Wait, crap, I can go back to heel striking, 50 cadence, AND eat as many twinkies as I want???

What a weekend this is going to be!!!

Andrew,
Just wanted to say I'm happy to see you back on the forum, or at least posting again.

Seems like it has been a while. I hope you will be around for a while.

I completely agree because you're not going to have optimal performance without optimizing both nutrition and training. If you know of any will designed studies where they've done this, I'd love to read them. Lots of people look at enzyme activity and protein or mRNA expression to determine oxphos changes, but functional data on whole muscle fibers would be better, especially if they were controlled for changes in mitochondrial content instead of fiber bundle dry weight.

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Dtyrrell

Brian,
I know this is just one persons article, but does this give you anything or provide any information you are looking for or looking to discredit?

http://www.samiinkinen.com/


http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance

those are results from his 'faster' study

I think UConn's Human Performance Laboratory was doing some work on this recently in conjunction with Jeff Volek, might be worth emailing someone from that lab.

Yeah that's where Ben Greenfield went and was one of their case studies.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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In human performance or psych?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

A few things just for the sake of discussion:

Diet:

Some on here have posted success with low carb diets etc, or if you are a diabetic and need to restrict carbs. Great, if that works for you or is proven in research and you can find a way to taylor it to yourself…have at it. As a coach I don't look at specific dietary interventions, IE dramatic changes in ratios etc. In Canada you're not really allowed to do that. (need to be a nutritionist/dietician etc)

General training:

I don't think there's anything new there, if you take some one off the couch and bring them from zero to 10 hours a week usually everything gets better. In the first 12 weeks of training any coach can look like a rock star. So substrate utilization, % of threshold, better body weight, FTP etc they can all improve quite easily.

Same goes for an MOP athlete who all of a sudden (say kids go to college etc) they have 15-20 hours instead of 10 available. Like I say, nothing new in terms of general training ideas or theory etc.

Specific manipulation of fat vs CHO:

This is probably what Brian is getting at, IE can you change % of utilization based on specific training. I looked at this a lot in 2012 with myself and a few others. Say can you alter the utilization curve to burn less CHO say at 75% of FTP or can you bump up your abilities so you are burning 50/50 ratio at 85% of FTP via certain types of training.

It is easy….but ultimately what you are doing is cutting off the top end of the curve. IE what is perceived to be an increase in "efficiency" is likely just a reduction in other abilities. Or pursuing a high volume intervention in training way beyond the point where you are maximizing its benefits for that given year or athlete, period of time etc. So you could be compromising overall optimal improvements for the sake of one measure…I would say that it took me a bit of time to look at this correctly ;-)

Keep in mind this is my N=1/group experience.

Specifically I haven't seen studies can identify and isolate for XYZ workout etc will lead to dramatic changes in substrate ratio….while other abilities are maintained/improved etc. In this regard he is right, it may not be the best idea to sacrifice FTP or specific power for the sake of "efficiency"

Maurice

I didn't see this article in the thread, but it was published in October of 2014.
http://www.researchgate.net/...r_endurance_exercise
Rethinking fat as a fuel for endurance exercise
JEFF S. VOLEK
1
, TIMOTHY NOAKES
2
, & STEPHEN D. PHINNEY

It's an overview with some studies from more recent years that showed a lot of promise with bicycle racers in a couple of instances.

"In conclusion, after a period of 3
-4 weeks with total daily carbohydrates at a level that induces
nutritional ketosis, the human body adapts to be
able to use almost all fat for its fuel. In athletes, we
posit that this may facilitate extended performance
without the need for the frequent ingestion of
carbohydrate-based fuels during exercise"

Hey Brian, We all need to be sceptical of studies published with funding from Gatorade or any other commercial interest.
Also - in this first study the author selected the peers who did the "peer review". That's also a red flag for me.
I can understand why Gatorade wouldn't want us to avoid their sugary product when training!
Cheers from NZ, Scott

I have tested lots of athletes (VO2 max, lactate) and the most "fat adapted" athletes I have seen were the cross country runners who were running 80-120 miles per week and eating high carb. They were more fat adapted (burn primarily fat until really high work rates) than those I tested on low carb diets. In fact, in some cases the problem I had with low carb dieters is that we could not get to VO2 max. Their ability to perform high intensity work was compromised so they reached muscle fatigue before we could get to a true VO2 max.

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Simplify, Train, Live

You make an important point, which I don't remember if it was touched on in this, but bears repeating.

If you need to hit high intensity exercise, burning more fat during exercise may not be beneficial to you. It will limit high end exercise performance.

My most fat adapted individuals are ultra distance runners. Example: 21% carb contribution at 7min/mile. 35% at 6 min mile. Threshold was at an RPE of 7 and he didn't have much more above that.

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on 120 miles per week, they may well be in a near permanent state of glycogen depletion, despite the high carb diet? what do you think?

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Those changes are relatively well known, but no one has yet been able to show consistent improved performance after making this shift and keeping everything else the same. That's kinda what all the discussion has been about.

It may turn out to be that the benefits don't show up until after 5 hours or so and it just hasn't been tested yet, though I think some of the work has indeed subjected those poor volunteers to 300 minute trainer rides.

So back to the original point from the Desert Dude, I think that changing food to increase fat burning is a dead end for races shorter than say 3 hours. Though unlike him, I am not exactly yet convinced that it is a dead idea for races in the 5 hour or longer range.

No, I don't think so. I think they are in a constant state of glycogen cycling (depletion and repletion) but were adequately fueled.

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Simplify, Train, Live

Not when you burn 75% fat on your day-to-day workouts. Did they however always do this, or have they adapted to it? Ie are they great runners because of their very high fat utilization even at high intensities or are they using so much fat because they are training to be the best?

Probably a lot of both. We do know that huge volume is needed for a silly high enzyme activity. Is it because of the glycogen depletion that follows such workouts? Maybe a bit. Can you enhance it by eating less carbs? Probably. Can you maintain the workload needed for said enzyme activity on a high fat, low carb diet? Probably not. For highest performance high volume must be coupled with 2-3 high intensity workouts per week and not being able to will cause detraining.

I'm sorry if I'm not making sense here right now I've just rode my trainer for 2:30 and then ran and then took my melatonin pill. Goodnight.

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Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede

Not that it's really here nor there, but the workouts in the older sweet spot base training programs on Trainerroad were constantly espousing the same rationale on screen as you rode.

I don't know if any of those workouts survived into the latest format, but Until about three weeks ago. I was reading about how my low intensity endurance efforts would improve my body's fat utilization on a weekly basis...

n=1 , but this is quite interesting.... 16:37 5k guy switch from high carb SAD diet to LCHF, runs nearly the same time, 16:41

http://paleorunner.org/...e-on-ketogenic.html/

Again, do not confuse the long-known (i.e., since at least the 1930s) increase in fat oxidation that results from endurance exercise training with the also long-known (i.e., from before 1900) increaes in fat oxidation that results from eating more fat. Hunter's comments were focussed at the former, not the latter, and are straight out of Exercise Physiology 101.