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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Raisins, bananas, coke, even Gu- all taste really good during an ironman run.
French fries might taste good also.
But they WILL NOT taste good the second time they pass through my mouth. (And I am pretty sure their would be a second time).

And practicing a high fat nutrition strategy.
My neighbors already think I am a slob. (And they have not even witnessed my ninja emergency pit stops).

What will the neighbors think if I am "practicing" the Slow Speed Projectile Vomit Dash, every Saturday afternoon, like a crazed frat-boy from some triathlon themed fraternity?
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I have my own metabolic cart. You could argue my observations are n=1, or you could argue that doing 100 tests on the same person may yield a more relevant result than 1 test on 100 people. Either way, I can tell you that fasted training has no impact on MY fat metabolism when in a fueled state (for example during a race effort). This is what I think people believe - that doing fasted workouts makes you a better fat burner when racing. Of course fat metabolism during the fasted effort is high, but that doesn't necessarily translate into fat burning during a normal, fueled performance (such as in a race). If people want to race in a fasted and glycogen depleted state, I would highly recommend it if they are in my AG.

- daily diet, and what I eat before a workout, has the largest impact on my fat metabolism at race efforts. However there is a trade-off. A high fat diet may result in higher fat burning, but that means your glycogen stores are also depleted.
- many more observations, need some time to write it up!

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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n = 1, here is my marathon progression, I follow high fat diet and high volume (lsd)

2008 first ever marathon, 3:54
2011 (june): 3:06
2012 (feb): 3:01
2012 (june): 2:59
2014 (april): 2:54
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to assume that DD hasn't responded because he knocked himself out from banging his head on the desk while reading some of these replies...
Last edited by: LoDewey: Sep 15, 14 19:21
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [Fortius] [ In reply to ]
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The amount of published research on the benefits of carbohydrate ingestion and performance benefits would take you weeks to read through. The same cannot be said for "increasing fat metabolism" stakes or "fat only" approach.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen two coaches preaching this crap in the last week.

This thread has been a good "spot the logical fallacy" exercise though.
Last edited by: NordicSkier: Sep 15, 14 20:25
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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I've read through this lightly but has there been any evidence presented that he requested?

Other than anecdotal, I haven't seen it.

jaretj
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [LoDewey] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
going to assume that DD hasn't responded because he knocked himself out from banging his head on the desk while reading some of these replies...


Hahaha I wish! I was sick all weekend. I was invited by the DC Tri Club to give a lecture on aerodynamics and training so spent most of the weekend figuring out what i wanted to speak about rehearsing it then working on my pp.

Sometimes though I do want knock myself out reading ST.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
n = 1, here is my marathon progression, I follow high fat diet and high volume (lsd)

2008 first ever marathon, 3:54
2011 (june): 3:06
2012 (feb): 3:01
2012 (june): 2:59
2014 (april): 2:54

My marathon progressing eating mostly whatever I want, with a decent amount of healthy food mixed in (veggies, fruit, grains). I'd say I ate a lot more and I weighed 6lbs heavier in the more recent marathon. It was also a lot hillier and I ran 26.3mi because my dumb as got confused somehow and I missed the turn to lap 2 and headed down the finish chute.

1997 - 3:38 (open)
2014 - 3:21 (in an IM)

Its' the only 2 data points I have unfortunately.

I think my training might have impacted these more than nutrition.

But as a counterpoint, I had more energy and never bonked. I actually think I bonked pretty hard in my first attempt.

In conclusion, my data is useless.... but probably not a lot less useless than the data above as we know nothing about training.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
synthetic wrote:
n = 1, here is my marathon progression, I follow high fat diet and high volume (lsd)

2008 first ever marathon, 3:54
2011 (june): 3:06
2012 (feb): 3:01
2012 (june): 2:59
2014 (april): 2:54


My marathon progressing eating mostly whatever I want, with a decent amount of healthy food mixed in (veggies, fruit, grains). I'd say I ate a lot more and I weighed 6lbs heavier in the more recent marathon. It was also a lot hillier and I ran 26.3mi because my dumb as got confused somehow and I missed the turn to lap 2 and headed down the finish chute.

1997 - 3:38 (open)
2014 - 3:21 (in an IM)

Its' the only 2 data points I have unfortunately.

I think my training might have impacted these more than nutrition.

But as a counterpoint, I had more energy and never bonked. I actually think I bonked pretty hard in my first attempt.

In conclusion, my data is useless.... but probably not a lot less useless than the data above as we know nothing about training.

i think it comes down to the audience being preached to...

american diet is full over over processed foods, and gatorade type nutrition articles push for the chubby americans to take more products so you dont bonk. This advice is sound for someone with low body fat already and none to spare. I too, have put a focus on minimally processed foods with raw veggies being my picks, so who knows maybe its not the lchf diet that improved me performance, but the increased intake of micro nutrient dense foods.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen a LCHF diet + low HR (higher % fat burning) exercise during the off season change a person's body composition such that their power/weight ratio and overall endurance are vastly improved when it comes time to return to harder training and racing. One's diet should follow a periodization plan just like a training plan does.

