Usually try to go two or three times pre-race. Then normally one time during

Usually once/twice in the water preswim then usually once in T2. The few times I didn't pee in T2 I had terrible races and cramped significantly on the run.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Im wondering if that might be my problem as well.

If you dont have to go - you dont think of going? Right?

I was expecting to hear back from the labs today but I havent so my mind is wandering again.

Everyone has their own idea of how to fix whats causing this.
Ive heard Salt tabs, Ive heard change to skratch labs from gatorade, dont drink water drink soda, train more, train less, retire and everything between.

I know its not anything to do with heat as Raleigh was hot and I died.
Musselman was just about hurricane conditions and cold.
Same result.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

0 or 1. I pee immediately before the swim start, then in T2 if necessary. My 2 best 70.3s are actually when I didn't pee during the race at all, but I did have to go immediately after.

I'm pretty sure my problem is hydration. Last year at Boulder 70.3 I took 60oz on the bike because it was hot as hell out, I drank about 30oz at best, didn't pee in T2 had a great first run lap then it all fell apart and I cramped all throughout lap 2.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

0 for many 70.3, 1 for one 140.6. Wasn't exactly well hydrated for the only 140.6 I did though. I have peed once in a 70.3 before too.

It is hard to drink too much, by easy to drink too little. Bare minimum is a bottle per hour, but if it is hot I would try to double that. Sweating is your only way to effectively cool your body and it doesn't work well if it is hot and humid.

I have been using the Osmos pre-race as directed on top of drinking g a couple liters of H2O before starting any race. Then drink at every opportunity.

My best 70.3 was one pee during the run.

Have you considered that your problem may be that you are drinking TOO MUCH?

5 bottles of liquid for a 56 mile ride is a lot, IMHO. My stomach would be sloshing like a water balloon if I drank that much.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Zero or one time, although for the zero-piss races, it's a 70.4 since I typically run through the chute to the nearest porta-potty. Basically if I can't pee on the bike I'll hold it since I definitely can't manage to pee running and I'm sure as hell not going to stop to pee.

+1 to Power 13. Could be too much. Read stuff from the Hammer Nutrition site, and Training Peaks.

A pee in the water pre-swim, then normally 0-2 during the bike and run. Same for IM distance, though I may pee a bit more often if it's a cold or rainy day.

Have you tried measuring your sweat rate? I.e. weigh yourself naked, go for a run or ride in hot conditions where you take on fluid only (and don't pee) then weigh yourself when you get back (after towelling yourself dry). The weight difference after you account for whatever you drank is the amount you sweated. I figured out that on a hot dry day I can sweat as much as 2 litres/hour. So in maximum sweating conditions (hot, dry and windy), assuming I sweat a bit on the swim and then am biking/running for ~4 hours, I need to take on something like 8-9 litres of fluid, or 10-12 x 750ml bottles.

What colour is your pee when you do go? That's normally the best sign of whether you're hydrated or not.

This study is pretty relevant - www.myh2pro.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=101271.


They measured the sweat rate of heat acclimatised IM competitors in Kona in warm, windy conditions. Average sweat rate was 1.4 litres an hour, but there were quite a few subjects on 2 litres or more (reassuring that I'm not a sweaty freak!).

Any advice given here about hydration without taking your height, weight and the amount you naturally sweat should be taken with a grain of salt (pun intended).

This is one of those things where everyone is different. I have a buddy who is 6'2", 190 lbs and sweats like a gorilla wearing a gorilla suit on a hot August day. I'm 5'8", 115 lbs and I barely sweat in a sauna. The two of us will not and should not have the same water intake. Additionally the way that people sweat is different. Some people are salty sweaters, some are not. It sounds like you are a salty sweater. If that's the case, you're losing more electrolytes through your sweat than most. Here's a pretty good article: http://www.runnersworld.com/...re-you-salty-sweater

Based on that article, you could try adding more salt not just to your race-day nutrition, but also to your everyday diet.

I know that song all too well.

My first 2 miles in raleigh were in the low 6's.

Just breaks my heart to fall apart like that.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Im not a superhuman or anything so this is not a backdoor brag.

I sweat like the best of them.

Salt stains up the wazoo on my kit, veins sucked in and then having to be pumped full of saline?

