I continue to think about your question and just ask myself, if there were only one way to do something in life, why are not all folks doing things the same way?

For a long time power meters did not exists and many folks , like a Dave Scott or Mark Allen did okay.

If power meters were the only way to get better why does not 100% of folks have them?

If having a coach was the only way to get better, why does not 100% of folks have a coach?

If some feel powercranks have made them better, why has not everyone at least gave them an honest try?

I do this sport to stay healthy and have fun with my wife. It makes no difference if I finish first in my AG or last. I just do the best I can do and after that anything else is out of my control. I also know who the great racers are,
and many have no desire to compete.

I just do not see any real value for having a power meter on my bike for what it costs and being a slave to numbers. When I race, I just give it all I have. I feel I have done okay racing by perceived exertion. And for short course racing, if one has left anything on the course, well,. Now for long course racing, some may need something to either hold them back or go harder if they cannot do this via perceived exertion. Great. Lots of different ways to have fun.

We have heard as another example that even if a bike fit was proven to have the maximum power, if one is not comfortable in the position, this fit is not worth much. So for me, longer cranks just feel so much better. Now with that
said, I continue to try different things. If after I race on the 200's in May, things do not seem to work, I will ask what next. I am just hoping that my age has not caught up with my biking, which is one possibility. Or too much training. Or, or, or. This is all just a puzzle and is fun to try finding which pieces fit the best now.

So last thought is you have a fair question on why I have not used a power meter outside. I have the exact same question for everyone who has not tried powercranks. I see these questions exactly the same.

At least I have my cervelo now tweaked with the same fit as my old bike as close as I can get now. Just need to ride it to see how it looks. Then if the rain stops and I get off my butt, will try to do my long ride outside which has been well over a year and gets some data points.

Thanks for engaging in a debate. I never say anything is in stone. I keep thinking about some of these great questions.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, I am with Sciguy. You have no clue how hard you are really pushing without a powermeter. Time is a very bad proxy unlessl the TT is a continuous grade of 8-15%....then fine, go with time and it will be an excellent proxy for power. I believe you power on you velotron, so what's stopping you from dropping a few hundred dollars on a second hand 5 year old powertap wheel on ebay. Then you will know exactly what the various changes (crank length, fixed cranks, powercranks etc) have. By the way, I only train with a powermeter 2x per week, I only check my split times in the pool maybe once per week, and only check my run pace on one (maybe 2) runs per week. The rest of the time, I just train on feel. I don't want to be watching numbers in every workout. You can have teh measuring tools and use them selectively.

To sgy, I can't recall if you got powercranks before or after your powermeter acquisition. if the powermeter came first it would be interesting to see before and after power numbers. In my case, the powermeter came after the powercranks so I have no really good measure if the powercranks resulted in faster biking or the same. I've become a better overall athlete since, I started using powercranks, BUT they also corresponded to to a period in my life from 40-44 till 50-54 where I had way more flexibility in my training versus in my 30's. So really hard to know exactly. Would have been awesome if I had a powermeter in the 2 first years on powercranks to quantify.

All I can say again Dev is at my age, the last thing I worry about is speed! I do NOT want to get hurt. I do NOT want to be anymore OCD than I am.

I never use a time clock for swimming! On my outdoor riding I just start the clock when I start, and stop it when I get home after 4 plus hours. For the run I start the clock when I start and stop it after my 3 loops around 90 minutes of 9 to 10 MPM pace.

It is all just LSD stay in shape training.

As I said, we will look back at these Emails in 5 to 10 years and see how it is going.

I just heard a friend who has raced 13 IM's, Kona last year, around 52, now looks like he has to have a hip replacement and is done. I hear these stories all the time after many folks get into their 50's.
I will continue to just enjoy the ride, and let others focus on risk of speed vs injury.

Just like so many try to tell me I am missing opportunities, I strongly feel the same about powercranks.

.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave you're being idiotic at this point. Using a powermeter will not make you injured. You keep making all kinds of claims but have no data to back them, and they you humble brag about your age and the awesomness of your racing and put down others. Many are trying to be objective and help you, but you selectively pick and choose whatever you want opportunistically to beat others down with. This is why others get frustrated with you.

You would have far more credibility if you considered the following:

1. Back your claims up with quantifiable data. If you don't have data, just claim it is your belief, but then don't try to justify with race results
2. Let your race results stand alone. They don't prove anything about your overall plan....you could be better, you could be worse. Your genetics have a part in them, your training has a part.
3. Don't tell people "wait till you get to my age". Many of us have coached guys a lot older than you, with better results than yours, but that still proves nothing, other than the a combination of the coaching+training plan+athlete+genetics+focus resulted in some outcome. It's an outcome, but still in the N=1 camp
4. Refrain from talking down to others and belittling others that you might pass in racing. They are doing their best. Just because someone is slower than you does not mean they did stupid things. Some of it is genetic, some of it could be bad luck, some of it could be other priorities in life

Don't get so worked up dev. If you just tried to discuss instead of argue with everyone ;-)

I have never ever said any of the stuff you accuse me of. But sorry, so so many take age for granted. I just get sick of younger folks trying to tell older folks what works. And yep, I will continue to say just wait.
This is not talking down to anyone, etc. If is just being honest, so be it.

