Hey snappingt I am in love with USRPT. My coach is a big proponent and while I concentrate on shorter pool events In 25 years I have seen bigger improvement the past 3 than all the other years combined. Some of that is technique, but most of it is the USRPT. LOVE it. Having been coachless much of the past month I'm looking forward to a steady diet of these workouts starting Friday. Rushall's approach is fine by me!

I am curious at responses you will get. I attended the USRPT seminar by Dr. Rushall and Peter Andrew on 7th and 8th of Jan, held at KU. I am a swim coach and work somewhat close from time to time with Peter Andrew, father and coach of Michael Andrew. He exclusively trains under USRPT methodology.
Would love to see what you get here. Triathlon community is always more open minded than traditional swimming crowd. You may get scolded :) for bringing this up by some swimmers, you may hear, we have always done it this way.....kind of a thing. I listened to USA Swimming webinar by Bob Bowman, Capacity vs. Utilization training, he sure referenced Rushall and USRPT, was not impressed.
Anyway, the swim community is divided for sure. USRPT per say has not produced a star yet. I don't consider Salo entirely USRPT oriented, even though, some elements seem to appear in his work.

I seriously cringe at some swim workouts and thoughts handed down by tri coaches. Sometimes, it is clear, they have no idea. You can see a lot of times just running or cycling "translated" method to swimming.
Two things drive me insane, claims that swim training is mostly recovery in nature ( one is simply not swimming hard enough than) and miss use of drills, drilling to drill...........

I agree with your second paragraph entirely.

Thanks for posting this. The USRPT, for the purposes of age group triathletes, seems like a focused and effective way to do specific work in the lead up to an event. Race-pace in triathlon is not a very hard effort (outside draft legal and starts), but this approach should improve focus and execution. And way more enjoyable than a long grinding swim.

I've been doing some of the posted workouts off your website and they are really well assembled - short and hard repeated intervals are effective. Thanks for sharing your program basics, it's a nice resource.

I wanted to start a discussion about swim training for triathletes and like I said there are some aspects of USRPT that are applicable to training triathletes for the swim. From what I've read of USRPT, there are certain aspects of it that are applicable to elite level swim training. I think it touches on a piece of the puzzle for some swimmers. I read the original paper that Rushall put out on USRPT and there was a lot of theory without a lot practical experience backing it up. The couple things that stuck out at me the most were don't use any equipment and don't do any drill work. It strikes me as someone that has never coached swimmers on a regular basis and someone that doesn't understand exactly how to get at great technique. Some of the equipment he dismissed is invaluable in getting at efficient technique. One other thing that sticks out is no weight lifting/dryland training. Especially, at an elite level, it's going to be kind of difficult to produce a star with that methodology.

Michael Andrews, I'd like to see how he develops over the next 5-10 years especially as he appears to train by himself. It's good to be 6'4 and 14 or 15 years old. As a coach, you know this as well as I do, swimming is littered with bright young swimmers that peak early and are never heard from again.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I agree totally. I find many flaws in USRPT and many holes he leaves unanswered.
I have my angle to it and see only targeted groups can benefit from it. I do not see it as a team training platform for developing swimmers, not at all. However, not that some elements cannot be applied where appropriate. Doc is an interesting face, pretty sarcastic and dismissive of traditional swim training. I find that a bit arrogant. It was fun listening him ramble about toys, drills and coaches with stopwatches.
I find that more developed swimmers, that have a large aerobic base from years of training, if specializing in sprint events can benefit from USRPT. I am not bying into this training for anything over 200. Look at Michaels events, rarely over 100.
My question is what happens with development of aerobic system when 14 year old engages in this kind of training year around????? I guess we shall see down the road. I do try to keep an open mind but I want to see an international breakthrough before I jump on it. Apparently, many European teams arw adopting it. Will see. Still interested for others to chime in.

First of all Rushall is a psychologist, not a physiologist. By no means am I implying that makes his perspective invalid, but the OP shoudl get that straight.

As for the ultra short repeats my thoughts.

1. Like others it shows that Brent R. isn't coaching anyone right now, and the whole conversation breaks my "name five" rule. If any coach author, anyone like that proposes some new supposedly wild idea that is taking the world by storm, name five. Give me FIVE people for whom it has worked well and their results and the changes in their results. Until you have five, you're just spitballing. And 5 is LOW, but once you have 5, I'll listen.

2. Who ISN'T doing this? This is the strawiest of straw men, a supposed dichotomy has been set up that in actuality doesn't exist. So a mess of 100s at 1,500 pace with 15 or 20 seconds rest. Yes, revolutionary, off the type of my head you can only find that type of set described in:
Championship Swim Training
Triathlete's Training Bible
Triathlete's Guide to Swim Training
Swimming Fastest
ASCA level 3 home study course
ASCA Masters home study course
USAT level 1 coaching manual
Swim Coaching Bible Vol 1
Swim Voaching Bible Vol 2
pretty much every other book written that covers swim set construction

So yes, that type of set is so revolutionary, EVERYONE does it.

Kevin,

Let me assist you. Unless his bio on his we page is wrong he is Prof Emeritus at San Diego State in Exercise and Nutritional Sciences. His graduate degrees are in exercise physiology/human performance. He is a registered psychologist and his early work dealt with sports psychology, but all his latter focus has been on the exercise sciences. I can see how you would get confused.

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/rushall/

I am in no way advocating his theory of swim training, but there are aspects of it that the tri community needs to hear more often and I thought this would be a fun way to introduce it. The "revolutionary" aspect of it is that he argues that sprint, mid-distance and distance swimmers should always be training at race pace and maintaining efficient technique. That strength training does nothing to improve swimming performance and that drills and equipment do nothing to improve technique. Yes, those programs that you referenced below would include 100s with 15-20 seconds rest, but Rushall argues that repeats should never be longer than 100. The other programs you referenced don't advocate that rigid of a structure or that doing 500 or 1000 repeats is actually detrimental to your swim development.

In terms whose training like this, the only swimmer that is being trained to the letter with Rushall's theory is Michael Andrews. Dave Salo started training swimmers like this at Irvine Novaquatics in the early 80s. An Olympic swimmer that I swam with in high school trained like this in the late 80s. I know that a D3 school is implementing this methodology with their sprint group, but they just started this past season.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Great info and thanks for posting. I am interested in trying this out. I was not seeing any progress in speed doing long slow endurance sets last year, and hit a plateau which was demoralizing.

Every athlete that Tim coaches gets really fast, so I listen to what he says!

Thanks for the endorsement. We've had a lot of success on the team.

The one thing that I would caution about USRPT is that it is designed for swimmers that have already built up a HUGE base of training. I think there are aspects of it, however, that are very applicable to training for the swim leg of a triathlon. If you have any questions, let me know.

Best regards,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Between Matt, Liz, and Michelle, among others, you have some great swimmers! A couple questions:

1. I put in about 125,000 yards over the last year and my speed is around 2:00/100 m for 500m. Is that sufficient to begin USRPT?
2. Difference subject - Will you have another Snapping Tortuga open water swim event in the spring (prior to May)?

Answer to number 1: If you are putting in around 125,000 yards a week, then yes.
Answer to number 2: Snapping Tortuga OWS (5k/2.5k/500m) is April 13, 2014 in Lake Conroe. Here is the link: http://www.active.com/...ack-2014?keywords=na

Also, we are going to do a Snapping Tortuga pool challenge. 1.2mile or 2.4mile pool swim, every one sends in the results by March 31, 2014 and you'll be able to compare your times to everyone around the country. I'll have more information on it in the next couple of days.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

this is a crack-up...thanks!

