Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 16 10:15

Post #26 of 141 (7128 views)

To get you better in swimming won't be that tough at all, especially considering your goals for the swim are fairly modest for your athletic ability and age.

I wouldn't worry about overtraining in the swim. The bike and run present the biggest potential for overtraining in triathlon. If you train correctly in the swim, you won't lose any run fitness and in my experience you'll get faster in the run.

You can check out the blog I wrote about the pro swim camp I've done for the last two years at http://www.magnoliamasters.com/swim-efficiency. I wrote about everything we tried to accomplish while the pros were here for 3 weeks. I included all of the workouts we did, too. Also, I just started a weekly newsletter that will have 3 free workouts and some helpful training tips.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 16 11:08

Post #27 of 141 (7094 views)

I started swimming this year. I watched videos on technique and have tried to implement it.

I quickly got to 25:00 for a 1500 meter time trial. Then I got stuck there for 3 months. That was swimming 2-3 times a week. Upped it to 20k yards a week for 8 weeks and dropped to 23:00. Still improving too.

Technique matters. Volume matters. Intensity matters.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 16 11:45

Post #28 of 141 (7068 views)

I have a similar question, but am not looking to get that fast. I'm a terrible swimmer (average 2min/100) and also have two surgically repaired shoulders. So swimming more than 9k per week is pretty much out of the question. I'd like to get down to about 1:45s and my biggest issues are that I have zero kick and my body position isn't great. I kick with fins quite a bit, but never translates to my swim. My ankles don't flex well at all, so with stiff legs, my butt sinks. Any suggestions aside from a ton of miles?
thanks

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 16 16:53

Post #29 of 141 (6998 views)

Kind of a spin off, but what's the general recommendation for increasing swim yardage. With running I'll follow the 10% rule (for the long run and weekly milage). What's the best way to ramp up swim distance (assuming decent form) without over doing it?

Matt

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]

Oct 19, 16 17:01

Post #30 of 141 (6988 views)

All depends on what you are looking to do. I am usually training triathletes on half the volume of the majority of the coaches in the triathlon community.

I would say that it all depends on the athlete, their goals, any previous injuries, age, technique, etc...

Sorry, I can't be more specific. If you want a generalization then a 10% rule for swimming works ok too.

Hope this helps,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 1:49

Post #31 of 141 (6892 views)

Next week i will start joining the age group team of i my swimclub.
So basically i should ask the coach if i can gradually increase my training time with time? i can't just hop in and join them 5-6 times a week because of a risk of overtraining and injuries?

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 2:47

Post #32 of 141 (6879 views)

hendriks wrote:

Next week i will start joining the age group team of i my swimclub.
So basically i should ask the coach if i can gradually increase my training time with time? i can't just hop in and join them 5-6 times a week because of a risk of overtraining and injuries?

by and large frequency is a good thing as long as you dont overstretch yourself too often.
(overtraining is frequnecy intensity, not enough rest , stress , nutrition etc its not just one factor)
Rahter than being worried swimmg 5-6 times a week i would just make sure that when your your interval times drop signifianctly not to bury yourself
ie you need more rest during the session , dont be afraid to sit out intervals and be honest to yourself when your body is tired .

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 3:07

Post #33 of 141 (6870 views)

Hi Hendriks,

I'm similar height to you but am 20 years older and about 25 kilos heavier....

I am coming towards the end of a swim focus month. Since Sep 21 I've swum everyday (bar 2) in a 25 metre pool, between two and three KM. All solo sessions, just my fat arse and a pace clock.

I've done (and continue to do) loads of junk miles (I pretend they're warm up and warm down) but plenty of 10x100, 4x200, a few 50 sprints if I can be arsed.

I try to hold 1:27 on 2:00 or 1:30 on 1:45 if I am feeling brave. My best 50 time is :36.

My 500 SCM free time has come down from 8:40 to 7:35 in that time and continues to drop. Open turns because a) my flip turns are shit, and b) I love air.

