http://velonews.competitor.com/...triathlon-world_7200

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10 years ago and your point is?

She doped 10 years ago, openly admitted her cheating, and served her time. So...?

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Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

That obviously EPO hasn't had any negative long term effects on her performance!

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Unfortunately that means nothing Jack - what people will hear about is she is the oldest ever IM winner. That's the reality. And that means the reality for me is a few more years in the sport as wifey is dead set on being the oldest ITU WC Series winner and IM winner.....so the goal posts just got moved! IMNZ2017....got a ring to it eh <pink> ?!

Any wins after her EPO admission should have an "*" next to them. I personally believe that once you cheat in a sport you should not be allowed to complete in that sport ever again.

EDIT: for people that could not follow what I meant. USING PED's IS CHEATING and you should be banned for life.

So you don't believe once one served their penalty, that they should be allowed to race? Curious to how you view crime. If one shoplifts, should one never be allowed to shop again? What if one get's caught speeding. Should license be pulled forever? What about a college kid that gets a MPI, should they never be allowed to touch alcohol again? etc. etc.

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Congrats I guess. Beyond the EPO issue it also made me think about the strength of the women's field, with only 4 going sub 10 hours.

Define "cheat".

She served her penalty, was prohibited for a reasonable period of time, so she should be allowed back in. That's a long time ago.

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I met her after her 2007 IMFL win. She could not have been nicer. I have spoke with her several times since then and she is a sweet heart.

I think the penalties are way to soft on drug use in sport. Maybe if the penalties were a lot more sever in your examples these items would not be so prevalent in our society.

Take your example of speeding. How many people would speed if the penalties were say $5000 and 1year suspension from driving?

BUT we are talking sport here and last time I checked it is not a CRIME to cheat in sports.

She used a banned substance to win = CHEAT. Pretty simple. I do not believe in any sport when you cheat and still benefit years later that you should be able to compete still. Just my view so she will always have an "*" next to her name as far as I am concerned.

Agreed! I was at Louisville for one of her previous victories and she is a great person.
Is she actually 46 yet or closing in on it? Awesome to see the limits pushed back. Cannot wait to see others do the same. Now I can just wish PNF would come out of retirement one more time.......



Pity Carlson decided to use a backhanded put down in the Weekend Box.

If sports like triathlon & cycling were serious about eradicating PEDs they would have implemented stronger penalties years ago. A 2-year ban is not enough to discourage athletes from rolling the dice.

I was in Kona the year Kraft got popped and not only did she cheat with PEDs, when she was interviewed in the penalty tent, she complained that the referees were anti-German and that's the reason she got a drafting penalty. Her deliberate actions also stole from Natasha the elation of knowing she was the winner on Ali'i. In my opinion, she has no class and is bad for our sport.

Right or wrong, when I saw that she won today, I immediately assumed that she doped again and has managed not to get caught.

So your saying that using any banned substance = cheat = lifetime ban? What about drafting, that gives more of an advantage than a lot of banned substances. In order for the penalties to br fair, that's a lifetime ban too. Accepting outside assistance? Lifetime ban. Dropping a swim cap in transition? Crossing the centreline? Exceeding the speed limit on the bike course on that tricky section at Oceanside 70.3?

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To you and Runguy: it's not enough that she be allowed to race again--you also think the rest of us shouldn't be allowed to point out her doping history, and speculate on how it may help her current performance?

Always Curious - said it much better than I did below.

PED = death sentence

Drafting = light sentence

Dropping a cap in transition = slap on the wrist.

We've had this discussion many times before:

• Dropping a cap, crossing the centerline, etc., are spur-of-the-moment decisions, and should be penalized least.
• Drafting is strategic cheating during the course of the race, and should be penalized more.
• Doping is premeditated long-term lying, cheating, law breaking and deception done multiple times outside the race venue to gain a season-long advantage. The depth of the intent to cheat is much, much greater, and should be penalized much, much more.

There can be no real discussions when you can't distinguished between the degrees of cheating and the corresponding degree of punishment.

It's the same with the children in your house. It's the same with the criminal system. Certain infractions, you slap someone's hand. Certain infractions, you throw away the keys.

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Well, you're the one saying cheating = lifetime ban. We've now established that you don't really think that, so it's just a matter of quibbling on appropriate penalties.

Is any ped worthy of a lifetime ban, or are some more ban-worthy than others?

Edit, sorry that was bmanx saying that...

But anyway, dropping a cap or crossing the centreline is more likely to endanger other competitors than drafting. Maybe those penalties should be harsher.

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Well, until the rules are changed it is what it is. Same thing can be said for baseball and the steroid era. Then you got football where a player knocked his GF out (they have the video) and the NFL suspends him for 4 games. What a joke.

BTW, the NFL and the union have not yet agreed to the biological passport and its going on 2 years

Didn't cycling change the penalty to 4 year ban for a serious infraction recently?

>Congrats I guess. Beyond the EPO issue it also made me think about the strength of the women's field, with only 4 going sub 10 hours.

Yeah, 7 women pro finishers. That's not deep. Women's IM seems to be a barely viable sport. ITU is way more exciting.

Yell that to guys in the Peleton. I'm sure some of them would rather have been 10 m back after some collisions occurred

Talking about triathlon here, not cycling....

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Pity Carlson decided to use a backhanded put down in the Weekend Box. //

What put down? He said that she cheated Natasha out of an ironman hawaii win a long time ago, and how ironic that is it that se takes away natasha's oldest winner title now too. You may not want to for some reason acknowledge her past drug use, but the rest of us and history will not forget it. I mean the oldest winner title thing is really just a made up thing, like fastest ironman winners. Courses are short, long, and all over the place. But if you don't see the irony in the fact that she is the one to supplant Natasha from this made up thing, after actually being the one to cheat her out of an ironman title finish, well you just don't have irony in your quiver i guess..

Have you seen how close some people sick wheels in a tri? One swerve by the front guy and the second could easily take them both out. Saw it happen at cozumel in fact. The front guy's bike was jacked up and he road the sag wagon back to town.

Plus, public shaming is one of the most powerful weapons against doping (and cheating of any kind), and it adds exactly...round the one...$0.00 to the cost of an IM entry.

I never said CHEATING = LIFETIME BAN. That was you putting those words in my mouth thank you.

You asked me to define cheat and I clearly said it was PED's for the point of this discussion.

It was just unnecessary for him to bring it up. It is not ironic just his agenda. She doped in 2004, paid the price, served the penalty. He did not have to bring it up nor do you. Do you really believe no one deserves a second chance? Especially from 10 years ago? If so, pity your newborn twins for the life lessons you will bestow on them.

The advantages are largely unknown but you can safely make some assumptions;

Consistent training over years and years leads to a huge base and advanced speed and skill over your competitors right?

Well now put in those years on PEDs that allow you to train at an unnaturally high level for years, absorbing this higher level over your none doping competitors. Just stopping the epo doesnt mean a doper loses all their gains. They still put in time at a higher level that can't be taken away.

The part we don't fully know is does the body make PERMANENT adaptations to cell structure with long term epo /ped use?

Apples to oranges to drafting

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Post 7

"I personally believe that once you cheat in a sport you should not be allowed to complete in that sport ever again. "

You still haven't clarified, any PED?

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LA isn't allowed to race at ANYTHING but other past drug cheats are allowed to race, and win. Sure hope she had to do more than just pee in a cup!

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"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Sure. By that logic, drafting penalties should be at least as harsh as doping penalties then. Doping doesn't endanger anyone else.

Anyway, you guys would rather be outraged over a non-violent sporting infraction that someone did over 10 years ago and subsequently paid the penalty for. Oh well.

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Haters gonna hate.

