No argument here - plenty of data out there (a bunch from South Africa for some odd reason) substantiating this. I've said this for YEARS. But, the electrolyte replenishment industry, placebo effect, and crusty white salt on our clothes/face after a race are powerful detractors :-)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

My calves and feet cramp and knot up relentlessly in the pool when training. I've tried many things and sometimes it's better and sometimes it's worse. It's rare for me to be able to go 5000 scy without bad leg and foot cramps.

A good swim for me is when I stop because I've gone far enough and not because my legs and/or feet have seized up.

I've never cramped in a race. I've never cramped biking or running either. I don't cramp in open water. I once started to almost cramp in open water but that was at the end of 5000m. Had I gone 6000m I bet they would have started.

Jay

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45 AG triathlete and terrible BMX racer, Tampa FL

No argument here either. These are the findings one would expect. The fact is, unless there is some underlying renal disorder, the kidneys compensate well for electrolyte losses. I've always thought the large amount of electrolyte supplements used were overkill but fortunately, the kidneys compensate for that as well.
I'm not trying to say that athletes shouldn't use replacement and certainly, if you find you race better taking them, do so by all means. There's nothing wrong with taking full advantage of placebo effect. It may be the edge that puts you over the top.

i never had a cramp in my entire life. longest race was around 7h (mtb), longest training 7h30 (ride)

i usually do olys, and am completely exhausted at the finish line and done for the rest of the day, so i think i can suffer wuite a bit, nevertheless, no cramping

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2012: Norseman. I'm done.

All I know is that I always cramped during the run of Oly and HIM distances, started using Gatorlytes in my bike bottles and haven't cramped since.

Didn't read the article so maybe it's in there, but pickle juice is great for cramps. Doesn't work as a preventative measure, but at the onset of cramps, drink a little bit of pickle juice and cramps will disappear within 30 seconds - believed to have something to do with aiding in the the electrical firing of the muscle. Any old pickle juice will do, but I love the Vlassic Dills!

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"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters." - Paul "Bear" Bryant

Only when it's my time of the month.

I've never really cramped during any distance triathlon. However last year I had ran 2, 100 mile ultra runs where I experienced some of the most intense leg cramps in my life. I'm talking watery eyed, unable to move pain. Turns out it was just bad nutritional planning on my own part because after a slice of pizza, some soup, peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and baked potato dipped in salt I was good to go. (Yes, the aid stations at this particular ultra were great).

@ the user suggesting pickle juice - the reason why it works at replenishing electrolytes is because of the salt content, not really a special characteristic to pickles.

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< Quitting Isn't An Option >

Funny, but the horrible truth is that I've been known to take Midol before going to the pool.

It's also an excellent medication for a hangover.

Jay

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45 AG triathlete and terrible BMX racer, Tampa FL

study I heard about discredited the salt argument as those subjects whose cramps were not alleviated by the salt were aided by the pickle juice - I've never tried it, just a suggestion I heard of that I thought worthy of passing on.

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"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters." - Paul "Bear" Bryant

Absolutely dsimo I agree that it's worthy of passing on, and I wasn't discrediting you at all...as a pickle lover, I occasionally drink pickle juice after a very long run or ride (or just eat a bunch of pickles :) Again, I'm 99.9% certain that it helps because of the salt content again and nothing else.

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< Quitting Isn't An Option >

 crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%).

Doesn't this bit from the study at least suggest that sodium loss could be a factor???

to answer your question, you can read the 75+ other studies with similar findings ...

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Stop the presses!

"that cramping is just one of the many unavoidable risks associated with getting as close as possible to your limits"

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"Go yell at an M&M"

to answer your question, you can read the 75+ other studies with similar findings ...


So they all find that crampers have lower sodium levels, seems like sodium replacement would then be indicated.

No, that electrolyte replacement (for example, they look at other electrolytes like calcium, mag, etc. not just sodium) had NO effect on cramping. Na/K levels have been studied ad nauseum in medicine and they can most certainly be low/high in many disease states, show up in labs (and 0.4 to 1.4% is within normal lab reporting/error and not significant), and can be quite serious (like cardiac issues/renal failure). There are many more issues than "cramping" when so - and of course, it won't be just the muscles used (i.e. ever wonder why a cyclists/runners calf/quads cramp and not the arms if an electrolyte issue?)

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Do you think there is a real difference between 0.1 and 0.4 when the standard dev (or standard error) is 10x to 20x larger than the change

Do you think there is a real difference between 0.1 and 0.4 when the standard dev (or standard error) is 10x to 20x larger than the change

To be fair to the numbers, you left out some +/- there. It was -.1 and +.4, or about for a 40% bigger difference than you quoted.. And I'm puzzled at the standard deviation and why they are different for the two groups? Of course it is within the margins, but does it not at least suggest something might be there??

I understand that people that extend themselves tend to cramp more, I'm one of those people. But when I extend myself, I lose more sodium than if I don't. I get tested quite often, and if my sodium levels test low, I'm more prone to cramping. When I supplement it, I almost always am cramp free. Could it be that for many it is a formula like this; going very/too hard=lower sodium levels=cramping?

I did miss that the crampers were negative and non-crampers went positive. But it really doesn't change the fact that +/- 1SD of sodium change is -2% --1.8% change for the crampers and -2.2% to 3% for the nons. In addition, the difference between the 2 groups is not significantly different statistically even with a pretty big sample size

Doesn't this bit from the study at least suggest that sodium loss could be a factor???

Mark,

I am not an expert, but my guess is that there are possibly those who are more pre-disposed in some way to cramping due to some form of electrolyte imbalance let's say. I know that from your posts here and your past experiences you may be one of those folks. But many in the business, many coaches and many athletes think it's an across-the-board thing: If you are getting cramps, take salt! Consequently, just about everything you read now advocates for triathletes to supplement with sodium. The nutritional business has obliged by putting salt in all kinds of stuff that you can eat/drink while racing or training. This in my estimation is way over-kill and is spreading false information.

My experience: 20+ years of running and triathlon racing at a modest level never any issues of cramping. The only time I ever cramped was in my return to road racing a few years ago. In way over my head with a completely different kind of riding with guys way fitter than me, on a cool day and for a race lasting only about 90 min, legs absolutely trashed by the time we get to the field sprint at the end, I rise to begin my sprint and my calves completely lock up on me in cramp. Dehydrated? Sodium depleted? Neither is my guess. Going way too hard for given fitness or not specific enough training - yes.

My pet theory of why so many triathletes are getting so many cramps: With all due respect, too many triathletes, racing too long, too soon without an adequate base of training and training specificity behind them!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

But many in the business, many coaches and many athletes think it's an across-the-board thing: If you are getting cramps, take salt!\\

Well that is the exact feeling I've been getting from the many threads on this very topic, but from the other side. I have never said anything is across the board, in fact I make sure to tell my expirences along with those that are the polar opposites. Paula, Erin, Dave, and a lot of top athletes over the years do very well with none or little supplementation. They are the model that this other group would have you believe we are all like. But then there is Welchy, Molina, Rapp, and just as many as the other group, that supplement heavy, and do quite well also. Now you have your personal example of cramping, but I ask again, couldn't it have been excessive exercise=sodium loss=cramping?? You have the 1st and last parts of the equation, but how do you know the middle variable is not present too? Do you think all those great athletes I mentioned as salt supplementers were also undwertrained and not prepared for their events?

What i see here is too much religion on both sides of the issue, but more so on no supplement side. Most of the people that defend salt are like me, telling their stories and offering that advice to those that are crampers that ask the question, as one possible solution. The other side just tells them that it is a placebo affect, HTFU, you are cramping because you are out of shape, or cannot pace well. Which are all valid reasons, just not the only ones..

ive had only very minor and temporary cramps and it has always followed some sort of extreme effort I was not prepared for.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Your feeling is precisely why these studies were done. The entire aim of a well designed *scientific* is for reproducibility and answers.

Accupuncture has been around for a thousand years, so must do something, right? But to date, *science* can't reproduce any findings. Doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't "work".

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

What i see here is too much religion on both sides of the issue, but more so on no supplement side. Most of the people that defend salt are like me, telling their stories and offering that advice to those that are crampers that ask the question, as one possible solution. The other side just tells them that it is a placebo affect, HTFU, you are cramping because you are out of shape, or cannot pace well. Which are all valid reasons, just not the only ones.

Mark,

I agree with. I know enough about the science and from my personal experience that I suspect that, there is going to be a range here, and that there will be individuality regarding this. However, I will stick with my thought in the last paragraph of my previous post that amongst many age-group and rec triathletes, the cramping is coming from doing too much, for too long, too soon. Would so many, be having so many problems, if there was a more gradual and rational build-up in training and racing?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Yep.

