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Paraffin: The next secret weapon?
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So Velo just did a test of lubes and the winner was... paraffin wax! I've long been aware that a few eccentric and OCD cyclists would engage in elaborate chain prep rituals involving hot wax, but I always figured it would be too much of a PITA. But now that I'm getting, ahem, a bit older, and I train harder to go slower, I start looking for free speed in whatever nooks and crannies I can find -- such as drivetrain efficiency. The velo test found a 3 watt difference between various lubes under ideal conditions, and a 6 watt difference under dirty conditions.

I know there is regular discussion of marginal exotica such as ceramic bearings, but drivetrain efficiency isn't a very sexy topic even though I've long felt that the difference in efficiency can be substantial between a really nice running drivetrain and a dirty, poorly maintained one.

The velo article really talks up the wax, despite the fact that the best conventional lube, Rock n Roll Gold, was only 1/4 watt slower. There's also some pretty mixed feedback on wax on the interwebs, there are people saying they only get 50-100 miles out of a wax job rather than the 650 miles mentioned in the article. I think very few of us would be willing to do all the work of using wax to gain only 1/4 watt. It seems the real potential for gaining watts is under less than ideal conditions; wax was about 2.5 watts better than Gold when tested under dirty conditions, and over 4 watts faster than some other lubes.

On the one hand, it seems like a no brainer to at least do some simple things to maximize drivetrain efficiency, such as using a faster lube, and if you have a choice between purchasing a chain that's more efficient right out of the box and one that's less efficient, why not buy the faster chain (see the paid reports at friction facts for more details)? On the other hand, if waxing can give me an extra edge, why not? Is it really worth the hassle?

So who's going to be boiling crock pots of wax in search of those last few watts, and who thinks it's a crock of crap?
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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How much racing do you do in "less than ideal conditions?" What are they talking about when they talk about "less than ideal conditions?"

I doubt seriously that for triathlons or TTs that, if you do a reasonable job of keeping your drivetrain clean and lubed, that switching over to wax will make much difference.
Last edited by: bobby11: Feb 5, 13 8:26
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Back in the day lots of people used paraffin, then dedicated chain lubes came out and it went away. One of the driving forces was modern chains, they don't like to be reconnected and you have to break the chain to use wax.

Now that their are decent reuseable links for most chains its not hard to use wax Buy 2 chains and a dedicated pot. wax both and use one, leaving the other buried in the wax. When its time to switch heat the wx , remove the chain, put in the other and let it sit until the process is repeated. Should take 20minutes every time and you always have a chain ready to go.

The other thing is find one of the small onetime use packets of chain lube and toss it in your saddlebag. With wax it'll go from perfectly quiet to cat in a blender noisy within a hundred yards. Having a small packet of lube will be a lifesaver. A big benefit is wax is very clean on the drivetrain.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
So Velo just did a test of lubes and the winner was... paraffin wax! I've long been aware that a few eccentric and OCD cyclists would engage in elaborate chain prep rituals involving hot wax, but I always figured it would be too much of a PITA. But now that I'm getting, ahem, a bit older, and I train harder to go slower, I start looking for free speed in whatever nooks and crannies I can find -- such as drivetrain efficiency. The velo test found a 3 watt difference between various lubes under ideal conditions, and a 6 watt difference under dirty conditions.

I know there is regular discussion of marginal exotica such as ceramic bearings, but drivetrain efficiency isn't a very sexy topic even though I've long felt that the difference in efficiency can be substantial between a really nice running drivetrain and a dirty, poorly maintained one.

The velo article really talks up the wax, despite the fact that the best conventional lube, Rock n Roll Gold, was only 1/4 watt slower. There's also some pretty mixed feedback on wax on the interwebs, there are people saying they only get 50-100 miles out of a wax job rather than the 650 miles mentioned in the article. I think very few of us would be willing to do all the work of using wax to gain only 1/4 watt. It seems the real potential for gaining watts is under less than ideal conditions; wax was about 2.5 watts better than Gold when tested under dirty conditions, and over 4 watts faster than some other lubes.

On the one hand, it seems like a no brainer to at least do some simple things to maximize drivetrain efficiency, such as using a faster lube, and if you have a choice between purchasing a chain that's more efficient right out of the box and one that's less efficient, why not buy the faster chain (see the paid reports at friction facts for more details)? On the other hand, if waxing can give me an extra edge, why not? Is it really worth the hassle?

So who's going to be boiling crock pots of wax in search of those last few watts, and who thinks it's a crock of crap?


Right...and good ol' cheap and plentiful 3-in-1 oil was within less than 1W of the paraffin as well IIRC. That's GOTTA be the "bang for the buck" leader in the non-paraffin selections

They didn't test 3-in-1 in their "durability" test, but judging on past experience, I know which one I would expect to last longer between applications, if comparing it to paraffin. As they said in the article, you might get about a half dozen rides on the paraffin before having to redo it and when it "goes", it goes FAST.

One other thing I'd have liked to have seen in their durability test is for the chain to be shifted up and down the cassette. IME, that sideways flexing really "works" the paraffin and causes it to degrade and "go away" faster (i.e. flake off).

