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trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock
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Ok. So I finally hooked up my trainer. Boring as hell.

But like swimming where I found that I was weak on one side, I found that when I pedal with one leg at a time,
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...
- weaker on the left,
- and jerky on the right.
I am pulling up with each leg on the stroke.
I was fitted to my bike in the aero position a year ago.
But maybe I am just not used to it? Or is this a sign that the crank arms are too long for me ? ??? Anybody messed around with this... is this normal?
When I ride on the road, using both legs, maybe this explains why I feel like I am fighting my pedal stroke and waisting energy there?

Don't know if this adds to the problem, but I am using a road bike with aero clip-ons.

Thanks!
Last edited by: woof: Aug 31, 15 17:46
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't worry about it. Bigger fish to fry. But you can always buy some powercranks.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
Ok. So I finally hooked up my trainer. Boring as hell.

But like swimming where I found that I was weak on one side, I found that when I pedal with one leg at a time,
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...
- weaker on the left,
- and jerky on the right.
I am pulling up with each leg on the stroke.
I was fitted to my bike in the aero position a year ago.
But maybe I am just not used to it? Or is this a sign that the crank arms are too long for me ? ??? Anybody messed around with this... is this normal?
When I ride on the road, using both legs, maybe this explains why I feel like I am fighting my pedal stroke and waisting energy there?

Don't know if this adds to the problem, but I am using a road bike with aero clip-ons.

Thanks!

Everyone is weak there. Stop pulling up. Only push. And yes, your crank arms are probably to long. I just went to 160s. Highly recommended.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
woof wrote:
Ok. So I finally hooked up my trainer. Boring as hell.

But like swimming where I found that I was weak on one side, I found that when I pedal with one leg at a time,
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...
- weaker on the left,
- and jerky on the right.
I am pulling up with each leg on the stroke.
I was fitted to my bike in the aero position a year ago.
But maybe I am just not used to it? Or is this a sign that the crank arms are too long for me ? ??? Anybody messed around with this... is this normal?
When I ride on the road, using both legs, maybe this explains why I feel like I am fighting my pedal stroke and waisting energy there?

Don't know if this adds to the problem, but I am using a road bike with aero clip-ons.

Thanks!


Everyone is weak there. Stop pulling up. Only push. And yes, your crank arms are probably to long. I just went to 160s. Highly recommended.

What do you mean stop pulling up... with one leg pedaling, you have to, otherwise major loss of momentum. ??
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
Dave Luscan wrote:
woof wrote:
Ok. So I finally hooked up my trainer. Boring as hell.

But like swimming where I found that I was weak on one side, I found that when I pedal with one leg at a time,
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...
- weaker on the left,
- and jerky on the right.
I am pulling up with each leg on the stroke.
I was fitted to my bike in the aero position a year ago.
But maybe I am just not used to it? Or is this a sign that the crank arms are too long for me ? ??? Anybody messed around with this... is this normal?
When I ride on the road, using both legs, maybe this explains why I feel like I am fighting my pedal stroke and waisting energy there?

Don't know if this adds to the problem, but I am using a road bike with aero clip-ons.

Thanks!


Everyone is weak there. Stop pulling up. Only push. And yes, your crank arms are probably to long. I just went to 160s. Highly recommended.


What do you mean stop pulling up... with one leg pedaling, you have to, otherwise major loss of momentum. ??

Stop that too. it's nonsense.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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the point been made is your probably not getting any benifit of one leg drill. it s not needed as pedaling properly isnt about pedaling in circle but simply pushing down with both legs.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
woof wrote:
Dave Luscan wrote:
woof wrote:
Ok. So I finally hooked up my trainer. Boring as hell.

But like swimming where I found that I was weak on one side, I found that when I pedal with one leg at a time,
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...
- weaker on the left,
- and jerky on the right.
I am pulling up with each leg on the stroke.
I was fitted to my bike in the aero position a year ago.
But maybe I am just not used to it? Or is this a sign that the crank arms are too long for me ? ??? Anybody messed around with this... is this normal?
When I ride on the road, using both legs, maybe this explains why I feel like I am fighting my pedal stroke and waisting energy there?

Don't know if this adds to the problem, but I am using a road bike with aero clip-ons.

Thanks!


Everyone is weak there. Stop pulling up. Only push. And yes, your crank arms are probably to long. I just went to 160s. Highly recommended.


What do you mean stop pulling up... with one leg pedaling, you have to, otherwise major loss of momentum. ??


Stop that too. it's nonsense.

Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.
Last edited by: gregf83: Aug 31, 15 18:56
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
the point been made is your probably not getting any benifit of one leg drill. it s not needed as pedaling properly isnt about pedaling in circle but simply pushing down with both legs.

