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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
woof wrote:
Ok.
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...


FYI the research shows that those who in their natural pedaling style apply the most torque at 12 and 6 o'clock are the least efficient! So if you really want to decrease your efficiency keep working hard on those sectors.


"ABSTRACT The purpose of this study was to determine whether there is a causal relationship between pedalling "circularity" and cycling efficiency. Eleven trained cyclists were studied during submaximal cycling. Variables recorded included gross and delta efficiency and the ratio of minimum to peak torque during a duty cycle. Participants also completed a questionnaire about their training history. The most notable results were as follows: gross efficiency (r = -0.72, P < 0.05 at 250 W) was inversely correlated with the ratio of minimum to peak torque, particularly at higher work rates. There was a highly significant inverse correlation between delta efficiency and average minimum torque at 200 W (r = -0.76, P < 0.01). Cycling experience was positively correlated with delta efficiency and gross efficiency, although experience and the ratio of minimum to peak torque were not related. These results show that variations in pedalling technique may account for a large proportion of the variation in efficiency in trained cyclists. However, it is also possible that some underlying physiological factor influences both. Finally, it appears that experience positively influences efficiency, although the mechanism by which this occurs remains unclear.
Whole-body efficiency is negatively correlated with minimum torque per duty cycle in trained cyclists (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/..._in_trained_cyclists [accessed Sep 1, 2015]."

Hugh

If research shows that smooth pedaling is overrated, why do most pro cyclists have a silky stroke? Remember that the studies usually deal with short-duration power output where pushing down as hard as possible, with the resulting ragged pedaling action, is more effective. However, this masher style is fatiguing over several hours. As a result, good riders automatically smooth their pedaling to increase comfort and efficiency over the long haul. Elite riders can do both -- produce maximum power for short periods as well as pedal elegantly for hours.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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What is "elegant" and "silky" in regards to pedaling? A little too subjective as a definition, no? As opposed to the plethora of actual data...

Legs post-shaving, yeah OK but...
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
sciguy wrote:
woof wrote:
Ok.
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...


FYI the research shows that those who in their natural pedaling style apply the most torque at 12 and 6 o'clock are the least efficient! So if you really want to decrease your efficiency keep working hard on those sectors.


"ABSTRACT The purpose of this study was to determine whether there is a causal relationship between pedalling "circularity" and cycling efficiency. Eleven trained cyclists were studied during submaximal cycling. Variables recorded included gross and delta efficiency and the ratio of minimum to peak torque during a duty cycle. Participants also completed a questionnaire about their training history. The most notable results were as follows: gross efficiency (r = -0.72, P < 0.05 at 250 W) was inversely correlated with the ratio of minimum to peak torque, particularly at higher work rates. There was a highly significant inverse correlation between delta efficiency and average minimum torque at 200 W (r = -0.76, P < 0.01). Cycling experience was positively correlated with delta efficiency and gross efficiency, although experience and the ratio of minimum to peak torque were not related. These results show that variations in pedalling technique may account for a large proportion of the variation in efficiency in trained cyclists. However, it is also possible that some underlying physiological factor influences both. Finally, it appears that experience positively influences efficiency, although the mechanism by which this occurs remains unclear.
Whole-body efficiency is negatively correlated with minimum torque per duty cycle in trained cyclists (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/..._in_trained_cyclists [accessed Sep 1, 2015]."

Hugh


woof wrote:
If research shows that smooth pedaling is overrated, why do most pro cyclists have a silky stroke? Remember that the studies usually deal with short-duration power output where pushing down as hard as possible, with the resulting ragged pedaling action, is more effective.


The quoted study was done with very experience/talented cyclist at only 250 watts so not anything resembling their max efforts.


woof wrote:
However, this masher style is fatiguing over several hours.


What's your evidence of this?

woof wrote:
As a result, good riders automatically smooth their pedaling to increase comfort and efficiency over the long haul. Elite riders can do both -- produce maximum power for short periods as well as pedal elegantly for hours.


Like Chris Froome? I think you're confusing how cyclists hold their bodies with how they're applying power within the crank revolution. Without without quality power meter data it's impossible to know what's really going on with the second.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Sep 1, 15 9:48
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [ In reply to ]
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Overheard at a TT in the UK....

Having just been completely destroyed by a old chap on a steel racer, the triathlete on his carbon super bike heads over to speak to the old guy after the race.

"What's the secret" he asks
The old chap pauses for a moment, then leads the young lad over to his bike and points at the pedals.

"what is it? a new type of pedal?"

"Every time that Bast***d comes up I kick it back down as hard as I can, and I don't stop kicking it down until I cross that finish line"


Just keep pressing the dam pedal down and stop worrying about it!
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d.

An exercise for the student. Determine the speed variation with a typical pedal stroke, and how much this effects speed/power compared to continuous power application.

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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d.

An exercise for the student. Determine the speed variation with a typical pedal stroke, and how much this effects speed/power compared to continuous power application.


\I may be reading what he wrote wrong, but I can not see his point as being accurate. The crank acts as one piece with both side attached. In order to act as he describes right and left pedal/arms would need to be independent.

Like I said, I just can't make sense of what is written here. It would be like Ford saying the developed a multi-cylinder engine that has active cylinder return to avoid loss of momentum under load. Why would that be needed when the other cylinder through the crankshaft is already doing it?
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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On a steep climb there is a small fluctuation in speed because the power application is highly variable. Applying power continuously would eliminate this. He is correct in assuming that variable power and speed would be slower (for the same avg power) but the "penalty" is vanishingly small, and not something to worry about. Unless the rider is on an MTB and has difficulty maintaining traction.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]
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Triagain2 wrote:
Like I said, I just can't make sense of what is written here. It would be like Ford saying the developed a multi-cylinder engine that has active cylinder return to avoid loss of momentum under load. Why would that be needed when the other cylinder through the crankshaft is already doing it?

That is a consideration whenever power to the wheels is looked at a low level. Especially given the dead zones resulting from a 4 stroke engine. The difference between a straight 4 and a straight 6 or V8 for instance, you want to minimize the time that no cylinder is firing.

It is funny that the naysayers are doing nothing but saying "hey, go do the math yourself" because forces that aren't constant are hard. The crank is one piece but 12 and 6 o'clock are basically mutual dead zones. I think anytime the OP makes a thread asking a question and then spends the next 10 posts telling everyone they are wrong, is kind of beyond help. It's not biomechanically efficient to maximize that part of your pedal stroke.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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I was reading it wrong. They way you explained it makes sense to me. Thanks.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
the point been made is your probably not getting any benifit of one leg drill. it s not needed as pedaling properly isnt about pedaling in circle but simply pushing down with both legs.

just pushing down would create alot of radial force at 12 and 5=8oclock
pedaling circles is applying tangential force from 12-8
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