I would suggest your 7:00 goal is gettable if my current experience is anything to go by. Also you're not an arthritic fat opera singer with a penchant for beer like me.

Cheers!

Simon

-------------------------------
�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Last edited by: Barchettaman: Oct 20, 16 3:08

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 3:23

Post #34 of 141 (6859 views)

ericmulk wrote:

hendriks wrote:

Thanks for the advice! My coach tells me that it's all about technique and that you don't need to swim that much.
But since i haven't improved at all the last few years i will do some extra sessions and try to do at least 20k a week, hopefully that will do the job!

Swimming is half technique but also half swim-specific muscular strength and muscular endurance. There's a reason why virtually all swimmers have the trademark "V shape" espec when looked at from the back. The so-called "hefty" swimmers have a good bit of muscle below that surface fat, and it is specifically conditioned to swimming, and that's why the 200+ lb swimmers are lapping the 140-150-lb tri geeks. Some extra weight does not impede a swimmer near as much as a runner.

Back to your original question, my first question is are you absolutely certain you are swimming in a meters pool, not a yards pool. I say this b/c many, many tri geeks have no concept of the difference, and the 25 yd vs 25 m is only a roughly 10% difference. Also, 500 yd is a standard yards racing distance whereas the meters equivalent is 400m. So, is your pool 25yd (scy), 25m (scm), or 50m (lcm)??? This question is also important b/c there's a big diff from between going from 8:20 to 7:00 for 500 yd on a 25yd pool vs 500m in a 50m pool. If we look at in terms of the AR for 500 scy vs the WR for 400 lcm, the 500 record is 4:08.5 vs 3:40.1 for 400 lcm. If there were a WR for 500 lcm, it would be around 4:37 or thereabouts, vs 4:08 for 500 scy. So, getting down to 7:00 for 500 lcm implies going 7.00/4.62 = 1.515 ==> about 51.5% slower than the WR. Going 7:00 for 50 scy implies going 7.00/4.14 = 1.691 ==> 69.1% slower than the AR. Thus your 7:00 500 lcm is considerably faster than your 7:00 500 scy. THIS is why I ask about your pool length. Sorry for the long explain but lots of tri peeps just don't understand these things. :)

Why do you americans deal with meters? If you only would deal with yards you wouldn' t have those problems. We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist. (You do not have to response seriously on my silly remark, the thought only came to me).

Another thing (sorry, at least not 100% ontopic), I wondered in the city where I live (Munich, Germany) about different times I swam in different 50m lappools. One day, I started taking a tape measure and actually measured the pools. (The pool attendents looked as if I did something suspiciously). Anyway, one pool measured 48,9 m and another one 49,8 m. So don't be certain if a pool is said to be 50y or 50m.

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 3:27

Post #35 of 141 (6854 views)

Hahaha, thanks for the great comment and congratz on the impressive improvement!
I'ts really motivating to read stories like that, especially since i started thinking i just didn't have what it takes to become a decent swimmer.
I'll just work hard over the winter, get a video analysis, work on technique and hopefully that will lead to similar improvements!

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 4:07

Post #36 of 141 (6829 views)

Glad it was of use, I'm such an awful swimmer I feel a fraud commenting on swimming threads, but as our circumstances/times are a bit similar I hoped it might help.

One other thing: I have ramped up my distance/session from 2km to 3km over the month without any pain or soreness, which I am pleased with.

-------------------------------
�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 7:58

Post #37 of 141 (6717 views)

I have seen lots of people make even greater improvements in that amount of time. Of course these were all people that joined the high school swim team, so they were concentrating soley on swimming. People would join the team with no competitive swim experience, swimming slower than 1:45 per 100y, but the by the end of the season all were pretty close to 1:10 and a few under 1:00. This was over 3 months of the season. Also this is with very little technique work and very little technique guidance from the coach, mostly just lots of yards swimming. Technique coaching was the coach every once in awhile stopping you after a set to give you one thing to work on. You simply can not handle that many things to work on at once. And the most important changes to technique are not conscious changes, but unconscious ones you make. Looking at your times, your technique probably has not fundamental flaws, your changes are going to pretty small.