Nah - This isn't a too much thing aside maybe it being water in the mix. Flushing out electrolytes.

I asked the doctor the same thing too. Though it was funny the way we went through the process of elimination.

"If youre only peeing 2x max in the whole race,
and youre puting that much flud in yourself.
Im likely to believe that this is coming out as sweat."

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I have a pretty similar build to your buddy.

*edit*
So good call on the body make up.

Im a hockey player by trait and in college was 6'2 230lbs and evenly proportionate.
Sweat like a hog back then and still do today.

Now Im 6'2 175-185 depending on the time of day.
12% body fat and so on and so forth.


And I think you are on to something with the salty sweater thing.

We have dark Kits on our team.

The end of raleigh I looked like I rolled around in cocaine. Not flattering.
Then the cramping started and the tight IT band and then when I sat down to stretch my leg out my hip flexors were spazzing out like Gilbert Gottfried with tourettes.

I used to do this sport as a stress reliever.
Writing down the stuff I have been going through is really not puting me in a happy place.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I drink about 2.5L total during a HIM, of which ~250ml water is during the swim (!), 1.5L Skratch or Gatorade is on the bike, and the rest I go by what I feel like having on the run, typically a mix of water, Gatorade and Coke (maybe 0.5L more if it's really hot) every two miles or so. I don't ever pee after the gun and there is no evidence of being over/under hydrated after the race. Any more than 3L total and I begin to feel sluggish, have some tasty belches/heartburn and generally stop diggin' life for a while. I'm M45-49, 5'7", 160lbs, usually 5 -10 min under 5 hours for the race.

Dave

Well Mercer -

You are a fortunate man to only need so much.

I now know that I sweat like the gorilla in a gorilla suit stated above and that probably is what kills me.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Salt pills or Hammer Endurolytes are very nice to help supplement your liquids and electrolyte intake as well. For long distances its necessary for me to use these at least 2-3/hr depending on the heat, and its easier for me to put down rather than constantly chewing or drinking sugar so many times each hour.

Judging by the lake under my bike during winter training, I think I sweat more than average too! I know how much I need, having dialed it in with pre-/post-workout weigh ins and by how much I can process without burping up stuff, minus a small glycogen depletion factor. Have you tried weighing yourself to see how much you lose with the rate of hydration you are using? It's normal to lose a few pounds from glycogen depletion and still be fully hydrated, from what I understand

Dave

I've never peed in any tri under 140.6. Just go prior to swim and should be good. During musselman I took in probably 4 bottles of water during bike (heavy sweating dude here) and needed very little on run. Didn't even have to go immediately after run.

Unfortunately even with the saline it took all night to have to pee/

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

When determining how much to drink, you should keep in mind that your body can only absorb X oz. per hour. You might be sweating 3 times that amount but your body will/can not absorb enough to keep up. Everything I have read puts X at approx. 24 oz. per hr. Your hydration plan should be limited to that amount and taken into consideration when calculating how much electrolyte replacement to have in each bottle. If I'm wrong on the 24 oz./hr, please correct me.

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Drink lots, drink often. I usually put some kind of electrolyte I my water as well.

To answer your question, right before getting wetsuit on, sometimes just before my swim wave starts and then during the last 1-2 hour or so of the ride I feel that I need to and go in T2.

I've worked the med tent at IMC a number of times. We always asked when the person coming on last peed. Often it was before the race started. That's why they are dehydrated.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

Once on the run

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wouldnt happen to know the magic formula for that would ya?

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Wish that was my case.

Peed in wetsuit. Crap was hot.

Peed on run.

Still showed up like I was dying.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Peed maybe three times during a 70.3 on a hotter than hell day. Peed 18-20 times during 140.6 on a hot day. I know how to pee but not that much.

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DISH is how we do it.

Not certain what you mean by "magic formula". Did a little searching since my earlier post and found 400-800 ml (13.5 - 27 oz.) to be the most often cited number for water, but adding carbs to the water slows down the absorption rate. My understanding is that when you drink in excess of what your body can absorb the fluid will either sit on your stomach or flush through your system. To much flushing can cause hyponatremia which is more dangerous that dehydration. I am certainly not an expert and hope someone with an actual background in this subject will jump into the discussion.