Data, you can make data look anyway you want and you know that. If facts were facts we would never need 2 lawyers for EVERY legal case.

Who said using a powermeter would get one injured?

Just do not understand why folks have to get emotional? I sure do not beat up on your for your opinions. Do I agree with all of them? Who cares, we each have are own experience.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well I'm 61 so you're obviously not talking to me junior;)

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

You are also not telling folks to do crazy training stuff.

I just never get why some on ST just have to feel that no one else can have an opinion on something. All this prove it with data emotion. Or maybe they do something a little differently than their perfect way. Etc. But then to just
beat up and beat up just says so much about the person. But, ......

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What crazy training stuff? Do you mean using powercranks?

Using a power meter to collect data has nothing to do with crazy training stuff. Doing something other than LSD is not crazy training stuff.

I already responded on the topic earlier, please see my response to your exchange with Sam. He posted a clear, coherent account of why he uses powercranks. You responsed with all of the things Dev mentioned. You put down slower people and younger people. You played the victim, etc etc.

At this point I have to assume you do all this for humour sake. Just to get a laugh out of people and get the ST crowd worked up. If that isn't the case, well...

Dave, I am racing 50-54, and I am open to advice from people 20-24. Just because I am 30 years older does not mean i know it all. A young person can know a lot more about what works for training even for old athletes than an old athlete. You don't have to live it to learn what works. There are N=1,000,000 older athletes than all of us who serve as data points on what works for human physiology and a young person may have studied things a lot more thoroughly than any of us and can provide better guidance. You're not the expert because you happen to be a few years older than a few people around here. You do plenty of self destructive things in training as much as the next guy, so better to stop using your results as justification for being the ultimate authority on some of these topics. There are some things you do that people should look into and have some merit (example: training consistency), but others border on insanity and not something that others should replicate just because you get away with it.

My kid: "I don' like avocados."
Me: "Have you ever tried them?"
My kid: "Daddy, your response is a variant of the ad hominem logical fallacy."

You must be grooming him to join ST...

[/quote]
All this prove it with data emotion.[/quote]

TIme to lock this thread down. for the FREAKING LOVE, LOCK IT DOWN

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_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

TIme to lock this thread down. for the FREAKING LOVE, LOCK IT DOWN


It's just getting good.

So have you stopped doing the workout below as part of your all LSD program?


I must be misunderstanding LSD.

If you're really just interested in health, longevity and enjoying time with your wife I'd recommend quitting racing as well as running in general, walk an hour each day with your wife and swim 3 times per week. It would be way more healthful, vastly cheaper and you'd be spending a huge amount of quality time with your wife. But I doubt you'll do this because I get the impression that you really love crushing your competition especially on the run whether you're willing to admit it or not;)

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Dave has explained that one before. They are only 10min at race pace, too short to count as hard running.

On one hand he says that all he does is LSD type training. On the other hand he does those hard bricks off the bike, and races a lot.

I don't think Dave actually knows what he does.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

LOL....my wife called me on that one this weekend. My son said, "don't you have to do 100 mile ride every weekend to train for an IM?". I said, "I rarely ride longer than 3-4 hours, so max 120K". My wife replies, "Your dad does 3 IM's and two Epicman events per year. He does not need to train long because he's racing long more often than people are training..."

I don't think that is all that uncommon, particularly for people who are self-coached. I could easily tell you what I did in my last couple of workouts. I couldn't tell you what my training program looks like over a month, and especially not over a year. I don't have a program, much of it is based on feel. The only thing I really track is metres and frequency, but to tell you how I get to my total metres for the month? Nope....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

aha, so when he says


the 10 minute race pace run right off the bike doesn't count because it's too short????????


Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5461448#5461448

"I know my bike is not at race pace since I never push anything in training.

Yes I will agree my brick is at race pace. But 10 minutes is nothing. Doing track speed work is what I never do."

Dave I think you have a lot to offer in terms of the older athlete training experience. And if I am smart my training will look more like the above in 15 years than what I am doing now. So thanks for the reminder.

I also hope that in 15 years I don't troll for arguments on the internet. So thanks for that reminder too.

Dave,

Let's do a little math here to add some clarity to the topic of your run program.

You've contended that all your running is LSD but then I read.



If I remember correctly, you've mentioned that the run in the hills is 6.2 miles. Since 6.2 X 3 = 18.6 miles and running 4 X 10 minutes at 6:30 pace carries you 6.15 miles your weekly run total is 24.75 miles of which ~ 25% is faster than threshold. So how does that stack up to "all my running is LSD? It turns out you're actually doing more quality work than the 20% that the polarized model would suggest.


I'd dare say what you're doing is a reasonable program for talented older folks but please don't represent it as purely LSD. If you ever start doing remotely as much quality biking as you do running your bike speed might show a nice improvement.

YMMV,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

up above he said his 90 minute run is at 9-10 m/mile pace. so about 9-10 miles, 3x per week

so a little under the 20% above threshold, not counting races.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly