You people need to learn how to swim!

Dec 17, 05 12:42

Post #1 of 139 (8695 views)

as i'm going thru these kona numbers, steep/shallow etc., one thing keeps sticking out. as an example, here's the mean steep-riding male finisher among the top-25% of finishers:

here are "his" splits: 10:01:28: 1:08:12, 5:12:46, 3:33:07
now, here are "hers": 10:55:31: 1:10:09, 5:42:23, 3:54:59

here's the same calc but using the top 75% of finishers:

MALE: 10:34:14: 1:10:54 , 5:24:43, 3:50:14
FEMALE: 11:35:01: 1:15:46 , 5:57:44, 4:11:48

the shallow riders enjoy about the same swim/bike/run ratios, more or less. anyway, these are impressive bike/runs. you're a guy, you go 10-flat, you bike 10:12 and run 3:33, you're a stud. but great ceasar's ghost, a 1:08 in the water?! you suck!

and likewise all the way down the line, M and F.

any of you, i don't care when you started racing, i don't care if you didn't swim a stroke until you hit your 30s, if you can bike/run that fast you should be able to swim faster. in fact, i'd say that a "typical" swim split for a 5:12/3:33 bike/run would be an hour flat, maybe 58-ish. certainly not 1:08!

you IM guys (and gals) are, as an average, swimming WAAAY too slow compared to your bike/runs, and if i was your coach charged with finding you 20 minutes, i'd get 10-15 of those minutes off your swim. these would be the quickest, easiest, least impactful minutes to take off your finish time.

geez, i never realized until now how improperly many or most of you were spending your training time.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 12:44

Post #2 of 139 (8684 views)

you just made Doug Stern smile widely.

Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 12:45

Post #3 of 139 (8684 views)

Thanks for the heads up. I think you may be right and swimming helps the overall cardio the most also.

"I have no fear of losing my life - if I have to save a koala or a crocodile or a kangaroo or a snake, mate, I will save it. "
Steve Irwin

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 12:45

Post #4 of 139 (8684 views)

I can swim :)

I think I'd do really well on that first leg of an Ironman.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 12:53

Post #5 of 139 (8658 views)

"I think I'd do really well on that first leg of an Ironman."

upon further review, i'll make a minor adjustment to my earlier statement. let's take another look at the pointy end of the finishers:

his: 10:01:28: 1:08:12, 5:12:46, 3:33:07
hers: 10:55:31: 1:10:09, 5:42:23, 3:54:59

it's apparent that as people get serious about their training/racing the gals are more in tune with getting their swim up to par. the swim differential is not nearly so great between men and women as is the gap in the other two legs.

therefore, i'd have to say that while the women are not swimming as fast as they should be, the men just plain suck in the water.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:04

Post #6 of 139 (8617 views)

I always had the impression that, in general, the gender gap for abilities is less in swimming than biking and running. Could that explain why women do relatively better in the swim?

Pat

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:05

Post #7 of 139 (8618 views)

Seems like a conundrum. Guys see the stats, looking at what time they need to qualify. They see the times, look at the splits. "Damn, gotta spend time on the bike...dudes are smokin'!....but I can spend some more time on the bike since I don't have to swim so much..." So time that would be spent in the pool is spent on the bike trying to keep up with the Jones's.

Or something like that.

Conversely, if they spent that additional time in the pool to the detriment of time spent on the bike/run, what would the overall time look like? It appears that when people ask for how much they can improve in an IM, it boils down to bike and run..."can't win the race on the swim, but you can lose it..." is not an uncommon refrain. So folks do just enough on the swim to stay within contact of their competitors and then go from there.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:06

Post #8 of 139 (8610 views)

there is no "gear" to buy for swimming.

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:11

Post #9 of 139 (8592 views)

But of these times (for the guys) 52% is spent on the bike, 35.4% on the run, 11.1% in the water, and 1.4% in transition (if I did all the conversions right). So if that were me (and it's not!) I'd look for 52% of my next improvement to be found on the bike, 35.4% on the run, etc. And if my swim, for example, were particularly bad, then its percentage of importance as a source for the next increment of improvement would rise commensurately, but not more than commensurately. Also, given these percentages, excellent overall performers -- of the sort who make it to Kona and into your analysis -- would be expected to be comprised of mostly folks whose strongest skill is bike riding, then fewer folks whose strongest skill is running, not many at all whose strongest skill is swimming, and practically nobody whose transitions lead them to glory. That is, the distances (times, actually) allotted to the sports predispose the results to select for relatively poor swimmers. So, your conclusion that these really fast overall performers have relatively weak swims shouldn't really be a great surprise, should it? Now if they had really weak bikes and landed in your elite group without benefit of the Boston subway system, that would indeed be a major surprise.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Erik Clark] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:13

Post #10 of 139 (8583 views)

I love buying new swimsuits!

True, there's not as much as you can buy for a bike... but shopping for a new swimsuit, FUN!!!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Mike C] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:14

Post #11 of 139 (8578 views)

"if they spent that additional time in the pool to the detriment of time spent on the bike/run, what would the overall time look like?"

let's take the two guys mentioned above, the average finisher in the top 75% of the field, and in the top 25%.

