Surely you can get the same thing with pedalling with one leg?



With powercranks the hip flexors and hamstrings get big aerobic training load and obviously there is zero pounding, so the eccentric work that your quads do while running is not there.

This illustrates a major problem I have here with ST. If you don't agree with someone's comments on a product or practice, discuss it - not the OP. Dave is a really good athlete (Really good: If you check, you'll see that last year he would have been USAT AA in any age group down to 35-39). Based on results, his opinions have merit. Maybe not cause and effect, but successful people are worth listening to - you might learn something. Personal attacks to show how superior you are, shows a genuine lack of class...
BTW, it's been my experience that really good athletes rarely make personal attacks on fellow competitors...
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Remember Luddites are people too...

Powercranks are a great training tool. People who use them know but it is not a wise idea to advertise them here if you aren't ready to read some stupid reactions. Despite using them I have decent bike and run splits and good core strength. Unfortunately they don't help me swim better.
Sam
https://twitter.com/samgyde

Well, this is endorsement will be difficult to argue against.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I know about the negative response to some products. It wasn't the merits of Powercranks that triggered my minor rant. It was the anonymous personal attacks on someone making unpopular comments, or opinions. It seems to be a need by some to build one's self up by tearing others down...

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Remember Luddites are people too...

One thing I would like to add. If you look at guys in 55+ age groups if they are still ripping it up after all these years, they can't be doing totally stupid things and still go fast at that age. Their results may be sub optimized and maybe they can go a touch faster, but if they are not injured and going fast, on the balance they are doing things OK so it is worth watching them and gleaning appropriate messages. I can't say that for fast people under 40 who can do a ton of crazy stupid shit and survive and get faster simply because they are young enough that their bodies will re build from the stupidity.

I'll give you an example. Around 5 years ago, Slowman started pushing Hokas. He is a lifetime runner and to some degree has a number of broken body parts like most do. Back then he was 53 and got a new lease on life as runner. He started pushing these fat boat anchor stupid looking platform shoes. He said this will be the wave of the future for masters guys, especially marathoners and Ironman guys (keeping in mind that Hokas came from the ultramarathon community).

All the old guys say you will break down. If they are still running and especially if they are still running fast, then consider that what they are doing is not so crazy. And you don't even have to run fast to be competitive in the older age groups....you just have to run. Even in 50-54 I ran 3:58 at IM South Africa and had the 12th fastest run split....you just have to run and not walk.

Don't beat up totally on what Dave does. Let's glean if there is something we can benefit from....and yes, I am a powercranks user off and on for a over a decade not as dedicated as Sam or Dave and I run 2500-3000 K per year. I think last year I was under 2000K of powercranks riding, so the bulk of my run training is actually real running. I know Dave is going to tell me I run too much, but I just enjoy real running and being outdoors. I'll be doing hard high RPM 6 min intervals on the powercranks riding home today....off for 60 min real run right now though.

Yeah I don't understand either.

Argument from authority: a logical fallacy. Dave's opinion might have merit, but not solely because he (or Mark Allen, or Dave Scott, or...) gave it.


Successful people are indeed worth listening to, but what they say still has to have merit beyond the mere fact that they said it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yeah, they can. Anecdotes are insufficient to differentiate between achieving success because of or in spite of any activity.

(he says while finishing his second slice of sausage and pepperoni pizza with a Cherry Coke)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I have read so many times the quote I posted at the beginning that just made so much sense. If your legs are tired during the run and it is hard to lift them up, just seems one cannot run fast. And the first time
I tried powercranks years ago, even though I lasted about a minute, I knew they were training a muscle that nothing else I was doing trained. The logic of these just are so so simple to me. But yep, anytime I or anyone
else talks about them, the bullies come out who have NEVER EVER tried them saying how it is impossible they would help ones racing. Most folks I know or heard are using will never talk about them since they know they will get
attacked, or it is one of their secret weapons.

I also believe you do most of your bike training on a trainer? If so, I assume the powercranks are on it. I love following your racing results.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wow, I have no idea I would have been AA that far down.

Yep, I just never understand how Dan lets the few ST bullies go wild with the personal attacks. They have driven off more than a few business owners. They got Frank Day kicked off of ST.

Thanks for the nice words. I do try to pass ideas on to others that might help them race into an older age with decent results.

I also in all my years of athletics never saw the good athletes have to talk with their mouths, their results did all the talking.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Frank drove himself off these boards. He is by far the worst advocate for his product of any business owner I've ever encountered. Check out the cyclingnews forums, same old snake oil sales pitch and harassment of everyone willing to engage with him for a brief period of time.

I don't believe things Dave promotes because I fundamentally think he doesn't understand training methodology. He uses the same theory as frank day "it just has to make sense because it makes sense to me". That is a poor way of determining what to do. Others can back up claims with history or data, or sound science.