The source of the carbohydrate also makes a difference when talking about racing. I've been using the lower carb/calorie UCAN superstarch as fuel for endurance running going on two years with no issues and very little fluctuation of blood sugar while taking it. I have seen steady performance gains in the process as well. But then again, that's running for a really long time at a low HR (50-100K at a time)

If working with a person who has a long way to go to get lean and mean, I think there is a place for the concept of metabolic efficiency to improve their body composition which will, in turn, improve their performance. If the athlete is already lean and is training for high intensity racing such as sprint and Oly distance triathlon, then the application of a higher carb fueling strategy will have more of an impact on their performance than say someone who is ultra-running or doing long course triathlon.

I agree that research is lacking to show performance gains in people following a LCHF diet, but every athelte is a snowflake and what works for one may not work for another. Nutritional ketosis is a royal pain in the ass to reamin in and most folks will feel like shit doing so. I think the sweet spot is somewhere between to two extremes, a moderate carb intake to stimulate fat adaptation with periodic carb backloading to maintain glycogen storage pathways.

I dont't think this is an issue that will be "put to bedt" anytime soon. In fact I hope there is more research to help clarify the issue. Until then, I'll keep an open mind and continue to test the concept on folks it seems appropriate for (less fit / newer atheltes looking to improve body composition while also training).


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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First marathon attempt - '04 - dnf by dropping out at the 1/2 mark in 2:15 (hey, I did it on zero running for 11 years and signed up on a whim).
Second marathon attempt - same race in '05 - 3:58 and I walked the last 6 miles.
Third marathon attempt was pacing a friend - same race in '06 - 3:57 and ran comfortably.
Fourth marathon attempt 6 weeks later - 3:12 - BQ.

And I would regulary eat pizza, Ben and Jerry's, drink nice beer and wine and generally eat whatever the "F" that I wanted.

So there is my completely worhtless n=1 analysis of food and how it really affected my growth and performance. Running lots and varied paces had nothing to do with it. ;-)

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
Last edited by: Daremo: Sep 16, 14 11:51
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Have we laid that to bed for good? nailed the coffin shut? Gave it the old heave ho once and for all?

Haven't seen or heard anyone bring it up in ages. (thankfully)

Anyone still holding onto that belief or any coaches still preaching that?

I did see this posted by a pretty famous coach today....

Quote:
This means improving your ability to do work with less energy. There are many ways to improve your economy, from more effective training to improvements to your aero position on the bike to reducing your rolling resistance with a better set of tires. In my opinion the best way to improve your economy on the bike is to train in the morning before you eat, while in a “fasted” state. Get up early, make sure you have water in your water bottles, and do a workout before you eat, forcing your body to burn its fat stores. Take it at fairly low intensity for the first couple hours at your endurance pace. After two hours, start eating; just make sure you have plenty of protein along with complex carbohydrates for your on-the-bike breakfast. Clearly, doing longer rides enhances this training more than just an hour’s ride before work, but if you’ve got only an hour to ride, then do your hour-long workout and resist the temptation to eat for another hour and half if possible; this will help stimulate your body’s reliance on fat as a fuel source.
If you can make these simple additions to your training, you’ll be able to improve your aerobic engine, the biggest benefit of which is being able to burn more fat as fuel at a higher rate of intensity. Your aerobic metabolism is the bedrock of your cycling fitness, whether you’re an Ironman or a sprint triathlete. When we talk about triathletes with “big engines,” what we’re really saying is they have extremely well-developed aerobic metabolic systems. Think of it this way: the stronger your aerobic energy system (especially your fat metabolism), the less your body will rely on carbohydrate use while riding at a set workload (e.g. 200 watts) early on in a race. This allows you to ride longer at that 200 watts before running out of glycogen or have more carbohydrates available for the hard attacks above 200 watts at the end of a race. In day-to-day training, a stronger aerobic metabolism thus also becomes the critical foundation for improving your anaerobic capacity by permitting you to do more or harder intervals. Therefore, if you can do just one thing to improve in cycling, you’ll want to train to improve your body’s aerobic system and its efficiency at using fat, carbohydrates, and protein as fuel, because the more fat you can burn while cycling at a moderate intensity, the more you can save precious glycogen for more intense running at the end of your event.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Daremo wrote:
First marathon attempt - '04 - dnf by dropping out at the 1/2 mark in 2:15 (hey, I did it on zero running for 11 years and signed up on a whim).
Second marathon attempt - same race in '05 - 3:58 and I walked the last 6 miles.
Third marathon attempt was pacing a friend - same race in '06 - 3:57 and ran comfortably.
Fourth marathon attempt 6 weeks later - 3:12 - BQ.

And I would regulary eat pizza, Ben and Jerry's, drink nice beer and wine and generally eat whatever the "F" that I wanted.

So there is my completely worhtless n=1 analysis of food and how it really affected my growth and performance. Running lots and varied paces had nothing to do with it. ;-)

So let me get this straight... what I think I'm reading is that a 2:50 marathoner (with proper training) massively under performed slightly less in each of his 4 attempts over 24 months. :)


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Has anyone provided any scientific evidence yet?
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
Has anyone provided any scientific evidence yet?