That said, I might have to dig out that old can of paraffin that I mixed some moly powder into to do some "1 day" chain treatments for "A" events ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Feb 5, 13 7:57
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Wax just doesn't stay on that long. If you are doing short weeks you'll be relaxing once a week, with long days thrown in, more often.

But hey, doesn't hurt to try it out and see what your experience is like.

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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You could always have a "race day" chain that is waxed and use a regular, oiled chain for training... That way you get the efficiency when you need it and the durability when you want it. Just thinking....
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
...One of the driving forces was modern chains, they don't like to be reconnected and you have to break the chain to use wax.


Actually, there's a guy on rec.bikes.tech that claims to be able to rewax a chain on the bike using a small stick of paraffin and a propane torch...oh, and a really good "blast shield" so he doesn't damage the frame or wheel.

I don't think I'd recommend giving that a try...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Feb 5, 13 8:21
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"As they said in the article, you might get about a half dozen rides on the paraffin before having to redo it and when it "goes", it goes FAST."

Actually, they said they're getting 650 miles, which for most of us is a lot more than half a dozen rides. That sounds within the range where I might actually consider waxing. Every half dozen rides, which for me is more like 200-250 miles? No way!

"That said, I might have to dig out that old can of paraffin that I mixed some moly powder into to do some "1 day" chain treatments for "A" events ;-)"

Of course, the problem with that is you'll have to do a really good job of cleaning your drivetrain before you install the chain. Got to admit that swapping a chain in for a very few A events makes more sense than training on the stuff despite Velo's endorsement.

Hey, a Tom A. blog, cool! Now I can go and hurt my head trying to understand maths that are beyond my pay level! When's your paraffin report? ;-)
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
styrrell wrote:
...One of the driving forces was modern chains, they don't like to be reconnected and you have to break the chain to use wax.


Actually, there's a guy on rec.bikes.tech that claims to be able to rewax a chain on the bike using a small stick of paraffin and a propane torch...oh, and a really good "blast shield" so he doesn't damage the frame or wheel.

I don't think I'd recommend giving that a try...

Sounds like a great way to make your carbon frame look like those Pinarellos with the wavey stays!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Back in the day lots of people used paraffin, then dedicated chain lubes came out and it went away. One of the driving forces was modern chains, they don't like to be reconnected and you have to break the chain to use wax.

Now that their are decent reuseable links for most chains its not hard to use wax Buy 2 chains and a dedicated pot. wax both and use one, leaving the other buried in the wax. When its time to switch heat the wx , remove the chain, put in the other and let it sit until the process is repeated. Should take 20minutes every time and you always have a chain ready to go.

The other thing is find one of the small onetime use packets of chain lube and toss it in your saddlebag. With wax it'll go from perfectly quiet to cat in a blender noisy within a hundred yards. Having a small packet of lube will be a lifesaver. A big benefit is wax is very clean on the drivetrain.

It seemed to me that if you are going to bite the bullet and wax, swapping 2 chains would be the only reasonable way to do it.

So do you wax your chain?
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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That probably would mean... 'rain'
Which, for a year happened to be never but the last 4 months has been EVERY DAMN TIME

lol

still, no, I am not going to wax my chain.

bobby11 wrote:
How much racing do you do in "less than ideal conditions?" What are they talking about when they talk about "less than ideal conditions?"

I doubt seriously that for triathlons or TTs that, if you do a reasonable job of keeping your drivetrain clean and lubed, that switching over to wax will make much difference.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Honestly, I think this thread is doing valuable service to the triathlon community in that, until reading this, a lot of them probably didn't know that you need to clean and wax your drive train. (I'm saying that based on work of done on competitor bikes at Beach 2 Battleship. Folks discovered I'd brought a workstand and a few tools and they were lined up outside my hotel door. I was dumbfounded at the people who would ask me to look at this or that, and would tell me about how this was their "A" race of the year, and while they're telling me, I'm working on their bike that looks like it hasn't had a drop of lube on the chain or even a rag wiped across any part of the bike in a thousand miles. How can people be so clueless about something in which they're so invested?)
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I just douse a rag in mineral spirits, wipe everything down and spray some ProLink Gold ($15 for several years supply on Amazon). Works fine.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, cleaning and lubing the drive train is an easy thing to do, and can save you ~3 watts, and make your crap last a lot longer too.

bobby11 wrote:
Honestly, I think this thread is doing valuable service to the triathlon community in that, until reading this, a lot of them probably didn't know that you need to clean and wax your drive train. (I'm saying that based on work of done on competitor bikes at Beach 2 Battleship. Folks discovered I'd brought a workstand and a few tools and they were lined up outside my hotel door. I was dumbfounded at the people who would ask me to look at this or that, and would tell me about how this was their "A" race of the year, and while they're telling me, I'm working on their bike that looks like it hasn't had a drop of lube on the chain or even a rag wiped across any part of the bike in a thousand miles. How can people be so clueless about something in which they're so invested?)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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bobby11 wrote:
How much racing do you do in "less than ideal conditions?" What are they talking about when they talk about "less than ideal conditions?"

The slightest bit of rain and your wax becomes useless.