I have read a fair amount on the subject and made a few changes in my training as a result. My observation is that the longer the set the principals Rushal espouses hold true.

For example: his approach for a sprinter is something like this 20 x 25's with the first 6-8 seconds per 25 done at 100% effort. If you compare that set to, say 8 x 50's with LOTS of rest the swimmer doing the 20x25's will have 1. lower lactic acid levels through out the set and 2. spend more time overall at their top speed.

I have tried this very approach several times and I am 95% convinced he is right. It is strange. You feel "tired" but in a completely different way. And recovery comes much quicker.

However, I don't think there is a huge difference between doing 7 x 300's at 1500 race pace with 1 min of rest and 21 x 100's at 1500 race pace with 20 seconds rest ASSUMING I am close to my top condition and I don't think he was able to demonstrate any difference of lactic acid buildup between the two approaches.

Hey Tim, hope it doesn't bug you to answer a question you probably have answer a million times, but I was wondering how you like to determine hold paces/race paces? Is it what the swimmer could do right now, a lifetime best, or a goal time, or do you determine it some other way? Thanks for your time!

Tim

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Tim Russell, Pro Triathlete

Instagram- @timbikerun

Tim,

Sent you a PM, if you want to discuss.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Keen to give this a try. Are there any good sites out there with some examples of USRPT sets?

Magnolia Masters puts on a pro/AG camp every year and I do a write up with all the workouts we do every day. You can find them on the Magnolia Masters website or this year Lava covered the camp in a series of articles. I hope this helps and if you have any other questions, please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Great thanks

I'm a huge fan of USRPT. I use it regularly to train for pool events. Contrary to atasic's speculation on effectiveness beyond 200M, I had huge success with it as my exclusive training method a couple years ago training for the 400M free as my "A event." That said, I'm not sure that it has a lot of direct applicability to triathlon training beyond maybe a FOP Sprint or Oly distance specialist. The objective of a triathlete in the swim is different than the pool swimmer or even open water racer. Especially a long-format triathlete. And I do think it gets harder to directly apply the principals at longer distances. I had far less success trying to adapt USPRT principals to my training for a 2 mile open water swim the following year.

Now, I do think triathletes would benefit from regularly doing some USRPT, or USPRT-like, sets of 25's and 50's at 100 and 200 pace, respectively. Think about the most effective ways used to build cycling power. It's not just long, slow rides. The repeated short alternating intervals of high output/recovery are a huge part of the plan. You need to do something similar in the pool, IMHO, if you want to build your swim power.


As for concerns about whether kids using this method will be lacking a "aerobic base," I think it depends. If they're being trained for 50's and 100's only, and aren't doing anything more than 25's at race pace, it's a valid concern. But if they're being trained for a variety of events across the spectrum of distances, then I think there's more of an aerobic component than might appear at first glance.


When I was training for the 400M free, my staple set was an "offering" of 32 x 75 yards at 400/500 race pace on a 20 second rest interval. I say "offering" of 32 because I never made that many before failing out. When I got close to 32, I knew it was time to advance the pace. Typically I was getting into the low 20's, though. So that set was taking me roughly 30 minutes, with ~20 minutes of that in motion. I guarantee there was a significant aerobic capacity component to that work. The sets of 25's I did at 100 race pace on 15 seconds rest which had a roughly 1:1 work:reset ratio and were over in 10-12 minutes? Not so much. But I guarantee that helped my power capacity, though.


In fact, in the middle of that training block I went out and finished 3rd overall in a 1.2 mile open water race, my first ever, despite rarely swimming anything longer than those 75's in practice. Not coincidentally, that 1.2 mile race took almost exactly as long to complete as one of those USRPT sets for the 400M free. And it's not like I had "carry over" aerobic capacity from other exercise, because I really wasn't doing anything else at the time besides swimming with USRPT.


As for Michael Andrew, it will be interesting to see what he's able to do in the next 5 years. While is rate of progression has slowed, his 14 year old "baseline" was so high that the gains are understandably hard to come by. He recently won a "World Champion" title in the 100 IM at FINA short course worlds. Not Junior World Champion, but outright World Champion. Now that field isn't a complete "Who's Who" of swimming because the US collegiate swimmers don't typically participate. But most of the International stars were there, and the field did include current world record holder Vlad Morozov.

And, with Lochte and Phelps out of the way, Michael Andrew is clearly in the hunt for a spot on next years Long Course World Championship roster for the 200 IM. He was 6th at trials, and swam a time this past weekend at the Indy Area Pro Series event that would have been 4th at trials.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I have used a variation of Race pacee training for myself and athletes. For a triathlon or long distance application we use a set of 25-30x100 on 15 second rests. We try to hold 1500 meter pace for one workout and then use shorter sets with 25's to 100's once every 7-10 days. I do use it a bit more in the traditional manner for the athletes I coach for masters swim. As a triathlete ( from a running background) in my 35 year as a triathlete it makes sense for age group athletes getting a value to their training time.










futrmultisports.com

Gary,

I haven't had any problems training triathletes with a race paced approach for a 2.4 mile swim. What you really need to focus on is that it requires half the yardage to achieve the same result as a traditional volume approach to swimming. For instance, if a traditional volume approach of 10x400s or 4x1000s with the athlete swimming 15-20k a week was used, a race paced approach can get the same results on 7500-10k. In my experience, it's 2:1.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Tim-

I know this is an old thread, but I noticed that you responded earlier this year, so....

My googling for "USRPT for triathlon" let me to this thread...which I followed to the links on magnolia masters.

All the links to PDF's on the link above, seem to fail (404 errors).

I was looking for guidance for selecting a "pace". I tried a set on Saturday: 32x100 (:20), coming in at 1:45. I selected that pace based on a recent race (Oly Swim) where I finished in 31:00 (no wetsuit). Also my most recent 1000scy TT time is 17:40.

I kept coming in at 1:41-43 versus the 1:45 I had planned. I kept trying to slow down to the 1:45 pace, but the only "failure" I had in the first 2/3rds of the set were simply because I "slowed" to much trying to gauge the 1:45 effort correctly. I had my first true "failure" at #27. I sat out #28, and then finished the remaining reps with the last finishing strong at 1:40. I averaged 1:43 for the entire set, and held 20-22 spl (scy).

Obviously, 1:45 was too slow of a pace, and I probably need to bump to 1:40 or so.

So, my specific question was, "How do I choose the correct 'pace' for a USRPT set?" But, I was also interested in getting more general guidance about using USRPT for triathlon swim training (how/why to select different rep distances, paces, frequency/volume, etc). I'm specifically focused on Oly distance, and have about 14 months as an AOS.

Pure USRPT has been pretty hammered over the last few years, but if that’s what you want, you should try to get exactly 20 seconds rest per interval. You’ve gotta do the sets a couple times, as you found out, and pool times are comparable to open water times with any precision. Also, in pure USRPT, you’re SUPPOSED to fail.
So it sounds like you should be working at a 1:41 pace at least, and maybe dropping it a second or two now. For a while, at least, you’ll likely make quick progress with that interval and need to keep increasing your pace.

you are thinking about pacing and being smart about it so, really, that is 90% of the battle.

The thing with a swim time trial is they are a lot more variable than we like to think. I swim a 3000 straight every Tuesday and have ranged from 40:30 to 42:07 the last month. It has a lot to do with what I did in the AM, the day before and the swimsuit I wear. So what is my pace?