Swim 6 days a week with a team and this will mean putting your run and bike fitness on hold. Do not be concerned with losing a bit of fitness for both, because you will get that fitness back pretty quickly.

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 10:11

Post #38 of 141 (6682 views)

longtrousers wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

hendriks wrote:

Thanks for the advice! My coach tells me that it's all about technique and that you don't need to swim that much.
But since i haven't improved at all the last few years i will do some extra sessions and try to do at least 20k a week, hopefully that will do the job!

Swimming is half technique but also half swim-specific muscular strength and muscular endurance. There's a reason why virtually all swimmers have the trademark "V shape" espec when looked at from the back. The so-called "hefty" swimmers have a good bit of muscle below that surface fat, and it is specifically conditioned to swimming, and that's why the 200+ lb swimmers are lapping the 140-150-lb tri geeks. Some extra weight does not impede a swimmer near as much as a runner.

Back to your original question, my first question is are you absolutely certain you are swimming in a meters pool, not a yards pool. I say this b/c many, many tri geeks have no concept of the difference, and the 25 yd vs 25 m is only a roughly 10% difference. Also, 500 yd is a standard yards racing distance whereas the meters equivalent is 400m. So, is your pool 25yd (scy), 25m (scm), or 50m (lcm)??? This question is also important b/c there's a big diff from between going from 8:20 to 7:00 for 500 yd on a 25yd pool vs 500m in a 50m pool. If we look at in terms of the AR for 500 scy vs the WR for 400 lcm, the 500 record is 4:08.5 vs 3:40.1 for 400 lcm. If there were a WR for 500 lcm, it would be around 4:37 or thereabouts, vs 4:08 for 500 scy. So, getting down to 7:00 for 500 lcm implies going 7.00/4.62 = 1.515 ==> about 51.5% slower than the WR. Going 7:00 for 50 scy implies going 7.00/4.14 = 1.691 ==> 69.1% slower than the AR. Thus your 7:00 500 lcm is considerably faster than your 7:00 500 scy. THIS is why I ask about your pool length. Sorry for the long explain but lots of tri peeps just don't understand these things. :)

Why do you americans deal with meters? If you only would deal with yards you wouldn't have those problems. We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist. (You do not have to response seriously on my silly remark, the thought only came to me).
Another thing (sorry, at least not 100% ontopic), I wondered in the city where I live (Munich, Germany) about different times I swam in different 50m lappools. One day, I started taking a tape measure and actually measured the pools. (The pool attendents looked as if I did something suspiciously). Anyway, one pool measured 48,9 m and another one 49,8 m. So don't be certain if a pool is said to be 50y or 50m.

Actually, you are absolutely right in the whole yards vs meters thing but unfortunately Americans are so used to yards that I doubt that it will change in our lifetimes; maybe in 200-300 yrs, but not in the 21st century. Also, regarding the length of pools, I've done the same on the pools I swim in, not to mention the tracks I run on. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 15:35

Post #39 of 141 (6607 views)

longtrousers wrote:

We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist.

The Brits may not be part of the EU for much longer, but they will still be part of Europe ...

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 17:26

Post #40 of 141 (6575 views)

Sounds good. Yes, I would go relatively easy the first week. Swim every practice, but maybe every other practice get out after the first 30-40 minutes. See how your shoulders do. Also, if you've never done a 2 hour practice before then make sure you build up to it. Listen to your body, be conservative and patient.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [Hoffmeister] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 23:06

Post #41 of 141 (6493 views)

Hoffmeister wrote:

longtrousers wrote:

We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist.