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

I don't really have a dog in the fight regarding doping. I am just a rules guy. She served her penalty, and in my book can compete. That is up to people with more pull than me to decide if the science behind lifelong benefits of doping is means for increasing the ban. I just had an issue with saying that drafting poses no risk to anyone.

>LA isn't allowed to race at ANYTHING

LA was offered the same deal as everyone else. He turned it down. Case in point, Nina admitted to her EPO use. LA never admitted to anything. Until it was too late.

Also, he can race at lots of things. Just not anything under the WADA umbrella. I think he raced at some swimming meets recently?

I wasn't talking about you specifically. (In my original comment I meant to say doping rather than drafting, too lazy to edit that post)

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No worries. Quarrel on ST

No, us masters swimming didn't allow him to compete.

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>No, us masters swimming didn't allow him to compete.

OK, my bad. I clearly need to follow Lance more closely.

In case you've not been paying attention the 1st year ban is going to 4 years.

The rest of you need to get over your shit, bc it smells also.

It was 10 or 11 years ago, search the archives we've already discussed this when she won another race, maybe 2. Just go read that thread. Besides this isn't her first win since she's come back from her suspension. She's probably won 6-10 other races. Her talent level pre doping put her among the fastest 1-5 females at the time. it's not like she's come out of nowhere.

She served her time for her crime and is allowed to race. That's the rules of many sports including triathlon, don't like it find another sport.

Put her in a stronger field and she doesn't win.

There are other women's performances of the last 10 years that smell just as much as any of hers.

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I just happened to see it somewhere that he entered and then was denied entry after usa swimming (who is under wada) got wind of it and since us masters swimming is part of usa swimming, allowing lance to compete could put olympic eligibility in question. Probably wouldn't do any real damage, but my guess is they wanted to play it safe.

No idea where I saw that though.

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It's a forum: we brings things up. If you want to live in a bubble, stick to Lava magazine.

There is a huge difference between giving a second chance and ignoring relevant history.

Post 13

Quote:

She used a banned substance to win = CHEAT

IIRC, the only reason she got popped in Kona was she's not too sharp & she got nervous, shot another dose on Friday before the race. If she'd just coasted in with 3-4 days clearance like every other Euro in the race...

Is she still doping? Probably, but stoopid as she is, she's not stoopid enough to screw it up twice.

In other news, remember, doping may work, it may not, but drafting works every time it's tried.
"Chronic drafting is for people too skeerd to dope."

-bobo

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"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."

I love it when people tell me how nice dopers are...

Collectively ST was very supportive of the guy who wore the dopers suck tshirt at the awards ceremony a few weeks ago, maybe cause that guy was an asshole?

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

Please... for everyone's sake. Don't feed that troll. He'll keep coming back.

The woman is a deliberate cheater and should've been banned for life. The least the triathlon community can do is carefully scrutinize every result she has from now until her death.

Replying to thread in general.

Can we get a list of dopers we are supposed to hate? Because I'm confused. Lance we need to hate. Michi Weiss we need to hate. Lisa H again hate. But Nina Kraft we are cool with? Am I missing anyone?

I believe the point JasonInHalifax is trying to make is this:

Clearly you feel that out of all triathlon rules that exist, using banned substances are in a league of their own and deserve special penalties such as lifetime bans. Fair enough.

The question then becomes, what length of penalty is appropriate for each banned substance. I think he was legitimately asking you for your opinion.

Is any banned substance worthy of a lifetime ban? Should some be lifetime, while others are finite lengths? What about in-competition versus out-of-competition testing? Accidental ingestion versus deliberate? If you are caught with a substance in one sport, does the ban transfer to other sports?

There are many things to take into consideration, simply saying "banned subtances = cheating = lifetime ban" is pretty vague and I think he was just asking for details.

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my strava

Just watched the final minutes of Ironman Louisville. It was absolutely awesome watching Nina Kraft run up and down the finishers chute to help bring in the last finishers.
Wow. That's just good PR. Way to go Nina!!

Still not enough in my opinion.

When someone is a doper, and then does something that is out of the norm, a logical conclusion is that they are likely still doping.

I think doping should be a lifetime ban. I am too lazy to get into all the reasons why, but in my book once a doper, always a doper - with rare exceptions.

There are way too many great athletes that have never been caught for doping (and hopefully have never doped) for me to support or think at all positively about those that have doped.

If she is no longer doping then good for her, but at a minimum people should know about her doping past and make their own decision about her performance. I personally think that she should be allowed to compete, but not for a prize or a ranking.

Kevin Moats, but I've read you can hate him for drafting in addition to the other.

Have any of you people who pile on to the dopers ever played a serious team sport? I played soccer in college and it was extremely competitive and you cheat whenever you can to get an advantage on the field...get caught you serve your time and move on. I had dozens of yellow cards and a few red cards but i was able to get inside other teams heads and piss them off to the point where i had a serious advantage, am i allowed to stomp guys feet, no, but if the ref does not see it never happened. A family member played D1 football and the coach wanted him to put on 20 lbs one off season and said do what you need to do, he ran some cycles and boom he was back on the starting squad. That is how sports work, its a game and the people who take the most risks win. I am not supporting doping but i also don't care, take the risk and suffer the consequences if you are caught.


Edit:

I remember a conversation i had with my father ( nuro-radiologist/Full Prof) who argues it's stupid not to allow endurance athletes the use of EPO since they are naturally suppressing their EPO levels on the daily basis. He said the same for T therapy and a wide range of other hormones. This was in response to the TDF which in his opinion is putting such a huge stress on the body you should allow the riders the full medical spectrum of recovery aids. He just laughs when endurance sports are so closed to the idea of any medical advancement being used in the sport but all the new gear and technology is fine.

Its high time we had a system where a drugs cheat could be banned for life. Its mocking the very essence of sport that drugs cheat come back and win.

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Agree with many posts that it's toughh to look past the doping infringement. I LOVE the fact triathletes call out dopers who win after returning to competition Nd that slowtwitch does too. As many others no doubt do, I follow cycling and after the pain it's gone through, I'd rather be hard line against dopers.

This is a really good point. However, I think the flaw in this logic is that these substances aren't banned because of their inherent benefits, but because they are dangerous, right? That's a question, not an assertion. I don't know enough about PEDs to argue either side...

Dangerous to who? If someone else wants to damage their body, who cares.

Now, it is proven contact sports are dangerous for concussions. Under the dangerous logic, we really should stop all these sports since it IS proven it can mess your brain up.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

We limit many things in society that are dangerous to ourselves so I don't see why taking drugs in sports should be exempt.

One big problem with allowing PEDs in sport is where to draw the line when it comes to youth and junior sports. How far down in age would it be allowed and how would you regulate it? Kids seeing their sport heroes openly and freely take drugs to perform would at some point want to do the same, and to legitimize a drug taking culture amongst the youth will probably not lead to good things for society at large either. As someone said earlier, public shaming is a big deterrent to these things so openly showing it's not accepted is important imo.

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Speaking of drug cheats, does anyone on this board know what happened to Rebecca Keat's case. She was banned for 2 years after testing positive but later she tried to sue hammer saying that it was their product that caused the positive test? Nothing public was made known and my guess is that there was a settlement

Somehow people overlooked her incident and she seemed to be able to compete without too much hassle from the general public. Same can be said for that Dutch guy, can;t remember his name now but he has retired?

Nina, Michael Weiss and Liza H seemed to be bearing the heat from everyone else...

I do support longer term bans for drug cheats but i just noticed some get away with it from the public while others don;t for whatever reason?

That's pretty much the gist of what I was getting at. PED = cheating = lifetime ban is a stupidly simplistic way of looking at it, when there are other modes of cheating that have as much or greater benefit to the cheater, are potentially just as harmful to the cheater or the one being cheated, but no-one is calling for lifetime bans for drafters. And yeah, there are plenty of serial drafters who benefit from it every time they race... Just that PED's seem to be this extra special super taboo form of cheating.