It seems that, on that particular day, you needed to target 1:40. (And perhaps half way through you make an adjustment.)

If all you are doing is swimming the approach would be more exact. There would be a lot less variables and thus your pace range on any given day would narrow. Unless that is the case, you need to be able to adapt...

PS: Tim works with a lot of folks who have such a high fitness level a bad day is maybe 1 or 2 seconds per 100.

Thanks for the feedback (you and trex..)!

Yes, I have noticed that variation in myself, too. Case in point, today was slower than Saturday. I didn't do a USRPT set...but, I clearly would not have been able to hold 1:40 for very many reps today (1:45 would have been more apropos today).

I sorta mentally adjusted to the 1:43-ish pace....but, this was my first time to do 30x100 (ever)...so, I just wasn't sure how I was going to feel around 22 reps AND with only :20 rest. So, I played the pace a little conservative...apparently TOO much so. I'll get a better feel for it with a little more practice. I suppose its a lot like strength training...it takes a few attempts to find out what pace (weight) is required to fail at the "right" point. From what I've read, I should be "looking to fail" around the 15 rep mark...for the first time (rather than 27 as happened above).

If nothing more, it seems to be good practice at managing RPE (particularly that balance between moderate and too hard), which is something that I don't seem to have a good sense of in the water.

Trex...yes, I knew I was SUPPOSED to fail. and all rest intervals were exactly :20 (I setup the workout on my 920, with a :20 RI). As I said above, I just wasn't sure how quickly I would or wouldn't fade. Even if I didn't get the workout exactly right....If nothing else, it was a bit of a confidence boost going into my A-race this coming Sunday...as I'd never swum THAT fast (1:43), THAT much (2900 scy), on THAT little rest.

I just want to better my Oly swim from 3 weeks ago (31:00)...this one should be wetsuit legal, so there's that. But, I'd really like to do better even "wetsuit adjusted". Hell...if I can just swim in a straight line, that should take 2 minutes off. :-)

There are a lot of sighting drills around. They'd probably help you more in the short turnaround you've set for yourself.
Try swimming eyes shut for a few strokes, and also sighting in the pool trying to pick a spot or three to pick out each time you lift your head. These aren't bad to incorporate during aerobic sets.

Thanks. Yes, I've been doing some, and I've been going to the lake every Sunday for the last 6 weeks, where there is a buoy-marked 450m course. I have a swim coach, and he says I have a decent "sighting stroke". But, that doesn't help if you forget to look. I tend to drift left (to my breathing side), but this last Sunday was a marked improvement...I swam straighter, and remembered to sight more frequently, and thus actually rounded the corner buoys within a body length. Just gotta stay focused on race day.

Also my OW pace on Sunday was much more "similar" to my pool pace. I felt more relaxed and balanced, and my stroke rate was more controlled.

Until Michael Andrew has some really amazing results, I'm not buying into it (I'm a swim coach). Yes, Andrew is a very talented swimmer. But he has yet to really break through on the international swimming scene.

what??? Look I can understand the skepticism but Andrew is possibly the best swimmer in the world under the age of 20.

21.7 in the 50, 1:59.1 in the 200 IM -> the fastest swimmer ever (I am guessing) to break 2:00 in the 200 IM ( George Bovell maybe?!?!)

(fastest swimmer claim based off of 50M time)

Tom,

PM me and we can set up some time to talk.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

If you are a swim coach, then you might want to learn the history of coaching in the sport a little better. Dave Salo has been advocating a race pace approach to training long before USRPT. He was writing about it in swimming world in the early 1980s. And take a look at the work of Sam Freas too. There’s never just one successful way to train. But current swimming orthodoxy is missing out on some ways to improve athletes.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I think it's a mistake to either buy into or discount a method of set construction based off of the performance of a single person.

My take is that it's a tool in the toolbox, sometimes that type of set for a few weeks works wonders, and the number of weeks varies widely. Not all the time, but some of the time it is.

For a good chunk of people I see at the pool putting in aimless yards - a little laser focus on times would be a good change.

Yeah, and there's some sense he's stagnated, and I've heard rumors he's changed his training away from USRPT. So...we'll see.

Did you not follow the FINA Junior World Championships? The kid swam Junior World Record times in the 50 back, 50 fly, and 50 free.....all in the same session! He's currently ranked 11th, 7th, and 9th in the world in those three events. In a ~30 minute span of time, he displayed more raw speed than the reigning Olympic gold medal winners in the 100 free and 100 back could muster all year. Not bad for an 18 year old kid. No, he's not Phelps at 18. But nobody's been close to Phelps at 18 since Phelps was 18. Andrew has as much talent at 18 as any US male swimmer since Phelps, other than, perhaps, Caeleb Dressel.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

(Quote) "The thing with a swim time trial is they are a lot more variable than we like to think. I swim a 3000 straight every Tuesday and have ranged from 40:30 to 42:07 the last month."(Quote)

What length pool or is your 3000 in OW???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

SCM, no warmup and I didn't say it was all freestyle...

Sooooo, was it 15 x 200 IM or??? You can't just leave me hanging...:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ha no freaking way! I don't think anyone who considers themselves a triathlete could do a 3000m IM in 40:30. (I went 40:00 yesterday).

Since you asked:

is is essentially 12 x 250's where the last 25 of each 250 is stroke. But I do back twice instead of breaststroke. So 8 laps of back, and 4 of and fly total. IN the middle of the set I am doing the freestyle at about 1:18 per 100 on a good day...

(ironic: We are discussing a 3000 straight in a USRPT thread)

No breaststroke??? The horror...I actually kind of like swimming breast but man, it takes SO much energy to swim that stroke with any speed whatsoever. Getting my hands/forearms out over the water is a pretty big effort, plus you have to kick really hard. I really like the feeling of getting way up there with the arms though, imagining myself to be Adam Peaty. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

you don't need to get your arms/hands out of the water on recovery to do breaststroke...

To be more precise, I'm not getting them ALL the way out of the water but rather "out over the water", i.e. skimming over the surface of the water; the "wave" breaststroke, which is what most of the fast breast guys/girls do. The higher I ride in the water on my recovery, the faster I go...:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I couldn't decide whether to start a new thread or continue to add on to this one. I guess I'm piling on...

I did a block of USRPT back in November/December, and it worked really well. In 6 weeks I went from 20x100 @1:43/100scy to 1:34/100scy for the same set. At that point, I was swimming 5x per week (2-3 USRPT sets and 1-2 drill sets)...and, mostly JUST swimming. However, due to an injury I had to take Jan/Feb completely off (no SBR at all).

I started back up in March, and did more USRPT sets. I was able to do USRPT sets 4x per week, and make gains in almost every set. I made good gains through May, while cycling/run volume was still pretty low. But, fast forward to today where I'm in the middle of a balanced build, and the cycling/run fatigue is clearly impacting my swim on some days (Mondays---after the long bike/brick on Sat....Wed-after FTP intervals). I'm making good gains on the bike/run, but I'm struggling a bit on the swim---at least on days where I've got excess bike/run fatigue to deal with.

Case in point: On Friday, I did a USRPT set of 75s. The plan was to do the 25x75 set @ 1:36/100scy pace (coming in at 1:12). Frankly, for the first several I was struggling to go that "slow", and I came in at 1:08-1:10 (1:30 pace - 1:34 pace), etc. I didn't slow down to the correct pace until #6. Today, I only managed 3 reps at the 1:12 pace---Everything else was slower. I bailed on the workout after #12---since I just couldn't keep it together.