I've only been training for 5 yrs...but I never cramp. Ever. This last weekend I ran a marathon with very little running base due to injury and a host of other excuses (avg < 15 miles per week running for the entire 6 mths prior) At mile 12 my entire left leg from achilles to glute started cramping HARD....right leg soon followed....didn't stop until I stumbled over the finish line. Well, they eased up a bit when I stopped for 3 mins at mile 22 to swig some cold beer :-)

I just was not prepared for that mileage or the pace that I tried to maintain.

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Re [crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Doesn't this bit from the study at least suggest that sodium loss could be a factor???]

For me, this isn't news either. These reports have been coming out for years and everything I've done in working with athletes prone to cramping, supports these findings. For example: working closely with a nutriton company who reccommends talking 2-3 of their electrolyte tabs per hour during a race (that's 30+ in an IM), to help an athlete overcome his crmping issues in Ironman - to no avail. The "salt tablets" made no difference whatsoever. This example wasn't an isolated case.

I believe more than anything, that athletes go too hard for their ability and this is one of the major causes of their cramping in races - no matter how "hard" they train and even in the same climate as the race, if they go too hard in the race, they have an increased probability of cramping.

Being based in an Ironman town, I see an unusually high percentage of people with very little athletic background, doing a very long race, often on very tough conditions. I can't say that going too long too soon, has ever really crossed my mind as being a cause for cramping, unless the athlete is going too hard for their own good. Sure, it's a "conditioning" thing, but if race intensity is kept to a realisitic level, for the athlete's relative preparation, cramping is rarely an issue.

In the example I used above, the particular athlete I was referring to had a dozen IM's behind him. He's well conditioned, but just goes too hard - won't admit it... He can get away with it in cooler conditions, but not in the heat. He's always covered in salt - but taking salt tabs during the races has not helped, ever.

Now, this point about salt loss (crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Does this take into account the actual sodium levels before the race? ie: if the athlete doesn't take enough salt in, in their regular diet - to meet their own individual needs - they may already be low (for them) when the pre-race sodium levels are checked.

I'm just thinking about how an individual's sodium levels may be a contributor as to why they cramp (combined with riding too hard), but it's more about their daily salt intake (versus personal requirements) than it is about (extra) sodium intake during a race.

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KC
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Re: ive had only very minor and temporary cramps and it has always followed some sort of extreme effort I was not prepared for.

Thanks Jackmott, for your comment, while I was typing my long winded one above.

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KC
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That article is bang on as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, what happens too often to substantiate the old ingest-more-electrolytes-if-you-cramp school are athletes who switch to brand x and all of a sudden don't cramp anymore, forgetting that their bodies are becoming more fit, their muscles stronger, and just maybe the cramping is dissipating because of it. Think back to those early season duathlons where the race is too short to experience cramping due to electrolyte depletion yet you cramp. Why? Simply put, you're not in as good shape as later in the season. Many of us tend to race harder than we train. Chalk it up to adrenaline, but whatever the reason, we are pushing our bodies harder and they complain. A simple solution is to train at least as hard as you intend to race, at least some of the time. Another way to think about it: why is it only the muscles which are working hard cramp? Surely if it were simple electrolyte depletion, all of our muscles would cramp. There is more to the problem than simple electrolyte depletion.

Now, this point about salt loss (crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Does this take into account the actual sodium levels before the race? \\

How would you be able to measure a "difference" if you did not measure before? Just curious as to what other criteria you can imagine?

Now to your example, great. I have dozens more where salt during the race did help the athlete, do I win because I have more examples?

I do not disagree that excessive exercise, prepared or not, can be a cause of cramping. My question is does that activity also excessilely reduse sodium levels too in some people? Here is my example, I just took 2 salt pills and some magnesium before I go to my noon swim. It is a swim that I go too hard in every day of my life, that is what I do. I swim to failure, just like a lot of other swimmers do in workouts. Nothing I would usually do in a race, but swimming to failure is a common training tatic. If I take no salt, I'm likely to cramp at the end, or within the next hour afterwards. If I take my supplements, I almost never cramp, during or after. Now keep in mind I always go too hard and do things I'm not trained for. So how come salt helps me out in this situation, one that I have subjected myself to for 1000's of days in my career. This is no one off expirements, but a lot of data to support that just maybe, there is a relationship to excessive exercise and sodium loss for some.

Maybe you don't have enough salt in your regular diet - for your needs and that's why the supplements make the difference.