Not to mention all of the different things that one could test positive for. If I take a Sudafed, then I don't think anyone here would reasonably say that I should be banned for life. What if I have a life-threatening medical condition which, for a short while, requires that I take EPO as part of the treatment? Should I be banned for life from a sport I enjoy if my health recovers? What if I drank too much coffee in the 1980's and tested positive for caffeine back then, should that be a lifetime ban even though caffeine is no longer on the list?

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Why are you making these stupid comparisons?

I think 4 years is enough initially and I will explain why. Second round should be lifetime.

There are a many of reasons I can live with 4 years. First of all, kids are not that smart about the ways of the world and will do anything a coach tells them to do to make it "big time". I can see a young kid being shoved the dope by his coach saying this is the final step that gets him there and its safe, everyone is doing it and he should too. Parents are equally stupid and if coach tells a kid that this is the ticket to the NFL or superstar sprinting, then next thing you know the kid is on it. As a coach of teenagers, some of them fairly elite athletes, these kids will do whatever I say. For example in the junior races in the Coupe de France Nordic skiing, the kids are not allowed to use the high florocarbon waxes which make the racing like night and day, but can be $200 per application. Then it becomes "up the coach" if his kids are ski "doped" or not. The kids will use whatever the coach says. I am not sure how they exactly police that in France. Here in Canada and the US, we allow them to use the best wax they can get. Go to the high school races, and the kids have exactly the same stuff at they have in the Olympics.

If we recall, Olympic 100m sprint finalist Ray Stewart who later became a Jamaican coach was banned for from coaching for trafficking steroids, "Hey kids, I was the first Jamaican under 10 seconds, this is how it is still done....get on the program". There are a lot of vulnerable teens and young adults who end up doping this way. They are under the spell of their coach.

They deserve a ban, but I think 4 years is enough to learn the lesson.

For adult athletes, who dope, 4 years is an entire Olympic cycle, and far enough away from your last palmares, that you likely won't get a protour contract, you won't get a Barclay's Premier League contract (if FIFA was actually serious...let's see the first FIFA EPO/Steroid/HGH bust....remember the infamous championship Juventus squads winning all over Europe at the peak of the Bjarne Riis EPO era...) and you won't get to start a triathlon as a pro for at least a year without re earning your pro license. For older athletes, it can kill a career. Women's triathlon is "so much less competitive in depth and there are so many IM races, that you can win one when 46, but that won't happen on the men's side. Also women pro triathletes are generally 30-50 lbs lighter than the men, and run slower, which prolongs their careers. The larger men (you need to be bigger to compete as a pro man to be fast enough on the bike) break down a lot earlier than women. For a pro male caught doping at 34, he's only looking at coming back at 39. His career is going to be over and will need to find a way to at least generate revenue for 5 years.

I've met Nina personally several times, and been in the same races shortly after her ban was lifted. She returned much slower than her former "Nina the Machina" self. I am inclined to believe that she is truly sorry for her time doping, is racing clean, racing much slower and frankly not competitive on the global scale. If Mirinda Carfrae showed up at Louisville, and Nina did this exact same performance we would have zero discussion because she would be way off the back. Just because no one fast showed up, now we're having "the doper won" discussion. Last year, Nina was 7 minutes slower, was 4th, and essentially had the same performance on much less current. No one said anything. The hate is on right now because no one faster than her showed up.

I feel there is more overall hate for her here than Natasha Badmann probably has today.

Well said.

I would modify that slightly though, in that second bust should, IMO, be lifetime from "pro" ranks, maybe 6-8 years from Age Group. If they want to come back and just race for fun in their later years, I don't have a problem with that. AG competition is ultimately just about personal acheivement anyway (IMO), there's no real money or glory in it, so why not?

It's like the Lance thing referred to above, he isn't even allowed to compete at a masters meet. I bet a lot of folks would have liked to have seen where they stack up against him, I know I would have.

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This is an interesting statement by your father (an outside) but the exact reasoning why protour cyclists have been doped since 1905...the event places insane demands on them that are not natural. I remember when the FIS Tour de Ski was set up and and thinking "these stages are a joke....I could get all my 14 year olds, to do every stage one the same day and they would get through fine". And I think that was exactly the point. Not that skiers are not doped but they set up the racing so it was possible to do it clean and recover and race the next day.

My stance against PEDs has nothing to do with safety. It is simply a variable that I feel should be controlled when people play sport. Sport is, in large part, about comparing oneself to everyone else. There are a ton of things that make one better than another, but we have generally decided that drugs should not be one of them. Accordingly, if someone does not want to play by those rules they should not get the chance to compete.

I have no problem with increasing bans for drafters. I think drafters suck. The problem is that it is a lot more likely that someone drafts by mistake than someone takes PEDs by mistake. It is almost impossible to inadvertently test positive for caffeine.

So if you take stuff like HGH, EPO, ACAIR, steriods, testosterone, masking agents, or fail a bio passport you get a lifetime ban. We do we want people that would go to such lengths in sport?

why lifetime for first offence though? See dev's post, he pretty much echos my thoughts.

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"He just laughs when endurance sports are so closed to the" idea of any medical advancement being used in the sport but all the new gear and technology is fine"

I kind of like the doping angle in sport. What makes the greats great is their willingness to do ANYTHING to win.....new gear, technology, training harder or drugs. Beat down Test, move to EPO and hGH.....Beat down on EPO move to Gene Therapy. Like it or not drugs are here to stay.....

Glad you don't coach kids....hopefully.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

There is merit to his argument. However, for me, doping is serious enough, and easy enough to get away with, that one shouldn't get a free pass because they were young or dumb.

As I said before, there are so many excellent and clean athletes that follow the rules, that I feel ok being merciless with the ones that don't.

Well, no-one is advocating that. 4 years out of competition is a REALLY long time...

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You are still stuck in the fantasy that the authorities have a pretty foolproof method for catching cheaters. False positives are possible as well as sabotage and innocent mistakes. Plus the stricter the penalties and the fewer people cheat, the greater the benefit to those who do it and get away with it. Life time bans don't solve the problem.

It was just unnecessary for him to bring it up. It is not ironic just his agenda. She doped in 2004, paid the price, served the penalty. He did not have to bring it up nor do you. Do you really believe no one deserves a second chance? Especially from 10 years ago? If so, pity your newborn twins for the life lessons you will bestow on them…

Really, you are going to bring my kids into your very weak argument? Like i thought, you do not have the irony gene, and no where do I or Timothy say she should not have been allowed to race. But go ahead and make up some more shit that we did not say to brown nose your way into Nina's heart. And for the record, teaching my kids lessons in not cheating the first place, and accepting responsibility for your actions in life, will be life lessons that I will be proud to show them.

See that is where he disagrees and suggests these drugs in fact will make athletes healthier than their current state. Assuming well trained doctors administer proper doses the physicians can correct any imbalances and help the athletes recover. All of these drugs are used daily in the medical field but there seems to be a stigma attached with PED's, i think in part due to the bodybuilding community which has had so many deaths recently, but they are also a great example of abusing drugs to the point of serious side effects. Remember when the Fed's had their clean up baseball thing years ago and brought all the players to congress and had them under oath? During those "trials" or "truth conferences" they brought in several physicians who all stated that steroids are seriously dangerous for athletes but interestingly none of those physicians had published a single paper demonstrating that to be true. Those proceedings caused a backlash in the medical community who argued the exact opposite that there is no conclusive evidence that steroids use in low to moderate doses causes health risks (bodybuilders who do 20 times a normal level do not count). Yes their are potential side effects to any drug but as with moderation the chance for side effects is quite low.

A little off point, but your right re:the lance thing. I never really bought bout it prior o your post, but racing LA at a Masters meet would be fascinating.

From a personal perspective I was faster than he was in HS, but he has had a lifetime of the highest level training, has unliimited time to train currently and is, regardless of his chemical enhancements, a world class athlete. I bet a lot of old swimmers would crawl back in th pool if they knew that challenge was out there.

Having played sports "seriously", I feel totally qualified to let you know that most people you played against viewed you as standing on the fault line between insufferable and dangerous, and that what you describe isn't how sports "work".

Just because someone isn't going to punish you, doesn't mean it's alright to lie, cheat, steal, or engage in any other behavior that you couldn't engage in if a camera was focused on exclusively on you.

I know Nina a little bit, I would not say very well though. I've trained with her a couple times, rode/ran from her house with a couple other folks, swam in her pool after the workout. This is a lady that just lives/eats/sleeps triathlon. She lives a modest life and from everything I could see, this is the ONLY thing she knows. She coaches some athletes, and she is constantly coaching whomever she is working out with, regardless of whether or not you are paying her. She has an unbelievable amount of respect for the sport AND the current crop of younger/faster female IM athletes. She has no delusions (or reason) to think that she is going to compete with the top tier IM athletes on the biggest stage, but she loves the Louisville race and just like any of us, has to look for new ways to motivate. I think it is dangerous to extrapolate behavior over the masses since we are all wired different, she has WAY more to lose that to gain by risking doping at this stage and I say there is no way she would take the risk. I was tracking her and rooting for her to pull this off and was very happy for her to get the win. Good on you Ninja!

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John

Qoute...."You cheat whenever you can to get an advantage"
So you cheat in business? When you sell a car you fuck your nieghbor? Cheat to get what you want from your wife (lie). Cheat in school to get ahead(great for your kids). When by principle if you live that way on the field you dont justify it in all other walks of life. ......Sp you admit you have no problem drafting to get a kona spot over your competitor? You do not have a problem if someone drafts to get your spot if they are not caight? Why have any rules?

I'm kind of scratching my head over this as well. Definitely some inconsistency to how this board views doping. Lance and Michi were basically nailed to a cross and told they should never race again, but Nina "served her time", so it's all good? Didn't Michi serve his time too? It didn't seem to matter before. What makes Nina different?

Triathlon is a young enough sport that cheating hasn't become ingrained like it has in the "serious" team sports that you mention. I think that was part of the appeal to a lot of us who had played team sports before we got into triathlon.

Hopefully you didn't bring that attitude into triathlon and have found that you can enjoy the sport without cheating whenever you can get away with it. If not, please go back to playing soccer. Thanks!

Lance and Michi were basically nailed to a cross and told they should never race again

I disagree with that too.... I don't know the Weiss scenario, but in Lance's case, he was demonstrated to have doped over an extended period of time, and there was a lot of ancilliary stuff too. He shouldn't be allowed to race as a pro again, but if he wants to serve his time and then come back as an AG'er at 50, why not?

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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She was a doper. I would ban any doper for life. I give no room. She does not count, she is a fraud.

My posts consistently say that it is really easy to get away with being a doper. Can you point me to a list of false positives and proven "innocent" mistakes? Not catching dopers is many orders of magnitude a larger problem than catching innocent athletes.

As for your second argument, that is an odd approach - let's make the penalties light so that more people will cheat, but at least it will level the playing field.

http://www.insidethegames.biz/...false-positives-wada

http://velonews.competitor.com/...alse-positive_269632

There have been others over the years, including in triathlon (a european male IM athlete who's name escapes me now)

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Touche, I suppose. I am not trying to cavalier about banning people for life. I just am so cynical about the prevalence of doping in sport and I see it as a pretty easy line to avoid crossing and therefor I don't have any time for people who choose to dope.

I don't what the perfect answer is, but a 2 or 4 year or ban isn't doing much to stop people from continuing to dope. The bio passport may help in the long run and hopefully this debate will become moot. But I doubt it.

Shouldn't be racing. Lifetime ban and that would be that.

I think the problem with the bans is that there isn't a different ban for heavyweight doping like EPO, and say, taking the wrong cold medicine. Also the list is the same across sports, so for example the drug used to lower your heart rate for shooting or archery, would not be the same one that a 100m sprinter wants to take. But the list is universal. In any case, all drugs will get the 4 years.

Imagine if for speeding at 101 kph in a 100 zone you get the same ticket at 160 kph. 160kph is not really 'accidental' speeding, whereas 101 kph can be. it could just be a result of your tire inflation being off and your speedometer and the policeman's radar gun disagreeing with one another, but he could technically still ticket you if he wants to hit his monthly quota.

So while we look at it from a triathlon angle and it is clear what heavyweight doping is to us, as a WADA signatory, ITU as well as WTC have to apply the entire list, including if you or I take the wrong cold medicine before say Kona or 70.3 WC's or if we eat a poppy seed bagel and test positive for Heroine. I really don't want to be banned from triathlon for 2 years forget about 4 years if I eat that bagel, but technically I can be. The list makes zero differentiation between Kevin Moats taking steroids and someone eating the aforementioned bagel.

Curious why there isn't scientific evidence to prove this out after all these years. Has there not been studies done?

I really want what you are smoking (or drinking)

WRONG. I realize this is the Internet and all, but you need to be way better informed than this if you're going to have an opinion.

NostalgiaAde. Customized formulas coming soon.

I had just finished a glass before I wrote that comment. It made me totally forget about the problems with wheel sucking, course cutting, testosterone supplementation and tainted nutritional supplements in our sport. Sorry about that.

You need to teach them forgiveness too Mark.

Again, no need for you and Tim to continue to bring up her past. By continuing to grind this axe you just look silly in the end. She did something wrong and served the punishment. This is no different from any one else who makes a bad mistake. She is human and made a bad choice but you and Tim don't have to keep bringing it up.

I think Dev said it best: I've met Nina personally several times, and been in the same races shortly after her ban was lifted. She returned much slower than her former "Nina the Machina" self. I am inclined to believe that she is truly sorry for her time doping, is racing clean, racing much slower and frankly not competitive on the global scale. If Mirinda Carfrae showed up at Louisville, and Nina did this exact same performance we would have zero discussion because she would be way off the back. Just because no one fast showed up, now we're having "the doper won" discussion. Last year, Nina was 7 minutes slower, was 4th, and essentially had the same performance on much less current. No one said anything. The hate is on right now because no one faster than her showed up.

well, there are currently different levels of bans. eg. http://www.swimvortex.com/...-1-month-doping-ban/

This is exactly why the current system is pretty good, and supporting a lifetime "dope and your out" policy is kinda silly. It doesn't allow for any recognition of different degrees of infraction, and it doesn't allow for the fact that sometimes people do stupid things, and doing a stupid buit harmless thing shouldn't prevent you from doing a healthy activity that you love for the rest of your life. People change.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

 

That is the difference, sport is an unique arena that draws out our base desires, i think very type A men can relate to this and they key is to know where to draw the line. I have never and will never cheat on taxes, at work, school, family etc, that is a moral realm. Cheating in sports is an ethical issue in my opinion and i really just don't care what people think. I remember years ago in a history class on spartan culture learning about their military training. One of the assumptions is that the boys were not given enough food or water and it was assumed they would forage/steal for their food/water. If they were caught they would suffer sever penalty. That is something that was ingrained early on in the military for me as well, in fact first night of bootcamp they tell us to clean the compartment before 0430 but also not leave our bunks, so we set up a special watch that night to avoid the roving watches and clean the entire compartment. We were braking the rules but the system is set up that way. Same thing later on it some more difficult training where we would bring extra food that was not allowed, "steal" food from chow, at night not actually jumping all the way in the ocean just dipping our hats to make us look wet, these are all example of issues which one can maintain integrity while still breaking the rules. It's the same in soccer, slightly off sides, pushing off a defender to field a cross, holding, nice friendly accidental foot stomp during a free kick etc are all against the rules but many times the team who wins is the one who pushes the rules the most. There is a penalty system for a reason and no an outright ban in soccer for an illegal tackle.