Ken, I agree. You should make judgements about what you hear (When I was young - many, many years ago it was called "critical thinking"). However, if you don't agree with what you hear, you shouldn't attack the speaker. I also agree that an appeal to authority is often used in arguments. If the authority has merit, or creditability, the argument is stronger - but still doesn't necessarily make it true.
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Remember Luddites are people too...

I'm still confused. By saying 'your legs are tired during the run and it is hard to lift them up', are you saying that your cadence drops later on in the race? And your perceived limiter to maintaining that cadence is you can't lift your legs fast enough?

Hopefully you're not grouping me in with the bullies, I'm just trying to understand the rational. For me, if I did an exercise that exercised a muscle that was not being exercised when running, my conclusion would be it is a muscle that isn't recruited very much and probably not a limiter for running. Given you knew your limiter (I interpreted it to be cadence), how do you know it was specifically the powercrank that addressed the issue and not just being aware of it and focusing on it in runs (e.g. "I know my cadence drops below 85spm in a hour run, so today I'm going to make sure I run at 90+ spm for the last 20 minutes")?

Nah, we all know who the bullies are on ST.

I am no expect but again believe in the logic of the quote I posted, and have read it many many times. The top runners at the end of a race, like a marathon, still have great leg drive.

So why do bike folks do one legged drills? If one can pull up the leg, rather than being pushed up by the drive leg, seems one gets more power?

So how does one drive up the legs? What muscles? How are they trained? I have had lots of top races come to my house and be humbled when I have them try the powercranks. They all got that the
ability to strongly drive up the legs would help with both biking, and running.

I guess if one legs get tired ones cadence drops. I have been using them for so many years that I never have an issue with tired legs. Now doing lots of hill work, which I do, I also think is important
to great running. And for short stuff, having great lungs which a lot of swimming can give you is important.

I just look at folks like Sam who uses them. He has great results, why is logical to me with him using powercranks, so things like this is why I use them 7 days a week.

Frank has a great program. Give them a try and if you do not like them, send them back and get 100% of your money back. Seems one would have nothing to lose.

I assume that ST is a place folks can share ideas on things that they feel may have worked for them, and might work for others. Just too bad some bullies drive so many folks off of this
place who do not fit into their little box on it has to be their way.

If I were ever to give Frank an input, it would be to ignore the bullies. They won since they got him kicked off of ST. I feel he has lots to offer and I love to debate back and forth with him.
He sure thinks I am totally wrong to go back to longer cranks. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,
Your logic is always interesting. Logically, what goes through your head when you read something like this:

http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/...2219&context=etd

"I just look at folks like Sam who uses them. He has great results, why is logical to me with him using powercranks, so things like this is why I use them 7 days a week. "

Logically, what goes through your head when you look at folks like pretty much everyone else besides Sam who have great results without using powercranks?

Have you tried them?

.,

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yeah but did they have a VO2 max of 80+ before they ever started using PowerCranks like Sam did ..............................................of wait

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

"Have you tried them?"

No. It is on the list of gimmicks I haven't tried as they've been studied and proven to not be helpful. It wouldn't be logical.

I'm assuming your reaction to all the studies that have shown that PCs have no positive effect is that they must be wrong because to you they seem like they should work.

I'm guessing these work best while consuming Boom Nutrition on your Velotron trainer and being cooled by a Spuzzamist, correct? Does it then make you a Bionic Runner?

I own a pair, keep them on my road bike year round. Thank fully I have the ones that lock out because they are hard work to use and it is nice to lock out if I run out of gas. I have some overall hip imbalance issues and the PC has helped me balance out along with TRX, PT, massage, etc. I can also say I am a terrible runner comparatively to my other disciplines. The PC seem to help with *my* personal weaknesses in the run (cadence, drive). Will they work for you? I don't know. Do they seem to help me? Yes I think so. Do I have scientific proof? Nope, haven't done a controlled study. But I can tell you that after competing at swimming for 15 years through college most of what we did didn't have a controlled study. Did everything my coach recommended help me? No. Did they customize based on the athlete? Yep. Saying a product or exercise or whatever is always bad is like saying it is always good, very rare.

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Member of FishTwitch - Arriving to T1 alone and watching you go by on the run.
My Blog: http://poseidom.wordpress.com

one leg drills, hmm, a great many of us do not do one legged drills. you might get more power briefly, until you use up your W, but nothing is free. I get more power by pushing harder as well, again, briefly

what is to lose? how about injuring yourself. doesn't take much and if you want to start doing something you don't need to do to achieve what you want, guess what can happen.

Do you know what the word "irrelevant" means?

Do you realize that your response is a variant of the ad hominem logical fallacy? Instead of addressing the question with facts, you essentially attacked the questioner. Pretty much what you accuse (and often rightly so) many of doing.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I never attack anyone!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep