whistler for $1200 all taxes in. That's not cheap, but for the quality of what I will get 100m from the finish line in the middle of the village it is hard to turn that down. Entry fee is $705 CDN. You'll get similar options in Tremblant and I imagine the entry fee will be in that range too.

....and certainly for American racers, these Canadian races just got a lot cheaper.

Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion.

Nice solid research.

Yes they are. All hotels in town. And I was actually surprised at rates. Feel free to contact the CVB. The whole LP gouge thing is a bit overblown. If you know people in town, you can get a deal. BTW The list they gave me was from this year. All from June of 2015 looking forward to race week.

"Hannah, you've not even touched my knees. I seem to get very dirty knees"

---

http://www.PatGriskusTri.com USAT Certified Race Director
2024 Races: USAT State of CT Age Group Championship/State of CT HS Champs/ CT Club Championship - Sat June 15th (Oly/Du/Sprint) Hopkins Vineyard Tri at Lake Waramaug Saturday July 13th http://www.HopkinsVineyardTri.com

I'm sure all 2500+ folks racing at LP every year know people in town, too.

---

float , hammer , and jog

Well that is because you got a goat...and nobody wants a goat.

I had a wonderful week in Lake Placid. We rented a house and it was expensive but very nice. I prefer to stay in a house for Ironman races.

I know that every race says that the city comes out to support the race but I've never seen such support (on the bike course especially) like this little village for the Ironman race. Well nothing tops the NYC marathon but this is really great.

After the race I did the Olympic touristy stuff with my kids. I repeatedly had locals thank me for doing the race which was nice. I was dutifully wearing my hat so they knew.

For me the issue is actually how long it takes to travel to Lake Placid. If I was closer I might do this race every year.

As far as not selling out it's a change I'm glad to see. Being forced to pick a race over a year out and the stress of being ready to register at 12:01 is something I can do without.