Looking back at my logs, it seems I have good USRPT sets when my overall TSB is around -20. Once it gets near -30, I seem to have bad swim days. So, clearly I need to plan my USRPT swims on days that are more well rested. But, in the context of a balanced build block, I'm not going to be "rested" all the time. Also, I'm not completely predictable on when days will go well or poorly. So, I'm looking for strategies for how to respond to (and manage) the effects of fatigue---on the swim.

What is the right reaction to a bad day in the water on a planned USRPT day? I've been operating under the "never swim slow or practice poor technique" philosophy. So, when its not going right, I bail. Would I have been better to change the focus, but still get in the volume?

Would it be better to set target USRPT paces that allow me to complete them when I'm in these more fatigued states? For example, today I think I could have completed the 30x75scy set, if I'd backed the target time down to 1:15 (1:38-1:40/100 pace). But, thus far...I've always assumed that going slower only reinforces going slower---so, I don't do that.

I can always tell how the day is going to go by my warmup pace. Not that I try to swim the warmup fast---I try and go easy. But, if I tag the wall comfortably and see 1:38ish for the opening 100scy...then its going to be a good day. Today, I tagged the wall at 1:44---and it felt "harder". My subsequent drill sets were similarly slower than normal (about the same 6-second delta).

If I'd been on the bike or on the run, I'd probably just have changed the focus---drop any intensity and just do a steady-state type of workout.

These are the options I consider:

1. Shorten the repeat distance. If I came in intending to do 100s at mile race pace, but find myself failing early, I'll go to 75's at the same pace after the first fail. May even go to 50's after a second fail. Or I may pre-adjust the distance before starting the set if warmup feels crappy.
2. If my legs just aren't there from the get-go from recent hard running/biking; I'll throw in a pull buoy and go long-and-strong.
3. I may do drills and/or work on off strokes. 25's with lots of rest.
4. If it all feels like junk, I'll pack it in early and go home.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Hows Michael Andrew doing in 200s of stroke, 400IM, 4FR......let me know. Oh, I think I know that answer, the kid was a local to us and we watched him closely at local meets since he moved to Lawrence, KS, for the last several years. :)
50s is his prime, USRPT is good for that. Yeah, there is 100IM I know, 100BR, 100FL lately and some 100FR. But mostly 50s.
No single extreme side of the pendulum will yield optimum results long term. Just look at Dressel/Troy combo and their joint work. It has all elements in it. Dude still does 20x400IM sets.
It is good to do USRPT type training at the appropriate times of the season. It is good to have that element in any program.
However, have not been convinced still that it produces distance swimmers if relied on solely . Actually, I know it does not. I don't speculate. I study statistics. :)
I am very fond of Michael and his family. Peter and I have collaborated, exchanged thoughts and ideas some time back. Even done some clinics for my swimmers together. He has had my kids in his pool for clinics.

Is it really fair to say USRPT is only good for 50's because MA isn't that good at the stroke 200's or the 400? If he doesn't do any USRPT work for the 400 free, how is his lack of performance in that race an indictment of the training methodology? Clearly, he's chose to focus on the shorter events. FWIW, he went best times in the 100 fly and 100 breast this weekend, with the strong back-halves he's heretofore been missing and which people previously pointed at as a shortcoming of his training. We'll see how he stands up to everybody's best shot at Nationals in a few weeks, but, as of right now, He's in the top 2 in the US rankings in the fifty free and those two 100's. I'll be shocked if he doesn't make the Pan-Pacs roster in at least one of those 100's.

I won't argue that USPRT is a better way to get fast at distance swimming than going 40k yards + a week. But, if you only have ~60 minutes, 4-5 times a week, you can get pretty far with a consistent application of USRPT. I had a huge-for-me 1000 free at USMS Spring Nationals, after 8 months of just ~12k yards/week, but doing much of that 12k as USRPT sets of 100's, 125's, and 150's.

For the triathlete who has a limited amount of time to devote to swim training, you could do a helluva lot worse.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I agree with you completely. That is the best use of time for triathletes that are time constrained and know how to swim well. For your level that is a very efficient use of time and high quality 12k per week.
I used MA only as he is the most prominent and successful USRPT swimmer that I know. I am certain that he will be on Pan-Pacs team. We will all be rooting for him.
Keep crushing it. Awesome to see folks swimming USMS Champs.

You’re experiencing what I’ve seen with hundreds of triathletes over the last 5 years. It is what brought me to the conclusion that the majority of triathletes are wildly over-trained. If you can’t make an adaption or are actually going backwards in one of the 3 sports you are training, then you are doing too much. If you are still carrying that much fatigue into the next workout then your body hasn’t recovered enough to realize an adaption.

The gains you were experiencing are in-line with what I see with the athletes I coach. We’ve changed the program up considerably since I originally started to talk about race pace training.

If you aren’t making the pace on a given workout, just do the remainder of it where you make the interval and keep it aerobic instead of hitting the goal pace. The lower level aerobic activity will help with the recovery. Also, throw in some kicking. It can help clear the fatigue in your legs.

Don’t practice going slower. If you can’t make the pace that you had been making or are going backwards then it’s time to take a hard look at your bike/run training. If you are off by 6 seconds/100 that’s the equivalent of about 20+ seconds a mile pace.

A daily descend set at the end of warm up can tell you a lot about you’re level of fatigue.

Hope this helps and if you have any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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Thanks, Tim.

Yep, today (well really, Saturday) was definitely a screw up. Last week, I had a similar issue on Monday---which I attributed to doing my long ride on Sunday, instead of my normal Saturday routine. Thus I only had about 16 hours of recovery from that Brick before swimming.

This week I moved the Brick back to Saturday in response---expecting that I'd be fine with 40 hours or so between the brick and swim---I might have been, if I'd followed the prescription.

However, this week, I chose to screw things up in a different way----I felt really good on Saturday, and rode harder than planned. Saturday's brick was supposed to be 145TSS combined, but I ended up with 205. I didn't really worry about it, because I thought I had plenty of time to recover. I also didn't really think I was pushing all that much harder. ...lesson learned...again.

<<<trust and follow the plan>>>
<<<trust and follow the plan>>>
<<<trust and follow the plan>>>




Ok. So on the rare bad day, swim slower, but shorten the rest interval? Eg, target was 75s at 1:12 (1:36 pace) with 20s rest (on a leave interval of 1:32). If I cut the rest in half, and slowed the pace, that would be 1:22 per 75 with about 10 seconds rest (still leaving on the 1:32). Interestingly, that would be almost exactly my current CSS pace.

Welcome.

For the 75s, I would put it on 1:35 for a 1:12/hold pace. Don’t drive yourself crazy with being exact on the rest interval of 20 seconds. If you aren’t making it, then just do the rest of the 75s at 1:35. Make the interval. So if your pace drops to 1:20-1:25, that’s fine. Keep thinking about your stroke and relax. Take it easy.

And that’s the same protocol of you are having a good day and trying to push your pace forward. If you had moved your pace to 1:10/75 and missed one, sat it out then jumped back in and missed again, then do the rest of them easy. It’s your brain/body telling you that it has made all the adaptation it can from the workout. When you push past that all you are doing is ingraining sloppy, slower technique into your stroke.

Any other questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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looks like your USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training link is no good. "Oops, that page can't be found"

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TEAM F3 Undurance

Sorry about that. I updated the website a while back and some of the links got broken. I need to update that article anyway.