Pedaling in circles is no longer a big deal... what study proves this?
It used to be that the studies showed that pedaling in circles was more effective.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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no, it was never relevant and no study as ever show pedaling in circle was the fastest way to ride a bike.

what study show is that world class rider have 2 peak force...one on each side and it s pushing down only. Up to you to revolutionize pedaling if you want but i will keep coaching elite athletes with what as been prooven/showed and experienced for years and years...

perhaps you been misinformed?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.

Not an all out effort by any means. I just have my heart rate to monitor. And no difference there. Power, I don't have a meter.

And I disagree about the pedal stroke from physics stand point: if you loose momentum... to gain it back, you have to do more work.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.


Not an all out effort by any means. I just have my heart rate to monitor. And no difference there. Power, I don't have a meter.

And I disagree about the pedal stroke from physics stand point: if you loose momentum... to gain it back, you have to do more work.
Unless your chain is going slack while pedaling you aren't 'losing momentum' while pedaling through 12 O'Clock.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.


Not an all out effort by any means. I just have my heart rate to monitor. And no difference there. Power, I don't have a meter.

And I disagree about the pedal stroke from physics stand point: if you loose momentum... to gain it back, you have to do more work.
Unless your chain is going slack while pedaling you aren't 'losing momentum' while pedaling through 12 O'Clock.

If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.


Not an all out effort by any means. I just have my heart rate to monitor. And no difference there. Power, I don't have a meter.

And I disagree about the pedal stroke from physics stand point: if you loose momentum... to gain it back, you have to do more work.
Unless your chain is going slack while pedaling you aren't 'losing momentum' while pedaling through 12 O'Clock.


If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.

4/10. Considered 3/10 but admire your persistence.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
If by 'big loss' you mean essentially zero then I agree with you.

I think you may be using a different definition of momentum than conventional physics where momentum = mv (Iw for angular).
Last edited by: gregf83: Aug 31, 15 20:29
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
the point been made is your probably not getting any benifit of one leg drill. it s not needed as pedaling properly isnt about pedaling in circle but simply pushing down with both legs.


Pedaling in circles is no longer a big deal... what study proves this?
It used to be that the studies showed that pedaling in circles was more effective.

The biomechanics of pulling, beyond simple lifting of the rising foot/leg so as not to impede the downstroke on the other side, are pretty uncompelling. There's some interesting analysis on just that point out there, which I'm too lazy to dig out for you, but seriously, it feels to you like sustained hard pulling is actually working for you?
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
If by 'big loss' you mean essentially zero then I agree with you.

I think you may be using a different definition of momentum than conventional physics where momentum = mv (Iw for angular).

12 o-clock and 6-o-clock are dead zones.
If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d. Every time your speed changes you will make up for it with waisted energy. Hence the reason to pedal circles. If cadence is high enough and there is little resistance than this may be more negligible. But over a long period of time, it could be minutes lost.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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the weight of your recovering leg is somewhat compensated for by the weight of your descending leg on the front side of the pedal stroke. the rest of the work of your recovery leg getting up to top dead center is done by a little but of the downward push of your other leg.

but more maybe to the point, if you placed a 5lb weight on one pedal and nothing on the other, and spun it with your hand, it would be a bit of work, eventually. but if you had 5lb weights on both pedals it would be easy to spin. it's like that when you're pedaling. with only a single 5lb weight on your pedal yes, you have to reaccelerate the crank every pedal stroke. but you don't have that lopsided acceleration with 5lb weights on each pedal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
If by 'big loss' you mean essentially zero then I agree with you.

I think you may be using a different definition of momentum than conventional physics where momentum = mv (Iw for angular).


12 o-clock and 6-o-clock are dead zones.
If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d. Every time your speed changes you will make up for it with waisted energy. Hence the reason to pedal circles. If cadence is high enough and there is little resistance than this may be more negligible. But over a long period of time, it could be minutes lost.
You've heard about pedaling in circles but it's not what you think. No one pedals with constant torque, not even close. Pedaling in circles refers to having a smooth pedal stroke, pulling back at the bottom of the stroke, unweighting the upstroke leg etc. But it is never anywhere close to constant torque. You can verify this by looking at the pedal torque curves in countless studies.

There are very small changes in velocity while pedaling but that doesn't mean energy is wasted. You can make dramatic changes in velocity while climbing a steep hill going back and forth between 400 and 200 watts and it will make very little difference in the total energy going up a hill. The micro changes in velocity that occur during a pedal stroke do not change the total energy required to climb a hill.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
If by 'big loss' you mean essentially zero then I agree with you.

I think you may be using a different definition of momentum than conventional physics where momentum = mv (Iw for angular).


12 o-clock and 6-o-clock are dead zones.
If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d. Every time your speed changes you will make up for it with waisted energy. Hence the reason to pedal circles. If cadence is high enough and there is little resistance than this may be more negligible. But over a long period of time, it could be minutes lost.
You've heard about pedaling in circles but it's not what you think. No one pedals with constant torque, not even close. Pedaling in circles refers to having a smooth pedal stroke, pulling back at the bottom of the stroke, unweighting the upstroke leg etc. But it is never anywhere close to constant torque. You can verify this by looking at the pedal torque curves in countless studies.