A serious question: If an athlete uses PEDs for a couple of years and makes significant gains, then stops using the PEDs but continues to train at a high level. Do the gains made while using the PEDs carry over or do the gains vanish over time?

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So i guess every guy who holds in the NFL is just a scumbag and should be banned? Man we might as well just go ahead and ban Ronaldo since he has made hundreds of illegal tackles over his career. While were at it we might as well just send home every NHL player who has ever been to the penalty box for hooking/tripping. I loved pushing the edges in team sports and that is what drives successful people in sports, like it or not, nice guys do not win for very long.

or is the athlete worse off than they would have been had they never used them in the first place, due to suppressed natural hormone production?

I suspect that the answer is highly individual, depending on what was taken, in what dose, over what period, and the individuals own physiology.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Do you draft in triathlon?

I think what you are missing is that there is a line. Did you bite an opponent? How about carry a knife in your sock and stab them? I realize that is overboard but I am trying to make a point. Every sport has rules that are bent or broken while playing but there are also things you just don't do...that's the line. For many people the line in triathlon/endurance sports is doping.

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______________________________________________

I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

No, but i also have switched to road racing so its less applicable to me now.

If you believe it's OK to cheat whenever you can get an advantage on the field, then why are you not supporting doping?

The thing I find unfortunate and I contributed to this is that this thread has over 100 posts while the 'Great Job Thomas Gerlach!' thread has 12 posts and is on page two now. The guy posts around here, was 16 seconds off winning and here we are focused on this.

That may be how "sports works", but the point is that many people don't agree that this is how sports are meant to work. Those of us who believe that doping is to be discouraged, even despite knowing that it happens all the time, would prefer to call for harsher penalties and better enforcement than to just give up and let the dopers win.

>the event places insane demands on them that are not natural. I remember when the FIS Tour de Ski was set up and and thinking "these stages are a joke

I disagree with that line of reasoning. The event is not insanely demanding. It's defeating the competition that is insanely demanding. Usain Bolt running 9.58 is no less "insane" than riding to 1st in the TdF. And I'd speculate that doping has roughly equivalent benefit to both events (different kinds of doping, maybe, but doping nonetheless). So I find it hard to accept that Grand Tours are provide some kind of unique incentive to dope. The only unique incentive is that they're the most lucrative races, so they attract the best competition.

>so it was possible to do it clean and recover and race the next day.

It is completely possible to race every stage of the TdF clean and recover and race the next day. Plenty of guys do it. They just don't typically win.

take your common sense get the hell out of here! this kool-aid is delicious.

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

Haters gonna hate!
Congrats on the huge win Nina & TimJ. Enjoy it!
All I know is we are having a big ass party for them when they get back to Clermont!!
Sorry to interrupt.
Argue on guys; I hope you angry guys eventually find happiness.. Ha!

ha! I'm giving you a 8/10 for trolling, a 2/10 for honesty, a -1/10 for grammar, and -5/10 for your vaguely misogynistic generalization of people (where you assume that since you're a scummy human (at your core) everyone else must be too).

You're net positive, but still failing... try harder!

I'm surprised you try to polarize this discussion into camps of love and hate. I don't see any hate at all here--I read discussions about when someone should be allowed to race again after doping, and whether or not their doping is fair game for discussion after they're reinstated. No one is calling her a bad person.

Surely we haven't devolved to a point where we label someone a hater simply for disagreeing with an opinion?

Regardless, here's the nuance in the issue: the fans and sponsors aren't bound by the governing body's or RD's rules about reinstatement. A doper can be reinstated after 2-4 years, but it doesn't mean the fans need to follow suit and accept them back into the sport. We can bring up their past doping, and remind folks there are hundreds of outstanding pro's who have never been caught doping.

And we can remind sponsors of that.

In other words: a convicted doper may be able to start racing again, and collect prize money. But if the fans are upset enough about it, sponsors will continue to shy away from her. And that seems like a perfectly legitimate fair-market system.

Where is Sam Gyde when you need him?

I'd LOVE to see that on the podium.....

Perhaps he was Nina's waiter.

Then earn yourself a spot on the podium, get a Sharpie and a shirt.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

I'm not female and a pro. I think the others are too nice to do that.

The volunteers might have had some thoughts on it.

Like. ;-) golf claps.

Well some will say yes but that's based more on preconceived ideas. I've not seen anything where scientific research proves or disproves this. Maybe someone could reference to a source?

Doping is off the field and not equal access and or constrained by ones monetary situation.

Where the hell you gonna get the control group? Have non dopers drop out of the sport at the same time a doper is busted to use. There is evidence that as you put your body through training stress there are gains. If by doping you put in more training stress there is then more gains. Through years of training mitochondria, cappelaries and other physical adaptions occur. You dispute this. sheesh dude, use your head

POTD. And you saved someone $3200 at the shrink's office.

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

yea, you can keep saying that but it doesn't necessarily mean its true. people used to think the world was flat and that if you sailed far enough you would fall off the earth. people used their heads and thought the sun revolved around the earth. sheesh, dud

scientist control test for a lot of things. if there was a will there would be a way.

So no proof of increased traing stress causing more adaption......your examples.are a fail. Good day

Because not everyone can afford to cheat equally So it would be unfair. Got it

"Willeatforfood" nailed it

listen, all I'm saying is just show some proof not just rhetoric
. some people want a lifetime ban so it would seem logical that there would be scientific reasons beyond we "think" epo results in a lifetime of enhanced performance. a reasonable person would agree

Isn't this how people win races: no one faster shows up?
I think drug cheats should have more than a year or two penalty. A mere slap.

I don't begrudge Nina racing or even winning. I just can't get excited about it regardless if she is the oldest winner blah blah blah.

And she may very well have been sorry, ashamed and embarrassed by her premeditated cheating and stealing of Natasha title however this is the price she pays.

I would think that if she was really that ashamed that she would NEVER show her face at an endurance event. But hey, that's me.

Man you people are way to easy to Troll, this thread made my afternoon :)

Not to divert the thread but I met TimJ when we lived in Clermont back in 2005. Super class guy. Glad to see he's aged about 5 minutes in the last nine years.

ice try on the recovery. By your replies I think you just realized you f"d up

My primary post on this thread was concerning my fathers view on the use of PED's (he is a physician) and i think his perspective is interesting and one sports should seriously consider in the future. I am not taking anything back at all, i will always support the idea that if you are not cheating you are not trying in sports, but the lines have to be well drawn.

Let's get back to why i do not support doping/no tolerance at all but i don't care about drafting. It is fairly simple, anybody can draft on the "playing field" where the judges are watching and trying to catch drafters. PED's in my opinion cross a line from pushing the limits of the game to over the line. Similar to my soccer analogy i have no problem giving a guy a slight jab in the side during a corner kick but doing a late tackle into somebody's knee with the intent to injure has crossed the line. I am going after another individual in an extremely unfair manner. Doping in my opinion attacks a fellow competitor in an unfair matter as the ability to catch the doper and enforce the rule is compromised. In other words we cannot observe the doper on the playing field and say, "wow he is clearly doping, lets penalize him." We can easily observe drafting, center line infractions, sneaking on fins, wetsuit in non wetsuit swim, etc. Same with soccer, the Ref's can easily notice dangerous challenges, off sides, flopping, holding, and a myriad of other offenses.