I cannot say I believe that 650 mile figure. I don't get that from regular wet lube and wax based lubes last a fraction of the distance that wet lubes do.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
The oil I am using seems to become useless with a bit of rain too.

Beyond a certain amount of rain, everything will "go," but wax "goes" much much quicker in light rain than wet lubes. Slight, brief rain and your waxed chain will be squeaking while an oiled one seems to be unaffected.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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Same guys that did the test will give you a recipe for a super waxed chain. They recommend re-lubing after 200 miles.


http://www.friction-facts.com/ultrafast-overview


There's a link on that page for a diy solution as well. It's a bit too much work for me though.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:

Actually, they said they're getting 650 miles...

I ain't buyin' it...


tttiltheend wrote:

That sounds within the range where I might actually consider waxing. Every half dozen rides, which for me is more like 200-250 miles? No way!

Based on my own experience when I've dabbled with paraffin, that sounds about more like it.


tttiltheend wrote:
Of course, the problem with that is you'll have to do a really good job of cleaning your drivetrain before you install the chain. Got to admit that swapping a chain in for a very few A events makes more sense than training on the stuff despite Velo's endorsement.

A Gatorade bottle with mineral spirits in it and a bunch of shaking does pretty well ;-) Plus, I was thinking more along the lines of having dedicated chains for the paraffin, rather than trying to clean and relube a chain that has had other lubes on it.


tttiltheend wrote:
Hey, a Tom A. blog, cool! Now I can go and hurt my head trying to understand maths that are beyond my pay level! When's your paraffin report? ;-)

Yeah, I thought it might be a good idea to put all the stuff I play with in a single location :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
So Velo just did a test of lubes and the winner was... paraffin wax!

What was the protocol for the testing? Was it a decent test? Link? Might all the sticky stuff that covers our bikes during endurance racing create what the testers would classify as less than ideal conditions?


C
Purveyor of Crank!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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So do you wax your chain?

Long ago, but it wasn't uncommon then. I likely will for TTs, other than that I don't think its worth the effort, but keeping a chain prewaxed for a few events a year isn't a big deal, although I'll add some rust protectant to the mix.

The theory is sound, my guess is for short events, like track racing a worn in perfectly dry chain would be fastest. The bearing surfaces would wear to each other and any lube at that point actually causes more friction. But that only is true until dirt and moisture, including humidity occur, which is going to be rapid. The wax will get squeezed out leaving only a very small amount, just enough to provide some rust protection, but not enough to inhibit free motion of the chain. But for general ridng and racing even wax just doesn't stick around long enough to be practical.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Crank!] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't think Velo needed an introduction. The test is on the home page of the velonews.com site.

Is it a good test? Dunno. The equipment used looks pretty professional. And I don't find the wattage numbers they're talking about for drivetrains implausible (some may disagree but we're not talking large numbers here). A majority of the lubes were essentially the same, within a small fraction of a watt, but there were outliers that were either slower or faster to the tune of one or two watts.

I do question their ability to distinguish the tiny fractions of a watt in difference between some lubes from the noise of different chains and relubing, etc.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]
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I've never heard of waxing a chain before. Would using a fluoronated nordic ski wax improve performance in wet conditions? The fluoros are hydrophobic. This may be cost prohibitive....$70-$90 for 30g-40g of the high end stuff. Low fluoros are much less expensive and much more hydrophobic than basic parafin.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Runski] [ In reply to ]
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Those would be interesting to test, but all paraffin waxes are hydrophobic. Its not really hydrophobia ;-) that helps keep a chain from rusting, its the wax forming a barrier and staying put. Paraffin doesn't do a good job of staying put, but I think its a catch 22. The less "stuff" interferring with the links flexing the less watts needed, but the less protection form the elements.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]
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AmaDablam wrote:
jackmott wrote:
The oil I am using seems to become useless with a bit of rain too.


Beyond a certain amount of rain, everything will "go," but wax "goes" much much quicker in light rain than wet lubes. Slight, brief rain and your waxed chain will be squeaking while an oiled one seems to be unaffected.

I read a really well thought out and fact-based article about chain lubrication (which I unfortunately cannot find right now) which concluded that in dry, dusty environments wax-based lubes are better, but in humid/wet environments oil-based lubes are better. The thought is that oils, or any liquids really, will trap particulate out of the air and eventually raise the friction between moving parts with a grindy, sandpapery texture effect. Wax will both attract less particulate and will also "shed" the sandpapery surface as it peels off the chain with use. In contrast, moist environments tend not to have much particulate in the air (plenty of other wet surfaces for stuff to stick to) so the primary friction enemy is moisture getting into the works. In such a case oil, which forms a relatively long-lasting film on the surfaces it's applied to, does a great job of repelling inbound water over a relatively longer period of time.

makes a lot of sense to me, and matches my experience - I was looking this up because I noticed the white-lightning (the lazy man's answer to waxing your chain) I was using didn't seem to be working all that well when I moved to tropical (i.e., dripping wet) south Florida. I switched to Chain-L, and (without any hard data to back this up) it seemed to work better.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [20twende] [ In reply to ]
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That pretty much covers it, unfortunately most of the wax based liquids seem to do a pretty poor job of getting much wax into the chain, where as melting paraffin and soaking the chain in the hot wax works much better, its just a pain to reapply unless you live in Death Valley, where it just might last 600 miles.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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i do remember that thread comparing different lubricants, the outcome of which was that i went and bought a few bottles of 3-in-1