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KC
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Another way to think about it: why is it only the muscles which are working hard cramp? Surely if it were simple electrolyte depletion, all of our muscles would cramp./

You see this is the problem with the no supplement side, they have their expirence and assume it should be the same for everyone. It is almost never my working muscles that cramp first, but my stomach one. For whatever reason it is the 1st to go, and I can tell you that it is not pleasant. That is my indicator, and if I went way past the line then the other muscles follow, usually back next, then the actual working ones.

Is it possible that the 100's of stories unlike yours here are valid, and just because you react one way does not make it a natural law??

Maybe you don't have enough salt in your regular diet - for your needs and that's why the supplements make the difference.

A WINNER!!!! This is the one sentence that answers many of the questions about this topic. Boils down to one simple principal. Supplement or not, the needs of the person. And before the no supplement zealots jump on this, I'm not saying it is the only cause of cramping, just seems to be a regular one for many. And I admit that without exercise, and usually excessive exercise, there would not be that loss. Also seems like tempeture plays a role, perhaps it makes normal exercise excessive?

both stories are not complete.

one story - adding some sort of supplement didn't help the cramps (maybe they needed more!)

another story:

A guy was cramping we added salt and then he didn't cramp - maybe he just got more fit and learned to pace better too?


another possibility - its possible that consuming salt prevents cramping for some mechanism we aren't thinking of. it could be something weird like consuming salt makes you slow down (much like just the taste of sugar can make you speed up)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: How would you be able to measure a "difference" if you did not measure before? Just curious as to what other criteria you can imagine?

Of course you need to take a measurement before. My point is that the result of salt loss measured before/after, only reflect that, not the actual level before.

I just have a hard time with this recent trend for people to be taking huge 2-3 salt tablets per hour during races up to 15 hours long, when they don't need to. For my first 10 years of Ironman races, I didn't hear that much about salt tablets, now I hear everyone talking about them, planning to take them, even if they don't experience cramping issues.

I'm convinced there is a relationship with sodium/fluid levels and cramping during races, in some cases. I'm just not sold in the salt tablet idea - not for everyone.

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KC
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Maybe I am an exception, but after a long all out bike ride I can get cramps in the hands, back, arms and feet as well. These cramps can come hours after I finished the bike ride and these cramps can be pretty severe. This happens only from biking. I never cramp after running. It also seems to me that runners have less problems with cramps then triathletes and cyclists but I have no data on this. But I think I see a higher percentage of triathletes with cramps on a half IM, then runners with cramps on the marathon.

And cramps while swimming are also never in the muscles that work hardest. I have never seen someone with cramps in the shoulder muscles while swimming. It probably happened to someone, but it is rare I think.

Re: [Now to your example, great. I have dozens more where salt during the race did help the athlete, do I win because I have more examples?]

That was just an example that I thought was somewhat typical of my overall experience as someone working closely with a large amount of athletes over the years. I have other example similar to yours in which I suggest that maybe you could consider a little more salt in your diet or "if it works, keep doing it"

As an athlete myself, I don't cramp. I wonder why?

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KC
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As an athlete myself, I don't cramp. I wonder why?

Becaues you are a whimp and don't go hard enough...(-; At least that is what one side would have you believe, I just think you are one of the lucky ones. Just like with every variable in human physiology, there are people at the bottom and top of the curves. You can do things to move these people in the other direction, but given certain hardwired programming, will never get all the way to the elite top folks. It can be V02 max, size of mitocondria, muscle fibre makeup, lung capacity, ect.,ect. There are so many variables that determine great athletes, or just the imporvement of average ones. A good coach realizes this, and tailors programs(exercise and nutrition) accordingly.

Ok, it's well know Rapp loves bacon. I doubt he doesn't get enough salt. But you list him as a heavy salt user during races. Explain that.

FYI, a single strip of bacon usually has around 400mg of salt. Low salt bacon still has 200mg.

Ok, it's well know Rapp loves bacon. I doubt he doesn't get enough salt. But you list him as a heavy salt user during races. Explain that.

I don't have to explain it, he does so quite nicely in his many nutrition threads he posts up after races. If you do a search you will find several where he documents every calorie and supplement he takes during an ironman. Suffice it to say, people are quite suprised when they see his sodium intake, but I'm not. There are many others that take even more than he does, and I can gurantee it is not for the placebo effect.

Perhaps then, an athlete with a diet high in sodium requires a higher sodium intake during races?