I have a 20oz. bottle and try to take in 5oz. every 15 minutes of my energy drink...one bottle per hour in small sips spread out over the hour. In addition to the fluid, I take electrolyte tablets.

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I don't have any tablets or anything crazy yet. Mostly hoping to hear something like I am salt deficient or I am to eat one rock of crack each race.

I dunno. This is a new side of sports for me. In hockey it was carbs the night before a game and go number two at least an hour before puck drop.

PS

Terrified one day I'll have to number two on a bike leg one day. That would be a humbling moment.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I know you are convinced that it is a dehydration issue, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind. Your body can only process so much fluid at a time, as someone else noted. If you are jamming your system with more that that, you are gonna overwhelm the system.

That is why they give dehydrated people IV's instead of having them drink a bunch of water....their body can't process it fast enough.

5 bottles is a crapton of liquid for 56 miles. For reference, last weekend at Racine I didn't even finish the two bottles I started with (although it was not very warm and I normally don't need a lot).

What are you eating, and what are your taking in on the run?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Everybody's different though, for me that would be fairly normal. For reference I did a 100 mile gran fondo/sportive last August on a fairly hot day, drank 7 bottles (5 litres) in under 5 hours, didn't have a pee during the ride, and was really struggling with dehydration by the end (missed the last water station and did the last 15 miles dry). It took me about 3 hours of rehydration after the ride before I managed my first (dark yellow and stinky) pee since 7am that morning.

I don't know where that 24oz/hour limit earlier in the thread came from, but if true that must be an average limit which varies hugely by person. I regularly drink double that amount without any problems such as bloating or fluid sitting in the stomach. The only time I have problems are if I take on too much nutrition in which case the fluid just sits there, or if I let myself become too dehydrated, in which case it's very hard to rehydrate while still racing. The only solution in both cases is to slow down (or stop altogether in extreme cases) to allow my body to catch up.

Because I figure this is the direction this is going to go here is what I took in for the race.
Before swim
Half packet of GU chomps
35m swim
1 chocolate GU at 1 hr
Another at 145.
Then another at 230.
And another on the last of the bike leg.

Through bike leg
3 water bottles 50/50 split of Gatorade and water.
2 plain water.

Shit hit the fan mile 3 ish to 4 of run.

Was taking water and heed after the body was unhappy.
Ate a cliff bar and just tried everything even flat coke.

Didn't try salt tabs because I didn't realize the benefit at the time.

Though I did get my labs back today.
I'm a real boy.
All levels are optimal across the board.
Which is both good and bad...
Because I am no closer to finding a fix at the metabolic level.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I am far from being a nutrition expert, but for me, that would send me over the deep end. Too much sugar / gel / liquids. 3 gels plus 3 bottles of Gartorade would probably have me puking.

I would experiment with more solid food, less sugary stuff.

How hard were you biking vs. FTP?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

HIM aim to pee once on bike
IM aim for 2x
I don't drink water only perform. Each bottle has a salt tab. Still try to drink 1-2 24 oz bottles per hour depending on temp. Any race where I failed to meet nutritional needs just plain sucked

Oh fun new akronyms. Ftp?

Think I've seen that one before. I don't own a power meter yet. Waiting on my lbs to get the stages one in stock.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Fun fact. In Raleigh when I fell apart I grabbed perform on the route.

3 of em I think.
Two to 4 bottles of water too. Was toasty.

Didn't get an IV though.
Went in the med tent. Ralphed 5x and then ate an entire large pizza on my own.

All right after proposing. Kim was pumped about the puking.

The important part of this. My puke looked like straight perform and I fear it. Wonder if it rules out the salt or that the GU is the culprit.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I don't know where that 24oz/hour limit earlier in the thread came from, but if true that must be an average limit which varies hugely by person. I regularly drink double that amount without any problems such as bloating or fluid sitting in the stomach.


It does not vary widely and it is not based on how much you sweat. Read this thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...im%20noakes;#5056946

Also, Read Waterlogged by Tim Noakes

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I pee during the swim and that's it.

70.3 has always been my favorite and best distance. I feel like I've had nutrition pretty well dialed in, but the focus has always been on caloric intake and not water. By taking all of my calories in through liquid form, I feel like I get just the right amount of water.