Now, with this latest revelation. It might interest everyone to know that in medicine, we use Liquid Paraffin as a moisturizer in Eczema treatment.
This might be worth exploring since it doesn't cost much more than 3-in-1.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [footwerx] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately liquid paraffin and paraffin wax aren't really 2 versions of the same chemical. Liquid paraffin might work well as a chain lube but it would likely be grouped with the rest of the oils in the study.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In a dry climate they work pretty well with the wax. If you have high humidity or rain, you will have a rusty chain in no time with the wax technique. Been there done that some 40 years ago. Nothing new here folks.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
styrrell wrote:
Actually, there's a guy on rec.bikes.tech that claims to be able to rewax a chain on the bike using a small stick of paraffin and a propane torch...oh, and a really good "blast shield" so he doesn't damage the frame or wheel.

I don't think I'd recommend giving that a try...

Think melted jockey wheels.

Twenty-five years and my life is still
Trying to get up that great big hill
of hope
For a destination
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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I invoke rule #7 of slowtwitch: There is most likely a thread or article already in play regarding most subjects.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...intenance/chain.html
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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So what's the process exactly to apply paraffin to a chain? Do you take the chain off and dip it in melted paraffin?

Also it seems to me some people are confusing paraffin with wax-based lubes in this thread. It's not the same thing, right? In my experience wax-based lubes (e.g. white lightning) are completely useless.
Last edited by: nchristi: Feb 6, 13 2:25
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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You have to heat up the wax in a double boiler or crock pot, soak the chain for a few minutes, let it dry, then reinstall. Never done it myself. Yes, wax based lubes are definitely different.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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What do the chain manufacturers apply to the chain before packaging?
I always found chains to work great right out of the box with whatever they have on it.
After washing, I use pedros road oil. Tried ice wax, and my chain was squeaking after one ride...
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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Chain makers typically use an oil based formula but in testing that has been shown to be slow, but only slow in the context of a few watts from best to worse.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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gibson00 wrote:
What do the chain manufacturers apply to the chain before packaging?
I always found chains to work great right out of the box with whatever they have on it.
After washing, I use pedros road oil. Tried ice wax, and my chain was squeaking after one ride...

Quote:
New chains come pre-lubricated with a grease-type lubricant which has been installed at the factory. This is an excellent lubricant, and has been made to permeate all of the internal interstices in the chain.
This factory lube is superior to any lube that you can apply after the fact.
Some people make the bad mistake of deliberately removing this superior lubricant. Don't do this!
The factory lubricant all by itself is usually good for several hundred miles of service if the bike is not ridden in wet or dusty conditions. It is best not to apply any sort of lube to a new chain until it is clearly needed, because any wet lube you can apply will dilute the factory lube.

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Should have said "clean your cogs and chainrings", I figured you meant keeping a special chain in reserve for A races, I think this makes more sense than using wax for training and having to swap every 2-300 miles. If folks are going to save a watt or two here and there with cable routing, aero brakes, bolt on skewers, and clean cable routing, why not save a couple of watts with a special chain? It all adds up, especially for us folks without 350-400 watt ftps.

Have your blog bookmarked and will check in from time to time.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
Didn't think Velo needed an introduction. The test is on the home page of the velonews.com site.

Is it a good test? Dunno. The equipment used looks pretty professional. And I don't find the wattage numbers they're talking about for drivetrains implausible (some may disagree but we're not talking large numbers here). A majority of the lubes were essentially the same, within a small fraction of a watt, but there were outliers that were either slower or faster to the tune of one or two watts.

I do question their ability to distinguish the tiny fractions of a watt in difference between some lubes from the noise of different chains and relubing, etc.

The teaser is on the velonews home page, but is there a link to the test info, or did you read it in the mag? Maybe I'm missing it?

The results you describe profit the business of the tester. Jason Smith incorporated Friction Facts in June 2012. Friction Facts sells waxed chains. Velonews hired Jason Smith to perform the test. If anything other than wax won the test, Jason Smith is out of business, so there's incentive to find specific results. Can you tell by reading the test info if anything was done to blind the test in order to protect from prejudice?


C
Purveyor of Crank!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [gibson00] [ In reply to ]
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It's smells and feels a little bit like cosmoline. It's probably different but similar. Pure speculation, though, don't quote it as gospel.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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when I started riding in the early 1980's chain waxing was sort of popular, especially with bike tourists. It's kind of a big freaking mess as you have this molten pot of filthy wax to contend with After the wax dries and mixes in with the residual crap left on even a clean chain it tends to flake black wax off all over the bike, rider, back of the car, etc. I'm no neat freak but it's a big damn mess.

There are good and valid reasons why chain waxing went the way of nail in cleats. One of those tin man style oil cans full of motor oil cut with paint thinner and a gallon of diesel to clean things up works pretty well for me.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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I used to wax my chain back in the mid 80's. It was a pain to do and I would get one week max in so cal. I do remember a few rides that the lube did wear off and it basically killed the chain and the wear on my drivetrain was also an issue.

I like the rock and roll gold though as it is almost as good and a lot easier. I have already been using the FinishLine ceramic wet so I was already using one of the better lubes for the endurance rating.

That being said if I had an A event I would definitely do the wax as it would last long enough for that one event and it is not that hard to do once in a while.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Crank!] [ In reply to ]
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Crank! wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
Didn't think Velo needed an introduction. The test is on the home page of the velonews.com site.

Is it a good test? Dunno. The equipment used looks pretty professional. And I don't find the wattage numbers they're talking about for drivetrains implausible (some may disagree but we're not talking large numbers here). A majority of the lubes were essentially the same, within a small fraction of a watt, but there were outliers that were either slower or faster to the tune of one or two watts.

I do question their ability to distinguish the tiny fractions of a watt in difference between some lubes from the noise of different chains and relubing, etc.


The teaser is on the velonews home page, but is there a link to the test info, or did you read it in the mag? Maybe I'm missing it?

The results you describe profit the business of the tester. Jason Smith incorporated Friction Facts in June 2012. Friction Facts sells waxed chains. Velonews hired Jason Smith to perform the test. If anything other than wax won the test, Jason Smith is out of business, so there's incentive to find specific results. Can you tell by reading the test info if anything was done to blind the test in order to protect from prejudice?

I think you need to go back and find the article on Jason and Friction Facts. He's not getting rich off of selling chains and the ones he sells aren't waxed (there is multistep process he goes through). He's a hobbyist friction tester with a significant chunk of money invested with little to no chance of ever recouping that money. Think of him like AFM and his tire testing.

Jason does sell his results for ~$10. And the chains he's maybe making less than $10 after all the labor so let's call it $5. He has around 50k invested in equipment. I'll let you do the math on that one.

BTW I don't know him, never met him and haven't bought one of his reports (yet). But I appreciate people like him and AFM, because they help take the guess work out of the equipment choice equation of performance.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You missed this classic Sheldon Brown post on chains: http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

The ultimate cleaning & lubing method for the truly OCD cyclist!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
You missed this classic Sheldon Brown post on chains: http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

The ultimate cleaning & lubing method for the truly OCD cyclist!

I've posted that link half a dozen times on this forum, so I didn't here.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Crank! wrote:
tttiltheend wrote:
Think of him like AFM and his tire testing. .
...I appreciate people like him and AFM, because they help take the guess work out of the equipment choice equation of performance.

The AFM testing was double blind, wasn't it? Double blind methodology was developed to protect data from imperceptible personal bias. Does anyone know if the chain lube tests were double blind? If so, like you, I appreciate Jason and everyone who provides data instead of superstition. If not, bias and inattention to detail cast suspicion on the findings.


C
Purveyor of Crank!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Crank!] [ In reply to ]
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No the AFM tests were not double blind. My aero field testing is not double blind. The chain tests were not double blind. I've seen wind tunnel testing of wheel that were not double blind (pretty much impossible to do). That doesn't make the data any less reliable or usable IMHO. If you want to choose to hold this standard to everything that is your prerogative. For my purposes, and wallet, I'll take these tests and use the data in the manner that best suits my needs.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
That doesn't make the data any less reliable or usable IMHO.

your opinion is then contrary to all the scientific world. One of the biggest issues, imo, with sports testing is the total lack of scientific rigor. It makes nearly all the data suspect.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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npage148 wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
That doesn't make the data any less reliable or usable IMHO.


your opinion is then contrary to all the scientific world. One of the biggest issues, imo, with sports testing is the total lack of scientific rigor. It makes nearly all the data suspect.

With regards to physiological testing I agree. Placebo and double blinded. I'm not arguing that. However this stuff is done on someone's dime and there are not university grants written to study aerodynamics of bikes, friction of chains, Crr, etc. So what do we do. We apply field testing and known mathematical models to the data to verify it as closely as we possibly can. Can we be sure that the data is 100% reliable, no. Can we still use the data to make some equipment decisions, I say yes. If you don't like it, don't use it. I'm really not here to argue about your personal preference.

For me I'll be using Pro-Gold on a clean chain from now on, with a low Crr tire and latex tubes on a torroidal rim with a disc on the back. I'll also be using my 20 yr old Bell Vortex helmet because it blew everything else out of the water, for me, in my field testing. YMMV.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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npage148 wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
That doesn't make the data any less reliable or usable IMHO.


your opinion is then contrary to all the scientific world. One of the biggest issues, imo, with sports testing is the total lack of scientific rigor. It makes nearly all the data suspect.

Right, so how many physics experiments are double blind?
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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im too busy waxing my dolphin every day to worry about having to wax my chain too.

who's smarter than you're? i'm!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I am not going to wax my chain.

Jack,

Come on. Aren't you a slave to every last watt?? This should be cat-nip for you.

Really disappointed to hear! :)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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bit of a necropost -

Styrrell, where does one buy paraffin? I'm on Amazon and I'm not sure that I'm looking at the right stuff (unless I want my chain to smell like lavender).