One final example of my point. A road race last month came down to the final lap which featured a long uphill finish. The center line rule was in effect and everybody had observed the rule..until the last last. Coming into the finish one team was blocking the front to get position for the final climb, i was stuck behind and decided it was not worth risking being DQ'ed, another team of 3-4 guys decided to break the center line and get ahead of the blocking team, these guys ended up on the podium and were never DQ'ed. They took a risk and it paid off, it could have also gone the other way. Sure everybody was talking about it but in the end they won and nobody had an issue, most people were mad they did not just hop the center line at the end. This is an example of pushing the line but it is a clearly observable infraction and one that can be easily enforced. Now let's say these guys were doping, we would have no way of knowing because they don't test cat 3/4's at local races and if they did it could still be easily beaten or worked around. It is underhanded and cannot be countered during an event. I can send elbows to a defender all game and if he has enough of it he can send some back my way, it gets bad we fight and both get red cards, sit out the next game and back to normal. Doping cannot be observed by the competitors on the field, it cannot be easily countered on the field, individuals cannot confront it since you have to have a drug test, and many times the test's are foiled. This might be a bit rambling but i just spent the whole day working on chemistry and am not the most cogent.

I am a nice guy, where do I get my EPO?

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Hey I am nicer than you so I want some Clenbuterol as well, and will everyone turn a blind eye to the drafting I am planning on doing because that is apparently legal cheating now and I expect to be able to cheat as much as anybody else.


F*£K the guys who I am cheating out of a podium spot who played by the rules, they are just so stupid!!!!!! Why would anyone need ruled FFS.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

You have questionable morals. I'm glad I don't have to do business with you.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Personally, I value being a kind/nice person over being a great athlete. I really don’t care how great of an athlete some punk/thug is. I don't view taking PEDs so much a moral question, as a health question. I'm 54 and if I was absolutely sure testosterone was safe, I would consider taking it – not to perform better in tris, but to feel younger and better across the board.

"don't like it find another sport." REALLY?? As a coach, a regular contributor to this forum and what I would regard as a representative of this sport, I'm surprised by the tone of your comments. This is our sport and those of us that would like to see a life time ban for those that use PEDs have every right to post our views on a public forum just as you have a right to disagree in an intelligent manner. Many of us feel those who choose to use PEDs have no place in our sport....EVER!!

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I am assuming you do not do business with anybody who has gotten a speeding ticket as well? People on a daily basis push the line for what is acceptable while driving, is that immoral? I would suggest never doing business with any sports player in general then if pushing the line is "immoral".

You speeding analogy only applies if after that speeding ticket, you were now able to drive 1mph faster than before without getting a ticket than your were beforehand. So while you received punishment, the benefits of breaking the rules will continue to benefit you for the rest of your life.

Using drugs isn't like speeding. Its' like using the shoulder as a lane, passing between cars, running red lights and just saying "f*** you " to the rules in general. 99.9% of the time, speeding does no harm to the other motorists around you. The greatest risk is when slower drivers don;t yield the left lane, and when speeding drivers become aggressive when passing. Speeding itself is not inherently hazardous. Speed limits are a little arbitrary at times and in a perfect world they would change based on conditions (curves, nighttime, visibility, wind, traffic levels, etc.)

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Please read my previous posts, i am not arguing for drug use at all, i was simply saying in team sports people push the rules all the time to get an advantage. That is all, i carefully laid out why i do not support doping at all.

But if you knew there were few or no marshalls on the bike course, you'd be sucking every wheel you could find?

What you advocated was not "pushing the line." You Advocared blatant cheating, as long as you are willing to pay the price.

You are OK breaking the rules if it suits you and gives you an advantage. You are perfectly comfortable cheating, as long as others have the same "opportunity" to cheat.

You can engage in all the relativism you want, but the reality is that you are a cheat and have questionable morals.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Qoute " i will always support the idea that if you are not cheating you are not trying in sports, but the lines have to be well drawn." closed qoute

Who is to decide where the line is well drawn? If you agree to a line, then would not one be ok to lie that they agree to that line so they can cheat and cross that line?

You can use all the examples you want to justify YOUR cheating. And please, spare me with the bullshit that you will cheat to win the prize (or prize money) but will play fair in othe competitive ares of life.
So you say its ok to cheat and not ok to dope, well who gives a shit what YOU belive, they are both against the rules. So you get to choose where the line is? Sport has rules and penalties to support ethical behaviour, not to cheat to win. Though some will use the penalties as a strategy that is not what they were designed for. Rules or laws in life are the same for society. What the heck, I am willing to satisfy my anger to do 20 to life so its woth it to kill someone, you think that somehow justifies my action?
You go on and on in your posts of your examples to justify to yourself you are ok with cheating. Fine. At least you admit openly to what you are. A cheat

Sorry we just don't this to be true.

http://velonews.competitor.com/...ncing-drugs_317590/1

That is the point Mike doesn't get....the lines are drawn already. Those lines are called "the rules."

You don't get to pick and choose which ones you adhere to on whatever sliding moral scale you have. Break the rules and you are cheating.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

There I fixed it for you. Cheating bastards.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

M

I have no idea what Nina has done to you personally that makes you feel this way and I hope you are not left wondering what shoes, clothes, nutritional product, recoverevey product etc. that you should use.

Her sponsorship with DeSoto involves no money and she is very happy to be able to work with people that want to improve the sport and their product. If it means so much to you then I will either purchase Nina's clothing from them at full RRP or even yours for you! (contract pending of course).

Send me a private message if you would like to discuss further.

Best

Tim

Answer this question: Holding is against the rules in football, if a player holds and receives a penalty i am assuming they are now a cheat and cannot be trusted in any other area of life correct? They now must clearly have questionable morals according to your line of reasoning.

Yeah,mi figured you would come back with a response similar to that.

I have zero interest in discussing every potential rules infraction across multiple sports with you.

The reality is that there are sports where rules violations are simply part of June sport....for any number of reasons. Triathlon isn't one of them, nor is cycling.

Your posts speak for themselves.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

then admit she served her penalty and move on.....

Who, me?

I'm not criticizing her.....she did her time. I have no problem with her racing.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Thanks Power13, sorry their seems to beome negative BS

they can't or won't move on...Bashing those who doped +10 years ago is their event, the
only event they do well most likely. There is no moving on for some.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Cant wait for the Ninja party!
Should be a fantastic time.
Clermont is the #ChoiceofChampions!
Good times good people good friends.

You can't unring that bell. Doping is bullshit and as far as I am concerned you get one chance in a sport. To compare it to "holding" in a sport is completely ludicrous.

Yes KUDOS to Nina! She earned it, she worked VERY hard to win this race with all her heart. I admire Nina and consider her one of the kindest persons (to a fault) that I have every met..

If only all you haters on here had just a second to sit with her, talk with her, you would never say these hateful things about her.. to her face. I would love to see each and everyone of you who bash her, confess on here, the mistakes you have made in life and display them all on here, for everyone to make hateful comments towards you... for your mistakes. You sicken me. We all make mistakes, we pay the price, sentence served..the end. No one is perfect.

Life is too short, let it go. Nothing she does affects you. Go back to your lives. Look in the mirror.

I also love Desoto, I love that they support her and will always buy their products. Anything Nina tries and supports is good for me and I'm proud to support those companies as well.

I wish I could be in Clermont for the big party..she deserves it and so much more!!!!