Yes, I am frequently plagued by cramping when I ride with guys way too fast for me, which is most of the time. The worst case I ever had put me on the ground unable to even get up, wondering at what point I should call 911. I was finally able to walk into town and get a chocolate milk. A pint of milk has more electrolytes than a gallon of Gatorade, plus fat, and protein it does not have at all. With that, I was eventually able to ride the 70 miles back home in survival mode.

I thought it happened mostly when riding in the heat, but I also had cramping on a 12 hour night race at 72F. Being a heavier rider, I need to push harder to stay with the skinny guys in the hills. Usually I get dropped when I run out of glycogen and hit the wall. And so I wonder if glycogen depletion also plays a role.

Perhaps then, an athlete with a diet high in sodium requires a higher sodium intake during races?


Ok maybe, or the simple answer, an athlete may need more sodium than another during training and racing? Does it make sense that if a person needs more sodium during hard training, might just need it during racing?? Is that just too simple to be true?

It might be true... the WHY is what I want to know.

+1 The most common place I notice cramping on the bike is when I have to reach around to a jersey pocket to fish out another bottle or gel. I'll cramp on that entire side, from my waist to my head. Those muscles have not been working hard but when they are stretched they give instant and sever negative reenforcement.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

So you're stomach isn't a "working muscle" while swimming? Also, what's a "stomach one" anyway?

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"One Line Robert"

Ok, it is the ab muscle to get picky. And it doesn't matter if I'm swimming, running or biking, it is the "ab" that cramps first. Of course you use them, but I think the guys point was that the primary muscles are the ones that always cramp, and that is just not true. Just in the few posts since then , you can see that many have the same expirence.

It might be true... the WHY is what I want to know.

Probably more than one answer, but I'm guessing a primary one would be the same one as why do some people have high HCT %? Why do some people have high VO2 max's? Why do some people do really well in the heat and others in extreme cold? Why are some people able to run a 100m in 10sec, and others 26.2miles in 2;05?

Re: Becaues you are a whimp and don't go hard enough...(-; I just think you are one of the lucky ones.

You create your own luck!
Go hard and have fun. mate.

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KC
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Steve.....these guys were covering this way back in 2007 :)
http://www.sportsscientists.com/...-1-theories-and.html

Thanks, Mark.

That whole series on the Sport Scientists blog was a good one. Must read stuff!

Still current as I don't think human physiology has changed much since then! ;-)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Interesting article. I suffer from cramps and they have wrecked two of my most important races last year. Oddly, one was during a half marathon at mile 8. The other started during the final meters of a swim leg in a HIM race...and then it felt like a bullet went off in my leg when I pulled off my wetsuit. Honestly, those cramps were some of the worst pain I could imagine. I was paralyzed in both cases for 10 to 15 minutes. The cramps passed and I was able to finish both races with dissapointing results.

What is ironic is I didn't cramp once during my training (at the same race pace) for either race. I monitor my heart rate so closely that I have started to wonder if anxiety or stress plays some role on some level. On longer races and workouts during the year, I never cramped, even though my speed, fitness and HR were all similar. I see that there is no set resolution towards cramps, but I am in the boat that I will try anything to avoid having that pain again.

Friends and family are all full of suggestions from pickle juice, to salt, to enduralytes, to electrolytes, to bananas, to compression shorts, to yoga, to pinching my upper lip (really that was my MIL's suggestion).

I have tried them all and will try anything to avoid that experience again.

What is ironic is I didn't cramp once during my training (at the same race pace) for either race.\\

I do not know what is causing your cramps in races only, but what I have done and withnessed myself in the past, is that too much water goes in the days and morning before the race. I was always told to" really" hydrate before races, but I neglected to support all that water with the right amoung of sodium. You drink so much water, that it appears that you actually dilute your bodies stores. I did some tests and found out I piss out twice the amount of magnesium of a normal person. Nothing to worry about the doc says, it is all individual. But of course it was something to worry about as I piss twice as much as the average person, like we all do. When you do the trianing we do, you just drink more, thus piss more, so I was doubling up on my losses. Once I started loading water with minerals, I did a lot better race day. And there has been a lot more studies now about hypernutremia and its problems.

And yes, stress can burn up minerals. When I have a cold, flu, or just general bad feelings, I burn through sodium like a wildfire. It is the only other time that I will cramp outside of sport, during bouts of illness. And if I supplement during that time, it has the same affect as in training..

if I cramp it's usually toward the end of a long workout, specifically if that long workout is bike or run and then finishing with a swim. I'll get cramps through the bottoms of my feet or my calves.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

That's interesting. I only get them swimming if my feet and calves have already been hammered with bike or run.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Interesting (and lively, as usual for this topic!) discussion. A couple of quick points/answers:

“My point is that the result of salt loss measured before/after, only reflect that, not the actual level before.”