On a side note, double blind implies that there are two people being 'blinded'. Most of these tests would just be 'blind' because the researcher is the only person who can affect placebo.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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bradl016 wrote:
bit of a necropost -


Styrrell, where does one buy paraffin? I'm on Amazon and I'm not sure that I'm looking at the right stuff (unless I want my chain to smell like lavender).

On a side note, double blind implies that there are two people being 'blinded'. Most of these tests would just be 'blind' because the researcher is the only person who can affect placebo.

No offense, but your Amazon search skills leave a bit to be desired. Here you go. Also available in pretty much any hardware store.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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bradl016 wrote:
bit of a necropost -

Styrrell, where does one buy paraffin? I'm on Amazon and I'm not sure that I'm looking at the right stuff (unless I want my chain to smell like lavender).

On a side note, double blind implies that there are two people being 'blinded'. Most of these tests would just be 'blind' because the researcher is the only person who can affect placebo.

Any grocery store sells it in the canning jars section, it's often called "Gulfwax" and is used on top of jelly, which is a better place for it than a bike chain. It's good for cleaning off klister also and lubricating sliding patio doors. Just sucks for a bike lube.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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I don't understand why you say that, especially if it was applied maybe 48 hours before a race?

Kinda like my race wheels, not an every day piece of equipment
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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bradl016 wrote:
I don't understand why you say that, especially if it was applied maybe 48 hours before a race?

Kinda like my race wheels, not an every day piece of equipment

It's OK I guess, just kind of a messy affair. It used to be popular with bike tourists to dunk the chain in melted wax and then bore people at the snack stop with tales of how great it works. I can't imagine having the time or basic organizational skills to use a special chain lube for a race, I'm happy to show up with the correct shoes and some Wolf's head 30 weight mixed with paint thinner dripping off my chain.

So no, nothing wrong with it at all I guess. Just don't ignite your garage melting that stuff, it's petroleum based.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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So I hear - thanks for the warning.

You're not too impressed with Velo's test that rated paraffin as the fastest lube?
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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    I used to do the wax thing, 25+ years ago. Not critical enough for the hassle in my case, I mostly race off-road now, and if conditions are bad enough in a trail race, I take my Spot belt drive SS. ;) On the Rock n Roll lubes, I had a couple of bottles that I got at a race when the stuff was a new product, and the wax would clot and not even mix if the ambient temp was less than about 80! This was both a Gold and a Blue version, so I hope they've adjusted. I just keep the drive-train's cleanish and Pro-link gold, or Boeshield T-9.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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bradl016 wrote:
So I hear - thanks for the warning.

You're not too impressed with Velo's test that rated paraffin as the fastest lube?

I did not read it, but really who cares I assume it's just a smidgen of difference. I have so much more power to gain by just putting more effort into my training, chain lube is the least of my worries.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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>I don't think I'd recommend giving that a try...

Damn, I was hoping you'd bite, and was looking forward to a picture of your oh-so-precious S5 in a Dali melted-clock-like state.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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That would make it a Pinarello.

Styrrell
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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If you keep a bike chain clean, lubricate it with light oil and wipe off the excess and replace it before it wrecks the cogs, it's really all you need to worry about. It's a drive system borrowed from farm machinery, it's not real elegant.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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That is the same argument that people use to justify racing with Gatorskins... It takes a little bit of effort to switch and you go faster.

I guess everyone is different
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [bradl016] [ In reply to ]
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bradl016 wrote:
That is the same argument that people use to justify racing with Gatorskins... It takes a little bit of effort to switch and you go faster.

I guess everyone is different

Couple watts maybe? At my current herculean output that would be just over half a percent. Maybe 20 seconds for a 40k, if everything is all simple and linear and I got the decimal right. So, I guess maybe that is a fair bit.

Gatorskins are just unpleasant. I'd quit the sport if I had to use them all summer.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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It will be funny when everyone's bikes are covered in wax bits. Unless you are in the Olympics, training effect will give you the edge. Keep your regular lube. ProGold may suck, but it extends the life of chains.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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corneliused wrote:
Right, so how many physics experiments are double blind?

Not double blind (because natural interactions aren't subject to the placebo effect), but there are LOTS of instances in physics where the researchers do blind analyses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...xperiment#In_physics
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Crank!] [ In reply to ]
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Jason Smith incorporated Friction Facts in June 2012. Friction Facts sells waxed chains. Velonews hired Jason Smith to perform the test. If anything other than wax won the test, Jason Smith is out of business, so there's incentive to find specific results.

He isn't a hack. I've bought his full test results (a bargain at $10, but I don't think the Velo test is in there) and he appears to be very thorough. He intends to make a living doing objective friction testing of bike components... not selling chains.

He makes very little money on the chains and he even gives you the formula and procedure if you want to do it yourself.


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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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It seemed to me that if you are going to bite the bullet and wax, swapping 2 chains would be the only reasonable way to do it.

Actually makes more sense to do 4 at once and rotate them. Swap the chain weekly, and rewax them all monthly. When your chains are worn out, then replace the cassette also.

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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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How do your chains look after coating them in wax?

I have experimented with waxing chains for some time, and it operates fine. However it does not resemble the UFO chains seen on pro bikes. The UFO chains looks white with a rough surface, almost as if someone used sanding paper on them. My chains look more like there is a 'layer of candle wax on them' , and looks more transparant. Maybe this has to do with the wax not being 100% paraffin? (it was taken from candles).

I am curious to your experiences.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
How do your chains look after coating them in wax?

I have experimented with waxing chains for some time, and it operates fine. However it does not resemble the UFO chains seen on pro bikes. The UFO chains looks white with a rough surface, almost as if someone used sanding paper on them. My chains look more like there is a 'layer of candle wax on them' , and looks more transparant. Maybe this has to do with the wax not being 100% paraffin? (it was taken from candles).

I am curious to your experiences.

Not rruff here but I've been following his method. It's my understanding that the UFO folks sprinkle PTFE powder on the exterior of chains once they are waxed hence the white roughened surface. Rruff is using straight paraffin at 220*F or so and with that method if you give the hot chain a wipe down it will be as you say transparent. I've just gone through my third cycle of paraffin waxing on 3 different bikes and am very happy with the results. The chains have been run 400+ miles between treatments and still showed good lubrication at the time of re-treatment. I use paper towel and 99% isopropyl alcohol to wipe them down carefully before the re-treatment process. It's so nice to handle and transport a bike without a messy chain.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reply Hugh!

I'v got some specific questions, I hope you can help me with this:

- At what temperature do you remove the chains from the paraffin? I assume this is at 220F as well. However, to me it would seem that the wax is so thin at that temperature, it would immediately 'stream out' of the chain. I experimented with letting the wax cool down a bit before removing the chain. However, considering your good mileage your method might be better ;)

- How is the sound of your chain? For me, the chain sounded very smooth and practically noiseless. Ater about 150km (100miles) it started sounding a bit 'dry'. It is definetely different than a 'traditional dry chain', and it still moved very smoothly. I thought the sound meant it needed re-waxing, but I heard some people state that waxed chains always sound a bit 'dry'. Just wondering, how do your chains sound? And at what point do you consider re-waxing?

It is indeed very nice to get rid of the hassle of dirty chains!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
How do your chains look after coating them in wax?

They look clean like there is nothing on them. If there is a visible coating I think it will just leave a mess.

I get the wax and chain pretty hot, ~200F, then let if drip and wipe.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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The wax does stream out of the chain, but that's good. All you want left is a thin coat. I've never tried it any other way, but if there is excess wax on the chain won't it just end up all over?

The chain does sound progressively drier, but it never squeaks like an unlubricated chain would. I've been rotating 3 chains on one bike for 10k miles now and none of them are indicating any wear (checked with a digital caliper). On average I run then 150-200 miles between treatment. I've heard of people stretching that to 500 miles, but I think the longest I've gone is 300 something. No squeaks even after riding in the rain.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
- At what temperature do you remove the chains from the paraffin? I assume this is at 220F as well. However, to me it would seem that the wax is so thin at that temperature, it would immediately 'stream out' of the chain. I experimented with letting the wax cool down a bit before removing the chain. However, considering your good mileage your method might be better ;)

The first couple of treatments I heated to 220*F with the expressed intent to make certain to boil out any water that might be capillaried into the chain. Yesterday, by accident the paraffin made it to 245*F before I checked its temperature. Be careful it heats up very quickly once melted. I went ahead and treated the 2 chains at the higher temperature with not problems. It's the paraffin inside the chain that does the lubrication. Capillary forces will hold that molten wax in the pin/bushing spaces as the chain cools.


Timmetje wrote:
- How is the sound of your chain? For me, the chain sounded very smooth and practically noiseless. Ater about 150km (100miles) it started sounding a bit 'dry'. It is definitely different than a 'traditional dry chain', and it still moved very smoothly. I thought the sound meant it needed re-waxing, but I heard some people state that waxed chains always sound a bit 'dry'. Just wondering, how do your chains sound? And at what point do you consider re-waxing?

I notice the chain getting louder within 50k but then it has been consistent all the way to 400+ miles. I suspect I could keep running past 500miles but rather than "push it" I've just done it the first time it was convenient once over 400 miles. So far once at 450 and once at 420 on my bike and a bit less on my wife's and a gal we coach. My wife's and the other gal's chains sat out in a solid heavy rain in transition for the Muskoka 70.3 and were fine for the race and several hundred miles afterwards. No rust, squeaks or other problems.



quote Timmetje]It is indeed very nice to get rid of the hassle of dirty chains![/quote]
It's actually my favorite feature of using paraffin. Tire changes, cassette changes and transport are all so much cleaner operations and say goodbye to "novice marks" on your calves;)


Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks a lot for the help sciguy and rruff, I will definitely try your method again.

One final question, I was wondering how you clean the chain before re-waxing?

Although very clean, there is always some dirt/road debris sticking to the chain (at least in my experience). I tried to clean this off using a brush and some water, but it did not clear all. You can see the dirt in the wax after waxing; it sinks to the bottom leaving a grey layer in the wax. I guess because it sinks to the bottom it is not that problematic. However the wax will inevitably become dirtier. Do you have a special cleaning ritual before re-waxing as well?
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
Thanks a lot for the help sciguy and rruff, I will definitely try your method again.