10:01:28: 1:08:12, 5:12:46, 3:33:07
10:34:14: 1:10:54 , 5:24:43, 3:50:14

getting from 5:24 to 5:12 is going to take quite a bit of work. getting from 3:50 to 3:33 likewise, that's a TON of work, both on the bike AND on the run.

the nice thing about getting from 1:11 to :59 is that it's not that much incremental work in the pool, and it takes pretty much no additional energy to execute that sub-1-hr swim. the time and energy bullets spent in training to make that 12 minutes up in the swim is LESS than it is for the bike, and you'll be less taxed during that training time.

now, if you're already going 10-flat, and now you've got to get from 5:12 to 5-flat, or 1:08 to 1hr flat, the latter is again easier to achieve, and with no side effects. most of that improvement is technique, which is free speed. if you're already pushing your limits in bike/run ability, and now you're just wondering how to push those inversely proportional bike and run splits around, you don't have that worry about the swim. going faster in the water isn't going to cause you problems later on, in the way that riding faster might.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:15

Post #12 of 139 (8572 views)

Re: gender gap

True they are closest in the swim -- but it's the shortest leg so it should be. There's not as much time for women to fall behind.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:17

Post #13 of 139 (8568 views)

I trust I will not offend you if I tell you to go and screw yourself.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:22

Post #14 of 139 (8555 views)

It's simple, humans are land animals!! Fish never made it to the top of the food chain.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Steve B] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:22

Post #15 of 139 (8547 views)

"52% is spent on the bike, 35.4% on the run, 11.1% in the water"

that stat is tempting to consider, but the simplicity of the math is more than offset by looking at the metabolic cost of swimming faster. look at it this way. if there was a widget you could put on your bike and instantly get 10 minutes, geez, that's a no brainer, you'd do it. there's no metabilic cost.

to ride 10 minutes faster, there's a huge energy expenditure, maybe an extra 15 or 20 watts expended over 5 hr., and that's a LOT of training and maybe you'll never get there because you're already close to your body's limit of natural ability.

the swim is somewhere in between achieving the bike/run improvement, and the widget you can buy. it's free speed, metabolically. but, you do have to train in order to achieve it, you can't just buy it at nytro.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Monk] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:23

Post #16 of 139 (8545 views)

"go and screw yourself."

i know you mean that in love.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:25

Post #17 of 139 (8538 views)

What I meant by the gender gap was that if you look @ female vs male swim times they are comparably closer than female vs maler bike or run times. So his conclusion that male ironman competitors are suckier swimmers than female ironman competitors may not be accurate. You'd have to look @ how women individually swim, bike or run vs men s, b, r to conclude that they are more skilled @ swimming.

I hope that makes sense, it may not,

Pat

Last edited by: Trillini: Dec 17, 05 13:34

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:26

Post #18 of 139 (8532 views)

n fact, i'd say that a "typical" swim split for a 5:12/3:33 bike/run would be an hour flat, maybe 58-ish.

Wasn't the swim this a bit year slow? (current or something?) That is what I heard, anyways.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:28

Post #19 of 139 (8526 views)

I can spend a year working on swimming and save 5 minutes at Ironman.

I can spend a year woring on my running and save 25 minutes.

Besides, swimming takes a pool. Pools mean schedules.

I can go outside and run any time, night or day, and often do.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:29

Post #20 of 139 (8522 views)

Could explain part of the reason steep angled riders are faster - they spend proportionately more time on the bike (as evidenced by the lack of material difference between their swim times and the slack-angled riders).

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Trillini] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:31

Post #21 of 139 (8516 views)

"So his conclusion that male ironman competitors are sucky swimmers than female ironman competitors may not be accurate."

yes, you might be right. it's like if the competition was bike, run, and working a crossword puzzle. women would be closer to men in the latter (or ahead of them). i suppose you could decide on a metric, like world records over 1500M, and extrapolate.

should this be the case, then i revert back to my original premise: you all suck (as a group average).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:31

Post #22 of 139 (8513 views)

the nice thing about getting from 1:11 to :59 is that it's not that much incremental work in the pool, and it takes pretty much no additional energy to execute that sub-1-hr swim.

And I'm certainly not going to disagree with you---but I don't think enough people think that way (hence your starting this thread, no doubt). Most of us believe that it takes a disproportionate amount of time to make what we believe to be relatively insignificant gains on the swim.

Obviously that's not the case.

Good info to ponder. And time to add another swim session to the weekly schedule. ;-)

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:33

Post #23 of 139 (8506 views)

That is really bad reasoning!! The viscosity of water is 55 times greater than that of air. To achieve a 10 minute imrpovement in the water will take a lot more then 15-20watts, even if some of the improvement is due to technique. Most individuals that have made it to Kona already have at least a fair amount of swimming technique so even if half the improvement (5 minutes) were due to better technique, the cost for the other 5 minutes in power WILL STILL BE GREATER THEN 15-20 WATTS. It comes down to bang for the buck. It's just not there in swimming.

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Mike C] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:36

Post #24 of 139 (8494 views)

"Most of us believe that it takes a disproportionate amount of time to make what we believe to be relatively insignificant gains on the swim."

i would guess that this is because you're just putting more and more effort and hours into swimming badly. somebody needs to teach you how to swim properly. i'll bet doug stern, or monty, or i, could take a group of you and make you much, much, much faster over a 6 mo period of time, off probably 12,000 yd per week average (with once-every-6-wk peak weeks of maybe 16,000 - 18,000 yds). but a LOT of it would be technique work.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: You people need to learn how to swim! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Dec 17, 05 13:38

Post #25 of 139 (8481 views)

Technique work frustrates me. I know it's important, but I rarely do it because I'd much rather swim sets. I swim fairly fast so I guess my technique can't be all that bad, but it's not perfect.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

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