The Brits may not be part of the EU for much longer, but they will still be part of Europe ...

True. They also drive instead of on the right side on the wrong... eh.... left side.
I have a lot of english collegues and when it comes to body weight (e.g. 5 stones) I always wonder how they can say that since that should be dependent which stones you take ???

Nice picture you have there. I wonder why there are separate displays for "one foot" and for "two feet". Maybe because "two feet" is a separate unit and "two feet" is different from two times "one foot"???? I would'nt be surprised.

Last edited by: longtrousers: Oct 21, 16 8:24

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]

Oct 20, 16 23:28

Post #42 of 141 (6486 views)

longtrousers wrote:

Hoffmeister wrote:

longtrousers wrote:

We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist.

The Brits may not be part of the EU for much longer, but they will still be part of Europe ...

True. They also drive instead of on the right side on the wrong... eh.... left side.
I have a lot of english collegues and when it comes to body weight (e.g. 5 stones) I always wonder how they can say that since that should be dependent which stones you take ???

Nice picture you have there. I wonder why there are separate displays for "one foot" and for "two feet". Maybe because "two feet" is a separate unit and "two feet" is different from two times "one feet"???? I would'nt be surprised.

It could be worse, we could still use rods, chains and furlongs.....well, those of us who aren't horse racing commentators.

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 7:53

Post #43 of 141 (6365 views)

Hendricks, I did a test 500m (scm, open turns) today. 7'22". That's on 28 days training out of the last 31, and is the best I've done.
Overall an improvement of 16.5 seconds / 100m in a month (test 500m in September was 8'45")
I would repeat that your goal of 7'00" for 500m is very doable.

-------------------------------
�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 9:11

Post #44 of 141 (6320 views)

Quote:

Next week i will start joining the age group team of i my swimclub.
So basically i should ask the coach if i can gradually increase my training time with time? i can't just hop in and join them 5-6 times a week because of a risk of overtraining and injuries?

zwemmen met kinderen is goed; ze zijn SNEL.

you can be a bit less conservative upping the swim time than you would be running. The fact that swimming isn't weight-bearing means you recover faster.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 9:29

Post #45 of 141 (6309 views)

Wow that's a big improvement in such a short period of time!
So the fact i haven't improved the last couple of years is likely just due to not swimming enough?
That's really encouraging since i'm planning on swimming a lot in the upcoming months!

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 9:31

Post #46 of 141 (6308 views)

intervals, intervals, intervals!

Do not bang out long sets in the pool, longest swim should be 500m and don't do that often

Everything has to be on the clock

Pyramid sets are awesome (50/100/150/200/250/200/150/100/50) - start with 1:15/50 and work towards 1:00
10x50 sets on the 1:00, work towards getting this down
5x100 sets on the 2:00 work on getting this down

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 9:36

Post #47 of 141 (6304 views)

Yeah those kids are fast, i'll probably get my ass kicked by a few ten year olds but that's okey.
Exactly but my main concern is overtraining again since i have been overtrained before. i guess i will start with 4 sessions a week and gradually build on that.

Btw, your Dutch is good! (if you didn't just use google translate ofcourse :P)

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 9:52

Post #48 of 141 (6286 views)

Yep, intervals, intervals, intervals are what brought me that improvement, modest as it is compared to the 'real' swimmers on here.

Oh, and I am still slower than my 10 yr old son but I can humble my 8 yr old :-)

-------------------------------
�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 10:08

Post #49 of 141 (6267 views)

So the fact i haven't improved the last couple of years is likely just due to not swimming enough?
---

This should be blown up and laminated as a banner on the forum's main page, since it applies to most (but not quite all) of us

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: need to make serious swimming gains [hendriks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 21, 16 11:09

Post #50 of 141 (6244 views)

Quote:

Btw, your Dutch is good! (if you didn't just use google translate ofcourse :P)

dank je; geen Google!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

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