One final question, I was wondering how you clean the chain before re-waxing?

Although very clean, there is always some dirt/road debris sticking to the chain (at least in my experience). I tried to clean this off using a brush and some water, but it did not clear all. You can see the dirt in the wax after waxing; it sinks to the bottom leaving a grey layer in the wax. I guess because it sinks to the bottom it is not that problematic. However the wax will inevitably become dirtier. Do you have a special cleaning ritual before re-waxing as well?

I'm using high test isopropyl alcohol on paper towels to wipe the chain down before relubing. I keep wiping until the discoloration pretty much stops coming off. No water needed or wanted for cleaning. If you pop the solidified wax puck out of your heating container you can scrape off the thin dirty layer at the bottom to keep your lube cleaner. The nasty stuff will sink to the very bottom so you only need to scrape off a very thin layer.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW Prior to rewaxing I'll heat up the chain, then throw it in some mineral spirits and shake it around a lot. Then just makes sure it's dry and re-wax! Definitely cleans off any of the gunk!

Big Sexy Racing 2018
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Diehl78] [ In reply to ]
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Diehl78 wrote:
FWIW Prior to rewaxing I'll heat up the chain, then throw it in some mineral spirits and shake it around a lot. Then just makes sure it's dry and re-wax! Definitely cleans off any of the gunk!

I'd agree that what you're doing has to be more ideal in terms of getting the chain really super clean. That said, the wipe down seems to be good enough and I fully expect my chain life to meet or exceed that found with old school wet lube methods.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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I buy a new chain every season and paraffin wax it to race. I only do a few races so I take it on/off
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Hugh,

Thanks for all the advice, I have already implemented it and got some nice results! The chain is definitely better than last time!

I am thinking of experimenting with PTFE and MoS2 additives. This should make the chain a bit faster, but I mostly just like the tinkering. I live in the Netherlands, and have some problems finding these minerals. Where do you get them from? I have searched the internet in general, ebay, but could only find something on Alibaba. And there you need to buy in bulk which is very expensive :(

Interested in what your experiences are. Thanks!
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
Hi Hugh,

Thanks for all the advice, I have already implemented it and got some nice results! The chain is definitely better than last time!

I am thinking of experimenting with PTFE and MoS2 additives. This should make the chain a bit faster, but I mostly just like the tinkering. I live in the Netherlands, and have some problems finding these minerals. Where do you get them from? I have searched the internet in general, ebay, but could only find something on Alibaba. And there you need to buy in bulk which is very expensive :(

Interested in what your experiences are. Thanks!

Tim,

Glad to hear you're also having a good experience. I have recently purchased 30 grams of PTFE and 10 grams of MoS2 via Ebay and used 5 grams of the PTFE with ~ .45kg of paraffin on the last waxing. I skipped the Moly for this test as it's so black that I was worried that it might tend to mask the presence of contaminants come off a chains I might be rewaxing. So far It's been impossible for me to tell if adding the PTFE works any better. The process becomes easier every time one does it as you learn to wear gloves handling the hot chain, how to uncoil the hot wax coved chain without making a huge mess, etc. I will say that a kg of paraffin goes a long ways so you won't need all that much PTFE or especially moly of you want to experiment. If I remember correctly, the FF people only use 1 gram per pound of the moly and 5 grams per pound of PTFE.

Have fun,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Hugh,

You are right about the FF mix ratio. I would like to try to add the PTFE. I can image you can't really notice it, but it should help, and it certainly looks nice!

Could you show me where you bought yours? Like I said, I can seem to find large quantities. Thanks for the help!

Tim
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [Timmetje] [ In reply to ]
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Timmetje wrote:
Hi Hugh,

You are right about the FF mix ratio. I would like to try to add the PTFE. I can image you can't really notice it, but it should help, and it certainly looks nice!

Could you show me where you bought yours? Like I said, I can seem to find large quantities. Thanks for the help!

Tim

Tim,

I purchased both the PTFE as well as Moly from these folks.

http://www.ebay.com/...?hash=item3f55af1c57

They shipped quickly and the product looks fine. They ship worldwide too.

Cheers,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Any thoughts or experimenting with different grades of refined waxes and melting temperatures? Where would Gulf Wax fit in the tables? Low grade refinement and high melting temp?
Last edited by: scca_ita: Sep 19, 16 20:24
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Re: Paraffin: The next secret weapon? [scca_ita] [ In reply to ]
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scca_ita wrote:
Any thoughts or experimenting with different grades of refined waxes and melting temperatures? Where would Gulf Wax fit in the tables? Low grade refinement and high melting temp?

I believe that it's actually considered a high grade refinement paraffin and the MSDS cites its melting point as 58-62*C so more of an intermediate melting point.. Experimentation is fun but at this point in my life, Gulf wax works so well I'll leave it to others to forge on ahead;) I would say you don't want a "sticker" product as that would tend to pick up more road grit and one wants to avoid that outcome.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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