Tim

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http://www.snappingtortuga.com
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Swim coaching with an orthodox, periodized approach is really starting to show its age. Why as a coach would you train an athlete on twice the volume that you need to, if you can do half as much and get to the same place or better.

If you want to say that Michael Andrew proves that race paced training is only good for 50s, then you could equally argue that Caleb Dressel could be a lot faster if he stopped swimming 20x400IMs as a sprinter. Is Dressel’s success because of the coaching or in spite of it?

You might want to look again at race paced training producing distance swimmers. I know the swim coaching community likes to ignore his success and pretend it doesn’t exist because it wrecks the “only volume” argument, but Dave Salo has produced world championship distance swimmers on a lot less volume.

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Totally! If you're not getting feedback on your drill form/technique (either by a coach or by video), how do you know that you're employing them properly to improve your technique? Wasted time, IMO.

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Ok. So, this winter I'm having the opposite problem that I was having this summer. Ie, in the early summer I was overtraining, and backsliding on the USRPT sets.

At the moment, I've pretty much gone all-in on the swim, and only pay a little lip-service to the bike and run. I'm doing 2 main USRPT workouts a week (a set of 50s one day, and a set of 100s the other), and 2 swims with a more technique focus (drills from coach), and one longer interval swim (4-6x400 (30s)). Note the 400s typically work out to about the same pace as my 20x100s set for that week (eg, 6:52/400 last Saturday vice 1:41/100 on friday)---so, its not just a slog.

The issue that I'm having (if you can call it an "issue") is that my adaptation on the 100s is happening faster than my sample rate. What I mean by that is that by the time I come back and do another set of USRPT 100s (1x per week), the pace I did last week is "too easy". For example:

11/30: 22x100 usrpt @ 1:41 pace. Failed at #10, #17, #22
12/06: 25x100 usrpt @ 1:39 pace. Failed at #15, #20, #25

Strictly speaking I "should" have done today's set at 1:41 and gone all the way through #20+ at that pace. But, my first 5 intervals were 1:37/1:42/1:37/1:38/1:39, and I was actually trying (unsuccessfully) to slow to the 1:41 pace. The 1:39 felt like a pace that I could sustain well into the offering, so I just went with it. This is fairly common with the 100s, less so with the 50s.

So, I guess my question is...is there anything fundamentally wrong with using my pace for the first 5 to set the pace for the rest of the day...and never actually working through the 20x100 at the "set pace"? I guess its working, so....I probably shouldn't complain until it stops.

I have no opinion on USRPT because I don't know enough about it, but when you say @ 1:39, what is your interval? The very little I do know about USRPT has me wondering .. are 100s typical in USRPT training? I thought there was a lot of 25 and 50 work.

The length of the interval depends on the event you are training for. Ideally race distance is 4-8x the interval distance. So, 100s are typical in USRPT when training for 400 and up.

Strictly speaking USRPT prescribes 20s rest for all sets regardless of repeat length. So, my send-off for the 1:39s would be roughly 2:00.

I'd say you are doing your 100's too slow. If you are doing a "distance day" of 4-6 x 400 on 30s rest, then that will be slower than your 400m race pace. Under the USRPT paradigm, you want to be swimming at your "race pace" for all of your repeats.

Do a 400m time trial and use that result for your target paces.

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Wait. I'm training for Oly distance, not a 400. I'm not saying you're wrong....just trying to understand the logic. ??

I've been doing the 4-6 400s to work on the mental aspect of swimming hard for longer continuous bouts---without just doing a 1500m straight. Something that I have struggled with on OD races...mentally, not physically. Initially the 400s were WAAAAY off my USRPT 100s pace...by, like 8 seconds (7:34/400 v. 1:45/100). Now, its more like 1-2s.

Do you still think that means I'm swimming the 100s too slow?

For USRPT you want to train your 100's faster, yes. Plus, swimming faster 100's will eventually translate into faster 400's and then 1500's, etc.

Scott

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Ah, OK. I'll have to think about that. I think I have the USRPT "bible" saved somewhere on my system, I need to refresh my memory.

I believe that the longest repeat under strict USRPT is 100m, but I'm questioning whether you should be bumping that up to 150's or so.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Cool....I'm thinking just right then. GarryP had recommended 125s for an open 1500m race. I don't like ending on the wrong side of the pool---its just WRONG. And an OD swim isn't a 1500m race. So, THAT is exactly my plan come January.

ETA: I also have a plan to bump up to 200s starting in March.

Ha! I love doing 75's and 125's in practice, really, anything that's kind of an odd (i.e. non-standard competition) distance.

That said, I do take issue with Tigerchik's habit of ending a workout at the opposite end of where she gets in. Now THAT is wrong.....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

You want to really get a handle on understanding USRPT (and be shocked at the amount of rubbish there is on forums everywhere about it)...then read THIS by Brent Rushall. Really dig into it and understand what USRPT is and is not. You'll likely be surprised by some of it.

Kudos to you for engaging in your current "all in" approach to swimming and I hope you are enjoying the process!

As a triathlete and Masters swim coach we have used USRPT quite a bit for the past few years seeing good success with the classic type of training with swimmers who race 200-500 . For myself as 63 year triathlete and open water swimmer who races 1-5k I have tweaked it with sets of 100's to 200's. I.E., a set of 20-40 x100 on 15-20 second rest at goal pace teaches sustainable pace. I also use a shorter set of 50-75's such as 6x50 at 1-5k goal pace with 2-5 seconds rest and 30-60 seconds between rounds. Coming from a lifetime as competitive runner this concept isn't new but with swimming this is a ways to be direct and to the point. One area I've seen in competitive swimming especially at the shorter distance has been improvement through the rounds to the finals. For a triathlete or open water swimmer this is direct and focused with their time this is a good option.

Can you share an example of a USRPT set you've given or used (triathlon specific here) for one or more of the below:

750m swim leg of a Sprint Triathlon, open water venue, and indicate as likely wetsuit or non-wetsuit legal.
1500m swim leg...same, you see where this is going?
1.9K swim leg...same, Half Ironman
3.8K swim leg...same, Ironman

For all distances I have used variations of the sets listed above . For the IM swim I use a set of 40x100 at race pace with 10-20 seconds recovery, or 10-20x200 at 30 sr. For shorter distance shorter sets of 50's with 5 second rest 6x50 on 5 seconds rest 30-60 seconds between sets.

I’d drop the 400s and do another race pace set of 25s during the week. I’d also get rid of the drill/technique focused workouts and do an easy recovery swim instead. In reality, the race paced work should be heavily technique focused. It’s part of the reason you watch the clock so closely with every repeat.. If you are holding the same pace on the 400s as the 100s then you’re doing the 100s too slow.

What is your interval for the 100s when you held 1:39?

Tim

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I've read that PDF many, many times.

Race pace set of 25s? I wasn't expecting that. How many reps...20, 40? Same 20s rest? What starting pace: 100 race pace?

So that would be 3 race-pace sets per week: one of 25s, 50s, and 100s plus 1-2 recovery swims in between, every week.

Note: I do the 50s as 20x50 on 20s rest. Coming in at 43s. I think that's close to a 200 race-pace.



I was using the drill/technique focused workouts as easy days. What would an easy recovery swim look like? I've never done one.



Its not quite the same, but its pretty close (~2s per 100). What would you expect to be the pace difference between 4x400 (30s) and 16x100 (20s)?

I've just been progressing the 100s by about 2s/100 as I manage to hold the pace for 20 reps. This morning my first failure was at #15. I figured it was self-regulating. I always try and pick a pace that I think I can hold for 10-12 reps to start, and go from there.

I've been averaging an increase in 100 pace of about 2s per week since November 1st. This week is no different.



2:00 minute send-off, coming in at 1:39.

As always....I appreciate your input.

I will do sets of 40-80x25 on 30!

That sounds like about 10s rest, yes? What race pace is that for you?

Do you do them to failure USRPT style? If so, how many do you aim for before upping the pace?

Seems like the rest/work ratio would be too soft for any race 400m or longer. And, damn, that's a long time invested to get 2000 yards in at a distance race pace.

Not that I'm against 25's. Even when I'm focused on longer events, I'll put a set of USRPT 25's on the schedule now and then. Or throw a "1/2 set" at the end of a workout. But it's at 100 race pace. Always. Every time. If you're going that short, go for power. (I don't care what distance you plan to race; it's nice to have a little more peak power potential). If you want to get 1000-2000 yards/meters of distance race pace work it, there are more efficient and effective ways to do it than a gazillion consecutive 25's.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

In post 59, Tom wrote this - "Wait. I'm training for Oly distance, not a 400."

"For 1500m repetitions, 50 (rarely), 75, and 100m are the suggested distances. The 25m possibility is just too short to perform without having to perform a huge number of repetitions,which would be a waste of valuable pool time." - Brent S. Rushall, PhD

Looks like traditional swim training to me. None of those are USRPT sets, which is what this thread is about.

How much rest on a set of 25s? How many reps?

30 second interval, so ~16 seconds rest. I'll do an offering of 30 reps, Usually get to between the high teens and mid twenties before failing the set.

If it's the second set of a workout, I'll do a 35 second interval. Otherwise, the accumulated fatigue leads to rapid failure, and insufficient volume of specific work.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Thanks.

I found it in Rushall's PDF, on page 34, right as you posted this. :-) 15s for sub-25m/y, 20s for 50m/y and above. Oddly more difficult to find in that document than I was expecting it to be----And MUCH farther into it, which might account for my difficulty in finding it. I was looking towards the front of the document, thinking it would be front and center.

Ok, so 30x25y USRPT (15s) @ 100y race-pace.

I'm trying to wrap my head around a single 500-750y mainset, when my more standard sets are in the 1200-2200 range. But, I suppose its probably a good idea to do it as a standalone workout and see how I feel before I think about what/if to add to it.

Do you do anything different in warmup to be ready for the intensity of the 25s?

 

It's common for swimmers to race more than a single event at a meet, different strokes, different distances. A USRPT workout might have 1-4 main sets, each targeting a different race.

When you think of it in terms of total distance at race pace relative to the length of the race you're training for, it's actually more than you'd typically do for a 400/500/800/1000/1500/1650.

I don't do anything special to warm up, but I do sprint training regularly. The 100 free is me favorite event, if not my best event. Even when it's not the primary event I'm training for, I keep it in my repertoire.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

When you think of it in terms of total distance at race pace relative to the length of the race you're training for, it's actually more than you'd typically do for a 400/500/800/1000/1500/1650. //


No lie.

I did the set today. Failed once at #10. Finished out the remainder of the 30 close to 19 flat without anymore failures. I was able to push the pace forward for the last 3x 25s to. Low 18.x. Slo I was probably a hair slow. But my back is smoked, and I'm still pretty tired 3 hours later.

Pace was a bit up and down, since I'm not used to swimming that hard and judging the intensity. Also timing with my garmin is a bit variable. Touching with my watch hand and hitting the button with my recovery hand just isn't very precise. A few 10ths matters.

I think you said you use some kind of finger thingy?


Curious what is typical drop-off for these usrpt sets?

20x25: 1:17/100 pace
20x50: 1:26/100 pace
20x100: 1:39/100 pace
4x400: 1:43/100 pace (not usrpt)

Ditch the watch, the pool clock is all you need. I swim noticeably better when i don't try and bother with hitting buttons. Also, I've been swimming a long time and the only time tenths matters is in a race, never been an issue with training.

Pool doesn't have a pace clock.

Besides I like my garmin. It shows that I'm a triathlete. And does all that cool Garmin-y stuff. :-)

The only point about the tenths is assessing failure for the usrpt set. A full second is a big difference in pace for a 25, yes?

Looking back at my times for the set you can see that they start around 18.9 and climb slowly up to 19.9. None of which I could see while swimming, until it tripped over to 20.1.

It's not really the 10ths, but the 1/2 second or so that let's me see I'm slowing down... And with refocus or take a rest.

Depends what your objective is and the methods you are using. For USPRT, especially for any repeats shorter than 100, precise timing is essential. When doing 25's at 100 race pace, the difference between 14.10 and 14.90 might be the difference between "You're right on target" and "You're so far off the pace, you should pack it up and go home immediately."






SportCount Finger Stopwatch. Cheap, simple, accurate, precise, repeatable.





20x25: :56/100 pace
20x50 1:04/100 pace
20x100 1:13/100 pace
4x400 1:16/100 pace
(All SCY)

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Well that's interesting.

So you have a 14% fall off from usrpt 25 to 50 to 100...and a 4% from usrpt 100 to 4x400. I'm pretty much the same except for the 25 to 50 which is only 11%.... Just 20s slower :-). But, since I just started the 25s, it's probably expected they might be relatively underdeveloped (slow). Also, that percent difference is only 1/2 second and I've already noted my timing issues with my watch.

For giggles I looked up men's WR from 50 to 200.... Fall off is about 10% for each doubling for the world's best.

There's a typical drop off, but you're outside what would be in the norm. You need to do more of the faster, shorter repeats. It's probably a combination of swimming alone without a coach on the deck and other swimmers in the water to push you and you haven't gotten comfortable being uncomfortable in the water.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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Thanks. I agree with your comment about not being "comfortable being uncomfortable." that had been my thought process behind adding the 400s... To get over the mental aspect of swimming harder for longer.

But, I did the 25s yesterday as you suggested. That's a solid workout! I'm quite sore today in my obliques. My back is mostly just fatigued.

I was supposed to have a session with Bobby today, but he had to reschedule at the last minute until next week. That's probably jast as well, I'm not sure I'd be swimming my best since I underestimated the effects of the 25s.

Above you mentioned doing easy recovery swims on alternate days instead of drills. Can you suggest something?

Here's the thing with the 400s, you won't be swimming harder. That's part of the reason why you want to do short, fast repeats.

Here's a 2000 yard set that's is based off a meet warm up my coach used to give me:

400 swim w/fins
400 kick w/fins
400 pull

8x50 choice (whatever you want to do) @ 15 seconds rest

4x100 descend 1-4 @ your interval

Hope this helps.

Tim

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A short update. I switched out the 400s in favor of the 25s, as suggested. Currently my week looks like this:

Mon: 30x50 USRPT
Tue: 20x50 chords
Wed: 1600y recovery swim
Thu: 30x100 USRPT
Fri: 1600y recovery swim
Sat: 30x25 USRPT
Sun: 15x50 chords

Current USRPT set Paces (first failure/total completed at pace):
USRPT.25: 18.2 (#14/24) 1:13pace
USRPT.50: 42.5 (#21/30) 1:25pace
USRPT.100: 1:34 (#12/21) 1:34pace


I'm guessing that the USRPT.50 set would really be at 1:23pace for a failure in the 12-14 range (similar to the 25s and 100s). That would put my fall off over distance at 12% per doubling between 25/50/100.

I missed 6 days around Christmas, it took me a about 5 days to get back to pace, and begin to see improvements over paces/reps before the break. Last week was largely re-plowing the ground I'd plowed before the break. This week was the first uptick over my last swims of 2018.