The pre-race sodium levels were 139.8 (+/-1.8) in the non-crampers and 139.8 (+/-1.5) in the crampers – so there was no difference in pre-race sodium levels.

“crampers’ sodium levels dropped 0.1% (+/- 1.9%), while the non-crampers increased 0.4% (+/- 2.6%). Doesn't this bit from the study at least suggest that sodium loss could be a factor???”

One way of trying to understand whether an apparently small difference between two groups of numbers is significant is to look at the “p-value,” which tells you the probability of getting this difference purely by chance. Most scientific studies consider a result significant when p<0.05, meaning there’s only a 5% chance the result could have occurred by chance. In the case of these this data set on % change in sodium levels, p=0.836. That means there’s an 83.6% chance that difference between -0.1% and +0.4% is just random statistical fluctuation, and a 16.4% chance that it represents a real physical difference.

“the user suggesting pickle juice - the reason why it works at replenishing electrolytes is because of the salt content, not really a special characteristic to pickles.”

One of several reasons that researchers don’t believe that electrolytes explain pickle juice’s effect on cramps is the time frame. In the initial pickle juice study, it took an average of 85 seconds for pickle juice to relieve cramps. Earlier studies have found that it takes at least 30 minutes for small volumes of pickle juice to even leave the stomach, let alone be distributed throughout the body.

“It is almost never my working muscles that cramp first, but my stomach one.”

Stomach cramps are a completely different phenomenon than muscle cramps, with a completely different set of causes. Given that electrolyte levels do affect how quickly fluid leaves the stomach, it wouldn't be at all surprising if you noticed a correlation between electrolyte use and the incidence of stomach cramps.

One last general point (even though I’ve already rambled on far too long): this is a simple correlational study. It most certainly doesn’t disprove the possibility that electrolytes influence muscle cramps through some pathway that isn’t clear to us. But if they are a factor, the question is: why can’t anyone find any solid evidence to show it?

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Alex Hutchinson
www.sweatscience.com

Stomach cramps are a completely different phenomenon than muscle cramps, with a completely different set of causes. Given that electrolyte levels do affect how quickly fluid leaves the stomach, it wouldn't be at all surprising if you noticed a correlation between electrolyte use and the incidence of stomach cramps.

Thanks for jumping in here, but I already explained that it was not my stomach that cramped(not sure that is even possible) but my ab muscles surrounding my stomach. Perhaps you are referring to a side stitch?

And I find it a little puzzling that you got the exact sodium levels in such a large group of athletes. I'm pretty sure I could have two blood tests 10 minutes apart, and get different numbers. You talk in probabilities, what is the probability that all those people had the exact same sodium levels??

I know you don't want to believe in these studies for whatever reason, but if I drew your sodium levels 10 mins apart they would be ... the same. We have millions of chem-7 (for example) panels drawn every day in this country with a really nice set of lab values and understanding of them over the past 50 years. Humans are amazing similar all over the earth in these respects ;-)

Now, what may truly cause muscle cramping may remain a mystery (neurologic, metabolic, mechanical, etc.), and *we* keep looking, but there is NO link found to date in electrolyte depletion. Simple as that. Period.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I never used to get cramps on long rides until a couple of years ago. I could do 100 mi + long rides and never have a worry. Then I started getting bad cramps (quads/calves/hams) at about 60-80 miles into my ride. Anyway, I started using First Endurance EFS, not a worry since no matter how long or hard I ride. That EFS stuff is the shit.......never have to worry about cramping anymore.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

I know you don't want to believe in these studies for whatever reason,//

It is not that I do not want to believe in them, I just cannot given what I see in the real world. And all the studies I have seen, like this one, do not give a concrete conclusion. I believe this field of study in athletes is where wind tunnell testing was 20 years ago. I just dont think the right protocals have been studied enough within the right population. I want it to be true that there is some other mechinism at work in my cramping, but after 30 years of trying everything that was avaiable, or adjusting training and racing stragedies, only supplementation has worked. I can gurantee it is no placebo affect, and it only works as long as I'm able to absorbe the minerals. So for a hot ironman I am shit out of luck, I got to where I could survive 4 hours or a 1/2 ironman in hot weather. If it is cold, I can race all day, it is like I'm two different athletes. And I know of, and have seen plenty of responses in these threads that mimick mine, that something has to be there that the no supplement crowd will not acknowledge.