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-Andrew

Interested to hear what your outcome ends up being. Having said that there are companies (including Skratch) that are measuring the salinity of your sweat and making hydration to match. There is a company in the mid-west-ish of the US that is now doing the same thing: http://www.gobeyondexercise.com/sweat-sodium-testing/

I have NOT researched the validity of this personally, but a good friend of mine - who I think highly of and trust is a part of this. Perhaps this is the way to go for you, especially given what you are saying about salt stains after a race. I always think about all the other electrolytes that are depleted too if you have that much salt loss. Keep in mind it is electrolyte balance, not just having electrolytes...

Good luck

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________________________________________________
Don't Just Live, Thrive!
Thrive Kinematics Physical Therapy - http://www.facebook.com/...8178667572974?ref=hl

I went before the swim start of my last 70.3 and didn't go again until 30 minutes after the race. Pee color didn't indicate more than mild dehydration. I would have been in trouble if I had to race another 5 hours. It however wasn't very hot or humid. Pretty mild really.

Now for the IM, I expect to pee at least twice on the bike and none at all on the run.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

First off, I start every day with 100 ounces of water. This is every day, not just race days or long runs or rides.

I also drink at least another 40 ounces during the day when I do nothing but drive a vehicle all day or sit at a desk.

When I run I drink about 10 ounces per hour and when I ride it is at least double.

In a 70.3 I will usually pee in the water when waiting to start, sometimes I will pee again on the swim exit (I feel bad about this, running to T1 with pee coming out the ankles of my wetsuit, but what are you gona do??)

I pee on the bike AT LEAST once and usually 2X and once on the run.

I think one of the tricks to being properly hydrated is drinking a lot of water EVERY DAY like I do so that you have a good base to start with. JMHO

YOU SIR~!!!

You are speaking my language.

What are you using. Go.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

To OP, what was the color of your urine after the race? How long after race did you pee?

In those 5 bottles of fluid and any other food and supplements you ingested you took in how much sodium did you take in on the bike?

Are you sure it isn't race pacing instead of hydration?

Vomiting after race was there anything in your stomach? Lot of fluid or mostly dry heaves?

Functional Threshold Power....the power you can hold for a 1 hour, all-out TT effort.

If you are blowing up 3-4 miles in the run, I would look at how hard you are riding the bike leg. Sounds like there is a good chance you are over-biking.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Note to self:

Dont swim near Jamie.

CLEARLY my problem is very different than your metabolic scenario.
I WISH I peed that much. Would probably not have the problem I have now.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Without a PM I wouldn't be able to get you the stats you are looking for.

With raleigh I finished the run and was sick and felt better instantly.
Legs were never sore.

Musselman was a similar issue as well.

Ill check my HR next time I go through a brick and see how hard my body says Im going and get back on that.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Bricking this weekend with a product a teammate suggested called salt stick.

If I die. Someone hunt her down.

Lets hope its the polar opposite.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Usually two concentrated bottles of Roctane on the bike with enough calories for 1:15 each. When the first one is empty I replace it with a bottle of just water from the handups and drink to thirst the second. In T2 I eat a gel and then on the run I use only on the course nutrition. Usually a swallow or two of gatorade at each aid station is enough.

On a hot course (i.e. Buffalo Springs), I change this to add a lot more fluid intake on the bike.

The key for me is to go into the race well hydrated. I'll pee 3x waiting for the race to start and then once or twice again while swimming. After that, it's all sweat...

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-Andrew

You may want do some research on hyponatremia aka water intoxication.

I mean.. if they do it every day, maybe they have some kind of super body immunity to hyponatremia.

But it surely seems unhealthy to drink to the point of needing to pee 40x a day.

Roctane huh?

If I start to bonk again this weekend I'll drop the saltsticks and try that next.

Thanks for the heads up.

Debating getting coached for the month on this.
Need to bulletproof this race or its strictly Olympics and sprints for thus guy.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

That is a ton of water but if he is excreting it he is fine.

I mean I sweat a lot but I think I would have to be taking bathroom breaks on the reg 2x an hr.

Think it makes him more aero?

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

It would make him float higher, because all his empty space in his gut is like a fishtank.