M
You haven't messaged me so I guess you are not interested in my offer.
I agree with you more than most but unfortunately this is sport and sometimes the difference between second and winning is something extra, the means and method behind Nina's cheating was testament to her amateur approach and use, she never denied using a PED and admitted it after the A sample came back positive, no denial, no arguments, no lies to you/ friends or family 10 years ago.
I personally have never cheated in a race, taken a PED, cut a swim buoy, never drafted (despite being frustrated doing IMFL and Gulf Coast), thrown a GU wrapper or water bottle outside of the drop zone, cut a course or even received a penalty or warning in any fashion in my life. Can you or the other witch hunters say the same?
When I first came to the US I was amazed and intimidated at how jacked everyone looked and 'still find it hard to believe that their is a single player in Football, Basketball or Baseball that has always been clean. I know that steroids etc. are widely available in most high schools and anyone with a chance of a scholarship to college is under pressure to use them (yes believe it or not these people are amongst us or possibly even our children). Nina didn't use these and was always the small skinny kid in the pool that had to work harder than the other girls, she has an enlarged heart which is her genetic gift or burden. We as a nation (yes I am an American now) supported Lance in the biggest cover up of the use of PEDs, smirking at the French with our he's never tested positive attitude knowing full well that it was a dirty sport, likewise we also competed and even won the cold war era in sports supporting our athletes with whatever technology and drugs we could get away with. Even at the training center in Colorado they continue using whatever means possible to enhance our athletes, some of which I would say are unethical even if legal.
Ultimately I hope our sport is better for the mistakes that we all have made along the way and will continue to improve.
I am a proud American and yes I am proud of my wife for her achievements in life and in Louisville!
Mr.Carlson set the tone for this thread with his article which is obviously and unfortunately supported by Dan.

Thanks for your thoughtful response and I appreciate your offer. I can absolutely say the same about not cheating in a race. When I drop a wrapper/bottle on the course when on my bike, I stop and pick it up. But those little things aren't comparable to people who take PEDS. I consider that a breach of trust to the sport. As a professional in the sport, (in my opinion) you should be held to a higher standard than the every day weekend warrior since you are more "out there" for people to see. When a pro gets popped for PED use, it hurts everyone and to me that trust is shattered. The trust I have that a pro will come to the line racing clean to compete against other pros racing clean. Am I naive enough to truly believe that all the pros are currently clean? Not on your life. I am sure there are cheaters right now that haven't been caught.
I have nothing personal against your wife. She could be a lovely person. My initial issue was with the fact that DeSoto seemed to be partnering with someone who i don't believe should even be in the sport (I believe dopers should be a one and done in that sport). And because of their association with a known PED user, I was going to rethink my support of that brand. I would do the same thing with Lance (no longer support Honey Stingers either which kills me as I loved that product).
By the way, my gut tells me that the PED use in the pros pales in comparison to what is going on in the amateur ranks.

> My initial issue was with the fact that DeSoto seemed to be partnering with someone who i don't believe should even be in the sport (I believe dopers should be a one and done in that sport)

I'm with you on the personal DeSoto boycott. There is no "trial period" for use of EPO in professional triathlon.

M
I completely agree with your last statement! Please continue to use the products you like and are comfortable with, as we all know they are hard to find. Nina is a previous offender of which is a historical fact, but to say she is a known user is both unfair and just not true. No need to be a fan and of course you are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, we are all better without animosity in our hearts. If we ever meet I would be happy to shake your hand for racing honest, no need to even acknowledge my wife if she is there but please don't be a dick to her either.
Sincerely
Tim

trail
Throwing out or boycotting products from companies that have ever supported Nina or anyone else that has ever tested positive is somewhat impossible and just plain stupid but that is obviously your choice. If you would like to send me a list of all of your gear or products then I will help enlighten you. I am sure you threw away anything with a Nike logo too!

I have not cheated in Triathlon in my 30 years in the sport. But I have done some real stupid things and made bad/wrong decisions in the other parts of my life. I have always felt if someone was truly remorseful, that they should be given a second chance. Mainly because a second chance was given to me. It is easy to justify things in the moment but then you look back and realize how stupid and wrong it was. I wore DeSoto running shorts this morning and will be in DeSoto tri shorts tomorrow. Wonder how many people were worried about DeSoto clothing last Friday/

The issue is the recent/continued support. Not supporters who were supporting the athlete at that time.

If I implied that I believe she is still doping, I apologize (I don't think I did that though). I have no idea what your wife is up to but I didn't mean to imply she is currently doping. Just going on past transgressions.
Mark

 
>Throwing out or boycotting products from companies that have ever supported Nina or anyone else that has ever tested positive is somewhat impossible and just plain stupid but that is obviously your choice. If you would like to send me a list of all of your >gear or products then I will help enlighten you. I am sure you threw away anything with a Nike logo too!

No Nike from me since about '95. And Trek and Oakley. DZ Nuts. It's so hard to keep The List up-do-date, and I'm certainly not perfect about it.

It's not personal. It's just a choice to not reward corporate decisions to promote athletes who have seriously undermined clean competition.

I agree it's kind of silly, though I'd stop short of "stupid." I might just be depriving myself of good products. But as I've written above, I think public shaming is the most cost-effective anti-doping mechanism there is.

I also agree with the rules. I agree that Nina should be allowed to race, and to win. But the rules don't govern public response to her and her sponsors.

So, based on your idea if you get caught drafting (cheating) you should be banned for life? Hmm so for example Leanda Cave served a penalty for cheating (drafing in Hawaii) so she should be banned.... cool...

trail
'Just interested, what sports do you watch on TV? Have you ever cheated at anything? What products do you actually use?

I have a sincere question to you and others who think we should all "move on". And it relates not to the punitive effects on the doper, but to the deterrent effects on young athletes.

Do you believe that a 20-year old aspiring pro athlete is deterred by a 2 (or even 4) year ban? They all know that pretty much nobody is winning substantial money at that age. So why not take the risk of EPO, and if caught, serve the 4 years and then start competing again at age 24?

But if they know that--if caught--they will get no fan support and virtually no sponsor support for the rest of their career, no matter how many races they win--is that a sufficient deterrent to prevent doping?

I'm honestly puzzled by the calls of "haters" in this thread. I've seen nobody say that Nina is a bad person, or that she's evil, or unkind. I see impersonal discussion about what should happen to people convicted of doping. The only ones making it personal are her supporters--claiming that her "niceness" should be a factor how fans/sponsors react to her past transgressions.

And, in fact, you folks are the only ones spewing vitriol--and you're doing it simply to quiet a conversation you wish weren't happening because some opinions are different than your own. And while I understand the defensiveness coming from fans and friends, there are others I'm shocked are engaging in it--devashish paul and desert dude I'm looking at you.

Aren't you Nina's husband? And you're surprised someone might have a one-sided opinion about your wife?

TimJ,

Thanks for your discussions. I have a sincere question that maybe you can answer on behalf of Nina, and it relates to my comment on deterrents above.

The possibility of a 2-year ban was obviously not enough of a deterrent to prevent Nina from doping at the age of 35. Can she look back and imagine what would have been a deterrent at the time?

I'm assuming that if she had a chance to do it all over again, knowing what she knows now, she would have skipped the EPO. But I'm not talking about the benefit of hindsight.

If, in 2004, she knew that not only would she risk a 2 year ban, but 10 years later her fans still would not return and she'd have few sponsors--would that have been enough of a deterrent?

100% agree

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Adrian in Vancouver

I had every intent of boycotting Trek for the way they aligned with LA and sabotaged Greg Lemond. Unfortunately I could not follow through with the boycott when this past weekend I was forced to drop $3,300 on 3 mountain bikes for my family. Unfortunately they make some great affordable bikes....but it really pains me.

Same goes for Nike, but the Nike Free's are fantastic shoes!

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Adrian in Vancouver

Jordan45
Yes I am Nina's husband and no I am not surprised at all, but I also find it strange if not excessive that someone would avoid using the post office and only receive and send via Fed Ex or UPS.