I'd take a day off at least once a week. And add in some variety. Don't get put in a straight jacket of the USRPT protocol. Variety is important for your brain.

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That's kinda funny. I considered the recovery swims, adding in the 25s, and chords to be "variety".

This reply isn't specific to you Tom, although you might be able to help.

I'm just getting back into the water after a prolonged time off. I've been swimming for a couple of weeks and am starting to remember how to do so... haven't drowned yet so that's a plus.

My question in regards to USRPT is how do you go about setting your target time? I've read some articles on how to set it for competitive swimmers, but it doesn't directly apply to a triathlete (or aquabiker in my case). Please forgive me if it's been asked and answered, but after skimming the thread I didn't see it. I have an Oly swim in May and my goal is to not embarrass myself... any suggestions on how I would determine my target intervals? I was going to take my goal pace for the May race and use that for 50's (for example, if I wanted to average 1:40/100y I could start with 50 seconds per 50 plus 20 seconds rest)... start out with 20x50 and see if I can hit the intervals using the USRPT principles (miss 1 sit the next out, miss 2 go home I believe). If I tried that and found I can only get 10 intervals in then I know it might be a bit aggressive. If I can hit all 20 (unlikely) then I know I want to go a little faster. I have the linked pdf bookmarked for reading tonight, but thought I'd throw this out there for some advice before I hit the pool tomorrow as I doubt I'll be able to read the entire pdf tonight.

Thanks for any help you might be able to offer!

Trial and error is what I had to do when I started using USRPT, as I really didn't have relevant race results to work with. Didn't take long to zero in on target times that were appropriate. If you don't get to the mid-teens before failing out, your target was probably too aggressive. If you get to the end of the set (30 reps), or even close (high 20's), you probably need to advance the pace.

Either way, you'll probably be readjusting on a pretty regular basis for a while since you're coming from a low swim fitness state, but suggest that you have some previous swim training.

For an Oly swim, I think you ultimately want to work yourself up to being able to do 15-20 x 125 at a pace that's 3-4sec/100 faster than your targeted race pace before any adjustments for pool vs. open water. For example, If I wanted to swim 1:40/100 in a non wetsuit legal open water Oly swim leg, I'd feel like I need to be able to swim a 1500 @ ~1:33/100 in the pool at less than full effort, which means I'd want to be able to swim a 1500 @ 1:29/100 at max effort. For me, 15-20 x 125 is a bellwether set for an all-out 1500m/1650y/1-mile race effort pace .

There are a couple ways to come at this. By-the-book USRPT would tell you to do 125's at whatever pace you can now, and work your target times down. Or you can work your target pace at shorter distances, then go incrementally longer (in other words, master your goal pace doing 50's, then 75's, then 100's, then 125's.) I've had success both ways. If you're coming from a low fitness state, I'd work pace first, and worry about distance/endurance later. If you start to plateau before you get to 125's, come at it from the other end, doing 125's at whatever pace you can sustain and trying to get faster from there.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I've been doing exclusively USRPT swim workouts since late December. My focus through the first part of this year is pool meets, specifically a 1650y race this coming Sunday and a session with 500 free, 200 free, 200 fly the following week. I have a a huge "base:" former college swimmer, and IM, marathons, and long-distance pool and OWS since. I felt like I could change it up and see what happens. I had a 1500m short pool swim in December, and I just didn't have any "pop" in that race.

From the literature by Rushall, there is still a big aerobic training component doing this kind of practice. The metabolic and circulation systems don't just transition cleanly from pure sprints (Creatine-Phosphate system) to long spring (ATP plus glucose) to aerobic lipolysis (long efforts). There's still aspects of each going on in each of the training repeats, even doing 25's and 50's.

Most of my access is to a 25 yard pool with warm water, narrow lanes, shallow depth, and lots of chop.

If I'm doing 100's or 50's, I just set my old Timex IM watch timer function for the total time I need to get, pace + :20 rest and set on repeat. I should see :20 on every count-down on the watch. No reset needed on each.

100's: set the watch for 1:27y or 1:35m, for intended mile pace of 1:07y or 1:15m.
50's: :31y or 34m for 500y or 400m

I also do 75's (mile pace) and 25's (200 free and fly). I set the watch for 1:10y/1:15m or :35y (:40 for fly), and couple it with the pace clock, so I see the pace clock on the far side, and the watch on the near side.

I also found that the new suit I got the other day has slowed me about :01-:02/ 100. It's one of those TYR polymesh suits, whereas before I was wearing a square-leg endurance fiber suit that was more snug.

Later on this year, I plan to transition to some longer pool and OWS swims, but also come on back down to swim USMS Long course nationals in Mission Viejo in August. I doubt my distance base will be affected.

Currently, my RHR is about 48 and my BP is about 110/70.

Gary and Tim are the experts....way more than me. So, I can only relay my experiences over the last year.

Gary already hit the pacing bit. The reality is that you just need to pick a pace, and work from there. If you've done a race in the not to distant past, then use that race pace as your starting point. If you complete all 30, next time subtract 3s/100. If you only manage 8 or something before you fail...add 2s/100 next time out. It won't take long to find the sweet spot.

My other experience is that with USRPT you need the swim base or endurance to be able to complete the set before you will see gains from the set. What I mean by that is that if you don't already do 30x100 or some other version of 3000y+ in a swim, then initially you may not see gains in pace in a 30x100 USRPT set. It seems to take 2-3 weeks of working the set distance before I start to see measureable progress by USRPT standards.

I tried starting with short repeats last year, and working up to longer repeats. I started with 25s, then 50s, then 75s and ultimately 100s. I did each for about 6 weeks before graduating to the next length. In each case when moving to the next distance, I saw a plateau (or even a backslide) in pace at the new distance for about 3 weeks. After that, I would begin to see improvement (increases in time to first-fail, eventually leading to upgrades in pace once I exceeded the 20 minimum).

I would also caution against upgrading to the next pace too quickly. Be sure that you've really got the current pace "in the bag" before pushing to the next level. There have been a few times when I just barely made the 20, and upgraded the next time out....only to fail out really early (like #8 or some such). You should be able to cruise past #20 without too much effort....maybe failing in the low-mid 20s...before upping the pace.

I think a good pace increment is about 1s/50.

I like the structure of working several different repeat distances in a week. As noted above, I'm currently doing 25s, 50s, and 100s. I think they all complement each other. The 25s help the 50s, and the 50s help the 100s. I do one set of each, most every week. But, recovery from each is key, as is being fresh from any bike or run. I've taken to scheduling my hard bike/run workouts immediately AFTER my USRPT swim days, and leaving 24-36 hours before the next USRPT swim.

When I've done nothing but the same repeat distance (eg, all 100s), I plateau pretty quickly.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am going to experiment with it tomorrow... it’s somewhat liberating hitting the pool without an IM I’m mind. I feel like I have more time to experiment and just enjoy myself. I think I will just pick a pace and see how it goes and adjust from there. I love the idea of the 125’s, if only to mess with people by stopping on the wrong end of the pool!

Ugh! I hate that! Messes with me when I do it... And when other people do it and we are sharing a lane. :=P

Yesterday, I tried X x 100y @ 1:27 (goal pace 1:07 for the 1650 or OWS mile). I felt like crap and I was pretty slow, and hung it up after 12 or so. I thought that maybe the suit I had was dragging me, since it is a TYR polymesh suit that's a bit too big.