Hahaha you would take that seriously.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

It's not about the specific product. I've used half a dozen other products with success as well. Your first focus needs to be on ensuring you have the right fitness and that you're pacing correctly. In my experience, many supposed nutrition/hydration problems are actually due to failures in fitness or pacing.

But when it comes to nutrition, it takes some trial and error to figure out what works best for you. How quickly can you absorb the calories, how does your gut handle certain concentrations, etc.

Make a speadsheet with different products and breakdown the nutrition:
How many carbs? What's the carb breakdown?
How many electrolytes? What's the breakdown?
Any caffeine? How much?
Any protein? How much?

Do a sweat test to determine how much you sweat in similar conditions to your race.

With all that information and the trial and error, you can build a fueling plan broken into 15 minute intervals that should let you know how much you need to ingest of what products to get the fuel and water that work for you. If it sounds complicated, it really isn't. A good mix a complex and simple sugars, some electrolytes but not too many, enough water to compensate for some of what you're losing through sweat (but definitely not all) and a flavor that you like. Add in some solid foods if you prefer that, but you can break them down the same way.

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-Andrew

I hear you on testing the same situations. But really.
When do I go through that kind of shit? Hmmm.

When my fiance starts talking and I have to grin and bear it.

I sweat like no ones business playing hockey.

I sweat only a little when heavy lifting but sweat more when doing abs.

Though really I don't think I've done much that is as sweaty as doing a tri in the hot summer mugginess.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Train in the conditions you're going to race. My races are usually hot and muggy, so I do my running in the hottest part of the day in the Houston heat.

If you don't go through the pain in training, you're definitely going to feel it during the race.

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-Andrew

The magic of a 9-6 job.

Wearing a suit and tie during work loses its luster when you start sweating through.

Though this weekends bricks will be on par as you suggest.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

I don't think that you and several others have connected all the dots. I am not saying that to be an azz. Dilutional hyponatremia is a very serious event and can lead to death. The fact that he IS excreting the fluids can be a contributing factor.

Couldn't find anything about 24oz/hr in there. The study I linked to above found an average sweat rate in triathletes preparing for Kona of 1.4l/hour or 48oz. So if both those numbers were right and you can't absorb more than 24oz/hr, then the average triathlete would have a net fluid loss of 24oz/hour or ~15lbs during 10 hours of racing. That's clearly not the case or the course would be littered with collapsed athletes, so what am I missing?

Did a little searching since my earlier post and found 400-800 ml (13.5 - 27 oz.) to be the most often cited number for water. If you can find anything scientific (not ST pontificating) that states otherwise, please point me to it. Again, not an expert, it's just what I found from several different sources.

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"You may want do some research on hyponatremia aka water intoxication."


I have, the book Waterlogged by Tim Noakes is a great read. http://www.amazon.com/...urance/dp/145042497X

I don't think I have that problem. I do load up on H2O in the AM but throughout the day I drink when thirsty and never "force it down"

I am 41 years old, have been doing this for a LONG time and have not had any problems yet.

Here is the real bad news, I don't think I am the only one pissing in the water while we all wait for the swim to start.

Not 40 times a day but at least 10.

This is false.

There have to be more people in the water peeing for it to be accurate.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

+1 on Anando - depends on the person. Also depends on the event.

For some reason Beach2Battleship Half 2013 was a pee-fest. I peed a ton on the bike, as did many others as said in their race reports. Like a pee PR.

So, really hard to nail down a healthy pee rate because lots of variables.

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_____________

"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen

Quick update.

20 miles into the bike I peed. Big deal as I normally don't.

Just scratch labs and no nutrition.

Wonder if GU is clogging me up.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390

Alright Sunday went for a long bike and a run.

Brought Salt tabs
3 bottles of skratch labs
3 honey stinger waffles (which by the by are amazing.)

Did ok on the 50+ bike.

Couldnt breathe after 2 miles on the run.

Though I didn't feel dehydrated or insanely stiff and locking up.

I blame myself for not working on my run as much as I should have been over the last few weeks
and a little bit on the humidity.

Feel good about the diet portion though as I was sweating WELLL into the day.

More pavement pounding is in my future.


I did pee at mile 25 and a few more times later in the day too.
Wasn't a bright neon yellow but more a clear with yellow tint to it.
Feeling better but not confident.

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http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390