And do you really think that all those athletes had the exact same starting sodium levels? You sound like you are in the field, go back and find even two people that were exactly the same to the tenth, let alone a much larger number. Sure we are all about the same, but the variance is pretty wide when you see the top and bottom numbers that are considered normal. I have seen dozens of my friends blood tests, and I do not think we would have anything "exactly the same number"/

I'm not sure I understand your question. All 209 athletes in the study didn't have identical sodium levels -- it's just the average of the two groups that was the same, which isn't unusual. You're right that I "talk in probabilities" -- ultimately, that's all that science can deal in. If you don't believe in probabilities, then there's no study in the world that will ever convince you of something you don't want to believe.

In terms of abdominal cramping, I'm still inclined to suspect that you're dealing with a different physiological trigger than someone whose calf, for example, cramps during a run or bike. Abdominal cramping, which involves the muscles around the abdomen, is commonly associated with digestive issues. Here, for example, is a study published last month that found that the specific ratio of carbohydrates in a carbohydrate-electrolyte solution affected the frequency of abdominal cramping in a cycling trial. The abdominal cramping in this study is not the same thing as the muscle cramps discussed in the Ironman study.

I misunderstood what you were saying, and I do believe in probabilities and stats, as far as you can trust them. I still find it unusual that two groups would have the exact starting average, but not as unbelievable as everyone having the same. You will see that some here defended that possibility anyway, probably a billion to one of 209 people with the exact sodium level on the same morning.

And as to my ab cramping, it is almost certainly the same as calf, quad, or any other muscle cramping. I know this because it is almost always just the first to cramp, soon followed by all those other muscles. Not likely it is just a coinsidence that everytime my ab cramps, I just happen to have others as well. And the treatment is the same for all of them, take sodium and magnesium, and they all go away. Eventually they go away without supplementing, but that is usually a 5 hour wait vs 30 to 60 minutes with supplements..

I have done very long training for triathlons and have never cramped. More than twice I have accidentally put myself in a severe hyponatremic state and havent cramped. The only time i have ever really cramped was during some very intense training I did in rescue swimmer school in the coast guard, go figure.

So... The only time I cramp is kicking while swimming. And that comes in really early, and it's been like that for 30 years. Help! (I like wetsuits as they minimize the need for kicking for me :o)

A warm welcome to sweatscience. Big addition to the forum in the training/physiology area. Smart guy. Writes very well and he has a book coming out that I am sure will be of a great deal of interest to triathletes, and endurance athletes of all kinds.

Follow him on Twitter here - http://twitter.com/sweatscience

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Ive got to chime in here, seeing as Im very interested in sweating/cramps/hydration status.

Research is growing in regards to pickle juice/vinegar/mustard as a supressor/reliever/inhibitor of cramping.

One study found:
"rapid inhibition of the electrically induced cramps reflects a neurally mediated reflex that originates in the oropharyngeal region and acts to inhibit the firing of alpha motor neurons of the cramping muscle."

Theres a bunch others too. Ive tried pickle juice poolside for a foot cramp-worked for me. I wonder if theres any other "success" stories out there.

I also wonder the gastric issues from pickle juice in your bike bottle, vinegar, or mustard packets on the run.

My n=2 experience suggests this is not a simple issue.

Between my wife & I we have 40 years of endurance sports experience. For me, the only time I've ever cramped has been after long hard efforts on hot days. No surprise there.

My wife OTOH, is a different story. When younger, before having kids, she was an ultra distance athlete. Did all kinds of crazy and extreme long distance stuff. Much of what she did was pretty much impossible to do without overextending herself in some way. Won't go into detail in order to protect her anonymity. She rarely had cramps. (And her training wasn't all lsd stuff either, included fast and intense stuff as well.)

Fast forward 20 years, have kids, go through a period of not training much, now more than half a decade of moderately serious training, but much less than what she once did. Now cramping is a constant problem. Not just during races, either, it's induced by training as well. Seems to have some connection to hydration but there's clearly a lot more to it than that. She takes electrolyte supplements and thinks they help a little bit but not that much.

For those that say the cramping is just a matter of overextending yourself, how can she overextend herself if the race hasn't started and she gets cramps in her wetsuit while waiting for the swim to start? And why didn't she have these problems when she was younger and doing events that lasted days rather than hours, in the desert, etc. etc.?