There are very small changes in velocity while pedaling but that doesn't mean energy is wasted. You can make dramatic changes in velocity while climbing a steep hill going back and forth between 400 and 200 watts and it will make very little difference in the total energy going up a hill. The micro changes in velocity that occur during a pedal stroke do not change the total energy required to climb a hill.

There are a couple arguments here... pedaling circles, pedaling ovals(1 leg down at a time), pedaling ovals(1 leg down, 1 leg up at same time).
- Pedaling circles with a high restrictive force is impossible, but on the flats, those oval bursts may cumulate to minutes lost over 112 miles.
- On a steep hill (15% grade) for a couple miles, I can't even get up it without pushing down with 1 leg and pulling up with the other. So my power goes up substantially using both legs pedaling ovals.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
Last week I focused on pulling back/up more on the left side. I cut 10 minutes off my time of 1 lap of IMAZ course.
Was it an all-out effort? What was the difference in avg power between the two rides?

No one ever studied has been able to increase their power simply by changing their pedal stroke as it's not generally a limiter.


Not an all out effort by any means. I just have my heart rate to monitor. And no difference there. Power, I don't have a meter.

And I disagree about the pedal stroke from physics stand point: if you loose momentum... to gain it back, you have to do more work.
Unless your chain is going slack while pedaling you aren't 'losing momentum' while pedaling through 12 O'Clock.


If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.


4/10. Considered 3/10 but admire your persistence.

Concur
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
pedaling ovals(1 leg down, 1 leg up at same time).
i guess I'm an oval pedaler, when I put one leg down the other one always goes up.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
woof wrote:
If you are in a frictionless environment... sure. But if you are facing a headwind or biking up hill... there will be a big loss, unless your cadence is very very high.
If by 'big loss' you mean essentially zero then I agree with you.

I think you may be using a different definition of momentum than conventional physics where momentum = mv (Iw for angular).


12 o-clock and 6-o-clock are dead zones.
If you are on a 10% graded hill... you speed will drop and momentum will drop due to the dead zone. If you can pedal through those regions, you can keep momentum constant. Otherwise any change in speed is added force and waisted energy. F=MA. E = F*d. Every time your speed changes you will make up for it with waisted energy. Hence the reason to pedal circles. If cadence is high enough and there is little resistance than this may be more negligible. But over a long period of time, it could be minutes lost.
You've heard about pedaling in circles but it's not what you think. No one pedals with constant torque, not even close. Pedaling in circles refers to having a smooth pedal stroke, pulling back at the bottom of the stroke, unweighting the upstroke leg etc. But it is never anywhere close to constant torque. You can verify this by looking at the pedal torque curves in countless studies.

There are very small changes in velocity while pedaling but that doesn't mean energy is wasted. You can make dramatic changes in velocity while climbing a steep hill going back and forth between 400 and 200 watts and it will make very little difference in the total energy going up a hill. The micro changes in velocity that occur during a pedal stroke do not change the total energy required to climb a hill.

This. We can pretty much wrap up the thread here.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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And for some more pseudo science;

woof is the sound a dog makes
a dog is a bit like a wolf
a wolf often lives in the woods
a badger also lives in the woods
a badger is usually only seen at night
Night is the opposite to Day
Frank Day

Frank Day is back.
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Re: trainer... one leg pedaling... weak around 12 o-clock [woof] [ In reply to ]
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woof wrote:
Ok.
- I am week from 11 o-clock to 1 o-clock on both legs...

FYI the research shows that those who in their natural pedaling style apply the most torque at 12 and 6 o'clock are the least efficient! So if you really want to decrease your efficiency keep working hard on those sectors.


"ABSTRACT The purpose of this study was to determine whether there is a causal relationship between pedalling "circularity" and cycling efficiency. Eleven trained cyclists were studied during submaximal cycling. Variables recorded included gross and delta efficiency and the ratio of minimum to peak torque during a duty cycle. Participants also completed a questionnaire about their training history. The most notable results were as follows: gross efficiency (r = -0.72, P < 0.05 at 250 W) was inversely correlated with the ratio of minimum to peak torque, particularly at higher work rates. There was a highly significant inverse correlation between delta efficiency and average minimum torque at 200 W (r = -0.76, P < 0.01). Cycling experience was positively correlated with delta efficiency and gross efficiency, although experience and the ratio of minimum to peak torque were not related. These results show that variations in pedalling technique may account for a large proportion of the variation in efficiency in trained cyclists. However, it is also possible that some underlying physiological factor influences both. Finally, it appears that experience positively influences efficiency, although the mechanism by which this occurs remains unclear.
Whole-body efficiency is negatively correlated with minimum torque per duty cycle in trained cyclists (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/..._in_trained_cyclists [accessed Sep 1, 2015]."

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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