Is there anything really spectacular here? Great performance for a 46 year old, but let's be honest.....if one of the top 15 women contenders in the world were racing that race, she might have been over 30 minutes behind. I say this without knowing the course but seeing what top racers are putting down for times nowadays. If anything this is just a sign of how diluted the fields are getting now with so many races. For instance, when I think of Ironman, Kentucky never comes to mind.

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Adrian in Vancouver

>'Just interested, what sports do you watch on TV?

Cycling, triathlon, and NFL football. I don't boycott the entire sport. I boycott the actors within the sport.


> Have you ever cheated at anything?

That's a pretty broad term. I've never doped (which for a SoCal road cyclist is apparently rare). I've never cut a turn, etc. I have gotten one drafting penalty in ~10 years of triathlon, but it was inadvertant. (the guy jumped before I got my wheel in front of his...I cracked, dropped back, and got busted as I should have been).

I'm sure I've cheated in many small ways throughout life.


>What products do you actually use?

Well dozens in the triathlon/cycling world, obviously. My most recent purchases are Silca, Zipp, and Flo. I'm sure if I listed them you could shoot lots of holes in the purity of my list. Certainly Zipp has probably had sponsor relationships with many a doper. But going down their list of athletes, nothing jumps out at me. Except of course Omega Pharma Quick-Step! I just pick the ones that are obvious to me. I'm just an individual seeking to stem corporate support for those who undermine sport. In a small way.

AlwaysCurious
I cannot speak on behalf of Nina and I am in no way defending her actions. I however believe the sport is better for those historical events which opened our eyes to the use of drugs in our sport. Nina was rightfully targeted for very limited testing of EPO in Hawaii at that time, It is a little naïve of people to believe that everyone before during or after that time whom we seem to hold in such high regard has always been clean too. Beyond her public shame she was also shunned by many Pros for breaking what is something like a code of silence as to the use of a PEDs, the norm is obviously deny deny deny of which she never did. How many people have confessed on A sample? I am not saying that should or needs to be admired but it is a fact.
As to my opinion on your question 2 or 4 years would have made little to no difference on her decision nor will it to others in the future, as always the punishment should fit the crime. Unfortunately the more money that comes to Triathlon the bigger the incentive.

I probably should clarify something...I have no issue w/ her racing because she did her time and is therefore entitled to race. But I do also believe in stronger doping penalties. I continue to go back and forth on the idea of immediate lifetime bans for blood doping offenses.

Either way, while entitled to race, I also believe that athletes who have previously doped warrant additional scrutiny, and if caught again, deserve no sympathy or additional chances.

That said, while your support of you wife is admirable, I think you are spinning your wheels here (and potentially fanning the flames?). Debating doping with some of the "moralists" here is like debating abortion, gun control or the Israel / Palestinian conflict. You just aren't going to change some people's mind on the issue....no matter which side they stand on.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

> Unfortunately I could not follow through with the boycott when this past weekend I was forced to drop $3,300 on 3 mountain bikes for my family. Unfortunately they make some great affordable bikes....but it really pains me.

This reminds me of the South Park episode where they're boycotting Walmart, and one by one they cave in because of the amazing deals.

And eventually we have to move on. Oakley and Trek dropped Lance like a toilet seat and make great products. Someday....

Everybody has their price, I guess.....


"Forced to drop"? Who "forced" you? Seriously, you can't tell me that you couldn't find a similar deal from Specialized, Giant, or any other brand out there.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

there are plenty of criminals who "could not have been nicer." Nina is a doper and if anyone has any interest in honest sportmanship you don't glorify or praise cheaters like her.

Totally agree.

Happy wife = happy life

She liked the bike for her and the ones for the kids. I am old enough to know the right path to go ;)

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Adrian in Vancouver

Exactly! I would make a terrible member of a protest group ;)

I also selectively protest McDonald's...only in the non-summer months because during the summer they have dollar drink days.

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Adrian in Vancouver

>Exactly! I would make a terrible member of a protest group ;)


Me too. After getting a very persuasive and heart-felt response from Emilio DeSoto via PM, I'm ending my DeSoto boycott after....let's see...about 3 hours. DeSoto arm coolers back into the starting rotation of cycling wear.....

trail
I would be interested in seeing a game of NFL football between clean players that have never taken a banned substance as the ball would probably not move from wherever the referee put it, it must be entertaining with your selected viewing to see it move around the field without anyone touching it.
No need for me to shoot holes in your list you obviously choose to use the products that you are comfortable for whatever reasons and so you should, I was just curios. Traffic school is full of self proclaimed innocent people that have stories similar to your drafting penalty, you get an appropriate punishment and move on.
Thanks for your openness and I wish you the best in your racing and commend you on your continued commitment of doing so in fair and clean manner.
Sincerely Tim

It is perhaps not wise to compare this to other sports, as we all know that football, and all of the major US sports are not bound by WADA, and since OUR sport has this distinction, there is absolutely NO comparison. In fact, I would say we have rules, but when it comes to doping, I think it is more appropriate to think of it as breaking the law, not simply a rule. Yes, she did her penalty and is free to compete as per the rules. How she is accepted is a different matter, which each chooses.

I was in Kona at that time, and she denied Natasha her due. To say she did not dispute the findings is pretty much a big fabrication, as she basked in the glory for how many days until she was BUSTED!? If there was not testing, she was completely willing to walk away as champion! That to me doesn't make an admirable person at all. That time on the stage at the biggest event in our sport can never be given back to the real winner, so don't feel that she has been persecuted unfairly by those that choose not to jump on the bandwagon because she's now a nice person. Tragic that she did not DQ herself before the test came out......that would have been the honorable way and we could have some faith in her integrity. That way it panned out makes her a virtual felon in our sport. I'm happy she seems to be happy in the sport and her community embraces her, but some cannot go that far to be a cheerleader.

What kind of penalty do you think would be a deterrent to doping today? I'm not referring to Nina here, past or present. But a deterrent to a 20-year old aspiring pro, and to a 35-year old established pro?

Would an an assured loss of fans/sponsors forever be enough? Public shaming on internet message boards for the rest of their careers? Or would less do the trick?

I ask because you have a unique perspective on this issue. Not necessarily more right or more wrong than anyone else's, but definitely unique.

Re: Nina Kraft wins IMKY at 46. [TimJ] - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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Good point.

If you admit guilt in modern societies, you paint a target on your back.

Modern human brains (particularly those living in disintegrating social systems) can no longer deal with (and accept) honesty and forgiveness.
Part of ethical decay and break down of social consciousness.
Some atavistic leftover from monkey brains that is resurfacing in a monkey society....

I am grateful to be able to race ironman triathlon. I pay, train, compete and finish in the knowledge that I have raced against people who have cheated me to go faster than me.

Now imagine the same race only no cheating - I pay, train, compete and finish in the knowledge that everybody there respected the rules, nobody cheated and we all shared the same spirit. My fee is worth the same as everybody else's as are my results.

Take your game of NFL and take away the drugs. Now watch the game - what is the difference to the viewer? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Drug cheats taint my entry fee, they take away my right to a fair race and they deny the real winners the opportunity of the podium. They are the disease in sport, the more of them there are the more feel it necessary to cheat to compete. The disease spreads as the money and greed take hold. There is no end to this road, once you are down its path you are taking plaudit and admiration by cheating. You are the disease.

This is one reason why more money in triathlon would ruin the sport. The more money, the more reason to cheat, the more greed and the more financial reward if you are not caught. The more Nina Kraft's would populate the start lines, tainting my entry fee and denying me the possibility of fair competition.

Take your NFL comparison and shove it firmly and solidly up your arse.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Good observations. Even though I believe in deterrents, I also remind myself of Goldman's dilemma: in the 1980s and 90s, 50% of elite athletes said they would take a pill that would guarantee them olympic gold but kill them within 5 years.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.