BTW, her mother has lots of trouble with cramping as well, so that suggests a genetic element to this.

rroof, all the studies i've seen on this seem to make the (common) mistake of assuming that the phenomena is unimodal. my impression from reading cramp studies is that its a polymodal phenomeon, with different individuals subject to zero, one or different mechanisms that lead to cramp. unless you do a study which first isolates subjects by mechanism, its not likely that you'll see any correlation between any factor and the appearance of cramping. but you can't isolate them by mechanism since we don't know what the mechanism is, so the best we can probably do at present is to use some sort of "perceived experience" differentiation. for example, we might divide subjects into:

• those who never experience cramping
• those who always cramp (given a few requirements)
• those who always cramp in certain muscles
• those who only cramp given certain weather conditions
  
• those who cramp and find it relieved by X (where X could be salt, general electrolyte mixes, acid etc)

having done this partitioning, one could then repeat a study much like the one being referenced here, and the results would be quite a lot more interesting. i am also guessing that you would see a link to electrolyte depletion in some of the subject groups.

Re: [The pre-race sodium levels were 139.8 (+/-1.8) in the non-crampers and 139.8 (+/-1.5) in the crampers, so there was no difference in pre-race sodium levels].
Alex, thanks for the clarification on this, as I brought up the question as a possibility that the cramping group may have had lower pre-race sodium levels than the non-crampers. Is it possible that, if sodium levels are related to cramping, that the cramping group, as individuals, require a higher level of sodium than "average".

I appreciate that these measurements are averages and that individuals may need to be assessed as such. As others have discussed and in Rappstars Ironman nutrition plan (noted elsewhere on the forum) clearly demonstrates, experimentation to determine what works for an individual may be what's really required. I doubt most people would have access to the tools to adequately measure sodium levels in training and it's going to be more of a trial and error process.

My concern initially, is what I see as the tendency to look at electrolyte supplements (over and above what's in the on-course energy drink, for example) as an essential part of every Ironman athlete's nutrition plan, when either; they don't have any specific issues that may require extra supplementation, or they do have cramping issues that may be caused by a combination of (lack of) conditioning and/or a race intensity that's simply too high.

What are your thoughts on Ironman race intensity, with respect to cramping?
Regardless of whether or not it can be proven (or disproven) that there is any possibility that electrolytes influence muscle cramps (in Ironman), I think a study that looked at a similar group of athletes and their respective race intensities and the incidents of cramping would be very interesting. Maybe theres been one done....Anyone?

Thanks

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KC
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Agreed. I didn't start with truckloads of sodium. I slowly, and steadily, increased the amount in moderation until I found something that worked. But I had plenty of bad races where I cramped and walked sections of the run that led me to try things.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

The reason said "study' has not been done is that we don't really know why muscles cramp - only that it doesn't appear to linked to an electrolyte depletion.

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

EFS!!

I have the same problem.
I attribute the problem to two issues: 1) Not spending enough time in the pool. I have to swim at least four days per week to avoid this. 2) A really hard workout. My new swim coach tells me that I'm not used to working hard.

I used to. Then my father suggested I take salt pills before races. That helped some for shorter races, but not for HIM. Then I discovered Thermolyte, and then SaltStick, and now I do not cramp anymore. N=1. I don't really care what N=100 or 1000 says about electrolytes, because-for me-they work.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

The more I see threads like this, the more convinced I am that "exercise physiology" is a complete waste of time.

So it seems (albeit from a single, isolated study) that cramping is just one of the many unavoidable risks associated with getting as close as possible to your limits, especially if you happen to have a (genetically determined?) history of cramping.

This is my experience exactly. Once I started racing a bit more conservatively, cramping stopped. I no longer supplement either.

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/451/art%253A10.1186%252Fs40798-015-0019-7.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com%2Farticle%2F10.1186%2Fs40798-015-0019-7&token2=exp=1467876976~acl=%2Fstatic%2Fpdf%2F451%2Fart%25253A10.1186%25252Fs40798-015-0019-7.pdf*~hmac=d9f8a9027d47491c36084a8fdcc922256d0507fab8531abb53a9a79ebf2425e6

another interesting publication. The most recent so far.


LOOK TABLE 2 Post-race serum sodium (mmol/L)


P=0.055 which technically means no statistical significance, but 0.049 IS accepted as statistically significant. In other words..... Sodium has a role with a 5.5 % of making a mistake on this assumption.