Today, I did 40 x 50y with the repeat timer on my watch set at :54, to get that extra 0:00.5/50 that I thought the suit slowed me down (intended pace was :33-34). I ended up rocking them all at about :32. I saw :22 on every finish, and just stopped at 40 for 2000y race pace. I was also trying to be a bit smoother and work on my turns, so maybe that was why I was faster than yesterday. I tried to hammer the last two 50's as a test of concept of really closing the race fast. I put in much more effort for sure, but wasn't that much faster at all. Just shows that the important thing about a mile is closing smooth, and the speed will take care of itself.

I think what's NOT included in the literature by Rushall is that an extended amount of repeats allows for slight technique variations and strategies in each repeat. That's actually what happens in 1500m/1650y pool races and OWS, where racers are doing different things at different stages, and adapting/reacting to those changes are essential. I would think this is particularly important in OWS, as water conditions change, perhaps requiring shorter or longer strokes, or maybe a swimmer's plan is to hammer 200m every 1000m or so. Something to think about: you can try slight changes in tempo, kick, stroke pattern, breathing, etc, to mimic race conditions.

Well, that, and the fact that your work:rest ratio was much more conducive to going faster ;)

I use 50's on ~20 seconds rest for back-half-of-200 race pace training, although I'm obviously not making 40 at that pace.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Would you mind elaborating a little more on how you're interleaving this with bike/run?

I normally keep the frequency of disciplines the same throughout the year (3/5/6 swim/bike/run) & move the volume/intensity around depending on the current focus.

Swimming is now easily my weakest leg, so I'm looking for ways to jiggle the schedule around, slotting in an extra swim & improve the quality of the others (2 of them are normally just 5x500's).

Well I gave it a shot today... no specific workout in mind when I got the pool so I went with an easy 400 to warmup (4x100) and then into 20x50. It was a SCM pool and I’m used to yards so I had to make up some numbers on the spot. I decided to use 57 seconds as my cut off. I started in the 53 and 54 range and settled in around 54 and 55. About half way through I lowered the cutoff to 56 in my head and it was crazy obvious when I went over that. I could feel my technique going to hell. That was around lap 16 or 17. I sat one out and finished my set. Overall I’m pretty happy with that. I think I’ll stick with this interval when I do 50’s next week as 55 might be tough to get to double digits. It was nice to feel like I was working hard in the pool again. I’ve missed that sinking feeling (no pun intended) when the fatigue sets in earlier and earlier with every interval and you just know you’re going to be in trouble.

Sure. I do not get improvements in the swim on 3x. I need at least 4x, and 5x(or even 6x) is better. I try not to be out of the water for more than 48 hours....even if that's just a recovery swim, it makes a difference. Ymmv.

My prototypical week is:

Mon:
Lunch: easy recovery run
Evening: usrpt 50s swim

Tue:
lunch: medium run
Evening: 5x5 vo2max bike

Wed:
Lunch: easy medium run
Evening: recovery swim

Thur:
Morning: usrpt 100s
Lunch: mile repeats (or tempo) run

Fri:
AM: recovery swim
Lunch : easy recovery run

Sat:
Am: Usrpt 25s
Long bike with 2x20s SST
Medium run

Sun: easy recovery run

My idea is to enter each USRPT swim as fresh as possible. Then do whatever hard run/bike within the 12 hours or so... And leave time to recover before the next USRPT swim.

My recovery swims are typically:
3x300 (30s) swim with fins, kick with fins, swim
6x50 (20s) descend
4x50 kick (no fins)
100ez

I also like to be sure and swim the day before a USRPT day... I find I swim worse after a day off....and better the day after a recovery swim.

Thank you for this thread as incorporating these concepts into my training is producing results.

Background; I’m a former freestyle sprinter than can no longer sprint, now 47. I can cruise at 1:35/100y all day, but struggle doing 10x100 on 1:30 sendoff. Recently swam a 1500m TT at a local master meet, coming in at 23:14 (1:25/100y). Focusing on Olympic distance in 2019.

My three MS for the week:
20x100 on 1:20, 20” rest
40x50 on :40, 10”
80x25 on :20, 5”

Easy 100 midway through the 50s and 25s to keep my focus.

I felt the fatigue during the last 500 of each set. The 100s were the hardest, but I touched everything on time (subject to deck clock sweep and fatigue fog bias) and left on time every time.

Am I on the right track? What should I do differently?

Scott

The last time I really buried myself in fatigue it was a swim that finally broke me.

Running BarryP style + TrainerRoad doesn't leave a lot of margin for quality swimming. 1 quality +2 'just get to the pool' has been about it.

Given your recent 100/100 post, what's your thoughts on usrpt frequency & fatigue? I'm somewhat thinking I should treat it like a vo2 session on the bike, ie. One or two per week at most unless I seriously trim bike/run volume.

From an overall fatigue standpoint, I haven't found usrpt style swimming to be difficult to manage. It hasnt ever impacted my ability to bike or run even later the same day. It's quite typical for me to do usrpt 30x100s in the morning and then do a long run, or 4x mile repeats run, or 5x5 style vo2 bike session later in the day. That's my normal Thursday.

Those run or bike sessions are never compromised by the swim earlier in the day. However, the reverse order will seriously compromise my swimming. I need to leave 24-36 hrs between a hard/long run/bike session and the next usrpt swim.

So, yes I totally agree that you need to manage run/bike stress to leave yourself fresh enough to swim well. But, the total fatigue of the usrpt sets isn't a big deal to recover from and manage through the week.

ETA: What I think killed my swim over the last 6 weeks was doing all the doubles, as well as taking NO days off. My reaction to a poor swim set was to back off on the swimming... Maybe cut the set short... Then skip the next recovery swim day hoping to recover for the following usrpt set. So, swim volume suffered, and I started missing quality sessions too (or cutting them short). I swam 40kyds in January and, was on pace for closer to 50kyds before it started going to shit. But, I only managed 25kyds in Feb. My usrpt paces have fallen off almost linearly with my drop in average volume.

Thanks, that's really helpful.

Generally I've reserved mornings for running, but I know that I swim a whole lot better if I'm fresher... Plus if I feel like I'm pushing the edge it's a lot easier (for me) to ride/run easy than swim.

Am I on the right track? What should I do differently?

Scott
My three MS for the week:
20x100 on 1:20, 20” rest
40x50 on :40, 10”
80x25 on :20, 5”

I would say that those 3 sets are basically the same sets, I think the goal of USRPT is to up the pace as the distance goes down, not the rest. Nothing wrong with what you did, just that they all will only reinforce that 1;20 pace, not build on it. Maybe keep the ;20 second rest on all, but go 38's on the 50's, and 18/17 on the 25's. Might triple up and get those 1;20 100's to feel a lot easier...

Variety is the spice of life. Echoing what Monty wrote, it’s not all about just doing the same exact pace at different distances. You can swim significantly faster on the 25s versus the 100s. On the 25s, you should be getting almost 1:1 rest. And for the rest you just want to add 20 seconds to whatever your hold pace is. That is an important feature of the sets.

You’ll also find that if you do the same exact sets over and over again you won’t see as much gains if you varied up what andnhow you are doing it. Check out Sprint Salo for a little more information on this.

Hope this helps,

Tim

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so folks i have a great device to do this type of training. no need to stop and look at watch (screws stroke up) or look at wall clock guessing time. I am using marlin platysens which gives audio feed back to me in the pool on every lap. As soon as my lap is over race pace, I stop, rest and try to get back to pace again.

https://platysens.com/marlin/