Up to this point, most if the research has been funded by the same sports nutrition companies which manufacture and sell sugar/carbohydrate based products, so....

I wish some of the new companies like UCAN had the resources to sponsor a study on their products.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Sep 17, 14 8:55
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
desert dude wrote:
Have we laid that to bed for good? nailed the coffin shut? Gave it the old heave ho once and for all?

Haven't seen or heard anyone bring it up in ages. (thankfully)

Anyone still holding onto that belief or any coaches still preaching that?


I did see this posted by a pretty famous coach today....

Quote:
This means improving your ability to do work with less energy. There are many ways to improve your economy, from more effective training to improvements to your aero position on the bike to reducing your rolling resistance with a better set of tires. In my opinion the best way to improve your economy on the bike is to train in the morning before you eat, while in a “fasted” state. Get up early, make sure you have water in your water bottles, and do a workout before you eat, forcing your body to burn its fat stores. Take it at fairly low intensity for the first couple hours at your endurance pace. After two hours, start eating; just make sure you have plenty of protein along with complex carbohydrates for your on-the-bike breakfast. Clearly, doing longer rides enhances this training more than just an hour’s ride before work, but if you’ve got only an hour to ride, then do your hour-long workout and resist the temptation to eat for another hour and half if possible; this will help stimulate your body’s reliance on fat as a fuel source.
If you can make these simple additions to your training, you’ll be able to improve your aerobic engine, the biggest benefit of which is being able to burn more fat as fuel at a higher rate of intensity. Your aerobic metabolism is the bedrock of your cycling fitness, whether you’re an Ironman or a sprint triathlete. When we talk about triathletes with “big engines,” what we’re really saying is they have extremely well-developed aerobic metabolic systems. Think of it this way: the stronger your aerobic energy system (especially your fat metabolism), the less your body will rely on carbohydrate use while riding at a set workload (e.g. 200 watts) early on in a race. This allows you to ride longer at that 200 watts before running out of glycogen or have more carbohydrates available for the hard attacks above 200 watts at the end of a race. In day-to-day training, a stronger aerobic metabolism thus also becomes the critical foundation for improving your anaerobic capacity by permitting you to do more or harder intervals. Therefore, if you can do just one thing to improve in cycling, you’ll want to train to improve your body’s aerobic system and its efficiency at using fat, carbohydrates, and protein as fuel, because the more fat you can burn while cycling at a moderate intensity, the more you can save precious glycogen for more intense running at the end of your event.

Posted by ????? while some of what he says is true, it really seems like he dosnt understand or making it overcomplicated. he needs to drop the fat burning thing and simply call it getting fitter. The rest will take care of itself....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Doc Coggans partner Hunter Allen wrote that.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
Doc Coggans partner Hunter Allen wrote that.

for.the.win

Badig| Strava


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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
Has anyone provided any scientific evidence yet?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8BY4fyLvZc
Last edited by: synthetic: Sep 17, 14 9:57
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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While I just thumbed through it, I didn't see the studies he is referencing, just stating it as fact.

Is there a place in the video that he does cite experiments and studies that he or someone else performed?

jaretj
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I love this topic and read about it anytime I can.

One observation.....reading this thread is like reading about climate change.

It's settled....

No it's not...

Yes, it is...

and on it goes.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Take from this what you will, but when you get old, obese, sedentary people to exercise, they had a +21% increase in lipid droplets in muscles along with an increase in complex III of the mitochondrial electron transport chain. Their insulin sensitivity improved too, so this would suggest that they're storing lipids in their bodies better after exercise, and since lipid in the muscles increased at the same time they had exercise induced stress, one might presume that it is because the muscles are using that fat to make ATP, although they didn't measure RER. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18319352

Here's another one showing that weight loss+exercise, weight-loss alone, and exercise alone all result in a greater proportion of energy coming from fat. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18617627

And this one shows a huge increase in CPT-1 enzyme, which plays a major role in moving fatty acid from outside of the mitochondria to inside of the mitochondria to be used to form ATP. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16464906

But there does seem to be a sparsity of data showing that any kind of increase in fatty-acid oxidation will help you win races. It does seem "healthier" to have greater FA-oxidation, but that doesn't necessarily mean people should substitute 100% of their carbohydrate intake for fat.


Dtyrrell
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [Dtyrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Dtyrrell wrote:
there does seem to be a sparsity of data showing that any kind of increase in fatty-acid oxidation will help you win races. It does seem "healthier" to have greater FA-oxidation, but that doesn't necessarily mean people should substitute 100% of their carbohydrate intake for fat.

Like many, you're conflating (at least) two issues here:

1) the effects of endurance training; and

2) the effects of diet

on substrate oxidation.
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Re: fat metabolism aka teaching your body to burn more fat while exercising [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Have we laid that to bed for good? nailed the coffin shut? Gave it the old heave ho once and for all?

Apparently not!
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